Flaws? which flaws? I think rivals 1 struck perfection in that it feels like melee but its moves are more animated/versatile. Rivals 2 will have a hard time because of its character scaling, but If it gets all other things right I think it will become a special game just like rivals 1. Edit: an alright game at max. It's would be impossible to overcome rivals 1 in my opinion.
@@0therwisesleep522 It's a HUGE improvement. I could barley play NASB1. I will say don't bother unless you're on PC though cuz the switch version is still pretty rough
Leffen made a fantastic point about moves being "broken" or not, and it's when he said it's far more important how the moves FEEL, and how the overall game FEELS. If something is "fair" but people hate playing against it--why on earth would we keep it in the game? Conversely, if something is broken, but people enjoy both using and playing against it, why would we bother removing it? The NUMBER ONE PRIORITY in any game is whether or not it's FUN. I'm very excited about Rivals, as it looks like they have the right attitude about making a competitive platformer that is also enjoyable in all phases
I'm not sure if they will change how hitfall works just because it's so integral to Rivals's identity. In order to deal with how it interacts with shields I could see them increasing shieldstun to compensate, or *maybe* have a hitfall lockout so you can't hitfall until you've been out of shield for (say) 15 frames or something. Although, given how you can cancel wavedashes with moves, maybe just crank the shield stun up universally might be the go. They could end up with moves being as + as a more traditional fighting game like Street Fighter with out of shield options as strong as these. Or they could have a wavedash cancel lockout similar to the above hitfall lockout? Having lockout windows for shield might overly confuse things, though. As long as no move is + enough to block string into grab, having more positive on shield moves can also make for more complex offense and could deal with these strong OOS options. I absolutely agree with melee's success as a competitive game being in part due to how fun it is to fight the top tiers. I'm a falcon main, so falco is my hardest matchup, but it's also one of my favourites, just because comboing him is so fun.
Leff is defo right about aerial oos. Its gonna be a problem, at least eventually, if it isn't changed. My solution would be, when jumping out of shield, your jumpsquat is a couple of frames longer than normal e.g. 2 or 3 extra frames. This will make aerial oos slower without having to mess with normal aerials. It wouldn't affect wavedash oos either since you can wavedash out of your jumpsquat anyway. I think Shield stun should prob be increased as well just to be sure shield isn't super strong. With what he was saying in the vid, maybe parry oos should also have a little more startup than raw parry? Idk tho, I'm just spitballing lol
If anything is a problem with this game, the devs 100% fix it, they’re extremely good about that kind of stuff and actually listen to their community/fans 🤯
I havent played rivals 1 but i played alot of smash flash 2 and still play melee, and this game looks damn fun, SSF2 plays like melee without wavedashes or L cancelling (imo) and i definitely will be trying out RoA 2 when it drops
I dont think the grounded moves crossing up is bad. Its the same principle as crossing up with an ambiguous jump. Id be down for moves with more pushback tho.
I really don't think they should make you unable to hitfall "too early" or something cause that's bound to feel jank (I think the idea of just making sure some moves don't come out too quick is best) but everything else Leffen said makes a lot of sense. I liked hearing about the 'everything combos' vs 'most moves are situational' comparison.
hitfall on shield with ultimate parry system (maybe with existing rivals 2 parry button(, but giving you a few inv frames so you can hitfall punish them out of shield, but its a 50/50 because if you predict they will parry, and bait it you can punish them. maybe a good idea and then you can keep the hitfalling?
