Looking at the spindle from the 7000.00 mistake 10EE 

There have been a quite a few situations where I have wished something as valuable as that spindle would drop out of the sky. I don't think you would find too many welders in a Monarch assembly room. A fundamental principle learned by medical practitioners - "First do no harm" is very applicable here.

Many years of of highly skilled problem solving experience mixed with a head full of common sense will solve most problems in that persons field of expertise. Judging by what I see here Steve has both of those very rare qualities.

Just making a comment to help the algorithm mostly. I think you have as good a plan as you can with the machines and tooling that you have shown or mentioned. Others might do it differently but there is no guarantee that their result would be better.

Your plan to make a sleeve for he missing part of the shaft is the first thing that came into my mind when you pointed out the difference. This will work. I don't need to reemphasize the care needed. You have the right objectives IMHO

Hi Steve, Many good comments here, so I will just say, good luck. I'm enjoying seeing how you are bringing back your 7,000.00 dollar paperweight into a lathe again,

thanks Steve I'm glad you're taking the time and effort to show us and explain everything.

I’m no expert, but a sleeve was my first thought. As long as you keep the sleeve from spinning it should work fine.Good luck!

As requested I wish you luck. Thanks for the video.

Something for you to consider, Sir. Instead of red loctite, consider using green loctite sleeve retainer. And, if you have the wall thickness, perhaps consider an ever so slight “scratch” thread on the inner diameter to give the loctite something to further lock into… maybe a 24 tpi. Just my first thoughts without the part in hand. Looking forward to seeing Bob making chips.

I back your plan entirely Steve. If it ever needed removing , a little heat would break the bond of the loctite and expand the ring a little so I don't forsee any galling issues. Heck if it needed to come off again you could simply grind partway through the sleeve and slip it off with ease.

I think you are spot on, but I'm not a machinist, i'm a welder/fabricator, and i love your channel.

Steve, Nice detailed review. I'm in agreement with the fitted sleeve approach. Thanks for explaining the pros and cons of the options. 👍👍

Personally, I’d make the sleeve a snug fit in the bearing and leave a little wiggle room between shaft and sleeve, maybe half a thou? Use the bearing to locate the sleeve in relation to the shaft and use Loctite 648 to glue to sleeve in place (I believe that’s the number for the bearing retaining compound. Stuff is super tough) It would allow a few tenths of misalignment to compensate for any variation in the sleeve itself, and should provide excellent concentricity and support the bearing very well. Just a thought. Keep up the good work!

Looking forward to the next episode. Thank you.

I totally agree with your solution with the equipment you have, as it's only a support for the bearing.

Hang in there buddy! The journey is beginning to get interesting. Thanks for the look.

Good luck! I think it's a great idea and I can't wait to see the results.

love your problem solving

Hi Steve I'm a new subscriber and an older guy like you. I'm sorry to hear about your heart problems but I'm glad your ok and working to fix this awesome Monarch lathe. It is a great piece of equipment and worth fixing. I'm rooting for you buddy I was a millwright worked on rebuilding huge sintering furnaces and CNC machines. I was also a welder/fabricator designed some automation built a few magnesium guitars also did HVAC industrial,commercial and ,residential work for many years as well. My personal machines are really really old and not nearly as nice but I couldn't get along without them. I'm going to watch along and root for you every step of the way as you work on this. I'm looking at the original spindle laid out on the table and I'm looking at that groove there where the rear spindle bearings go. I'm wondering if that small section of the spindle is actually a sleeve that was installed using dry ice to shrink the spindle enough to get it to slide on and interference fit to the spindle. You could use dry ice on the new spindle itself to shrink it and slide that new sleeve on over it I have done this to cool down shafts to get new bearings to slide on over shafts many times. You could also heat the sleeve and slide it on it only needs to be 250 to 300 deg to get it to expand enough to slide over and fit tight. Stainless can get weird and warpy when heated but it may remain stable at 300 deg. when it shrinks as it cools it should be fine as it will follow the form of the spindle o.d. and be ok.

