First, I want to thank Philip for taking an hour out of his day to do this. Second, before anyone complains, USE AD BLOCKER IF YOU DONT LIKE ADS. RU-vid auto generates them on videos this long. Thanks for watching!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Don't let AP shame you. Keep those dad jokes coming. 👍Great discussion guys. It is amazing how the Chain of Dogs ending never loses it's impact, even when you know what's coming.
Wow, Philip! I loved how you described fantasy genres (high fantasy, grim-dark, etc.) distinguished by underlying moral systems in the world-building. I had some grasp of that, but the way you described it in this video made something click for me. Great discussion!
I read Deadhouse Gates about a year ago, but upon finally finishing The Crippled God, I had the overwhelming urge to go back and listen to the whole series through audiobooks. The second experience is eye-opening, as many details and nuances are becoming clearer. The journey and conclusion of Deadhouse Gates, really affected me this time around and even the intermingled conversations between characters, which somewhat stifled my enjoyment the first time around, have become bright and memorable because each seems to reveal new insights into personalities or the histories.
Re: Grimdark or not - In the prologue, there's an image of a that dog is described as "near death but not near enough." You can say that the dogs symbolize the empire itself or later maybe just the refugees on the Chain of Dogs, which you could say is wounded and dying a long, slow death. It helps set that bleak tone for the rest of the book. In the last chapter, when Mappo sees Truth taking care of Bent and Roach, the dogs are also literally near death but not near enough. This time, though, it's different because Mappo has the elixirs and heals them. It's such a small gesture of compassion, but it reverses the tone from the prologue. Maybe it's too late for the literal Chain of Dogs, but it might not be too late for the survivors. The whole book becomes a piece that says compassion is still available, it's not too late for a sick and wounded world to start healing. It's also great because in the prologue, it's just one dog. In the last chapter, it's shifted to two dogs, who have formed an unlikely friendship, a savage Wickan cattle dog and a foofy Hengese lapdog. That can also symbolize so many of the unlikely friendships in the story, like Icarium and Mappo. The foofy lapdog has transformed into a fierce cattle dog, which can symbolize the servants of the nobles who joined the Seventh, or, in a kind of role reversal, the Wickans who became Malazan and the Malazans who became Wickan. And these are the two dogs who fought the hardest at the Fall, so they also represent the courage and loyalty so lacking in Pormqual. I could go on but there's a lot more going on symbolically than two dogs. Erikson is absolutely brilliant at packing so many layers of meaning into that one tiny scene. By using symbolism, he sneaks it all into your brain without you even realizing it. That one scene (along with the epilogue) changes the tone of the whole book.
There are threads of kindness and compassion woven throughout these books in a way that I feel is lacking in true grimdark with something like ASOIAF. One that really stood out to me is Kalam saving Captain Keneb and his family, who is then around at the end of the Chain of Dogs to help Duiker (who is himself at the very back of the refugees pushing them forwards and rescuing a child), he then finds a place of safety for the child and is going back to tell Duiker when he hears something about Mallick Rel that makes him go to the captain of Aran's watch and persuade him to remain guarding the city (and thereby preventing it falling uncontested and the refugees being slaughtered) Several small acts of kindness build throughout the story to save thousands of innocent lives.
To my mind the reason Felisin didn't need to open the book was to subvert the book and ritual as a mcguffin, where that technicality would be what makes Felisin Shaik Reborn, when the message I got from the book is that her experiences throughout the book (probably under Hood's influence) are what really made her into Shaik Reborn
Thank you, gentlemen! I appreciate the time and dedication you’ve both given to support us readers along our journey. The last 200 pages of this book were phenomenal. While I still have many questions, I feel more confident that Erikson will provide the answers when the time is right. This series is unique and challenging. There have been moments when I wasn’t sure if I’d continue, but he sold me in the final act. The battle scene with the butterflies floored me! Thank you for defending Felisin, and shedding light on the reason for her behavior. I found her relationship with Heboric to be very gripping. They went through so much! The scene with Kalam and Laseen was also a standout moment. Looking forward to book 3! Thanks again!
I think its something Erikson does really well. Showing you different perspectives/recollection of events which give you a whole other way of thinking about it!
Man Philip talking about his first read sums up my experience so well. I'm hoping I have the same experience of connecting more to the characters as I get used to the world and style of storytelling.
