Laser Cut Parts - Quality Control/Support Issues 

UPDATE: Van’s has listened and is addressing the issues. See video description for a link to their most recent statement/information. I posted an update comment with link immediately after Van’s responded but RU-vid deleted it for some reason.

I got my empennage kit a few months ago. It has some laser cut parts. I can see the entry point of the laser, making less-than-perfect circles. I'm with you and the forum commenters, even to a lay person it looks defective and it's not confidence inspiring. I've finished my vertical stabilizer and am halfway done with my rudder. I have been deburring with a small Scotch Brite wheel on a Dremel to try to remove as little material as possible and sometimes an additional very light pass with the Cleaveland deburring bit on a slow-turning electric screwdriver. I inspect every hole after dimpling and haven't seen any cracks so far. After riveting, I haven't seen any cracks on the surface, but I have no idea what's happening below. Greg is the best and most of the other people I've dealt with have been great, but man there are a few bad apples at Van's. Between the endless waiting, the occasional terrible experiences with customer service, and these quality control issues, I sometimes wonder if I should cut my losses, cancel the other kits, and find myself another hobby. It's gotten so expensive and now with concerns about safety and depreciation. If we'd only started this 5 years ago we'd be so much better off. I hope that Van's can get their s***t together.

Sorry to hear this! I'm a little surprised to hear a kit company would use laser cutting for aluminum parts. The last thing you want is a heat affected, brittle zone around holes and edges. I was just running some thin aluminum on my CNC router and it's a challenge even with a vacuum table to hold the sheet down while cutting. I could see where a laser would be much faster and simpler to cut with no force being applied to the sheet by a bit. I hope you find a solution soon.

I'm glad you posted this Austin. It will help bring awareness to the issue. UPDATE: Vans response to this issue is great news! I hope you get to continue your build soon. I've picked up some great tips from you.

Long ago, (1990) Fokker Aircraft in NL investigated lasercutting of parts, especially rivet holes. It looked very economic. Sectioning the holes, and microscoping them, showed extensive heat affected zones around the holes. This was the method to ruin the tuned properties of the aluminium in a zone of say maximum 1 mm from the edge. So what, 1 mm would you say ? Exactly there resilience is needed for the dimpling. Once a small fatique crack is there, is developed, the total fatigue life is used for 90% and 10% is left over. (Ask every fatique specialist over the world to confirm.) The proper method is: drill pilot hole. drill to larger diameter with sharp dril. Debur. Ream if necessary. Place corrosion inhibiter. Place rivet. Reaming is benificial. Very small cracks of 0,1 mm in the hole-edge by the drilling are removed and the fatigue life becomes still longer. You have the right to cut edges driven by economics. But do not so in aviation. It will backfire.

Dang. Now I’m worried about accepting my QB Fuse in August. Thanks for raising the flag, legitimate concerns.

Yikes - thanks for sharing! I've been stalled for a couple months with family obligations, but have been planning on getting back at it next week. I'm close to being done with the tailcone on my -10, then was going to knock out the elevators so I could finally be done with the empennage and onto the wings. I think I've received parts in the affected timeframe but haven't yet noticed any cracking; I'll certainly be looking over the tailcone closely and will definately not be starting wings until we know more.

They'll never ask me, but my advice to Van's is that they STOP including laser-cut components in all kits going forward, recall ALL laser cut parts, replace them, take the write-off, and chalk it up to a REALLY bad idea. Who signed off on using high-heat to literally burn/melt holes in a low-temp alloy, heat changing the properties of that alloy? I have a -14 Finishing Kit on order, and will NOT take delivery until this issue is resolved. In other words, when the holes are mechanically punched and not burned/melted in.

Thank you for taking the time to make this very informative video. Love your guy’s content! I follow you and many other RV-10 builders too. I’ve been following this topic on VAF. My first RV-10 sub kit is scheduled for crating in mid-July - first part of August timeframe. Hopefully the parts I receive in the empennage/tail sub kit will not have the issues that you and others have noticed. I agree with you that we need kits of Total Performance and not Total Uncertainty. Hopefully Van’s takes care of you and other builder that are experiencing these challenges.

Hi Austin - Just wanted to let you know how much I am enjoying your videos and how much I have learned for you so far. I am also building a 10. I bought the emp kit in 2008 but never found the time to work on it. Now that I am retired, I am starting to work on it and videos like yours are a real motivator. I am doing the build a little different than most. I have taken all the components of the kit to the point of ready to prime and now I am priming the whole kit at once. On this topic, I screwed up the nose ribs of the HS (edge distance) so I needed to buy replacements. I didn't know about the laser cut part problem until I saw your video. I held off on ordering my ribs until I saw the post on Vans site saying they had stopped producing laser cut parts and were no longer shipping laser cut parts. I placed the order after this post and they shipped laser cut parts. I have emailed support twice about this and have gotten no response to either email. I don't know what to make of this. Just an FYI. I also don't understand the testing. Are they trying to justify cracks are okay? Keep up the great work - I always look forward to you posts.

