LS TTA bolts How and why you can torque using only a torque wrench 

Great info! Thanks for sharing this stuff, it's good to see someone actually investigate this instead of just blindly following someone else's word

Just went thru this and did the torque to angle and came up with Inner bolts: 60 ft/lbs Outer bolts: 55 ft/lbs Rods: 50 ft/lbs (lightly oiled)

Now thats what you call learning on youtube! Thank you sir!

Hey I'm back with some great news. All the torque specs you see and learn from this guy hold up strong. I ended up taking a 4.8 bottom end and putting 5.3 heads/cam together. My engine runs amazing.

I had done the same thing just yesterday and came up with 50 ft lbs as well. And found your video which just confirmed my tests. Thanks so much!

Very methodical R&D. Thank you for sharing tech info.

I agree! Your study came out the same as mine did 2 years ago! Great Video!

Listen...I build a LOT of LS engines a year. Ive been torquing the used rod bolts to 52ft lbs. with no issues. Like you that's about where found they end up TTY, and you're right TTY is not consistent. A lot of folks don't understand if you replace the bolts the rod will need to be resized. period. as far as the mains go, most of the time I replace them and use the factory TTY method, but if I use the old ones I go 65 on the inner's and 60 on the outer. So no hate here. great video!

Need more people like you. Thanks for the help. Scott

This guy is great been watching for about 3 years now

Great video I'm rebuilding a 01 firebird with a ls1 much needed advice and helpful video especially since I don't have a tta wrench or adapter that I felt I don't need. Just want to at least check my mains and rod bearings.. feel confident now.Also watched your porting of 241 heads videos very descriptive. Feel like I can do my own now. Ive built a few engines but there were older stuff like a 7.3 ford diesel and didn't have to worry about tta until doing this build. Good stuff thanks again man.

this is the only class I paid real attention and learned something that makes plenty sense to me

Great information ! Very helpful, Thanks!

I agree 100%. Union millwright for 15 years. Mechanical tech for Cat for 7. I’ve tried the angle degree on my Ls. Was very inconsistent. Did pretty much the same thing you did and feel way more comfortable with repeatability.

I found out the same way you did! The next day I went out to the shop and just for shits and giggles, I wanted to check the torque on the bottom end. And I found that nothing I torqued was consistent. So I started my Google research and just so happened to come across your video and it confirmed everything I found. Thank you for making a video on this issue for us poor bastards!

I came up with similar results on the mains. I did the torque then angle turn on the first 2 inner bolts and came up with 56 ft. lbs. Then the outers the same way and came up with 50 ft. lbs. Using my OEM bendy torque wrench I bought. Then evened them up on the rest of the bolts with using the way you said. This method worked only on the main bearing bolts on an aluminum block. Plus was only the first reuse on the bolts. The main bearing bolts, as far as I read, you can reuse them because no maintenance manual said not to. As far as I know, YES they are TTY bolts but are reusable ones. The head bolts didn't work out the same way. New bolts was used for the heads. I did the first 90 and came up with 60 ft. lbs. Then did the second round at 70 using the bendy torque wrench to see final torque for recording. The torque number stayed at 60 ft. lbs. while I did the second round to 70 degrees. Go figure. Think I got all of the bolts of the first head on the second round but not sure, LOL. If I blow a head gasket, the first thing I'm buying are the $400 head stud kit for the LS from ARP, LOL. And be done with the tty crap.

You're in Kansas City! Wish I had watched your channel sooner. I live in the Metropolitan area and rebuilding my 6.0. Almost done but I get it on wanting to be thorough. I was gonna use my old main cap bolts but after having to retorque multiple times I couldn't rest so I bought new ones. I only loosened those maybe once or twice because of distractions I been working in my driveway and sometimes people are curious and interrupt when you're working and for me it would throw me off so I would start over. I feel somewhat confident but at the same time a bit nervous. Waiting to install my heads now that I completed the short block and reinstalled it in the truck. Did it that way because that's how I took it out plus it was easier for me since Im working alone. Thanks for sharing your kniwledge.