The epilogue though ..... a horizon filled with crows made me smile (think it was the epilogue anyway read it like 10 years ago) that image will stay with me forever
This has been one of my favourite conversations so far. I enjoyed it tremendously. I have yelled "Yes!!!!" at Philip so many times! It also helped me decide on my overall opinion of this book. And I end up agreeing, this is one of the best in fantasy literature. Most excellent. ❤
Yay Mike and Philip! Thanks for standing up for my girl, Felisin. People who are traumatized and feel betrayed, will do awful self destructive things to escape the pain, and will lash out and be defensive. My first read: About 1/3 through GotM quit. Try again, 1/2 through quit. Stop, get frustrated. Wonder why everyone on r/fantasy is evangelizing this so much. Find Malazan read along on tor.com. Realize I am used to Sanderson and basically reading a videogame tutorial level/Dragon Ball Z. Follow along. Finally, make it through GotM. Start Deadhouse Gates. Felisin gets culled and goes onto the ship. I am now absolutely, positively hooked.
We are watching this as we speak, and I'm so happy to see another friendly and smart conversation! You're both so warm and kind, not competitive about it, and funny, that it melts my heart :) I was all confused and lost the first time I've read these books too :) and even after I finished the series. Seeing some very competitive people about it online, it made me feel pretty stupid for not knowing every single detail and for missing a lot of detail also. Watching your very human and warm approach makes me feel good about it :) I love the kindness you both show to Felisin too. Tremorlor - I find that fascinating, I loved those pages! Bottom line - you guys were absolutely adorable! Thanks for the video and looking forward to see you both again! :) P.S. - Anomander Mike - super fun hahahah
Great discussion. I finished the book last night and as I said in the discord after completing the book, I’m definitely emotionally invested now! Looking forward to Memories of Ice.
Big fan of your content & Phillips. There are so many events/characters/archs etc that I can't wait for you both to disucss. I'd be super interested in seeing these videos on a reread some years down the line! Really enjoyed the video and big thanks for the community that your readalong has created & the amount of Malazan content I now have to watch! Something I've been missing with Malazan has been people to discuss it with a place to discuss it all. I've allways felt pacing is something Erikson has done intentionally. The slow burn of the chain of dogs to make you empathise with what the characters are going through and the same with Kalam on the ship. Both the readers and Kalam are waiting for something to happen, its taking longer than expected etc & finally the "convergence" of the plots in each book.
I have been looking forward to this video for the past couple weeks and it delivered. Great stuff. Big thanks to Mike for hosting this read along. And thanks to Dr. Chase for his thoughts and input. I can't wait to get back into Malazan!
Hmm I think Philip finally reminded me, somewhere around the 27th minute mark, what was that deep change that reading Erikson's books has done to me. It's the ability to appreciate the little things in life. It's such a known phrase. Perhaps it's even overused. But it is also woefully inadequate in its ability to describe the profound feeling of being able to just stop and have a look inside yourself and realize that living makes you content. Maybe it was just the right developmental life stage, that I read those books in, but I kinda think that it actually wasn't. Cause I knew about this state of mind before I've read them, I understood stuff like all the little ironies that life throws one's way, but only through connecting to these characters could I really experience being appreciative of it for the first time and I've remembered my lessons well. I truly believe that this is one of those works that can turn adults into actual adults - turn people into mature beings. And I also believe that some (not all) people have to quit it because they instinctively resist being reared like that.
Great video Thanks for helping me understand this book a bit better than if I was by myself Can't wait to see the series come together as I keep reading
I'm not a fast reader and I cannot keep up with the schedule but I just finished Deadhouse Gates and was wrecked by it. It was wonderful wrapping up that reading by listening to Anomander Mike and Professor Chase. Thank you both and I'm glad you are putting this content on your channel. I will follow it at my own pace and enjoy hearing whether my reactions to the books align or are different than yours.
Really nice podcast on DG, if The Chain of Dogs storyline doesn't pull you around into being an Erikson fan, then it's simply not your type of story telling. Oh and anyone who spends their time repeatedly glorifying Ursula K. LeGuin gets my seal of approval. I remember reading the Earthsea (at the time) trilogy when I was twelve and being convinced that I'd never read a better set of books within the genre. Now, more years later than I care to think about, that opinion may no longer ring true, but... damn does it ever come close. The mixture of philosophy, plot, descriptive writing, stylistic mastery and character work she gifted us across three short novels is utterly breathtaking.
