Is Jon Snow an epic swordsman? ASOIAF Analysis 

To be honest, I think its quite shocking that people take Jons accomplishments as a fighter as this sign of him being this super talented ultra instinct epic warrior, when the books make a big deal out of the fact that his initial skill is due to his privileged upbringing, especially since its an important part of Jons entire character progression. After all, Jon starts off pretty similar to characters Tyrion at the beginning, he is a man from an extremely priviliged and wealthy background who is stuck inside a self-pitying mindset due to the personal hardships and lack of belonging he faced his noble upbringing, which makes him rather self-centered and blind to the personal struggles of the people around him. He is blind to his personal privilige which he still enjoys as a bastard on the wall, which makes him arrogant and antagonistic towards those he deems below himself. Donal Noye calling him out on his bullshit and making him aware that he is not some special epic swordsman but was instead just acting as some privileged bully is probably one of the most important moments in all of Jons PoV chapters, because it gives him the one skill that makes him special and stand out compared to most other characters in the series: compassion. Donal teached Jon humility but also awareness of his own privilege, which in turn inspires him to stop using this privilege to stand out among others by putting them down, but instead starting to lead by lifting others up. After that he starts to train the other recruits, which makes them stronger fighters better prepared for the wars to come and in turn looking up to Jon and become his friends. And we see that the people who were antagonistic towards Jon when he was beating them down before become his staunchest and most loyal brothers once he starts to lead them with him. And Donals lesson really guides Jon through his entire story so far. He uses this compassion towards others who didn't have it as good as him and his decission to rather be somebody who lifts others up instead of pushing them down later on with the Wildlings, he decides to help and support them instead of just crush them down, which in turn creats much more allies for the wars to come, who bolster the defenses of the wall. Jons entire story is not about him becoming the best and most epic fighter, it is a journey towards him becoming a great leader. And in this story, leadership beats swordmanship. We see it as early as A Game of Thrones, when Robb, a 15 year old boy, bests Jaime Lannister, who was at this point the very best of the best fighters in Westeros because while Robb was an inexperienced and at best average fighter, he turns out to be an extremely gifted battle tactician (even if he ended up being an atrocious general).

Yes, I definitely think that Jon is a good fighter for a 13/14/15 year old, but most actual adults with a lick of martial training could probably annihilate a kid who has also had training.

The Donnal Noy reading was excellent!

The idea of Jon Snow fighting Loras Tyrell actually made me laugh.

Great to see these videos, man. Honestly, you more than anyone has made me want to take part in this community again

so this has always kind of been my opinion. john is like 14 when the books start and like this video said has been training all his life. i compare it to a period of my martial arts career around the same age. your average 14 year old doesnt have 10 months martial arts experience let alone 10 years. i used to whoop on them in sparring. my trainers began to notice and started having me spar with the older kids and some adults. these were people who had as much experience and in many cases much more experience than i did. and they were bigger and older. i got whooped. alot. badly. but eventually after half a decade of those experiences i began to develop into some one who could reliably people with as much experience as me maybe even a bit more. and occasionally depending on the particulars i could even beat some truly impressive fighters. i feel like john is on a similar path, tho obviously more intense and what not. like he is in an interesting time in life where every loss to high level opponents makes it more likely that he wont lose to the next one. especially since he keeps living, sorta. like he has fought in a battle and lived. gone toe to toe with great warriors and lived. even dead men and lived. eventually if he keeps this up, he will actually start winning.

The reading of the chapters was fantastic. Love these videos

I’m at work doing labor, paperwork, etc. saw this and let out a victorious shout. Keep up the solid content man, it’s great.

So I think the answer to this is he’s a little above average for a trained fighter. He’s said to be better than Robb but shown not to be as good as Mance Rayder.

I just can't forget that scene where Ramsey called Jon "the greatest swordsman the North has ever seen" Like bruh, when was that established! 😂

it's great that he's not a mary sue. George is strong for putting Jon through many growth and learning experiences

Jon, facing against a much stronger opponent, disarms and brings it to a grapple. It shows enough skill and calm that Jon can deal with difficult fights but there is a lot of luck for him at this point.

Good video, and from the text you are 100% correct sir. However, once you get into the top 20% of any physical activity. The skill difference and quality difference between the 20th percentile and the 1st percentile is not a world of difference or a chasm but a good leap. I would argue that John is at least in the top 20% of men underarms in Westeros. This is the equivalent of you walking up to an NBA player who rides the bench and because he's not LeBron James or Kevin Durant say "he ain't shit". Because some fans from his college days and high school days keep hyping. And I would say to both of you; the seasons not over yet and his career is not over yet we'll wait and see, Just let the man play ball.

