Loop Induced Emergency?!

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The oil temp ran away, going WAY over redline after a 4G pull! Proudly associated with ForeFlight: www.foreflight.com/flightchops
In this episode, we’re presented with a potentially disastrous instrumentation anomaly after pulling a 4G aerobatic maneuver; Luckily it ended well, but the cause was unique and unexpected. We drill down into what happened, and how to fix it, with an engineer from Garmin Aviation.
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FLIGHT CHOPS DISCLAIMER:
I am a "weekend warrior" private pilot, I fly for fun with no intentions of going commercial. I have had my PPL for over 15 years, but still consider each flight a learning experience - I generally take detailed notes after each flight to remind myself what went well or what I could do to improve.... Having GoPro cameras to record flights like this is invaluable. I find these self analysis videos very helpful in my constant quest to improve, and am happy to share. Feedback is invited; however, please keep it positive.
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Опубликовано:

20 окт 2022

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Комментарии : 305

@sircrapalot9954 Год назад

Mister Chops, at around the halfway point of the video you just addressed the observation of potentially excessive wire strain by zip-tying the connections so close to the terminal. Good finding! I'd recommend to consider using wax string to secure your wire bundles instead of zip ties. From my time as a USAF maintainer, zip ties to secure wires were generally frowned upon because vibration induces chafing of the insulation and accelerates wear. Wax string takes a little more work to secure but allows the wire to slide within the wrap. Something else to consider! Keep your flight chops sharp!

@johnburrows6348 Год назад

Good job on the emergency! 8 seconds to recognize the overtemp is as fast as you can get without an alarm. As an AME for 25 years I have come to dislike spade or knife terminals anywhere in an aircraft. Unfortunately on certified we keep replacing them as built. On the high amp draw circuits like a landing light switch the get loose, build heat and fail. I later worked in Heavy duty equipment that had very electronically managed engines and systems. They are sensitive to resistance in terminations and they use much more robust connectors. I am looking forward to building a homebuilt next so I can leave those connectors behind and use Weatherpack, metri-pac or Deutsch for plug terminations. They are used heavily in automotive and once you put one together with a proper crimper you will see how nice they are. They are also really nice and quick to unplug if used in a cowl that needs to be disconnected prior to removal. Keep up the good work on videos !

@Drmcclung Год назад

I completely & wholly agree. As a mechanic myself (retired from it) I was never a fan of spade terminals, especially on older planes with wimpy generators where the current will spike from low voltage at said terminal. Or instruments to go just @55-wonky for no reason - I can't count the number of scorched wires and loose connectors I've had to replace just because the connection got hot. Especially on the smaller super buzzy 4cyls that have a way of buzzing connections apart that have you chasing your tail trying to find THE fault because it couldn't be replicated on the ground. What a total pain in the ass

@tekvax01 Год назад

I loathe using those scrimp connectors with mission-critical terminations... I never trust them to maintain a good connection over time, especially in harsh conditions.

@The_Flying_Mechanic Год назад

Situational awareness, systems understanding, and personal responsibility… there needs to be more stuff out there like this! Informative and interesting!

@ProfSimonHolland Год назад

well said

@wgmskiing Год назад

I don't know what engineering reasons Garmin used to choose a 2 wire RTD probe, but I work daily with Pt100 RTD probes in industry and a two wire implementation is very rare. They are nearly always implemented as a 3 or 4 wire setup to provide independence from the cable and connector resistance. That said, an intermittent or loose connection on one of the three or four wires can still cause these instantaneous step changes in temperature. In industry we will go to fairly ridiculously inconvenient lengths to avoid connections in RTD probe wiring.

@benmol_ Год назад

Same here, I work with Pt50 and Pt100 on aircrafts for scientific research, we always use them with 4 wires (and we don't use this kind of crimpimp: for this setup we would use Amphenol Air LB splices, way more reliable... and expensive)

@wgmskiing Год назад

@@benmol_ hey, thanks for sharing this. I looked them up...those 1119 splices look really nice. They have ones with built in passives like resistors and diodes, I can think of a bunch of niche cases to use those in. Very neat!

@mixblast1 Год назад

Why not mount an ADC directly to the probe and do error correction?

@ingrownnipple Год назад

@@mixblast1 my guess is to keep the cost and complexity of the probe down. But I think this isn't a bad idea

@paulcarstens2601 Год назад

And that’s how quickly things can go from fun, to not so fun. Good job Steve!

@airmotivewelding8012 Год назад

Nicely handled. One thing not mentioned was the associated oil pressure drop cross check. Oil temp that high will also cause a drop in viscosity and show a lower than normal reading. No drop from normal pressure, would lead me to instrumentation. Again nice job!

@FlightChops Год назад

Thanks yeah - This was a good learning experience - I just couldn't get beyond the expectation bias that it was real, after having seen what happened to Dave.

@kevinmaiorka5370 Год назад

Not always. I had a 152 aerobat peg the oil temp and oil pressure was still good. Was not a instrumentation issue but was indeed a failing engine. Landed and told the owner about what happened (was a rental) and his mechanic found a large amount of metal in the engine, which resulted in an overhaul of the engine. From the time of engine temp pegging to landing was around 10 minutes.

@airmotivewelding8012 Год назад

@@kevinmaiorka5370 Glad you the airplane on the ground. It is interesting that in your situation no association with pressure.

@dustinlerch9272 Год назад

@@airmotivewelding8012 I wonder how it could not. Very interesting indeed

@cloud9847 Год назад

Gorgeous airplane. Rarely do I see one and say 'boy I want that one'...but this one hit that itch.