Great job expressing your concern without being totally negative, I'm considering publishing a video but I don't know if I can be as positive as you have been

That's a shame, always thought Vans would stand behind their parts. I ended up building a Zenith and the factory support and service is exceptional.

Thanks for the video Austin. I just finished my tail kit which had a few laser cut parts which seemed to be fine. I just picked up my wing kit in April and noticed quite a few parts laser cut and not in the blue plastic. I will definitely examine these parts more closely but I think I will hold off construction until further guidance is received.

Replace them with punched parts. I wouldn’t be surprised if this ends up in a lawsuit. These kits are incredibly expensive. Good luck man. Hope Van’s does right by you and the rest of the builders!

Great Video! thank you for the detailed info. I am waiting for my RV10 tail/emp kit to start my build. I will definitely keep an eye out for the defective parts. The list from Van's would be helpful for me before I get the kit so I can identify them when I do my inventory.

Great video, all of your concerns are completely valid. We all want to hope for the best but that doesn’t mean we should ignore our immediate worries. One large concern that I believe that may not be getting enough attention is how this may affect the insurability of these airplanes even if replacement parts are provided.

Great video! I have the RV14A empennage kit and got it in 2022... I did have a few parts that were laser cut but none of them looked as bad as the images you showed, so maybe they switched vendors? And the new vendors have better tolerances? Just a thought... It is interesting that the guy that runs things at Vans says one thing, but when you talk with others at the company they say something different. I have had a similar experience with Builder Support. Depending on who you talk to it could be a great experience or a not so nice one. I hope Momma and Baby are doing great!

I feel your pain. I am building a 14 and am just starting my wing. Unfortunately I see some issues with my ribs. My biggest concern is parts that have already closed on the empennage. There is no way I will try and drill out the defective part and replace. I'll just rebuild that component. Good Luck to us all!

The corrosion issue a couple years back and now this. Fifty years doing it you'd think they could make better decisions. Don't let one mistake ruin their entire reputation over such a long haul. It's a blemish, but they're not alone in mistakes.

I agree with you on the builder support, I’ve had less than stellar experiences talking with them, and one in particular seemed somewhat combative. Have you replied to Greg on the forums with this? I wonder if he’d have a view to share about the disconnect, because at worst it would make people think there’s dishonesty with the company, which I’m sure they would never want.

If those holes were laser drilled they look absolutely terrible! Furthermore, as an A&P, the ‘blown’ look of the holes leads me to believe that the dwell time of the hole burning process was excessive. I’ll bet you dimes to dollars the heat treat of the 2024 is completely screwed up and the dimpling process is exceeding the bend allowance for the imposed new heat treat values!

I had no idea any aircraft manufacturer was using laser cut parts. With the rapid heating and cooling of the metal, the jagged cut and just overall inaccuracy of laser cut holes, this sounds like a terrible idea.

My entire RV-8 empennage needs to be replaced.

My RV has been flying over 25-years and has over 3,500 hour on it. I am retired from the aerospace industry as electrical / test engineer, retired DAR, and A&P. When I was working, the aerospace industry started to out-source parts. Every manufacturer that did out-source had some issues. The main problem was out-source without controls to make sure that the part was the way intended. When I am building, I do QC / QA on every item. I have rejected parts that others thought were acceptable. I can make more money but only have one life. If I was in a hurry to fly, I would buy an airplane not build one. My experience with Van's Aircraft over the past 35-years has been that they will make it right for the problems that they created. Unfortunately it will take time. My life experience with people has been that you cannot please all the people all the time.

FYI: I was contacted (via email) by Van's with spreadsheets for my RV-14 (tailwheel) Empennage/Tail Kit and Wing Kit. The spreadsheet includes dates of laser-cut parts. I took delivery of my Empennage/Tail Kit in late January, 2022. Every part has an attached sticker that has the part number, and the date that the part was "put on the shelf" in inventory at Van's. None of my Empennage/Tail Kit part inventory is effected by comparing the date of the part I have, by the date of the laser-cut parts on the spreadsheet. My wing kit is a different story. I have parts of my Wing Kit in my home shop, and part at my airport hangar. I re-inventoried the Wing Kit parts I have in the home shop, and have several laser-cut parts. I will be pursuing replacement of those parts, and all laser-cut parts of the wing kit once I re-inventory the remainder of that kit. Kudos to Van's for their effort, so far, to get ahead of this situation. Replacing parts will take time. Deal with it.

Disappointing. I hope it turns out well for you and Vans and everyone

I’m so glad I didn’t pull the trigger on an RV8 during the pandemic. I really want to build something but I guess it won’t be from Vans until this mess is cleaned up.