The Double E headstock was hand scraped to 50 millionth to the bed. I don't remember what the spindle run out was, but all other Monarch lathes were 2 tenths. As a former Monarch Service Rep. I worked primarily on CNC lathes, but that was 30 years ago. We did warm the spindle bearing in an oven prior to intalling them onto a spindle. A few times out in the field I used warm oil to heat tbe bearings, usually to around 120 degrees as I recall.

always great watching your videos Steve........wish I could stop by one day, but this old man can 't afford the gas.....best wishes from Central Florida, Paul

Agree that making a bushing to make up the need space is the safest way to go. Spray welding or any solution that would require heating the spindle may cause warping. Your comment about switching to bronze for the busing rather than SS looks like a very good idea to me...after all, the spindle shaft is still supporting most of the load with the bushing only making up the 3/8" at the back.

I am a machine design engineer with experience on precision spindles. If anything close to 50 millionths is needed, the sleeve should be shrunk in place. If heat warps it, the journal will true it back up. BUT, the sleeve OD has to be oversize and ground to size concentric with the spindle. Otherwise, there will be excessive runout, maybe half a thou. If heating the ring is too scary, freeze the journal and let it expand to give the interference fit between it and the sleeve. If I didn't have the ability to grind in place, I would sub that operation out.

Good stuff,Steve.

I think you'll be allright there with what your thinking. But I like Don's approach too. I just wouldn't be using a torch or high temps. I'd go with 300° deg in the oven, and freeze the spindle before assembly... with all your sizing for that in mind. The great thing about what you're doing is if you mess it up, you can split the ring and remove it for a do over. Even if you get it all together and had to outsource a lil grind job for the OD finish it wouldn't eat you. looking forward to the video's there. Thanks for sharing

I watched this last night on a computer with no account or commentability. Ain't THAT a word! The sleeve is Grade-A. You can back up and punt if you need to. Keep on quizzing the hermetic ladies man. It won't accomplish much but it'll be interesting! GBWYall!

Steve, I wouldn't worry too much about galling. I find that SS galls to SS and not to hardened steel, especially if you match diameters exactly.

I have no idea what I'm talking about but it sounds like a good idea to me, best of luck!

Precise fitting sleeve with green loctite. Engineering in a can. Maybe Don could machine the sleeve, must be exact, lol.

Sounds like a reasonable plan, Steve. The other option for shrinking a sleeve on would be to cool down the spindle with dry ice, but your method with red loc-tite is more "reversible".

Great video 👍

I read all the comments and my thought is, you got it right Steve.

I’m sorry Steve. I wish you all the good luck in the world. I think it’s fantastic that you got that spindle, so at least you have that much. My prayers to you and the people of Ukraine. I think it’s a safe bet with your idea of that sleeve will work but your going to have to make tools to keep it from distorting. You can glue it on. Then get it loose with some boiling water. Shouldn’t distort to much that way. Good luck till next time.

Good Luck Steve. You're a better man than I am. I'm sorry to say that I think I would've cut my losses and parted that one out.

Steve, One thing that would save you a lot of time & efffort would be to install an air over hydraulic cylinder on your engine hoist. You can get one from HF. I use one in my shop. Works great.

Sounds like a plan boss!

It will work. Glad you’re still kicking.

RU-vid has been recommending your channel likely because I follow alot of other machining channels 👍

Greetings from Australia Hi Steve.... Make the ring a light press fit in the bearing itself. Then lap the ID of the ring to fit on the spindle by trial and error. No heat and it will be easy to press it out of the bearing if need be. Maybe you can grind the ring ID and OD in one setting on your tool and cutter grinder. then a tiny bit of lapping and the problem is solved! Regards

Like you're patience, keep up the good work 👍,l try to follow along but lm old and ugly, but I try like this teacher.

Personally I’d shrink fit the sleeve, then grind it place between centers. Then your have an accurate and permanent shoulder extension. To install clamp the spindle vertically to the bench. Set the extension ring on a brick, and heat with a wide flame mapp gas or propane torch. Pick it up with a welding glove and it’ll drop right on.