@blancolirio Год назад

Oil pressure ok? CHT? Probably an indication problem. Good job staying cool and RTB.

@johnmajane3731 Год назад

Good job addressing the issue, not panicking and getting yourself, passenger and plane on the ground safely.

@AlexFeldstein Год назад

Whew! That was tense, not knowing how serious it could be. Well handled under pressure Steve.

@GaryMCurran Год назад

You know, when you were training in Osama for your Instrument rating and check ride, you didn't appear to be this self confident. Now you've had what amounts to an emergency, even though there was no physical damage to the airplane, and you handled it very well. Very calm, very collected, not like 'Oh, what do I need to do now.' You just did it. Nicely done, Steve!

@tangot8549 Год назад

FlightChops, I’ve seen this several times over 40 years. The missing cockpit check is oil pressure. Spike in temp with declining oil pressure = bad. Spike in temp no oil pressure change = likely bad probe. I’ve seen it enough times I keep an infrared thermometer in my tool bag. I recently had an oil temp spike in a Baron with no corresponding drop in oil pressure-Made a precautionary landing at the closest airport without caging the motor, because I suspected a probe due to the stable oil pressure. Got out, lasered the oil radiator, and it was the exact same temperature as the other motor (and also about 50 degrees cooler then indicated). This is a very valuable tip that I thought I might pass along.

@FlightChops Год назад

Thanks for the insights here. I was no doubt blinded by the bias of assuming it was the same issue Dave had recently. I will review the data from his flight when the oil temp really did spike due to the scat tube blowing off.., I am curious was the other numbers (oil pressure and CHTs) did in that case.

@tangot8549 Год назад

Awesome! Report back and let us know!

@thehoeser Год назад

@@FlightChops There was an associated pressure drop with my emergency, but if you didn't really know the engine well you likely wouldn't notice it much at higher power. It was only about 3 psi (as expected by a pressure regulated system). At idle the pressure drop was more significant and it was low enough to trigger the yellow arc.

@chriswilliams5366 Год назад

Nicely done, Steve. Good job flying the airplane and getting a plan together!

@lucky_one2 Год назад

Thanks for taking us along Steve...thats why we train so hard...for when stuff happens. I have been dealing with Flaky RTD's for 40 years in the nuclear industry...troubleshooting from an operations perspective...thought you did a good job with the emergency.

@maillouski Год назад

Seeing the cause of the issue, it is not surprising. Good job on handling the situation. Garmin were also pretty supportive when I had my incident involving my newly installed GFC-500.

@Michael-he7xn Год назад

She’s absolutely gorgeous Chops! My dream come true… Well done! Thanks 🙏🏻

@FlightChops Год назад

Many thanks!

@papawheelie5835 Год назад

Reminded me of my first checkride when the examiner pulled the carb heat and power to simulate an engine out and unexpectedly watching the prop stop when the engine actually died. Yippie! We're having fun now!

@erich930 Год назад

Don’t leave us hanging! Obviously you’re okay, but how’s that go for ya???😂

@papawheelie5835 Год назад

@@erich930 It went well, trimmed for best glide, scanned terrain, smooth low bank turn to set up on a dry lake-bed, then fiddled with the re-start until she barked. Passed with flying colors.

@rnordquest Год назад

My instructor cut the engine for my emergency practice and it quit just like he planned. He turned it back on with 20 feet to go. Nothing like real practice.

@stewc625 Год назад

Wow that's a great video and a great lesson in problem management and pilot workload management. Great thinking having your friend stay on the radios though agree he could have been more succinct in his calls. When ATC was asking about keeping speed up and you were saying "I can't add power" - that's what he should have been saying vs the word salad he gave them. Interesting comment on switching on the autopilot to work the problem - your self-debriefing is like a master class, Steve. And once you found that you could run a bit of power and stay under redline, that got you what you needed ideally which was to go back home and land, avoiding the hassle of landing at an airport where you don't have resources handy. Very interesting lesson also about the electrical issues associated with this. Can't say enough good about this video.

@FlightChops Год назад

Stewart, I really appreciate this friendly feedback. 👊

@imkindofabigdeal4308 Год назад

Adding a lot of value to the GA community. Nice job!

@tekvax01 Год назад

Sooooo scary! Good job handling the emergency! Rule number one, always stay calm!

@JustinBellingerTV Год назад

Great landing, glad you made it safe!

@ChrisB257 Год назад

Fascinating learning experience - seems to demonstrate the potential for erroneous readings when dealing with fractional ohmic figure changes from external matters like connectors. Can see how much concern there was understandably with the loop though for sure the graph spike appearance was too much for a real temp change once analyzed. Dave's experience also very interesting. Just love the RVs paint job Steve - that is one superb plane. :)

@PghGameFix Год назад

Glad you guys are safe.

@snowman100 Год назад

Am in admiration of your search for aviation knowledge and how you use that to inform the community as a whole. I've watched you since you started your videos with Osama and you inspired me to fly which an currently doing my ppl. Love you videos and glad everything worked out just fine, keep em sharp as well

@FlightChops Год назад

This feedback is much appreciated! and congrats on doing your PPL! Report back as you progress!

@scottleckliter4992 Год назад

Great job keeping composure there. Good stuff Steve. Glad it all worked out.

@FlightChops Год назад

Thanks Scott 👍

@billbrisson Год назад

well done Steve! \Good reminder for me to brush up on my emergency Pro's!