Thanks for doing this video, and for thinking like a real mechanic. I'm rebuilding my Gen 4 6.0 L96, and have spent hours searching for info on torque specs for re-using the TTY main & rod bolts. It's unbelievable how much contradictory and misleading information is being spread by 'experts'. The overwhelming consensus is that the main & rod bolts can be re-torqued using the factory TTY spec, which will obviously cause the bolts to yield again. In other words, the permanent stretch of the bolt is now double what it was designed for, which no competent mechanic would do. If a bolt has already been torqued to yield, the only way to safely re-use the bolt is to torque it to a value that gets close to the original clamping force but stops short of causing it to yield again. Therefore the factory TTY spec should never be applied to a bolt a second time. And I know there's lots of people claiming 'the GM TTY rod & main bolts aren't really TTY so you can use the spec TTY method as many times as you like..', and that's utter nonsense unless they can back it up with some solid data proving that the bolts have no permanent stretch from the factory TTY method. Just because they don't fail sometimes when stretched twice doesn't mean it's a rational thing to do. If GM says they're TTY bolts, then it should be assumed that they stretch upon first torquing, and should never be re-torqued using the TTY spec.

Here is a good way to check and see if a TTA bolt has been yieded,Thread a nut on the bolt with your fingers the entire lenght of the threads,if the nut stops at any time the bolt has been yielded and must not be reuesed,if the nut goes all the way threw the threads the bolt has not been yielded yet.

I have learned a lot from your videos keep up the good work and remember keep God first and everything else last

Thanks for information and going to tork my 6.0 this weekend and try to get rods and pistons in and gaping done

Exactly what I found on my first ls. Went with head studs and good Torque with a snap on clicker style

I agee with you completely. thanks for the vid.

Thank you for the info -- I wanted to share my results since I just got in from wrenching on my LQ4 (Iron truck block 6L). I was using a HF Quinn digital tq adapter set at 65 ft/lbs for the final tq spec on the center 13mm main caps. I had one bolt that wouldn't hit 65. It started to feel squishy, so I yanked the bolt and eyeballed the threads -- didn't see any stretch (Granted an eyeball check probably isn't good enough, I might get out the caliper and test a few including the "stretchy" one and see if my numbers indicate a stretch). So it's possible I was being a bit of a chicken, or 65 was a bit too high for me. This was for me to confirm bearing tolerances with plastigage, so I did remove all of them and I marked the squishy bolt and bolt hole. When I reassemble later this weekend, I'm going to shoot for 59 ft/lbs because my other digital tq wrench maxes out at 59. The outers all torqued fine to 55 on the same Quinn/HF torque gauge. All of the bolt holes were cleaned out with solvent, thread chased, blown out. The bolts were cleaned in solvent and a very light coating of atf fluid was on the threads. Mine is an early block (99) and I'm not sure if the main bolts were used more than once. Just putting this out here as another data point. As always, really appreciate the info.

I have a digital Snap-on torque wrench that includes the final torque numbers in foot pounds. I torque the first bolt per spec and once I have that number in foot pounds I torque the rest of the fasteners in foot pounds.

Thank you for this video is this the same for LS1 aluminum blocks too? Or is this for the cast iron only blocks?

I did the same thing dude I torqued them to da same thing u just said and much better consistentcy

Great video sir question what did you torque the side block to main caps to ?

Great video! May i ask what kind of thread sealant did you use on your head bolts that protrude into the water galleys?seen all over the place answers online from black rtv to locktite .

Hey buddy I have a question when you torque the main studs in sequence do you do the inside bolts altogether in three steps to the final torque value and then the outside or do you bring them all up together in three steps so the inside the outside the inside the outside the inside the outside up to 60 lb like you said

What should I do about the trust bearing I’m just putting fresh bearings in a gen 3 6.0 some say just to tap the front and the back with a rubber mallet?

