Metal Isn't Metal Anymore 

Just because the bronze age is over doesn't mean all the metal is gone, Anthony

People debating over what counts as metal and what doesn’t count as metal? That’s a defining characteristic of metal, so really metal is still metal.

Oh you like metal? Name 3 Blacksmiths

Interview me next. I'm not a musician or journalist of anything, I just wanna say hi.

The idea that Spiritbox sounds anything like Evanescence is kinda wild and I feel like that comparison is only relevant bc they both have vocalists that are women. I don't even like Spiritbox like that but they have screaming and breakdowns and are metalcore/djent influenced. Evanescence has their own like nu metal/almost a bit theatrical operatic type sound. The comparison is kind of a stretch for me.

It may be true that most of the popular metal bands are lacking, but I listen to literally hundreds of albums a year and go to shows that are 100% metal as all hell. There are so many bands that aren't just heavy, they are pushing the envelope, they are expanding the boundaries. The music industry as a whole has a way of burying all the best stuff.

The best metal right now is where it's always been: the underground. The most popular metal bands are rarely the best the genre has to offer.

I'll save you an hour. The dude basically doesn't like new popular metal songs.

I feel like you could turn on any Crusty Rock Radio station at any point in time during the last 40 years and hear this exact same conversation.

Not sure how I feel about Enis' experiential framework. To say that Evanescence were one of the two biggest bands in the genre in the early 2000s is an immediate flag that he's skipping over too much. Linkin Park? Yes. But SOAD, Slipknot, Limp Bizkit were absolutely selling more records than Evanescence were. There's zero question about that. Everyone knows who SOAD are. I would wager 85% of people over the age of 18 all over the world except the most extremely remote places, know that name, and probably know at least Chop Suey!.

Idk this all kinda feels like the same arguments that were being made when I was listening to metalcore in 2013

I disagree melon, most construction workers will tell you metal is the same material its always been.

Melon saying that Black Sabbath’s first record had to make concessions by using blues rock to appeal to a wider audience is kinda wild considering that that was basically the first metal record. They were making concessions, the genre was in its infancy and they were developing it.

Seems to me that if metal bands aren't selling out stadiums any more, we need to focus less on making bigger metal bands and focus more on making smaller stadiums

This same argument was made about 00s Metalcore and 90s Nu Metal, and still is. Gatekeeping has been a part of metal for a very long time.

Most boomer video title I’ve ever seen, my god

I feel like this guy Eli has the opinion that "melodic" and "heavy" are opposites, when bands like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest are very melodic but also bands which defined what "heavy" is.

Eli comparing Spiritbox to Evanescence was so funny. Like yo, it's totally different.

I don't know, I just feel like this entire conversation is a waste of fucking time. This is just a reflection of what's happening in literally every other fucking genre of music. Country, rock, hip-hop, metal, every genre, the upper echelon is connected into The monolith that is mainstream pop music and I also feel like for every genre, it has progressively gotten more this way over the past 30 years. So I don't even know what the point of this discussion even is. What are we going to have committees to try and resolve the issue of pop influence on mainstream metal ax? Just find the bands that you like that express the spirit of the tradition in a way that you appreciate, and get over it

Why are critics always the biggest dorks lol

I read the article linked in the description and I don’t know what Eli Enid ultimately wants out of the current new wave of metal. He keeps referring to his “thesis” but never defines what constitutes as “heavy” or as “metal”. Is a song like Number of the Beast by Iron Maiden “heavy” or “metal” despite it being based off of a major sound? Is Iron Tusk by Mastodon not metal because it lacks guitar solos as stated in the article? This new sleek style of metal is nothing new, Children of Bodom and In Flames were making these massive over the top arena metal anthems and the former were influencing synth sounds. Are Sleep Token any less human sounding than any tech metal band, both are pretty quantized? Are Ghost any less metal than how Black Sabbath was, they may as well be considered a blues band in the grand scheme of things. I hate to throw insults, for someone that clearly put effort in their article, but this comes off as some basement dweller saying mean things at “X new band” on some metal forum site. To me there’s nothing less metal than being so dogmatic about what is heavy and what isn’t metal.