@FlyVansAircraft Год назад

Nice flying and SA. Good job!

@clarencewiles963 Год назад

Looping your way home? Found the issue! Now we get a full review. And the color is perfect. And a great choice. Thanks again for your work.

@FlightChops Год назад

You bet!

@francisschweitzer8431 Год назад

Nice work on a nerve racking situation. Love that paint job…. And she deserves those Rondel’s.

@FlightChops Год назад

Right on Thanks!

@annetaylor9534 Год назад

Awesome video! Great job handling a very stressful situation.

@FlightChops Год назад

Thanks!

@rowerwet Год назад

Unless it's something that comes apart often, like a cowling mounted landing light, any connection like that in an engine bay, should be an environmental splice. 30 year A&P with plenty of wiring and avionics experience. Crimp connectors are lousy to use anywhere in an aircraft, but especially in an engine compartment with heat, vibration and moisture.

@sidlambert3105 Год назад

I had a wing root seperate during a loop once. That scared the snot out of me. I also had runaway trim coming out of a loop. That one less scary because I knew what it is quickly. Good job staying on the safe side of that oil temp.

@tompaulism Год назад

Jeez. I assume you meant a wing root fairing....otherwise you probably wouldn't have been able to debrief at all!

@RandomKSandom Год назад

That was really interesting to watch. Thanks for sharing.

@FlightChops Год назад

Glad you enjoyed it

@goatflieg Год назад

Well played, sir. I once saw one brief spike of either oil temp or oil pressure during Phase 1. It immediately returned to normal and never reoccurred, but it still gave me the willies. I finally got all the little bugs worked out of my avionics now (thanks to Tom Smith of Beacon Aviation) and the bird is feeling reliable. I got to this video late because I flew to Erie PA Saturday and returned Sunday (also why I missed the last Burger Burn). During postflight inspection I found some damage behind the wheel opening in the aft half of both wheel fairings; not sure when it happened. I'd heard similar tales from other builders, which is why I didn't bother painting them until I knew they'd hold up. Took them off today and I'll work on them at home. If I do any more flying this season I'll be doing it barefoot, so to speak.

@FlightChops Год назад

Right on man! Let's do some flying together! I'm currently grounded working on an exhaust issue - should be back up in a week or two.

@CZrv4 Год назад

Love the G3x, putting one in my RV4 soon

@johnnicol5009 Год назад

Great landing and thanks for sharing! My only comment is that your co-pilot was a bit too chill and language with the tower didn't necessarily convey that this is an emergency situation. Although it did appear that the tower was concerned on their calls back to you. Don't want to be the armchair commentator as I wasn't in the seat at the time, just my observation! Had a similar situation with an instructor when I was doing my PPL in a C172. The oil temp all of a sudden went through the roof and we were a few miles away from the airport at low altitude. Rather than call an emergency, or do an off airport landing we limped back to the airport over the city. Worked out, but only just and luck of the gods was on our side. We landed safely, but the aircraft never flew again. The engine was basically toast and we were only literally a minute or two away from the engine quiting and blowing rods through the cowling. There is nothing wrong with doing a Pan call if things don't look right and they won't take your birthday away if you land safely. It would have cleared the traffic at least and given you clear direct to the runway if it was busier. Thank you again for yet another awesome video. I must come down to your airport one day and check out the museum! (Based close to Ottawa).

@FlightChops Год назад

Legit feedback about the chill / verbose radio work - that is why I mentioned it during the debrief in the video.

@macscott5290 Год назад

Great video. Any reason you didn’t call a Pan Pan? Lost carb heat on the last leg of my qualifying x country in the UK. On a day with icing. Got great ATC assistance and stayed high on base and finals to do a glide approach. Might have been OTT and being follow back to the club by a fire engine was a bit embarrassing (i think they were bored) but felt right at the time in case things went pear shaped quickly… No criticism just interested to know the thinking on this.

@MichaelOfRohan Год назад

"Dont want to be the armchair pilot, but here goes"...

@johnnicol5009 Год назад

@@MichaelOfRohan yes I was being ironic.

@MayhemCanuck Год назад

This was very interesting. As an automotive tech every connection I crimp is also soldered, there are also better tools to get a better crimp that's based on the wire size and connector your using. I can see spade terminals OK in an automotive application but with Aviation I wonder if a more robust connector that would be more resistant to vibration would be another idea or a solid soldered shrink wrapped joint? Great job, its the possible emergency's that are not treated like one that gets people into trouble, you can always call the emergency off after then wait to late to do it

@125brat Год назад

You can use a proper aircraft-grade terminal block and decent crimp ring terminals such as AMP's PIDG but you must use the correct tool. That's what the big boys use. More expensive than automotive push-on types but far more reliable. The key is to use the correct type, size and quality of crimp for the application, use the correct tool ideally a rachet-type and crimp it correctly. Speak nicely to your local electrical man and he might lend you the tools.

@MickeLang Год назад

Very interesting one! You did a good job there Steve💪🏼👍🏼

@FlightChops Год назад

Thanks Micke - it was a nail bitter for a minute there for sure!

@altebo Год назад

I love your honest & no nonsense approach to aviation. Very humble & informative. Thank you so much for sharing. I'm looking forward to more of your awesome content. Until then, take care!

@dans6934 Год назад

Nice video. Look into adding tempilabel’s to the oil pan and oil filter. They’re a great way to verify how hot the oil actually got and provide piece of mind when there is an erroneous gage reading.

