Libertarian Caller: Minimum Wage, Child Labor Laws Fault of Freedom-Hating Americans! 

🤣🤣🤣 “I’m not much of a constitution guy, I stopped at the declaration of independence for my knowledge of American government”

Followed by: *repeats the question back to Sam before saying libertarians debate things*

I've just discovered these and have been bingeing them

Majority report has a playlist with the libertarians almost 200 videos. So it's almost 80 hours of these kind of content.

@@herethere2091 That's more reading than most Libertardians or Coverservatards or Q- Anoidiots have done.

Well, yes, they are exercising their freedom. The freedom to use a 2006 track phone.

@@jonathanwpressman They should switch to Morse code.

@@PR--un4ub you win

12:12 Libertarian: "No, I'm NOT buying time while I ignore your last point and think of my next irrelevant rhetorical question. It's that you haven't given me time to speak, and also my phone connection.

"Sorry I'm in a snowstorm in the middle of Antarctica, can we move on to the next point?"

I agree ! And we see in the news all the time that not only do they stiil live in poverty but they die by the hundreds do to unsafe working conditions !!

+Benjamin S it's both

Michelle Size It's not just developing nations. This is true in Australia where we have strong oh&s regulations that are constantly ignored due to unrealistic productivity targets devised by management. I'd bet the same is true in every country, just not to the same degree as the developing world.

Yes the two go hand in hand

Well, developing countries and the sates of florida and texas

Everything is a "rabbit hole" with these clowns. The ideological equivalent of vaporware

Libertarianism is all encompassing, except for this situation, this situation, this situation....

Yes. That is, in a nutshell, what they believe. That the government should be nothing but a facilitator for private enterprise, as though the public good either doesn't exist or encompasses the exact same thing as the private sector. But what protections are there for the powerless, the ones that don't have the resources to wield government influence to facilitate their business interests? "Let them find ways to get richer, or starve."

+We Deserve Better That is exactly how Marx described the nature of capitalist state, and the nature of any state (the supremacy of the ruling class over the others, in our case, the capitalists).

+Steve G So I guess they hate freedom then ? hahahaha

Mike Lopez If freedom gets in their way to make more money, Yeah!

You know regular people can sign contracts too, right? Like if you and I have a contract between us, govt would be responsible for enforcing said agreement, should one of us breach it

You know whose thinking these guys remind me of? Hermann Goering.

That’s basically all libertarianism is

And that, in a nutshell, is libertarian ideology. The most important thing in the world is freedom, regardless of the consequences or problems that arise. As long as people are "free," it doesn't matter if we love in a barbaric shithole apocalyptic world governed by aristocracy. Freedom!

Right, but what if what you determine "whats best for society" involves force? involves forcing people to comply, stealing from them, and if they don't comply, they get thrown in jail. I think the libertarian ideology - that many call barbaric, "not caring about whats best for people" - is honestly no different than liberal, or socialist ideologies which also involves just as barbaric consequences.

Komighty1 Taxation isn't force, if by that you mean unconsented. You don't explicitly consent to pay when you order food from a restaurant, but it's assumed you know how restaurants work, and thereby implicitly consent. Likewise, it's assumed you understand societal customs, one of which is that living in a country (and using its tax-funded services no less) implies you consent to certain reasonable rules, like certain forms of taxation. Also, if taxation were force, it would still be laughable to call it barbaric. Losing a tiny portion of your income in a way that helps you and all of society (for legitimate programs), oh the barbarism!

Mablak welll I'm not talking about concrete examples, I was talking about the basis of the ideology, where you call the free market "barbarism". How is it not barbaric that there is an involuntary system, where you are forced to comply - otherwise thrown in jail. What is barbaric about the free market? explain. If you're talking about crony capitalism, ofcourse its barbaric - thats exactly why the core ideology of libertarianism is freedom - where nobody has an unfair advantage by buying off politicians, and fixing the game. What is barbaric about that?

Komighty1 As I just explained, taxation isn't by and large involuntary. Although I didn't make any claim about the free market being barbaric, yes, it would be barbaric to allow millions of people to go hungry by cutting off our SNAP supply, to allow employers to pay slave wages, to allow child labor, to let thousands of people die from preventable diseases due to lack of health insurance, the list goes on. This would happen in laissez-faire, whether that's 'crony capitalism' or not.

they would only want the states power to protect their own interests and wealth.

Libertarians believe that if their dystopian ideas materialized that they would somehow be kings instead of peasants.