This feels like old man yells at cloud, music evolves but we still have tons of classic metal bands coming up every day. The discography of the older bands still exist.

It’s liquid.

I think the idea of these bands as a gateway is more important than most think. I’ve gotten hip hop and pop-loving friends of mine into metal and hardcore (Knocked Loose, Converge) by showing them Bad Omens and Dayseeker. They loved the hip hop production and weeknd style flows but they also loved the intensity that the instrumentals and screaming brought. This is also BECAUSE they look like standard pop groups. The theatrics and violence would normally be a turnoff, but since Dayseeker looks like 5 Seconds of Summer they were more down to check it out. Just some anecdotal evidence to add to the convo.

Thrown, vidhjarta, knocked loose, lorna shore, slaughter to prevail... Idk man, I feel like metal is back in the menu more than ever.

I know of people who have discovered Vildhjarta after becoming fans of Spiritbox. The existence of gateway and underground bands remains unchanged.

I like that Eli is passionate about metal but this really just came off as really gatekeepy. Pop infused metal has always been a thing and although it may be true that theyre occupying a larger fraction of the metal mainstream, it doesnt make them less metal or detracts from the roots of the genre.

80's - Hair metal? That's not real metal! That's pop music with guitars! Metal is being destroyed by pop influence! 90's - Nu metal? That's not real metal! That's pop music with guitars! Metal is being destroyed by pop influence! 2000s - Metalcore? That's not real metal! That's pop music with guitars! Metal is being destroyed by pop influence! 2010s - Djent? That's not real metal! That's pop music with guitars! Metal is being destroyed by pop influence! 2020s - Bring Me the Horizon/Spiritbox/Bad Omens/Sleep Token? That's not real metal! That's pop music with guitars! Metal is being destroyed by pop influence!

I’m sorry but in an era where Zeal and Ardor exist as well as Druids, Hippotraktor, and Dvne I kinda refuse to believe Metal isn’t Metal anymore. It just isn’t really achieving mainstream popularity the way bands like Metallica and System of a Down did.

As a metal head who went to 5 shows in April alone of very different types of metal bands, this is just weird. The metal scene (and other scenes too) has a whole "middle class" of musicians who make their living touring now, when that wasn't even possible back in the day. Talking about the "mainstream" feels pretty pointless too. Big labels and the like just feel like the remnants of a dying system.

I'm not all the way through this but the fact you're talking about how there aren't any huge really heavy bands anymore and not mention Knocked Loose as a potential band that will take that crown. They've been blowing up bigger and bigger for years and not gotten softer at all.

bro, you talk about metal from a limited perspective. there's so much change in metal in this decade.

Melon Isn't Melon Anymore

Metal has always evolved, that's why there's so many subgenres. It went from the proto-metal of The Kinks to the early metal of The Jimi Hendrix Experience, then the beginnings of the genre as it would become defined with the likes of Black Sabbath, then the more prog inspired new wave of British heavy metal acts like Iron Maiden, then there was hair metal and thrash metal, then death/black metal came along, then we saw the rise of nu-metal which brought in elements of rap and alternative rock, and now we're seeing a more pop influenced metal. But metal was always melodic music, with perhaps the exception of some of the more extreme black/death bands. Black Sabbath started out as a blues rock band and they were heavily influenced by The Beatles, the melodies were incredibly important to their sound. Even with Metallica or Slipknot, their songs are still melodic at their core. Metal often draws on classical influences so there's a lot of melodic ideas in their. Rap on the other hand was intended to not be melodic and put the focus on the rhythm. I grew up in the 80s, in those days, metal WAS pop music. Yes, there thrash and all that but the hair metal bands like Poison and Guns N Roses were being played next to Madonna and George Michael. I don't see why metal can't be like that again. You can have the harsher stuff over to the side but also have the stuff that can cross over. Poppy has been amazing at that and she was coming to metal from the pop side. I think the problem with a lot of modern rock and metal comes down to the production. The Foo Fighters have their heavier moments but their last 3 albums have been produced by Greg Kurstin and I don't think that he understands rock music, he's a pop guy, a ballad guy, but he doesn't seem to get hard rock or metal. On those albums, even when they tried to rock out, it just sounds toothless, it just doesn't hit in the way that it should. They're using autotune and all of the tricks that the pop acts are using.