I also have a question if you hooked up your torque wrench to an angle finder until it clicked at 60 foot pounds it would tell you what your angle finder needs to be at right

Thank you very much

Are they no longer torqued the same due to oil on threads leaking off over night? Different leak down oil off the threads would result in different readings the next day.

Hi. Great video I’m about to put my pistons back in my 2002 5.3 and will be using the new Craftsman digital 1/2 torque wrench with built in angle, I would rather just torque all my rod bolts to 50-52ft/lbs instead of using the torque to angle, how well has this engine held up with the rod bolts torqued to 50lb/ft?

Yes sir! I agree

Man I thought chris griffin was building engines!😂😂 Thank you kind sir for sharing your knowledge!

Please help, i am disabled. So how did you get the clamping force to read out level finally? Can you remove the side bolts and install them last also OR final torque last? I'm sorry ididn't catch it or understand in the video. Yes its the only way to lightly oil bolts thread.

What about the head bolts?Do you reuse them and if you do how much do you torque them

I'm putting together a stock 6.0 LS and I'm going ur way and I have a craftsman digital torque wrench

what did you torque the mains and rods on your build and how is it running. I watch your builds

What did you torque the side bolts on the mains

I see you posted this in 2018. If you have the motor in and running have you had any issues? If so what did you find.

I personally use a digital torque meter. And you are dead on. TTA bolts do NOT provide as much force after second torque. This includes even testing with pasti-gauge. They are even worse after they are torqued and heat cycles the 1st time. If reusing the bolts, ignore the TTA specs and just torque to 65lb inner, and 55lb outer. (I know you say 50lb, which is fine too)... Outer bolts go to 18ftlbs. But GREAT VIDEO!!! Well done!!

How is engine machining done when sticking with tta bolts? Is the balancing done with used tta bolts and then final assembly done with new tta bolts? Would it be best/easier to go with new non tta bolts?

On mine now, this definitely feels like what i am used to and am comfortable with. Two hours later i have a stretched bolt and showing less than .001 on a main journal lol, putting that away for the day..

Just clarifying. These torque specs you listed are for used bolts on the main caps? Thanks.

Would it be the same with new oem bolts 15ftlbs and 85degrees

What are your results after making this video 3 years ago? Do you still feel good about your original torque values? Would you still use these values today?

I'm building a 6.0 for boost and I'm at the point of the rod bolts. Should I reuse with you method in the video or install new gm bolts and either use your method or tta because they are new

What about the torque numbers on the head bolts ?

The fact is all bolts that are torqued to a spec are in the elastic range of the torqued fastener. This new thing where we are told to go to a particular angle is some junior engineers fantasy about thread pitch and the resultant applied force which is related to the modulus of the material the fastener is made of. This angle stuff works good on paper but sucks in the shop. I am a very good mechanical engineer and understand this subject. Stick with a good click type torque wrench and build good engines.

I like the TTA method better. Here's my $.02 if anyone cares- there are a few variables that can affect the torque vs. clamp force relationship. For example, a rusty dry bolt torqued to the same spec as a clean oiled bolt will have less clamping force even though both bolts are torqued the same. The angle of rotation however has a much more consistent relationship with clamping force. For example, when you spin a bolt into a threaded hole, that bolt travels down into the hole a known distance no matter if its oiled or dry. It probably doesn't make much difference at lower torque settings (15lbs or less) so that's why the first step is to torque the bolts to a small torque setting at first- It gives a consistent starting point before different forces and frictions begin to take place on the bolt. Turning the bolt to a known angle would then "stretch" the bolt a certain distance regardless of the amount of lubrication, thread condition, torque wrench quality, etc. The end result is bolts that are stretched the same, but not necessarily torqued the same. I would rather have my bolts stretched the same. My brother prefers the torque wrench method. Both of our engines run fine.