You are correct that 100% support of the inner race is not necessary. Consider reducing the problem to one critical dimension from two by turning and boring the ring with the perfect wall thickness for an exact fit without needing to hit both diameters perfectly. A bit small on the diameters is fine. Sneak up on the wall thickness from both the ID and the OD, which ever is working better. Part it then cut across the ring so it will slip on the shaft and into the bearing bore with a tiny end gap. Cool the shaft, or not, heat the bearing, add the Loctite and slide it together. The fit and alignment will be as perfect as the shim thickness, with only a single super critical dimension. The shaft did not corrode during the first life time, a steel shim will not corrode during the second. Try several materials to see which is most forgiving and predictable. 4140 maybe.

Steve, They make speedy sleeves for bearings when the shaft is worn and they are stainless steal . It should work out for you. Good luck, Bob RJ Machine

you have 1 1/8" of register on the inner race as it is and would probably work just fine without doing anything more to it. I would agree with the fellow who suggests fitting the od to the bearing and leaving the id large to allow room for epoxy or whatever type of glue you want to use here. Which is the same I think as you are saying with the red locktite. It becomes self centering. Do those bearing function more for alignment than load, if so, all the more reason that an epoxied sleeve of any sorts will work. Look forward to your success with this.

I like your sleeve idea, but I agree, you might get a better match by making it slightly proud and then grinding it to size with a tool post grinder while turning between centers. BTW: loctite and others make a cylinder sleeve adhesive designed to take the heat and severe loaded of big diesel engines when reserving the cylinders. This stuff even works well on small caliber firearms like .22 barrels. Good luck!

The sleeve is a good fix, as far as heating and shrinking it on that is how I would do it , as far as warping it will conform to the shaft when it cools, what you would have the most trouble with is finishing the OD you would be best to plan a little proud then polish it to the finish size after shrinking it on, this is just how I would attempt it, i wonder if the older spindle only had a single bearing.

I agree that stainless could give you galling if the fit isn't exactly right or if the bearing is cocked a tad when you press it on, I'd go for a good grade of steel and sleeve locker instead of loctite red. Just my 2 cents worth. You are on the right track though, I wouldn't want half the bearing unsupported either.

Good luck 🤞

Someone else said something similar. Look for another set of bearings. The new shaft you have is probably newer and uses a newer style two row angular contact vs the stacked single row angular contacts of the old shaft. There's a reason spindles cost a fortune to have someone rebuild and stacked high precision angular contact bearings are a trick to put together with that level of precision. If you can find a twin row single cartridge bearing that would be the way to go

Sounds like a plan!

good idea steve crack on with it mate

I think the sleeve is a good idea. With some green loctite it will be there forever.

Steve, I would buy a small bottle of Loctite 649 high strength/high temperature retaining compound. This is more suitable for this job than standard red Loctite. Given the hassle of having to strip the shaft out if the sleeve comes loose, I think the small additional expense would be worth it for piece of mind. I changed to this for the rear upright drive shaft bearings on big single seat (F2 and F3000) race cars, after I had a bearing work loose using standard red Loctite and it would have completely come out in another couple of miles, as it had vibrated the retaining ring almost all the way out of the upright.

That is a shame you found that damage to the lathe. But with that new idea, I hope it works out well for you.

Love your channel, but I agree with Don. Put it in an oven and heat it up to 400° then slip it on.

I would make the od of the sleeve a 10th small and apply loctite to take up the support. If it is a double row bearing do nothing but assemble the unit.

Another option would be to make the O.D. of the sleeve fit the bearing, the I.D. slightly oversize and, using the bearing to align the sleeve, bond the sleeve to the shaft with Locktite Quickmetal. I don't know if you have ever used this product, but it should be perfect for this application. Make sure you understand how to use this stuff before you begin or things can go south in a hurry.

I don’t have much of a problem with 303 for that. The only thing I would watch out for is whether the expansion characteristics come close to matching the tool steel of the spindle. I haven’t looked this up, so I’m not certain either way.