I watched the video anyways. I’m so far away from reading this series, until I come around to it I will have forgotten everything said in this video. I just love Mike and Philip together.
I think the most subtle heart crushing moment in this book is with Duiker and his lower. The great and memorable quote from him is the: ''Unnamed soldier is a gift. The named soldier--dead, melted wax--demands a response among the living...a response no-one can make. Names are no comfort, they're a call to answer the unanswerable. Why did she die, not him? Why do the survivors remain anonymous--as if cursed--while the dead are revered? Why do we cling to what we lose while we ignore what we still hold? Name none of the fallen, for they stood in our place, and stand there still in each moment of our lives. Let my death hold no glory, and let me die forgotten and unknown. Let it not be said that I was one among the dead to accuse the living'' Amongst his effects they found a piece of cloth with only "Sa'yless Lorthal" written on it, the name of his marine and never read.
I’m such an idiot !! I remember her giving him the cloth and then forgot about it! At the end I was like wtf is that and who’s name is that. Makes total sense now lol
Loving the interview Mike, Dr. Chase is an awesome guest. I originally burned out on Malazan book 8 as I power read the series in a couple months, but I think I'm going to jump back in when you get to Book 8, maybe earlier to catch up.
Enjoyed this chat. You guys filled in some gaps and added a little continuity I has missed. I *did* audiobook this one, but stayed at 1x speed. I definitely did miss some stuff; had to do a few rewinds, but still didn't catch it all - so easy for the mind to wander on the commute. However, I jumped back into the kindle version for the last section - right before Coltaine's liberation, and I'm glad I did. What a punch that last few dozen pages packed. Looking forward to your next collaboration, folks.
If I am allowed to, I would like to repeat a point I made in a comment I left on Riddhima's video on "Deadhouse Gates" and later Allen's spoiler discussion (sorry to Prof. Chase, who was part on that chat, for beating a horse to death here): Riddhima mentioned how often Erikson used the color "ochre", and I felt that this was just one prime example of how Erikson uses his expertise as an archaeologist to really effectively give Seven Cities a truely ancient history and give us hints that it's culture is older than dirt (almost quite literal!): In some of the earliest undisputed human burial sites we know of, the Skhul & Qafzeh caves in Israel dating back around 100,000 years ago, archaeologists discovered human skeletal remains stained with red ochre. This use of red ochre has also been found in several later stone age sites, and is thought to have played an important role in some of the earliest human rituals ever.
Excellent talk guys, you talked about so much important and emotional stuff but still a heck of a lot of fun 🤓 Just keep on rolling with it Mike, I'm happy you're appreciating it as much as you do already - and it will get even better 🤘
Oh man, this book made me openly weep for about an hour. Erikson really knows how to destroy a reader's soul, lol! Keep up the awesome content you guys! Let's grow this community. Much love! Hood'sBonyPrang, out!
Great discussion. Thanks for touching on the online negativity towards Felisin. I was a bit taken aback by it myself. I found her character arc very realistic and appropriate to her life experiences before and during the story.
New to the channel, but I’ve watched a bunch of your reviews and the quote “a bandaid on a tourniquet” is an all time encapsulating quote for this book especially.
I read book 1 and half of book 2 and had no idea what was going on. I went on google and looked up tons of shit and started over and book 2 is one of my favorite books I have ever read. I actually cried at the end and am so glad I stuck with it. I named a pet after a character and I kept those characters dear throughout the whole series.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yes I loved it! Philip, you made a great case for this not being grimdark but I think the debate really comes down to how we define grimdark, not whether this is or isn't grimdark. Deadhouse Gates certainly is both _grim_ and _dark_ , but if you define the genre "grimdark" as existentialist like you do, then Malazan is not that. If you define it as Mike does by its bleakness, then it is. Who comes up with the labels for these things anyhow. I prefer the label _fantasy_ or just _fiction_ 🤣.
@@Danny_Matson Sticking with just fiction as the label makes life easier in some ways, but I suspect the marketers of books would object, which partly answers your question about where these labels come from. Thanks, Danny!
Thanks for the advice, I think my biggest problem with the series so far is that disconnect, but now I think I’m gonna go with a calmer approach. See if that helps.