Put it this way. Jon is as good as an untested 14 year old can be. Killing somebody or having somebody try to kill you certainly changes your temperament. Before the wall, he had none of that temperament, and even throughout the series, he's still trying to understand it as his combat experience increases. It's battles that make the fighter. A kid with raw talent and a college education is an asset, but they don't have the same practical knowledge as a veteran of their field. It's the same scenario. Speaking from my own experience, I used to think I was a decent writer (not fighter, but it rhymes). Now that I've gone pro, I can see that I had tremendous raw talent with a number of practical, but fixable, shortcomings, and very little guidance. I think Jon's probably similar.

Random Internet Guy I am shocked and dismayed you haven't been plucked up to do all the audio books. You are a treasure! For real, I like your voices.

By this stage he wields a magical sword that renders other forms of steel obsolete, he may be good not great, just good,but he is cheating, which is ok and require when fighting for your own survival. Neat video

John Snow is what? 15? when he fights Mance Rayder, he eveb recognizes he has a long way to go to be a good fighter, I think any book reader would tell you John has a long way to go, that doesn't mean he can't get there, he has been thru a lot in a couple of years, thru many things most teen agers can't even begin to imagine, heck he is even dead now, but I think when he revives he is gonna be a wiser person and he will learn to. measure himself, he will ger there I am sure.

He’s above average in the books and rapidly improving.

There's more to Book!Jon than simply an above average swordsman. He also has a kind of super-human strength that triggers at certain moments in the book when he is in a rage: - Takes 3 Nights Watch to subdue him when he attacks Alliser Thorne - Grabs the mane of a bolting and unsaddled horse with one hand, and leaps onto it's back. - Absolutely destroys Iron Emmett in a sparring match. - Lifts Alliser Thorne off the ground by the neck. - Wrenches an 8ft+ spear out of frozen ground by himself while 4 men struggle to pull one out.

#NormalizeThePhraseBadDragonShow

Don't forget, Mance Rayder is really Arthur Dayne. Ray/Day, it all makes perfect sense. That's why Jon, the most badass swordsman in the whole world lost to Mance

The passage with Donel Noye got me thinking. Why is he even at the Wall? The story is he caught an axe during the siege, but we never hear of any battles between the two sides. None prior to it, and no sorties during. And even if there was a battle of some kind, why would you send your armor to the front lines? And even if there was a battle and that's where he got the injury, why go to the Wall? None of it makes any sense The only thing that I can think of is that he was with Gawen Wylde, and got the injury as they were caught trying to sneak out. We no Gawen died in his cell, but maybe Donel survived until Ned lifted the siege & was then sent to the Wall?

Daily reminder that Jon Snow is also still dead.

I think Jon is supposed to be that good at this point in the story - originally George planned to have Jon be young and inexperienced as shown in the passages you referenced but then we were supposed to have the “5 year gap” before A Dance with Dragons - coming back after that 5 year gap Jon would have developed into one of the best swordsman in Westeros. Since George couldn’t make the gap work, Jon just had get really good in an unbelievable time frame and we will have to suspend our disbelief.

The breakdown is great, comparisons to Kramer being the best fighter in his peer group even better, but I just came here to say the real winner for me is whoever drew that caricature of Sam Tarly.

Excellent video. I've never understood why people think Jon is a badass, save maybe for that one scene where he "blacks out" during a spar. Mance man-handling Jon is just straight up proof that Jon's alright, but he's not even close to high level. He's, what, seventeen? Shit.

Jon = best ever cuz reasons

Thanks for the great video as always!

I mean everyone in the show is better than their book counterpart. Show Ned kepts up with Jamie. Show Jon has more experience than book Jon and it seems that most of the great northern swordsmen are dead except small Jon and Jon not alot of people to choose when it comes to greatest fighter in the north. Jon also fights Wilding which do fight different from your average southern knight.

I think GRRM understands how greatness in combat works and he seems to be setting up Jon to be a great warrior in his era. It is very rare that there is someone who is unanimously regarded as the best of an era in martial arts. There are all sorts of factors that go into this and GRRM is constantly playing with these ideas. For example Loras Tyrell is widely regarded as a great tourney knight but many question his ability to fight in true combat and he himself considers his brother to be a better fighter. Jamie is regarded as a great fighter but loses to Brienne because he is half starved and is chained up. No northerners are regarded as great fighters but the north famously doesn't have tournaments but they are generally regarded as good in melees and as fierce warriors. The hound is billed as really good but loses a bunch of times to Thoros of Myr in the melee presumably because of the flaming sword. Authur Dayne is considered the greatest knight ever but apparently loses to Ned Stark and crew. Bronn who is just some random mercenary defeats Ser Vargis who is the captain of a royal guard and presumably a skilled warrior. The mountain isn't considered a great fighter by anybody but all the same everyone is afraid to face him in combat. The point is that you can't really say who is the greatest swordsman/warrior in a vacuum. There are many parallels to this in real life. You could take someone who competes in target shooting and they may or may not be competent in real battlefield scenario. You can't compare UFC fighters to boxers. Being regarded as great doesnt always equate to true greatness. What makes a great warrior is accomplishing great deeds and earning the respect of others. You have to choose thr right battles, know your strengths and weaknesses, be moral, etc. Jon is likely going to do these things because he is a main character and GRRM has given him a fancy sword and keeps putting him up against people who are considered great warriors.