Steve hasn't shared with us how thick the difference is between the diameters. But, years ago I sent out quite few precision spindles of similar size to be professionally chromed & ground in specific areas of major wear, & they were done with excellent results. The cost at the time also seemed very reasonable enough to do, on our always thin budgets.

Hi Steve, love the videos! I was thinking sleeve to, however make it a bit oversize and lap it to final diameter with the sleeve in place. Only thing to worry about is that you don’t lap the rest of the shaft with it.

Them's are some tolerances for sure Ile bet it comes out just fine ....

For a press-fit you could easily cool the end of the shaft with liquid Nitrogen. Then you could slip the new ring on for a press-fit.

Turn the sleeve hot and slip it on before it cools ;) Focus on the I/D, get it fitted then turn the O/D finishing cuts with it mounted on the spindle between centres.

I like the bronze idea go for it will work

I think for the application, a sleeve out of 303 will be perfectly sufficient. I'm no expert, but I doubt you really need the sleeve ... unless that shoulder it creates extends beyond the bearing a few thousandths and is an important reference to the next gear(?) towards the end of the shaft. Thanks for sharing 🇨🇦

You can find Locktite 640 or 620 on eBay for less than $30. Both are sleeve retaining compounds with wicking capability not found with Locktite 262/263/271 red thread locking compounds.

Steve... for the Missing metal on the 10EE... you could contact Adam Booth (friend of Keith Rucker) he can spray weld that area and then use his lathe to resize the shaft

Steve, love your channel and you approaches to problems. The SS sleeve method may work, and the lock-tite may secure it. If I might make a suggestion? Have you considered doing the new method of spray welding to build up the area that would be for the sleeve, and replace the sleeve instead with the spray weld. That way the absolute ID of the corresponding bearing could be machined without risk of movement of the sleeve or of any galling of parts. A lot of precision machine repairs are now done using that method. Just saying ..........see Abom79s channel, he does a lot of spray welding, in fact he runs a Monarch lathe and maybe could help. Don

Make the sleeve ID to match the shaft OD and use Loctite 620 to retain the sleeve to the shaft. I have used Loctite 620 to retain bearing & sleeves for many years in the rebuild business.

It should be a good test of Bob's metal in making that sleeve. You have to make a video of when you are doing it.

My only comment is to make sure the part is COLD when you sneak up on the final diameters and mike the shaft then the part both, each and every time. Unless the shop is climate controlled the shaft will change with shop temp. I know it is basics... but the basics can still bite you in the rump if you get too focused. Great Plan and stay with the SS for the part unless you can't get a good finish on the outside. :)

It doesn't take a large temperature differential to create a good friction fit. Put the spindle in a freezer for 24 hours and put your sleeve in a toaster over at 250 degrees and the sleeve will drop right into place. When the temperatures of the two equalize, that sleeve wont go anywhere.

I think 4140 might be better but not the end of the world. Given the tooling you have I would make the OD of your sleeve a good fit in the bearing, then comes the trick, make the ID a 1 to 2 thou clearance and then use 603 retainer on assembly, that way any run out will be taken up by the retainer, the alignment will be dictated by the rest of the bearing on the original spindle surface and once the 603 is cured will give a good support to the sleeve/ bearing assembly without putting any bending forces into the spindle due to run out caused by the conventional method of an interference fit sleeve. I believe my suggested method will give you the best chance of retaining the inherent accuracy put into the shaft by the manufacturers which we home shop guys have no way to replicate. hope this helps, the old timer from the old country. 😊

Have you verified where exactly the bearing sits when it is assembled? Maybe it doesn't even go that far out and on the old version they just had surface sticking out the back of the bearing. Alternatively if there is a spacer between the bearing and the splined area perhaps it could just be shortened so the bearing sit on the shaft all the way.

I will be here.

It'll work sleeved, there won't be any problems with shaft or bearing .

use hot oil to heat the ring, oil at smoke or 312f and machine your interference fitment. it works great, this is what they did back when

If you're worried about even heating, heat it in oil. Heat oil in a metal container then dip the sleeve in it. A cheap electric frying pan or deep fryer will also do. I don't know what the difference in heat expansion between stainless steel and carbon steel is but I doubt it will be a factor. Don't the gears push up against that edge to hold it in place?