Love these discussions! I was definitely one of the people who didn't like Felisin at first but also just the change of cast was such a hard thing for me after devouring GoTM. Deadhouse Gates is still amazing even though. I have to agree with Dr. Philip Chase, this series is a masterpiece. I wish it was as quick to read as LoTR!
I just finished this book and Mappo and Icarium arc was by far my favorite as well. The entire time I was just waiting to get back to them. They're the best.
Really good conversation and a lot of good points. I am doing a re--read and tried following along, but I couldnt wait and finished MoI about a week ago. I only have to say that I hope you aren't building MoI up super high in expectations, so you maybe end up disapointed. It is a really good book, but I personally liked DG a little more. There is also a little more of the campfire and military stuff that you say you arent as big of a fan of in these reviews. But the good news is, even for me who is someone who disagrees with the community about MoI, the next 2 books in the series has some of the best stuff, and the series as a whole is still really awesome. Stick with it, let it wash over and Enjoy!
about mappo chosing to save icarium instead of feeding him to the azath... i have so much to say about that. but alas it's spoilers for the entire series - i wish some of the vet youtubers would start to make vids about the series long arcs/themes to discuss that stuff. but this was a great time 10/10 would spend an hour listing again anytime.
New to the channel and just subscribed. I read malazan back then but didn't finish it yet since i'm reading wheel of time the second time around and i'm in knife of dreams. I'll watch some more of your videos when i'm in malazan again! Or maybe try to see if you have some videos of other series i've read.
The scene that touched me the most was when Captain Lull told duiker that he somehow sentenced the slaves to death when they became soldiers, because their chances of survival were minimal as part of the Seventh. And then at the end a few steps away of Aren the soldiers with their amazing fist fell..
I think the negative response to Felisin is partially explained by people trying to distance themselves from her situation. If she's annoying or it's her fault her situation doesn't hit as hard.
I think one can have compassion for Felisin's plight and still distaste for what she does to her companions and her role in the Apocalypse. It's a fine line. But to assume victimhood removes responsibility is ultimately destructive to community. That's hard to walk. But part of being human is weighing the individual vs community. And note, I'm being intentional about community vs society. Spoiler.... I also factor into this something Ganoes says about his family in book3. Even *he* recognizes House Paran as broken people *before* everything.
I finished this book today, got a bit behind during exam period but finished in time though! Felt really confused at some parts of this book, but less than Gardens of the Moon, so progress? Really enjoyed the parts with Kalam and Felisin.
I am towards the end of the video and only now I noticed the "Anomander Mike" name tag! So funny! Great conversation! I wish I could fast forward time to see your opinions on MoI :D But I must be patient *sigh*
I just finished this book via audio book! And its funny that you guys bring up not thinking its a good idea and I have to agree. I will say however that I was able to get through the entire Wheel of Time, Stormlight Archive, First Law and others via audiobook and love them all and retain as much as I needed to enjoy it. Even Gardens of the Moon was not too bad with audiobook but this one was really tough. I was able to follow the Felisin story pretty well, as well as Mappo and Icariam and I really liked both of those arcs. I missed almost every revelation Fiddler had though. My biggest regret, is somehow not being able to follow what seems to be the biggest arc in the book with the chain of dogs. I don't know why, but I had so much trouble staying tuned in to the historian's view point :( . There were so many names, so many soldiers and preists and warlocks and this and that. It just felt like they were walking across the continent for who knows what reason and I found myself bored almost the whole time. The most memorable part for me was List and how he gave up his life when people were pushing Duiker around (if thats even what happened) I couldn't tell if Coltain was good or bad. I couldn't tell if Squint was doing something good or not. I didn't know who the enemy was and what anyone's goals really were. The ending really was fantastic though and did a lot to bring me back into it. I felt like I could visualize the entire thing and as tragic as it was, it really made me feel something and have me looking forward to the next book. Audiobooks just fit my lifestyle so much better so I will continue that way, and if it means missing important details, I can always come back to videos like this to get caught up. Thanks for this video! It was pretty much exactly what I was looking for.
I read the series as it first came out, and I remember being thrown initially by the big switch of characters and storyline. But as I read, I grew to love this book. Not only is it fantastic writing, it showed me that however big I thought the series was going to be, I had underestimated it. As to the Chain of Dogs, yes, it's devastating, but I loved it as a story. Stories don't have to be happy.