So like you have a future as an audiobook reader, this was great again!

Your reading is good, very engaging. Do you have any full readings?

Excuse me sir, I read the books in high school, and I can assure you that Jon, and by extension me, were completely badass in every way. Also we get chicks, or at least like we got one chick okay!

Jon Snow is a sword fighing Nepo Baby.

Jon did grow up in a castle - lots of practice and he knows that he's pretty good, but he also learns there is always someone faster and stronger, and you have to outwit and outplan them. As for Loras, well he's good at the lists and he is brave - or maybe he is trying to prove that he is not his dad, who never shows up to battles in time, and he got himself hurt badly and might die.

Hey what do you think ser Duncan the tall ranks overall? I know he never quite reached his peak in his books but I think towards the end of his story he’s seasoned enough to be in the top tiers. He’s a man who was truly educated through the school of hard knocks.

Jon could bear everyone because of ghost

Having some training probably puts Jon in the top 10% (possibly the top 1%) of fighters, particularly when he's wielding Longclaw. You don't need to be the best warrior in Westeros to win in a fight, you just need to be better than your opponent - and Jon usually is.

The idea that Jon may be an epic swordsman is new to me. I always thought that he was well-trained for his age, maybe decently talented, and almost entirely untested.

I've never read the books, But I'm greatly considering it because of your awesome reading sir!.

Jon Snow is constantly grinding

His Mom was a warrior, his mom was Arya before she was the faceless assassin, and we all by now know his pops history apple don’t fall from the tree?? Laughing tree?? I’m logging off, KING IN THE MF’ing Norf…

Jon might’ve been blessed with same natural talent but unlike Lores tyrell or Jamie Lannister but in terms of swordplay he doesn’t have anyone who truly push him as by his own admission he’s better at swordplay than Robb in book 1 and likely Theon as well he gets humbled by donal noyal but that doesn’t change that even after training them they still can’t push him it’s not untill his fight with qhorin halfhand who’s one of the best fighters at the wall that Jon starts to train harder and Jon starts sparring with iron emmet where Jon thinks that he gives as good as he gets most of the time anyway Jon fights mance who used to be the best fighter at the wall atleast according to qhorin but mance is disquised as rattleshirt so jon underestimated him and afterwards jon thinks if he was using longclaw instead of sword and shield he would have won

song in the background?

If you ignore what people say and actually look at performance, Jon is actually the greatest

Bronn!?!? Snow is a puddle of blood. Bronn.

This video is basically Ramsey Bolton's comment in youtube form

There's glamor involved with hid fight with mance rader. I also believe that man is sword has some glamor to it. I think that's why people believe the sword is actually Dawn.

I'd say he is top 10 among the watch, which isn't really saying much but... Mance was "the best of us, and the worst as well." now, that is probably about personality more than prowess, but we do know he killed at least 3 rival kings beyond the wall and had at least a decade of real combat experience. he was probably among the very best of the watch, before the rest of the best got killed in the great ranging. Iron Emmit is slightly better than jon and is considered the best swordsman in the watch by the people he served with at eastwatch (presumably even before the great ranging as he was master-at-arms there). We don't know his background but he is a full grown man still in his physical prime, not a teenager like Jon. I would say Jon has the potential to be top tier, but is right now, at the age of 16, about average for a lightly blooded knight.

I do have to say, there is a line in the books that makes you think Mance is one of the better swordsmen. It's when Jon asks the Halfhand, "How good was he (Mance)?" And The Halfhand says, "He was the best of us.....and the worst"

While I do agree with the overal point of Jon not being nearly as skilled as fans like to claim. The fight with Mance doesn't feel like a fair measurement for one reason, Mance is using a greatsword! That shit is in another weight class entirely, greatswords are used more as polearms. Like they are both wearing mail and plate right? A fully armored foe can most certainly shrug off blows from a long sword, but given the size of a greatsword you definetively are gonna feel the impact of it's blows even if it can't cut through your armor. So here we have Mance, fully decked out in armor that can shrug off blows from a longsword, so Jon has to cut through small openings in the armor around the joints. While Mance is wielding a massive sword who's blow Jon will definetively feel even if it can't cut through his armor. I don't mean to disparriage Mances skill or suggest Jon would have won, and it was honestly such a rookie mistake for Jon to even walk into this fight. But I don't think many of the greater warriors would have fared much better in this one sided battle. Maybe they would have done better, but I still think that prime Jaime, Loras, Wyllas etc would also have struggled and maybe even lost. Just to clarify, a blunted longsword against a fullly armored foe is no threat, but a blunted greatsword is dangerous to a armored foe.