I've seen Adam from abom spray weld shafts to add material

Yes I would Loctite to the shaft but i would make it a very firm fit to the shaft. That means a very firm press fit. The metal I would use bearing bronzes this would firm press fit with Loctite

Hey Steve, I was pondering this and I was just wondering about the existing bearing fit on to the spindle? Are you expecting to have that sleeve secured unto the spindle with the Loctite and then dress it down (grinding it flush) to the correct bearing fit (a close sliding fit)? I figure the bearings fit securely into the casting and the spindle slides into place, right?

Red loctite should work quite well, and it's reversible with a bit of heat.

I love the door sign. By wreck you mean a machine that was crashed or being transported and wrecked?

Now, I must admit that I'm not a machinist, but I am a mechanic, so take my suggestion with a grain of salt. Why not make a cut tapered ferrule instead? It would auto center, be held in by, I assume, with all those keyways, a cluster of gears. It would be reversible if it didn't work, and there wouldn't be a need to make a high tolerance sleeve that may or may not give the bearing the support it needs. The ferrule might not even need to be cut. Sorry for my brainstorming.

I think you are onto something Steve. Thirty millionths of an inch. I am in the plus minus fivethousanths club most days.

New arrival here, and this is for sure an interesting project. Does the main bearing group in the 1990 machine have its own oil supply? I’m trying to work out the reason for having a labyrinth seal in there. Thanks, Steve!

I'm no machinist but I have observed a Sunnen hone put a beautiful finish on hydraulic parts.If one was in your shop would you hone the sleeve to a final i,d, or would it be over kill? AL B.

I agree with your idea of putting a sleeve on the shaft , I am curious what is the distance from the spline to the key is it the same on both shafts ? if it is then the sleeve would be perfect

Could you grind the sleeve once fitted on a lathe with a tool post grinder?

Have you checked the new spindle for run out, with the bearings sitting on vee blocks, if yes, how was it. I like the sleeve idea.

Do you or anyone you know have access to a spray welding rig? Those systems were pretty much designed for bearing journals. I didn't hear you say the difference between the inner and outer diameter of the sleeve you'd have to make, so I don't know how much material would need to be built up. Just something to consider.

Just a thought from an amateur machinist! Could you make the sleeve a tad oversize on the o/d then fit it to the spindle and grind it back to size? I know your cylindrical grinder is out of commission but for such a valuable machine could you send it out for final grinding? A guy like you must know other reliable machinists.

New subscriber. Why not use Loctite 638 bearing retaining compound. Its made for exactly what you are doing and stays forever until you decide to remove it with heat.

I was thinking the groove was to separate the length of shaft that needed to be ground more accurately from the rest. Is the shaft diameter exactly the same on both sides of the groove?

When you're done with this: wreck; basket case; case of buyer's remorse; etc., then what? What other major flaws could be hiding in this lathe?

Hi Steve, you told that you wouldn't heat that sleve, that your going to make. Did you think of the option to put that shaft in the freezer and adchieve the same space as heating the sleve?

I'd spray weld it and grind it, if that was available. Are those angular contact bearings? All the spindles I work with use them in the nose. The way I've done sleeves like that is using an oven that heats evenly. Wish you could afford the bearings. Have you contacted anyone like Motion Industries to see if they'd donate them?

Do you still have the spindle? Obviously spray welding is a no no, but have you thought about electron beam physical vapor deposition (PVD)? It adds atomic layer by layer with an electron beam in a vacuum at ambient temperature so no heating is required. The spindle could then be reground to its original tolerance.

I was trying to find the runout on a 10EE Online....one said it was .0001" " Monarch specifies .0001 for a new EE machine. There was an option on some years that it could be ordered with a special super precision bearings with a 20 to 50 millionths runout. " that implies there are more than one set of bearings available? maybe the cheaper ( .0001" ) bearings are what this machine has?

Off topic question when and how did you meet Don. I have started my journey of watching all of your old videos and poof there is Don lol