Because libertarianism is only a concept and can never be used for practical purposes.

The literal " No not like that" argument. LOL

There was a libertarian presidential candidate years ago who lost it when Sam kept asking him real world questions about who enforces property deeds and contracts. He screamed: "That's the beauty of my system Sam! We don't have all the answers! YOU, on the other hand, want to centrally plan liberty!" He later hung up when Sam basically agreed with a basic tenet of the US tax system.

@@Seattle-2017 Yes, cuz its best not to plan things and leave them to chance... certainly that was Madison's thinking 🙄

​@@Cussy69_420 "If you don't pay your taxes, you should be penalized, and if you still refuse, you should ultimately go to jail."

Ayn Rand: Significant only in her Insignificance.

I don’t think you know what fan fiction is.

Honey, I am quoting you on my Facebook page. Brilliantly stated!

@@evilsWa Sounds like you don't understand his point.

Oh, but Rand would not have accepted the term 'libertarian', for herself. She was a believer that one's success, among state and corporate actors as well as individual persons, indicated a superiority of virtue, which legitimized power and control of one over the other. Rand called her philosophy, objectivism. Most American self professed 'libertarians', most especially observed in those running for office, subscribe to Rand's theory, but they prefer the term 'libertarian', because it sells better.

omfg i read that as willy wonka!

tph2010 "Come with me And you'll be In a world of pure deregulation..."

@@SpoopySquid 😂😂

If you want to seeee compromise, simply have the market do it! Anything you want, buy it! Want to own the world? We suh-pply it!

There is no life I know to compare to pure deregulation. Living here ...you'll defy...taxation. i know I'm years late, but i just had to comment.

That's what Matt Dilahunty did so well though at The Atheist Experience: he would put them on hold when the callers went ape shit so they were muted, so he could finally make his point before letting them speak again... if not every phone call ends up as a gish gallop rant by the callers of utter lunacy.

That's all the camps that are working together in the Right Wing Coalition including Christian Fundamentalists.

It must be if they consistently make assholes of themselves like this.

baserocklove How are Libertarians stupid?

baserocklove Could not write a better summary of libertarianism than that.... I'm going to have to plagiarize you.....:)

I want to add to base's testimony. This caller began by saying that "the minimum wage is a freedom issue, not an issue of what works best for everyone." Ok. A freedom issue. Supposing, in a Libertarian world, Wal-Mart (just as an example of a giant superstore) opens a store in a small town, and they say "We're only going to pay our workers $4 an hour, but because of this, our products will be really cheap, 40% cheaper than in comparable smaller stores. You're a rug store owner in town, and you want to pay your employees $7 an hour, which you always have (adjusted for inflation), but you no longer can do this because no one will buy your rugs at the price you have to charge to employ your laborers, when they can buy similar rugs at Wal-Mart for 40% cheaper. Town loyalty only goes so far. So, to drop your prices that far, you're essentially forced to pay only $4 an hour, probably less (because Wal-Mart can still massively out-advertise you and take away most of your business, since they're so big). Or you could throw away your life's experience at selling rugs to sell a different product that has more of a market...oh, wait, Wal-Mart sells just about every product and they're ALWAYS going to sell them cheaper. You could move to a different town...oh wait, there's a Wal-Mart in every town, or one could move into your new town 3 months after you move there, and you have the same problem. If you are a worker in this town, someone who is used to making $7 an hour at the rug store, there is now no where to go in order to fulfill that voluntary $7 contract, since no one in town is hiring for that wage (Wal-Mart is crushing all of the small businesses). You can't get a higher wage at the rug store, because they have razor thin margins, and you won't get a higher wage at Wal-Mart, because they look around and say "someone is desperate enough to work for $4--someone in this town is in danger of starving if they don't get work, and $4 is better than nothing, so we'll hire those people." And then, on top of having to take a $4 an hour job, you also have to deal with the externalities of an impoverished, desperate town--a rise in crime, a potential rise in disease, the loss of property values, decaying schools, etc. And private charities, etc., will suffer because the overall town economy is depressed, so those who need the most aid will be shut out unless people who are barely making anything themselves are able to help. And where will people most likely shop? Wal-Mart, because while the rug store has lowered their prices enough to be somewhat competitive, the prices are still cheaper at Wal-Mart, and people don't have excess money to throw around. So, let's recap. Freedom. Wal-Mart gets the freedom to set whatever wages THEY want. Their workers are "free" to agree to that contract, though they really have no choice because no one is hiring for better wages, and starvation is not a real choice. So they're basically forced to work there. The citizens are forced to incur the problems that happen to their town because of the economy. The rug store is forced to lower its wages and its prices. Consumers aren't forced, but are heavily incentivized to shop at Wal-Mart, which enables this entire vicious cycle. What a lot of freedom this town has! Oh, but right, someone could just decide to start up a company in their garage and instantly out-compete Wal-Mart in the free market. Doug down the street is really going to be the next Steve Jobs and revolutionize the industry. It only happens about 0.0001% of the time, but yeah, it theoretically could, so that's all Libertarianism needs. It is a good thing the caller doesn't value "what works best for everyone," because it seems that this scenario only works best for the owners of Wal-Mart. And, BTW, in none of this example did the Big Bad Federal Government do anything to interfere with this scenario. Any company could get big enough, just by the machinations of capitalism, to be able to come into and bully a town like this.