@jfsimon1981 Год назад

Good day, Love the electronics, by the way in intend to make transceivers, one thing i thought of is precisely what happened here -> go into "temperature unreliable" when we detect micro events such as +20°F in much less than a second for example. An indication of something happening in the line, neat. Would do this just because i like perfection, it's not because this is simple we have do the technical details bypassed. Regards, Jean-François

@thorstenwanoth6774 Год назад

interesting to see that aircraft builders have to take into account the G forces applied to motors vibrating with cable strands and positioning of cable ties. Next level stuff. I had a some cable ties around some Renthal aluminium bars on my BMW airhead motorcycle for years after the original bracket holding the clocks in place cracked through. Year later i took it all apart to see that the Tyton cable ties appeared to be in as good as new condition and had worn through about half the depth of the aluminium bar section. OK - gotta watch this to the end...

@finntheirish13 Год назад

I'm impressed you caught that within 8.6 seconds. Like you said looking at G meter and being in the moment with acrobatics can distract you, but your scan is excellent. Of course sooner is better in a situation like that, but if that were me I'd have been lucky to catch that as soon (without an audible/ visual alert)

@FlightChops Год назад

Thanks - and me too honesty - I can't say my scan is always THAT good... but in this case, it was :)

@Dunwyche Год назад

Great job Steve!

@FlightChops Год назад

Thanks!

@kevinwells4986 Год назад

That was such a great post flight analysis! I get it that the copilot was perhaps a little accommodating with his dialogue with the tower on approach, though he did get the result you wanted. I understand you could have overrode everything with declaring an emergency though. But I think he also did an excellent job in this situation, as of course did you. This was really really good to watch as it's been a long time since I've been in the air, and my last (and final experience as a pilot) was nerve wracking. I gave up my dream that day actually, although my instructor came out and made me take off again and complete like maybe three more landing (I was doing a solo flight, I think my 3rd or so). Anyway, everyone can learn a lot from any of your videos, but this one was really good.

@FlightChops Год назад

Glad you found the video interesting Kevin! If you decide to get back in the air, I wish you all the best with it!

@JasonRosewell Год назад

Great job, man! Cool as a cucumber.

@warrickwalter426 Год назад

I'm surprised Garmin doesn't have anomaly detection on sensors like this. Software could easily identify when a sensor is reading erratically, and alert that as a possible sensor malfunction. This would provide a safety net going the other way too, detecting where a temp sensor has malfunctioned electrically while still reading a value that wouldn't otherwise stand out to the pilot. This could be taken even further when CHT sensors are present, and cross reference them with the oil temp - although the heuristics certainly get more complicated. Nonetheless, done right there would be a lot of value in the avionics being able to identify when sensors aren't agreeing vs. everything is overheating this is an emergency. I'm doing the unthinkable and building some of my own hardware/software avionics systems for a kit plane, and software resiliency is a huge concern. It's very important for the software to detect when something doesn't add up and respond by failing into a safe configuration. For example, take a software controlled trim system. It's critical that the software is comparing the trim position sensor reading with what it expects it to be, and if it doesn't match then it refuses to drive the actuator. Similarly, if the trim position sensor was noisy and/or it's reading changed unexpectedly the software needs to alert that and disable the system as it can't trust it's inputs are accurate.

@guyoreilly5670 Год назад

Well done!

@EJWash57 Год назад

Great video! Nice calm work-through. Does make me wonder about two things: 1- why there is no practice to double-clamp ducts in certain applications, and 2- why there isn't a lip or bulging (?) ring around the duct for a more secure attachment.

@jeffhiner Год назад

The word you're looking for is "flange". Crimp a flange onto that ducting to make sure the ring clamp holds steady.

@EJWash57 Год назад

@@jeffhiner Thanks!

@alistairkip7303 Год назад

What a landing!

@rigilchrist Год назад

Well done.

@johncoleman4084 Год назад

Great share!

@125brat Год назад

I've had similar issues with oil temp indication on a Rotax 912 caused by their use of cheap tin-plated contacts in their main wiring-loom connectors for the PT100 sensor. Temp suddenly shot up by about 50 degrees C in flight so had to do a PFL in a field. Tin-plated contacts are fine for power circuits above a few hundred mA, but not for signal connections which should use gold plated or flashed contacts for low-current or sensor circuits. I changed the connector to a terminal-block with crimped ring-terminals and everything has been fine since.

@IDontTalkToCops Год назад

Awesome video. Subbed 👍

@willhartsell2283 Год назад

my first thought, declare, declare declare, you needed help that could have quickly escalated to something more extreme...declare early so if/when it goes even more sideways..you dont have to get over that mental hurdle or the tsunami of questions that will immediately follow

@FlightChops Год назад

Yup, there is no harm in declaring. I made that a part of the debrief with Andrei privately as well as publicly in this video.

@residensetresidenset6930 Год назад

Firstly: thanks for sharing and happy to see it all worked out well! I’m a fan of the channel and your work. With all due respect: You are flying in a single pilot system here. (I agree with the wise thing in assigning passengers a task. For lots of reasons even.) But: What about if your friend felt the need to play it cool because he’s “on tv”? What about if your friend is insecure about making a pan call? Or even mayday. Maybe he’s thinking: I don’t want to get anyone in to trouble here, and I’m sure Flight chops will tell me to do it differently, if he wants to. Although you are working the radio by proxy, you as a pic could have told him to make it a pan call. That being said, I know you were busy flying! And that my comments are from the comfort of my armchair. I’m just trying to view the thing from a slightly different perspective. But again: great job under stress and thanks for sharing!! Did I mention I’m a fan of the channel?😅

@rossrobinson7943 Год назад

For a critical measurement like that, really should be using a 4-point probe method of measuring resistance. Then the measurement is independent from the connection wire resistance. Probably not how the probes are available off the shelf.