I like the suggestion of a slower shielddrop animation, more hitstun on shield, or anything that enforces holding block as a bad position to be in. The parry is probably fine (though it's always irritated me because I'm predictable) since that's a risky counter-attack; the shield should be made the "slow but safe" option. also, this would bring blockstrings to platform fighters, which is an added benefit. it just looks cool as hell to dance on somebody when you're applying pressure. ...that being said, i'm doggy doodoo ass at every fighting game, so don't take my word as well-informed. i haven't even considered how this is supposed to work with shield-break.
there might be enough effects/camera movement as it is, but yeah it absolutely adds a lot of character when a game acknowledges hype moments. i always thought the one thing that killed momentum in RoA 1 was just the fact that it was so quiet and static, like it had the purple galaxy but that just wasn't enough. i could be bouncing someone across the screen and kill them in a tight recovery intercept, but when there's no real impact it still feels like cheese. ...again, i'll counter my own argument by saying Ultimate almost does it too much. i feel like the crowd cheers for absolutely NOTHING in smUsh. i trust Dan to make his game tbh; the ludwig stream really opened my eyes for the potential of this game to break into the mainstream
Brawl taught us what happens when shield stun is too low. Overwhelming gameplans start revolving around run up > shield and attacking shield becomes disadvantageous in almost all scenarios.
Nerfing hit fall is the worst way to go about nerfing shielding. I you allow the player to hit fall pressure on block it would incentivise parrying like in rivals 1
I cut the video with Twitch's highlight feature which frequently isn't perfect with the cuts it makes. I don't have to render the whole video again doing it like this though, unlike using my editing software. Seems like the rest of the video is fine thankfully, but I'm only trying to save time due to focusing on Leffen's main channel videos that will be coming out for Rivals 2 and Project L - Tirq
If they make true cc stronger they should make it animate like the character is blocking Damn yeah hit fall seems like such a huge buff to out of shields aerials.. Tbh I've always hated hitfall Wavedash oos is probably fine because of the extra frames. You can call it out with an attack or wavedash the opposite direction
@@rj27basketball there’s nuance to aerials based on when you start them and when you hit them that hit fall lets you ignore in many situations. Also I don’t like having to move my fingers that much It’s a great mechanic, just one that for me I don’t enjoy, and also it reduces other things that I do enjoy
You say immediate hit falling is broken and you gave example that nair oos is broken melee but fail explain why. You just say immediate hit falling is broken because another move is broken in melee. I can kind of understand. It will make characters with better frame data oos better than others because these characters can get more punishes, but the thing is this is every smash game. Characters with better punishes out of blocking are Better characters in every smash game, no that's just a thing in every fighting game.
What do you think of them leaving in shield, but getting rid of grab? I feel like that would put more of an emphasis on the perfect shield and parry mechanic. If they put Clairen back in, that would keep her command grab being very unique like in rivals one, while also getting rid of how broken shield grab seems to be? (Which is what I'm understanding from watching this video, I could be wrong though)
If grab is taken out, shield would be broken because grab is the natural counter to shield… Did you watch the video? The problem is OOS option like wavedash and aerial is too good due to input buffer and hit fall.
Attack beat Grab beat Shield (beat attack) It's like the most basic rock paper cisor of fighting game, and you'd like to get rid of one of the compenent. That'd make the shield nearly unbeatable because, why would you try to perfect shield / parry if in any case the oppenent cannot "counter" your shield. It becomes a super safe option Getting rid of shield """"""could""""""" work tho, because that mean the rock paper could work like : Attack beat Grab beat Parry (beat Attack)
I feel like Rivals 1 was made to give an alternative game to melee players while Rivals 2 is flat out trying to replace it. It's not a criticism, melee growth stagnated without first-party support, and Nintendo doesn't deserve the community.
No shields are great. They add an immense amount of depth to all offensive and defensive interactions with one mechanic. It’s just that they need to be balanced properly around all the other mechanics. Leffen’s right they hitfalling oos probably needs to be nerfed but that doesn’t mean that shield as a whole isn’t an incredibly interesting mechanic
Masher detected. In all seriousness, shields make the neutral way more nuanced and enforces know thoughtful gameplay instead of just holding in. Every top rivals player agrees the addition of shield is amazing
hitfall is oof, makes the game look jank and is tedious as fuck to implement. It also trivializes managing your momentum during a combo. The only upside was "hey this advanced tech isn't in melee isn't it cool we have something new?", but it doesn't improve the game.