baserocklove "They endorse as "more moral" a country with absolutely zero social safety" it doesn't endorse having a publicly financed safety net "Worst of all is the is the opposition to environmental oversight because it is ALWAYS more profitable to create more waste and more greenhouse emissions " they want hire private groups to prevent damage to the environment " I mean ffs it's an ideology when taken to logical conclusion (and argued in favor of by several prominent libertarians I might add) would have to permit slavery if that was the voting will of the state" could you name those libertarians? by the way sounded like a libertarian until they got to workplace safety laws maybe he's a republican with libertarian leaning

Most jobs today pay more than the minimum wage, some a lot more. Why do companies pay more than what is required by law? Employers compete for talent and will pay an employee much more than the minimum wage based off that persons value to the company.

I absolutely agree with you, OP, and if you aren't familiar with the general Marxist analysis on this topic, you should look into it, because you seem to already have a basic understanding and agreement with it. Now, understand that Marx's critique of capitalist economy is separate from his advocacy of communism. So, one can agree with Marx in his analysis of how capitalism works, without necessarily agreeing with Marx on what should replace it. I personally am a socialist, but I'm just saying, one doesn't have to be a socialist to appreciate the marxist analysis of this topic. I encourage you to investigate this.

Your deduction is indeed correct. It's the same reason Las Vegas Casinos are multi-million dollar operations despite the fact that the odds of any one bet are nearly even; the employer can outlive you in the context of a negotiation. I'm under the impression that libertarians vastly overestimate their own intelligence and charisma, that they'd be able to forge their own glorious future if the nanny-state would just piss off, that they'd do better without a floor, presumably that they'd be able to benefit from schmucks dumber than them. I believe this fundamental misapprehension leads them to think minimum wage does more harm than good.

Your deduction is indeed correct. It's the same reason Las Vegas Casinos are multi-million dollar operations despite the fact that the odds of any one bet are nearly even; the employer can outlive you in the context of a negotiation. I'm under the impression that libertarians vastly overestimate their own intelligence and charisma, that they'd be able to forge their own glorious future if the nanny-state would just piss off, that they'd do better without a floor, presumably that they'd be able to benefit from schmucks dumber than them. I believe this fundamental misapprehension leads them to think minimum wage does more harm than good.

"Now, understand that Marx's critique of capitalist economy is separate from his advocacy of communism." That's what I always try to tell people whenever I invoke Marx into these sort of conversations, they think I'm a Communist. I wouldn't even say I'm a Marxist, but some of his writings do apply to our society as well as in conversations like the ones which were engaging, boss and worker relationship. He bases his theories off of historical materialism and he's a great historian. What does bother me about Marx is when he tries to predict the future with out much evidence to back up what he says will happen to make a convincing argument, i.e. Communism.

If its not a legal document, how do you distinguish it from the legal implications? How are other laws past by congress considered legal documents and this one isnt? How is declaring yourself independent from a country not a legal declaration? How is changing the law not legal in nature? And why did they wait for more than a year after the war had begun to declare war? What were they doing the year before, just letting themselves get shot?

It’s a legal document. This does not mean it’s not a declaration of war. It wouldn’t work as a declaration of war if there was no official body of power to enforce it as being legal. This happened when the original Americans in spirit (not in physical presence) guess we can call them the original patriots, backed the document with force and made the other countries recognize us as a body of power, that’s when it gained its legal status. Until then, yeah, it was a declaration of war.

@@personalemail1632 It isn't a legal document. It is a letter of complaint to parliament. That is all.