@tompaulism Год назад

Awesome video. Off topic, but you're panel is gorgeous and is making me a little envious! I fly a 12 year old RV7A with steam gauges. One day I will probably go glass like this (saving nickels until then) but this is a great looking example, even if it is still reliant on good crimps!

@FlightChops Год назад

right on! Glad you enjoyed this episode, and yeah, you won't be disappointed by Gamin Avionics!

@halepauhana153 Год назад

Nicely done! On my last flight I had a High Voltage light come on, and discharge on the ammeter, and figured that's an immediate abort. I checked the fuses, and turned off all lights and one of the radios, while my co-pilot buddy read the emergency checklist, which suggested turning the Alternator Master off and on again, which cleared the problem. While it did not recur again on the way back, despite turning lights and radios back on, I think it was the right decision.

@FlightChops Год назад

Thanks for sharing your story.

@mrsaskriders Год назад

That is a great video.

@Agislife1960 Год назад

Working on Navajo's back in the 90's we use to take a pair of pliers to that oil cooler ducting, putting a little bit of a flare on the end, to keep that from happening

@FlightChops Год назад

I thought about this... how did that affect the scat tube rubber? did you have different material?

@Agislife1960 Год назад

@@FlightChops It was on a PA31-350 and the material was the same, you can put a little bit of a flare on the edge of the Aluminum ducting that goes to the oil cooler and the scat tubing will stay on, its not really a conventional method, but it works really well, the Scat tubing isn't round so it will fit over a slightly flared edge

@nicksharp7972 Год назад

@@FlightChops Proper tools also exist to flare tube ends. Very commonly used in the automotive world for pressurized systems such as radiator or turbo boost piping. If you look at OEM hose clamp connected barbed fittings they all have some kind of flare or teeth to keep the tubing from sliding off. As your scat tubing sits it's just the friction keeping it on, with 200? KT air ramming into it. A small flare will keep it seated with much less need to crank that clamp to within an inch of it life. Certain styles of electrical crimp pliers have a great jaw near the pivot to make a bead on the tubing. You don't need to go all the way around and risk mangling the tube either, just a couple of bumps. This all assumes that what the scat tubing connects to is metal and not a formed composite.

@superpilotish Год назад

Good job! Cutting the flight short and making it back safely to the ground is always the correct decision. Emergency or not.👍

@FlightChops Год назад

Yes! Thank you!

@F1fan007 Год назад

Great video and debrief/troubleshooting! Can’t wait to see more! You have singlehandedly got my son and I interested in building a Vans RV someday hopefully! I’ve tried entering the contest today and each time get an error. Also went to the “contact us” on your webpage and got an error on that too when I went to submit a question about entering. Maybe the system is down?😢

@FlightChops Год назад

Thanks for the heads up - I’m in the hangar right now working on the plane but I will get my web guy on this

@F1fan007 Год назад

@@FlightChops looks like it’s working! It didn’t acknowledge that I signed up but it didn’t throw an error either, so that’s good

@FlightChops Год назад

OK thanks for letting me know - I think I just replied in a thread for a duplicate of this comment - glad to hear it is working now

@paolo4002 8 месяцев назад

Bit late on this but t-bolt style clamps may be a better option than worm gear style. If a worm gear fails on your clothes dryer hose, not such a big deal. If it comes off your oil cooler at altitude. a much bigger deal.

@BabaDka Год назад

Amazing paint job.

@FlightChops Год назад

Thanks!

@mikesweeney408 Год назад

Nicely dealt with. Interesting Human Factors issue where assumption of a cause is based on a past experience. When returning to the airport, I think a PAN call would be appropriate; you and ATC wouldn’t then have that spacing between you and the RJ behind to deal with, as the ATCO would just prioritise you. Great learning video though.

@ToddsDiscGolf Год назад

Amazing video and breakdown

@FlightChops Год назад

Friendly feedback appreciated!

@OrionFH Год назад

Good job, but a quick look at the oil pressure would have calmed you down I'd reckon. Perfectly in the green. If the oil was really overheating, that would be way low. Great video still!

@FlightChops Год назад

Yes I should look at the data from when it happened to Dave (with the scat tube blowing off for real) - I thought about this later - but at the time I didn’t think to rule out instrumentation by cross checking all the other engine instruments

@christiangraves9340 Год назад

well done

@kenny240 Год назад

Good job handling the situation. Glad it wasn’t anything major. I do have a suggestion for the wiring on pretty much all sensors. Those spade connectors aren’t the best to use IMO. I’m partial to Deutsch connectors. They require a small tooling investment, but they’ll hold the connection securely, lock into place, are relatively inexpensive, and they’re waterproof. It might be worth looking into them for critical sensors like the oil temp sensor. I’ve been using them for a few years and they have always done well in some pretty harsh environments (high G, oil/coolant/water, temps in excess of 280°F)

@scottthomas7147 Год назад

Good video!