It isn't necessarily having read military fantasy, but also having read any military history. The representation of the fog of war, the disconnect between generals.and grunts and how soldiers spend their downtime is very accurate and might seem boring or uninteresting. That was funny talking about the body count of Star Wars or the Sil. It is like comparing A Bridge to Far vs. Private Ryan where the violence is almost sanitized vs. what actually happened. For me was the realism and accuracy was what drew me in. Also that you are expecting a big showdown between Laseen and Kalam that ends in ... a conversation. But Erickson throws you a bone and you still get a fight. Like Lucy and the football, he often leads you up to an anticipated event, then something completely different happens. Or it will just happen in a paragraph or a few lines out of nowhere. But seeds have been planted and many will bear fruit.....eventually.
This book basically traumatized me. Lol, this was the most challenging book I ever read; mentally, it hurts you to read it. I wish I would've started this series with Midnight Tides.
I know I'm 2 years behind but I just finished Deadhouse Gates. Enjoying the series but definitely getting the whole "wtf is going on" stuff at times. Planning on reading the whole thing but also taking my time
an interesting thing for me with DG was i have read the series several times, but i would always skip DG because the first time reading it, i found it so brutal i just never wanted to go there again. but last year i decided to listen to the books on audible and i decided i was going to listen to DG. my first "re-read" of it since i first read it in...probably 2005. i was shocked at the amount of information in this book. lol. i was all like OH YEAH this is when we find out this thing or that thing!! lol. also...Fid is my favorite.
Man this book took well past places of tears. I cried out all of them and then it got sadder. Also I have been much more understanding towards Felisin on my second read through. Could be the 8ish years of growing up in between.
I avoided Malazan for years - people kept saying how it was for advanced readers, dense and complex but ultimately rewarding - which sounded to me like it was pretentious twaddle that literary snobs pretend to like to show their superior tastes and understanding (my own prejudices from schooldays in Ireland having Joyce and Heaney shoved down our throats surfacing there LOL). But I trust Mike as we have very similar book tastes. Just finished Deadhouse Gates and started Memories of Ice and I am totally hooked. Sure there are *lots* of mysteries we have to RAFO but how is that really any different from ASOIAF or Stormlight? Erikson has a gift for making us really care about these characters without even noticing how much we are becoming invested. The prose isn't difficult at all - what is actually going on might sometimes be confusing but that's deliberate worldbuilding because we don't have full context yet. Mappo and Icarium's tragic friendship was very moving, everything about the Chain Of Dogs was brutal and epic, and move aside Szeth - Kalam is now the the ultimate badass assassin. And I definitely noticed Philip's point about the underlying message of empathy, compassion, friendship giving hope in the middle of grim times for the world. These books are GREAT.
The thing that bothers me is how dismissive people are of Baudin, and his acts. Did Felisin actually save Heboric, or did she believe she saved him? We only see the story from Felisin's perspective, so we never really know how much she actually accomplished. Baudin explains that she didn't actually save them, that Baudin saves Heboric despite Felisin not caring...
I definitely understand why felisin is the way she is because of the abuse and trauma that she's been through and she definitely would fit in with the first law universe
I'm qn audio book listener. This series is very hard to listen to. I like yo listen and do other things and that is not possible with these. I'm probably going to re read books 1 and 2 before I start book 3
I read this book in 4 days by reading during lunch break, audiobook on my 1 hour commute, and reading after dinner every day and i really regret it. I didnt miss anything... except for the entire purpose of the story LOL. I finished it and just felt like wow...that was pretty lackluster. I was just reading for the plot alone essentially. It wasnt until i saw philip and AP's video + this one that i realized "oh shit, this books about the themes...i should have taken my time and tried to really feel and appreciate what was happening to these characters rather than just blowing through it". Whoops!
The way that Dr. chase talks about Coltains death makes me feel like a terrible person because I had literally zero of those feelings. When I read that scene I was like "ok so this warleader sacrifices himself for the refugees, that's feels pretty in-character, ok moving on what's happening next with everyone else" 😂 Also the warlock like writhing on the ground trying to gouge her eyes out because they wouldn't release his soul, the whole time I was like "ok thats a little dramatic" 😅 Am I a monster!?!