If I’m using new bolts will the 60lb and 55lb outer torque lb work or should I go tighter?

On all my LS builds, I torque the other 60 and inner 65 ft lbs. 3 step 15, 35 then 60 or 65. Motors still going strong some are boosted 😉

I like your video on torquing I agree with you but the problem I'm having and all the controversy on which way the rods go on the crank mine don't have dots it's older gen. Ls I was told the chamfer goes to the crank side and the flat sides go together.which would make my arrows on the new pistons go opposite of each other but I see most people running theirs the same direction which is going by the rotation of the engine because the rod bearing locks would be on the torque side. I noticed yours was going the same way as everyone else. I need help

Could you explain how to torque a TTY crankshaft bolt (new)on an LS engine

EXCELLENT my friend I agree torque to angle BS lol

You are right, I have been building engines for more than 30 years, ASE ceritified engine machinist. You do talk too long, Just like all utube But i'm glad to see someone with common sense.

To reuse main bolts and rod bolts wat would be the specs on 1step to second step torque

I subscribed just because you have common sense

Did you use new rod bearings and new main bearings?

Inner cap bolts I set at 60 ft-lb, outer cap bolts to 55 ft-lb and rods at 50 ft-lb.

What you may have proven when you checked the torque readings the next day and found the large inconsistencies in readings was that the bolts needed to be replaced. Think about this: You did the same thing to each bolt. The fastener tension should be the same for each bolt. If the tension is different, then the used bolts are fatigued. The design engineers would say you need to use fresh bolts. What it appears you have done is found a shortcut which enables you to reuse the old bolts. I would bet a dime to a dognut that if you put 20 operating hours on the engine using your shortcut, that your torque readings on these bolts will not be consistent. The bolts are tired and fatigued. They will probably be a little more consistent than when you had checked the torque angle method the next day in your analysis but you are still dealing with fatigued bolts designed to stretch only so often. If the engine is very valuable, you gotta comply with the engineering specifications and replace the bolts and follow the torque angle specs. I am an old school mechanic. I would consider an acceptable shortcut to only be to replace the bolts with non-stretchers which don't fatigue. I would be concerned about reusing the stretching type and have their securing force deteriorate or even snap after the engine is in use. I am working on a Honda f22A engine that was rebuilt by somebody who did not replace the head bolts. Under stress, the engine behaves like it has a blown head gasket. Under light load under 2,500 RPM there is absolutely no symptom of head gasket problem. I believe I will find head bolts that seem undertorqued or possibly broken. I ordered new bolts, but I am considering going to non-stretching stud fastener set up. This engine has been raced and the guy who put it together probably added a few ft pounds to the torquing during assembly. The head is just not tight enough after getting 1,600 miles on the engine. It is not the assembler's technique that is the problem. It was not an overheating problem that created this symptom. I can only conclude it is the stretched bolts reused in a rebuild after 275,000 miles. Hope this helps you.

What were your torque sequences in rounds of three on your crank caps? Im definitely using your method because i too feel as you do about tta and how that way is extremely inconsistent. Thank you sir and you have a new subscriber

All torque wrenches have a +/- ftlb range they are spec'd for. Better quality wrenches are +/-2 cheaper ones are +/-6... These numbers and ranges change based on how much torque. So the more torque, the less accurate. If anyone wants to see good testing of common torque wrenches, Project Farm has a really comprehensive video of cheap Harbor Freight wrenches all the way to Snap-On wrench and shows which is the most accurate.

Does this work for gen 3 6.0???

Interesting analysis. The engineering people did not give any consideration for the engine being disassembled and reassembled. Some guys reuse the bolts and torque the piss out of them. Some guys are psychic and replace the bolts. Some guys reuse the bolts and torque them so that they behave correctly for the moment. Some guys shitcan the stretching bolts and go with standard strength.

final specs are- inner crank cap bolts: 65 lb-ft, outer crank cap bolts: 55 lb-ft, rod bolts: 50 lb-ft.