How about water jet cutting?

Sounds like Law suit time. Need to a hardness test (Rockwell) on the metal.

How do you know what is laser cut/how do you tell/so far my kit is perfect

Did they say cracking is good or crack is good, because I don't think either one is good. All models after 2020 are going to suspect. And you won't be able to give an RV 12 away, my thoughts. I'm glad my model was certified in 2002, back when Vans built their parts in house.

I used to work at various Airbus plants as a designer as well as quality control. The one thing I'm wondering about is: How can Van's not keep track of where each manufactured part came from and where it went? As soon as you have identified a supplier to be unreliable all stock delivered by this supplier must be marked red! None of those parts can be allowed to find their way into a flying aircraft ever! No amount of quality control can fix a faulty production process, meaning the faulty process must be changed and improved until quality is demonstrated to be reliably acceptable. Only at this point can this supplier be allowed to deliver parts again. I know, this is "Experimental" territory, but how would the home-builder community react when Van's planes start dropping out of the sky for no other reason than some home-builders overlooked a crack in a random vital part sourced from some random "bad batch" that no one felt responsible taking care of and clearing it out of the shelves?? A single bad part can be enough to cause death.

I won't be surprised if this is the end for Van's. They're financially broke ; have a parts problem ; are damaging their reputation with builders by not dealing to correct issues responsibly & many aircraft companies both certified & hombuilt have gone in the past even in better times than we face today rising inflation & supply chain issues. I would not put down a deposit now & feel sad for the builders & a once great company.

Ill bet you van is furious with his engineers. Dont use laser cut parts. Especially rivet holes,

It's a shame the audio is so bad in this.

Cracks can be Avoided by preheating the sheet metal and burnishing the holes. I'm a retired A & P mechanic, 50 + years experience. Military and civil aircraft , large and. small. The machine is called a coin dimpler. It both pre-heates and dimples it one operation . Type of metal alloy , hardness , thickness and size of holes are all factors in the process. It's tricky to set up properly , but it can be done by a competent technician. Good luck finding one !!

Van’s needs to jump on this like a chicken on a June bug and all departments need to be on the same page. Issues like this can take a company from first to bankruptcy based solely on the response. Most of their customers are financially solid and well connected with the world. Can you imagine how fast this information will spread at Airventure next week? I was ready to order a 14 this week and this first piece of information totally stopped me in my tracks. Even the response will set builders of future kits back significantly, as they “fix” the current issues parts will be robbed from future production so obviously future order fulfillment will be in competition with existing customers. I expect Van’s sales at OSH to fall off a cliff. They better have a big savings buffer, if they are cash flowing the company there could be real problems. I smell a class action lawsuit if they don’t get this right.

Now we know you will not be flying a Vans.

Although your post does ramble and does seem like a rant, the issue is well known. Whether these parts are Outsourced for production or created In House. Parts that fail, what proper parts prep IS and the effective interaction of Tech Support says something more than "Just build it!" from years past. Stress relief, riser removal and use of reams vs. dual fluke drill bits. Shearing and punching of holes regardless of being within 0.0001" of perfection on an 0.016 or 0.020 skin will remain an issue. One person's DeBurr "Good Enough" is another's Not Enough yet. You were polite enough not to mention the name of the individual who said your less than acceptable parts would be replaced by VANS. I have no idea who does QC at Vans on production parts sold to builders.

Cracks grow ever so slowly in the invisible length range and so these aircraft will have thousands of cracks you wont see for a long time. The process used is wrong. Sounds like their engineers are categorising parts as okay based on the stress in those parts in service making the crack growth time to critical crack length being linger than the service life of the aircraft. I would not have confidence in such a calculation. There are so many assumptions made about things not in their control. That they went down this path of using this process shows you they are not competent engineers.

By the way you can use my comments but not my name....

send the whole kit back get your money back if safety is a joke to them they don't get your money

RIP Vans Aircraft

"Cracks are bad." You bet they are! You need to be able to build a crack free aircraft. Fly it for twenty years. And still have no cracks. Why? Because small cracks will ALWAS turn into big cracks if the part gets enough use. Big cracks turn into a scrapped part. Or worse, a scrapped aircraft. Or worse, a scrapped life or two. Vans must recall all laser cut parts and replace them with non-laser cut parts. If they don't, Vans and their customers will be paying (one way or another) for decades to come. Why isn't the FAA already involved?

Price drop on those birds. 50% easily drop on price.

The Vans name will be tainted forever now! Remember when you are happy with a product you tell a few people, when you are unhappy about a product you’ll tell a LOT of people!

So, don't dimple your skins... Rivets are beautiful, have a look at a Seversky P-35... Lose 3-4 kts. No Problem.