@Sirmellowman Год назад

dude you gotta get rid of those regular zip ties and use some grip lock ties, they are rubber shrouded

@MattyCrayon Год назад

Good video. I had a CHT gauge go off scale once, while flying a Sportstar, about 80NM from home field. I put a plan together to land at a small nearby strip, but I soon realised the issue was wiring and continued home, because the oil temp or pressure wasn't changing at all and the CHT temp just change too quickly and continued to randomly change. I had ATC follow me back home though, no ADSB or transponder, so It was just regular phone calls to me. The issue was a shorted CHT wire, which was in a loom that had been tightly zip tied to the engine mount, without any protection. Constant vibration over the years (2006 model) just wore away the wires coating.

@FlightChops Год назад

Thanks for sharing your similar story.

@hhitchings Год назад

To Flightchops. I am an AMT in the US. I would suggest to get ride of the mechanical connectors on your oil temp bulb and go with a better connector such as deutsch connector . You may need a DMC wiring tool or tools . But the deutsch connector is far better then the old crimp type connector. All the best and keep those flightchops extra sharp.

@FlightChops Год назад

Thanks for the insights. I'll show this info to Dave

@rosscomer Год назад

Great flying, video, and analysis, @FlightChops. Why not at least do a Pan Pan which would convey an appropriate level of urgency?

@FlightChops Год назад

Good question. That would have been a totally appropriate thing to do.

@AcmePhoto Год назад

Try using a WAGO (brand) connection. They are magical.

@Bill3558 Год назад

Well done and nice plane. The one thing you don’t ever want to hear is the nice lady saying “ oil pressure” on your headset. Happened to me last year and engine seized 4 minutes later. N121YT. I walked away.

@FlightChops Год назад

Wow - that sounds like it was a heck of a story.

@louisrosner7902 Год назад

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think cross checking the CHT‘s and oil pressure would have somewhat mitigated the emergency. Still better and have it on the ground to sort things out. Did a great job. I always love your videos

@FlightChops Год назад

For sure yes that would have been a good idea. The thing that really had me believing it was real was how similar the symptoms were to what had just happened to Dave. I need to actually review the data from his flight to see what the CHTs and pressure did when his oil temp spiked.

@73toaster Год назад

Typically a oil temp rise could produce a pressure drop. Since you had a real event before you were biased. But with the real event data you have a secondary indication in pressure. It is good to use the digital engine monitor to cross check with other parameters to eliminate the instrumentation errors. Maybe one day garmin/lycoming (or even you or me) would develop virtual indications or derivative indications to serve as pseudo channels to weed out the false indications. It's obvious in post analysis, but how about something real time. Very doable.

@FlightChops Год назад

@@73toaster Check out the latest episode where we compared engine data with the REAL oil temp runway - the results are surprising.

@73toaster Год назад

I checked out the new video, very cool to keep pulling this thread! So now we can see that perhaps the smart garmin software people could start to consider better (read priceier perhaps) sensors or adding alarms triggered by rate changes in a parameter which are impossible, like oil temp rising x degrees in 1 second. All of this is already done with fadecs. Granted lots of logic to cover but the point is maybe there is other power in our engine monitors for cross checks and dual sensors etc that is not being utilized in real time to give the pilot some quick info without the pilot doing any mental ninja stuff. If they had a rate change monitor for oil temp you could get an advisory-"possible oil temp sensor anomaly" instead of - "your oil temp is in the red". You would feel much better after that loop with the first alarm. Maybe there is other logic to consider before adding that, but you get the idea of how various sub-algorithms could be added to the software instead of just duplicating our steam gauges with digital readouts and no smarts running in the background.

@tompaulism Год назад

@@73toaster Wow, this is a very intriguing concept, and I sure we will see it soon enough. AI based derivative indications of what might be happening, encompassing all available parameters that a human may not think of in a high-pressure situation. Love it. Until that happens, perhaps more redundancy would be the solution. I have been dealing with OP and OT issues myself in a plane with only steam gauges and no engine monitor at all. I suspected an instrumentation error until I installed an additional purely mechanical OP gauge to confirm indications.

@buttcrack7784 Год назад

I’ve used RTD’s quite often in industrial machinery and the rule was never use a connector or a terminal, unless the terminal was specifically made for RTD’s, between the RTD and the instrument/display reading the RTD because of this very problem. A uninterrupted wire from one point to the other. I wouldn’t be surprised if the installation instructions mentioned and warned of this potential problem.

@Tiwow Год назад

What's "funny" to me watching you manage this is the general tendency to avoid the PAN PAN / MAYDAY message and try to minimise the significance of the situation to the ATC. It's something I've observed almost everytime, including in myself. However one time it backfired to a former colleague, he had an actual engine failure during a training flight in a twin engine and only announced "one engine out" to the ATC. When in long final the ATC told him that he was n°2 for the approach but he took the priority for the landing, to which the controller was really unpleased as there was no justification for that unless he had an actual emergency. The problem was that since it was so usual for this airplane to practice engine failures the controller didn't think that it was an actual one when my colleague announced it.

@ProfSimonHolland Год назад

excelent film... can you explain the 'fun switch'

@FlightChops Год назад

It’s a quick way to inhibit the Garmin “electronic stability and protection” - this can be done via the panel menu as well, but I like the idea of a hard switch ;). Bottom line is, the system won’t let you do anything outside a safe range of pitch and roll unless you disable it. If you look at the videos we did at the Garmin factory the topic is addressed more thoroughly. I’ll grab some likes and make an other comment later - just shutting down for the night here.