Not Clayton Soggs!!

Don't have anything to add to it. I think it is really hard to figure out how good he really is, since most of his match ups are just stacked in one direction. And i can't really think of any moment where it is even close. Do we have a description of a duel against an average Nights watch man? Because as long as we don't it's kinda hard to asses where he actually stands. What is clear is that he is still getting better and learning, and that process goes on over the duration of the book. Would Book 1 Jon stand up against a Ser Hugh? Definitely not. Would book 5 Jon? Maybe, might even win. Would book 5 Jon stand his ground the Blackfish? I don't think so.

Loras Tyrell vs Satin. Whos prettier

I blame the show for muddying the book characters actual strengths and prowess. Another great example of this is Arya… lots of ppl think she’s this badass/unbeatable swordswoman because of her Faceless Men training, but in the books, her training is actually more focused on mummery, detecting lies, spying, face changing magic & (edit) poison usage

I always thought Jon losing that duel to Mance was a great way to show he was skilled but not a legend. Made him feel like a more well rounded character that could die, not a god tier swordsman

What is this in response to?

Truth be told I think he's one of the best for his age and truth be told he seemed more combat than all of them truthfully he's been in the mix of every major fight and he survived so obviously he can fight the only reason he died people portrayed him show truthfully he is one of the better sword fighters in the land and that's a fact that you just look at it all the fights he was in and he survived them all so yeah and they say Rob was a better fighter but they also say is Rob is better on a horse with a lance and a bow but John is better with his sword they literally say that in the book so yeah he's good with a sword and he's one of the best fighters especially for his age and he's only going to get better that's facts

It is 2023.

He's a castle trained fighter with a Valyrian steel sword, with real fight experience. He's strategic about his fights too, he knows when to submit, and when to keep fighting. So overall, he's a good swordsman, and could become a great one by the end of the series

Jon is not better swordsman than Robb, Jon thinks he is a better swordsman than Robb. We don't know what Robb thinks about Jon. Robb probably thinks he is a better swordsman than Jon. Robb fought in several battles against armoured opponents and trained fighter and mercenaries.

I agree Jon is an emotional teenage punk that doesn’t stack up to the greats, but he can beat anyone. Skilled fighters lose fights all the time to lesser skilled fighters. Fighting at an elite level is any given Sunday because either opponent is capable of tough grappling or a knock out. Throw in a sword and any fight against an equal sized opponent with training is a luck game. But yeah snow is a chump and I would eat his children. How will he ride all 3 dragons? That’s easy enough, he can worg a sexy unicorn. Them dragon’s are putty when they see his magic uh horn.

Don't get me wrong, i don't think Jon is at all in the top teir of fighters in Westeros. As you've said he just hasn't had enough time to develop his skills and he's not a gifted prodigy like Jamie was. But i feel you're being a bit harsh on him. Ignoring all the recruits he bashes in the knights watch, he still demolishes Iron Emmit when he lets his temper fly and Iron Emmit is regarded as the pride of East-watch, and considering he lasts a good long time against Mance who would have to be one of the single greatest fighters north of the wall since "the free folk follow fighters" it think is a sign he is decent. Ultimately i think Jon before his death would probably be an above average fighter compared to other trained fighters, but not exceptional, that said like you also said he is still quite young so i think he has room to develop potentially into an exceptional fighter, though still likely never anything on par with Jamie or Baristan or Garlan etc.

If you’re looking for incompetent sword fighters who think they’re badass, look no further than the GOT choreographers 😂

Is Edd a sex offender?! You think you know a guy....

I always thought it was funny that Jon is supposed to be a badass in the show, but when he's sent to Craster's keep he gets his ass handed to him by one of the rapers. Like, he barely wins that fight

Cant hear you thanks to unnecessarly added music ....... Why even add music ? from 14 min i could not handle it anymore. Really awfull( esp. from 15min) and distracting for non english natives.

Eos jon might be... Battle is a different story than on paper.. Jon will face a ton of walkers and fighters in future.. Most of the so called great knights dies by fodders ... Lol , barristan was fighting along with rheagar.still couldn't protect him from getting whooped by bobby b.. And he is supposed to be some god....of fighting lol.. He might not be the best swordsman, but he will definitely become a better fighter and will actually win ...instead of dying from some random fodder in end ....