@@personalemail1632 he meant, it's not our core document

hmasterpiece85 they had to make their own phone cause Lord Homunculus has the rights to all existing phones.

Noticed that too. This guy though only said it at the start of the conversation unless I missed it. Maybe libertarians buy the equipment from the same brand. That imposes no minimum standards on the components used?

@@michaelk.jensen1611 definitely squeezes their employees

@@michaelk.jensen1611 Nah. He lied and used the get out of jail free of his phone conveniently being “all static” excuse when Sam destroyed his argument about safety laws when the typical libertarian argument falls apart when they’re reminded there’s many important laws and regulations with things like OSHA and how you can’t sue some company after arguing for deregulation of the laws that were protecting you in the first place

@@mindhackz yeah but I think its funnier that the libertarians are putting their "business"in telephony companies that are exempt from these rules and are using the" superior" method of free market economics and free competition without being "hampered' by regulations that" keeps out innovation " and that this" free" competition absolutely Will bring the Best products. And Thats why they constantly have these static noise and connection fallouts from these free competing innovating companies that gives the Best products for their consumers.....

Road? What's a road? I'm a libertarian!

*extreme libertarian voice* where we're going, we don't need roads

...uh the road of logical reasoning?

judyleasugar97 Why though? So they can get jobs? The jobs that are lacking right now? Getting educated, especially after high school, is at this point a waste of money.

Apollo you people are as dumb as shit

George kush, I'm a leftist.

apollo if you think education is expensive, try ignorance...

@@ryleexiii1252 This is a result of neoliberal and right wing destruction cast upon society and its economy. Children *are* supposed to be studying, for the economy as well as their quality as members of society. What children are supposed to do doesn't change because plutocratic policy making is sending the economy down the drain one boatload at a time.

A no brainer, so to speak!.

All you really have to do to defeat a Libertarian is stand back, let them talk, and watch themselves thrash blindly about until they kick themselves in their own ass.

They are in an elevator, going through a tunnel... speak up!

Is "getting your 'chimney' cleaned" a euphemism for something else?

dffykvn They are against age of consent laws? Really? This makes no sense. Do they admit to this in public? They must be nuts. Surely Rand Paul, the guru of wisdom is not pro molester.

dffykvn Against the against age of consent laws?

***** Unless you're actually getting your chimney cleaned.

It's not that he/libertarians want that per se, it's that the consequences of a world in which their ideology was in place would unavoidably create an incredibly backwards and unequal society of basically lords and serfs. They are just oblivious to that reality, or they acknowledge it but think they'll be one of the lords.

Yeah, he'd probably be somewhere in the Untouchables region lol.

Most ppl are libertarians in their personal lives, they want freedom for themselves, but they want to impose upon other ppl because they are a hypocrite

kathy kelly Libertarianism isn't about liberty in people's personal lives. This is one of Libertardianism's greasiest tricks: take common values, and pretend that they're somehow "Libertarian". Next you'll be claiming that breathing air is "Libertarian".

devourerofbabies Well, the etymology of libertarian is simply free will. But libertarian philosophy, while a young discipline has always focused on common sense principles that most ppl agree with and tried to universalize them across society.

kathy kelly I'm clearly talking about the modern American Libertarian movement, not the original etymology.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for rich white men only! Slave owners and institutionalised hyper- segregation are the hallmarks of American manifest destiny, whose cousin, Zionism, have a lot in common by the way. Bigot-laced xenophobic exceptionalism is what truly makes the US great!

lol this is where this argument falls apart

They literally do feel this way. They believe that "since the employer comes up with the innovation to start the business, and takes the risk, he deserves all of the advantages and the employee deserves nothing.

Holy shit. Excellent observation.

Or slavery

“Contract killers shouldn’t have the government interfering with their hit!”

then they'd have to talk the language of a 3 year old it's MINE.....ALL MINE i WON'T share

Nope,not even one!.

_Is there even one fucking libertarian who can be intellectually honest? Just one. One._ Since Libertarianism is a fundamentally dishonest ideology, the answer is NO.

devourerofbabies Hell, I'd settle for one who can con hard enough to at least kind of sound intellectually honest, but nah, most of them just present as three year olds swilling booze.

***** _most of them just present as three year olds swilling booze._ I am going to steal this line from you.

Yes it’s state by state in Illinois you have to be 15 1/2 and get a work permit from school . At 16 you are free to work as you please

some believe we shouldn't have social security either. you have no idea how dump some Americans are.