@ProfSimonHolland Год назад

@@FlightChops thank you. i will re watch the garmin episode. good night from France

@Sirmellowman Год назад

you are a hell of a pilot buddy

@falconeaterf15 Год назад

Modern synthetic oil can handle some extreme temperatures for short time periods. Military AC can run with zero oil pressure for X amount of time. So you have that on your side at least.

@FlightChops Год назад

True enough - but seeing a number suddenly well beyond redline is still rather unsettling.

@blegi1245 Год назад

Nothing you said applies to this incident. There are no modern synthetic oils or military aircraft here.

@falconeaterf15 Год назад

@@blegi1245 My 2011 Corolla runs 0W20, which is a synthetic oil. If you know anything about aero engines you know they cost a fortune and I would be very, very, surprised if they were not running a pure synthetic oil. So lighten up. PS. I love talking about motor oil.

@terrya6486 Год назад

I'm really surprised you don't have those hose clamps safety wired it's super easy to do.

@FlightChops Год назад

Can you explain how? Do you mean to stop the clamp screw from loosening? or the clamp itself from being able to slip off the flange?

@terrya6486 Год назад

@@FlightChops I raced motorcycles for 20+ years. In our tec inspection we had to have all hose clamps safety wired. If take a about 4 inches Of wire bend the wire in the middle of the screw driver slot and feed both ends through the hose clamp through the worm drive part of the clamp and twist it tight the hose clamp can't get loose. If you want to go one step further you could drill a little hole in your airbox run the tails of those wires up into the airbox and tighten them in there. That will help keep the hose in the hose camp from vibrating off of the Is steel tubing of the airbox. I can take a couple pictures tomorrow just give me an email address or something I can send it to. We would also put a hose clamp on our oil filters and safety wire them so they could not back off very dangerous situation on a motorcycle race track with a oil filter falling off.

@Joey-JoJo-Jr.64 Год назад

I suggest a better pair of wire crimpers. I would only use that type of combination wire stripper/crimper as a last resort.

@SugarfyJoe Год назад

Thanks for the video. Any considerations on always having a field (patch of grass to land engine out) within glide distance? It seemed a bit shallow and low at the end, getting to the airfield. Camera FOV is obviously a limiting factor for the viewer so don't consider this a stab, just a question out of curiousity. My primary goal in any case would also be to land as soon as possible. But keeping my altitude as long as possible, even at risk risk of ruining the engine until a flight path with emergency diverts / a runway with landing circuit has been obtained.

@Spartacus-4297 Год назад

Ram mounts started by making mount for motorcycles.

@timaidley7801 Год назад

Would that have been a good time to declare Pan Pan Pan?

@FlightChops Год назад

It sure would have been :)

@rourkebuechel Год назад

Not trying to Monday morning quarterback too hard here. Overall, solid handling of the EP. Some suggestions though: 1. Don't be afraid to declare an emergency with ATC immediately. They can help you with things like which airport is closes and what the weather is. They also won't ask you about keeping your speed up for an RJ. Those kinds of questions are causing unnecessary pressures on you at a critical time (however small) and can be avoided. Use them. 2. If you suspect you have an impending engine failure, I would highly recommend you don't leave glideback of any airport. If you are high enough that you can make a landing to multiple fields, I can see the logic in trying to limp it along, but I would never recommend leaving the basket of an assured landing for a possible transit home. 3. Along the same train of thought, an engine out profile (either straight in or spiraling overhead) are preferred because again, if you engine fails on final, you could be a 10 miles short, or 1/4 mile, it doesn't matter. Both results are the same. I'm happy for you that it was just an electronic issue. Good luck and safe flying!

@FlightChops Год назад

Great feedback and insights here. Being in that area of Canada, I really was almost perfectly in the middle of my two airport options. So it was either a field or limp home. (And there were fields available almost all the way home… so that was what I elected to do.)

@taytayflyfly7291 Год назад

Hitting the NRST button should be an immediate and practiced response. I also would've hit them with the "pan-pan pan-pan FCGA (distance and direction from airport) straight-in 25 potentially imminent engine failure, two souls on board (color of airplane)" after getting pointed back towards an airport.

@tyler_russell Год назад

I’ll be honest, I had no problem with the radio call. I thought it was good CRM. How nice that he didn’t freak out and could help. Crew panic has caused many accidents historically.

@FlightChops Год назад

Good point - Andrei was definitely chill and inspired confidence on board.

@experimental_av Год назад

Can you share where you sourced those connectors from? Trying to get some more details in lessons learned for the home builder. Also are they rated for the wire size? Just going by the footage they look pretty big compared to the wires.

@FlightChops Год назад

I believe Dave actually got them from our local AME, so they are certified level quality - not sure the exact specs.

@DerekHardwick Год назад

So much data. "So, yeah, it looks like your engine pressure was triggered by your low heart rate. Also congrats on hitting your activity goal! Stress levels are a little high, and your left tire pressure is low, maybe you can try getting more sleep..."

@FlightChops Год назад

I wish I could get tire pressure data! As it stands, I need to remove the wheel pants to check pressure - it's a lot of screws and a bit finicky with regard to the leg fairings... but I've heard those bluetooth sensor caps are often the source of a leak.

@DerekHardwick Год назад

@@FlightChops hmmm... it would be cool if someone made aircraft-grade bluetooth tire pressure sensors...

@erikk77 Год назад

This would be a perfect application for gold plated connectors. They're Highly resistive to corrosion.

@macedk Год назад

You could landed on eggs and not broke a single one :). Good job.