Is the engine still running

Do you put anything on the bolts

I had simular results 52.5 but had one rod bolt didnt tork! 15ftlb then 185*

18 lbs on the side bolts.

All of this torque to yield and use only once seems to me to be over thought engineering. I drought that the metallurgy of the bolts is any different than a regular grade eight bolt. It is critical that the bolt threads and hole threads are clean and have the same very light oil covering them.

65 inner, 55 outer, 50 Rod? 6.0 LQ4? New Main Bolts just for comfortable measure.

don't reuse the stock GM head bolts ,they are very affordable from Texas Speed

Wait how tf else do you torque bolts if not with a torque wrench?

Who uses multiple different torque wrenches to torque down the same bolts in the same area of the same engine? All your bolts are going in at the same time, you're going to be torquing down all of these fasteners at the same time. Use the same torque wrench... Second, get an electronic torque wrench that shows you the angle. It's not hard to use, and they are way more accurate than any mechanical torque wrench. Also you can use ARP Hardware instead, and get torque to yield fasteners.

I’m not blowing up.👍 I agree TTA is just stupid

Why not include a test, torque it till the bolt fails.Everything is rubber, bolts included.

Just as an aside, with studs a torque spec is not needed if the desired fastener stretch is known. All you have to do is zero an indicator on the end of the stud and tighten the nut until the the desired stretch is attained. I have a book from when I was in high school in the 70s showing a shop that built Indy car engines using this method, in one photo of a rod cap being tightened, it looked like 3/8" dia stud with an indicator on the end of the stud and a common end wrench turning the nut. The caption stated the nut was tightened until the indicator showed .006" of stretch on the stud. They used this method because it is more accurate. Torque is an approximation that should arrive at close to a given dimension of stretch, but measuring the actual stretch makes measuring torque unnecessary. Again, this method only works with studs.

Your study is fine, not knocking it, but to be truly accurate you would measure bolt stretch, not torque. If torque was consistent, that’s the way they would spec them. Comparing to torque is a flawed goal

Don't be cheap. Buy new head bolts. Rod bolts are still good as long as you can get them to torque down. I go to 49 foot pounds on rods on hundreds of ls motors without a single failure. Maincap bolts are reusable with no problem. Those rods he had in that shortblock are junk. We only use gen 4 rods in all of our motors.

So maybe the TAM is poor quality?

I do the same thing tta is not safe in my book

I just used your method and broke a stud

here’s some annoying fEdvack - which you’ve probley considered, 0th of all - after 199s of years, no one can predict the weather(yes that’s quite exactly relevant) - meaning none of these tta engineers no there ass from a hole in the ground. & 1st - inner threads being worn reduces, or relaxes in 5-10 minutes maybe, the grab power(& retested torque, from which ever method it was). 2nd the amount of ‘light oil’ you put I threads changes torque from when what ever method applied. 3rd?- all the torques mentioned by the ‘experts’ vary, for example - I’m thinking if reducing my timing cover & all that’s beneath it. there are fasteners on all the bolts that know one knows what are, no one knows if they are TTY bolts, tta bolts, or what the suggested torque is- from experts I hav heard 17’ lbs - 37’ lbs, - & 15, then another round at 15, then 60• trn.. cause no one knows their S from hOl in groOnd. 4th?- life is annoyingly s2pid in EVRE field(obVSlE cause Ppl R iDats), & fInLE 5th, there’s no such thing as a tta fastener/bolt in the 1st place.. it’s just a method(& smRTpNts boltwrd)👋😒 let me know how much you charge to redU that hole timing chain side, it’s leaking oil & chain rattles, I figure Y not jst replace evREthing.. & I live in KC aswL.

Dude listen enough about whatever get to the damn point

You talk to much... Not trying to be rude but damn get the the topic you described in the video

Smart fellow..