@HPRaceDevelopment Год назад

glad ur safe, great video. Your regard for the engine and the plane is too invested imho. its obvious you wanted to save the engine, save the plane, and of course get down safe, when in reality if you faced a real engine failure safety was of only true concern. Racing engine oil temps can easily exceed 300 in endurance engines. All “redlines” have margin, and in this case pushing an true oil temp of 300 for 30 min would have more than likely just fine If the engine also has cht sensors - using both as an indication of true engine temp may also be something to consider. great job none the less and beautiful airplane, your living the dream!

@FlightChops Год назад

Feedback appreciated - but to be clear - I don't have a ton of experience with operational tolerances outside of spec... So my concern here was a catastrophic engine failure or inflight fire. I really was thinking about saving ourselves, more than the plane. Putting this airplane into a farm field is not ideal due to the low profile wheel pants; it is likely to flip and result in injury - so finding a way to limp it to a runway was obviously ideal...

@HPRaceDevelopment Год назад

@@FlightChops you did great! I hope some day to fly half as well as you and make the smart decisions you make time in and over in flight Good point about a fire. I think adding in a block/head temp sensor array (you probably already have cht) would help if in the future oil temp spikes but cht is dropping, etc

@michaeljacques7336 Год назад

Mechanic here, its absolutely a realistic spike in oil temperature, kind of! It all depends in how your oil system is plumbed. Most of the time if you have an external oil cooler there is a thermostat with a bypass that only sends oil through the cooler once your engine oil temp exceeds the thermostat set temperature. If that thermostat sticks closed the oil in the engine can heat soak, if the thermostat then opens the oil circulation speed up and the hot oil makes it to the sensor and shows a temp spike. Seeing the spike is really dependent on where the oil temp sensor is placed though. its unlikely that you would see a spike if the temp sensor is in an oil gallery on the block, but it’s very possible if you have a sensor present in the oil cooler loop. Either way i would double check your oil thermostat just to make sure is cycling properly.

@FlightChops Год назад

Excellent insights here - I appreciate you taking the time to share!

@rigolmgs Год назад

6:50 who on earth safety wired that probe...? ouch

@dr_jaymz Год назад

I hate those hoses. People use them when they are completely shot, then you think they are on and you can have missed the steel bit or it pokes out into your finger. They havent changed in forever.

@SmittySmithsonite Год назад

Nice landing under pressure, Steve!👍👍 Things like this are extremely common in the automotive world due to the nosedive in quality control by automakers, and their vendors. Can result in anything from erroneous gauge readings like you had here (which will also set a code and turn on the "check engine" light [aka, the MONEY light ...] in OBD-II vehicles ['96-up model years in the states] ), to leaving you stuck dead center of a 6-lane freeway / highway at rush hour. Mice also play a big part, as does wire chafing, since the bare minimum wire jacketing / insulation is used on low-bidder, SUPER THIN copper wire ... and there's about 5k miles of it to boot! The opportunity for failures is sky high today. Just thank God automakers DO NOT build aircraft!! 😂

@watashiandroid8314 Год назад

Honda jet? 😉

@SmittySmithsonite Год назад

@@watashiandroid8314 They started with off-road powered equipment, so I don't count them. 😉

@theroboticscodedepot7736 Год назад

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER trust a crimped connection! Always solder connections!

@murph9935 Год назад

actually solder connections can fail quite easily in an environment with high temperature and vibration like under the engine cowl of an aircraft. crimping is almost always the right call when an engine is involved.

@theroboticscodedepot7736 Год назад

@@murph9935 Reality says differently. This is case study in crimp failure. Just practical experience tells you crimping is highly prone to failure. I work in robotics and I can't tell you how many times I've seen crimps fail - literally thousands. I solder all my connections and never once had a failure.

@MyOtherCarIsAPlane Год назад

Nope, solder is a no-no in high vibration environments. Proper crimp connectors are great, spade connectors are pretty universally bad.

@theroboticscodedepot7736 Год назад

@@MyOtherCarIsAPlane That's absurd, just think about how many soldered connections there are in aircraft of every possible kind! When was the last time your heard about a soldered connection failure? Like NEVER! And just to be perfectly clear I'm not talking about soldering the two ends of the wires together I'm talking about soldering the wire to the connectors and letting the connectors be "Disconnectable".

@AureliusR Год назад

@@theroboticscodedepot7736 Best thing is to crimp AND solder ;)

@bearlamb5026 Год назад

the problem of your aircraft sounds very strange. I did some research a long time ago about a German aircraft. That had sort of the same problems with their sensors on oil temperature. They found out that it was their wires weren't insulated properly. And causing too much heat on the outside of the wires. They be constantly melting.. I'm not a pilot or an engineer. I'm only a flight simulator guy. Heard the story from when I was living in Germany.

@125brat Год назад

That problem you mention and the issue in this video come from not understanding the environment and employing the correct wire and insulation type, terminations, routing, joints, sleeving and supports. Ok, the builder can use whatever method he chooses, but the inspector has to ensure it all meets the requirements for whatever environment it's used in taking everything into consideration. I'm collecting parts for my impending Skyranger Nynja build and picking the inspectors brains about what is required where, what parts I can and can't use and buying the best parts I can reasonably afford. Scouring the surplus market brings up all sorts of goodies and there's no reason why pre-used salvaged items can't be used if they are in good serviceable condition. Aircraft grade cable can be found at reasonable prices and proper crimps, tools, terminal blocks etc. are available - it just needs a bit of researching. Fleabay is a good place to start, or aerojumbles😁