Before listening to Sleep Token, I was listening to Korn, Slipknot, and Linkin Park when I was younger. But I also listen Slaughter To Pevail, Abbie Falls, and Paleface at the same time as I listen to Sleep Token. I actually discovered Sleep Token through Loathe (currently my favorite band) I listen to all genres of music. But personally, I enjoy experimental stuff and the metal scene has been the most interesting. I feel Knocked Loose and Sleep Token are two sides or the same coin. KL pushing metals heavy boundaries and ST pushing metals melodic boundaries. It’s fascinating to see these changes in the genre. I can understand why some classic metal heads would start to panic over the genre loosing its identity but it’s an overreaction. People panicked when Nu metal was on the rise but here we are with metal still going hard and strong.

Speaking as somebody who is both a fan of the overproduced metalcore and the rawer forms of the new wave of traditional heavy metal and black metal, I feel like both Anthony and Eli missed a crucial missing link that I think really bridged the gap between the metalcore of the 2000s and the pop centric metalcore of nowadays, and that’s electronicore. That weird hybrid genre of metalcore, pop, emo and EDM played by bands like I See Stars, Enter Shikari, Asking Alexandria and others that was sort of a staple of the Warped Tour scene really paved the way for metalcore bands to experiment with pop and electronic elements in their sounds.

@41:27 This is the point. Horror, the occult, gore, true crime, fantasy and satanic imagery have now been widely accepted in the mainstream and amongst non-metal audiences. Generationally as well embracing these interests used to be a middle finger to your parents, teachers etc., In the 90s if you were into horror you were likely into metal, if you were into fantasy you were likely into metal, if you were fascinated by true crime, atrocities and such you were likely going to be into metal. Now? Not at all.

30:10 I mean, this is begging the question. Is it the job of any band to get anyone deeper into the genre? Is it wrong if a fan doesn't then listen to other things? Maybe the fan just likes that band's sound in particular. This is all framed as if this kind of metal is a threat to the culture/ecosystem, as opposed to a shift in the dynamics. That Bad Omens and Sleep Token (and hopefully Spiritbox soon, as they're my favorite right now) are opening stadiums must mean that this is popular. If the heavier stuff was....it would be selling stadiums instead wouldn't it? All in all, this feels like the same old head my favorite stuff isnt popular so the genre is dead junk that metalheads are famous for.

it’s not really metal, it’s actually sound waves 🙂

people can like more than one genre. i listen to bands like autopsy, death, obituary, deicide, nunslaughter, ect. as well as bands like ghost, sleep token, spiritbox, loathe, bands like that. i am fully aware of the genres these bands fall in, but i enjoy it all. you don’t need to put up walls by genre and only listen to one thing. just listen to what you think sounds good and don’t let anyone stop you from enjoying it

Why are people so adamant that genres are more necessary than they are? The point of these bands getting big isn’t to be a gateway band, it’s to make music that people might enjoy. Genres are restrictive and pointless.

i wish there was a little discussion around what bilmuri is doing. they arent as metal but the influences are definitely there, and the genre bending they do is genuinely creative and it just sounds like they have fun making their music.

The vast majority of metal heads from my generation (millennial) will tell you that they got into metal as a genre, scene and sub culture through listening to Linkin Park. They were a genre crossing and pop centric band and they acted as a very good gateway into metal for a lot of people. They also received all of the same criticisms and gate keeping bs that the bigger bands of today are receiving lol. Before Chester died any post about LP on Metal Hammer, Metal Sucks or any of the large metal media outlet would be filled with people saying "They're not metal shshdbsjabsb". Now he is dead, everyone has nothing but kind words. I really hope it doesn't take the same thing for bands like BMTH, Architects, Spiritbox, Ghost, Sleep Tokken etc to get the respect they actually deserve, damn, metal is dying because of gatekeepers like this dude.

i was eating dorito when phone ring: "metal is ded" "no"

Anthony, I don´t get it! On the one hand, people are complaining that Metal is stuck in the past and that there´s no evolution in it. And then we have bands like Sleep Token or Bad Omens which aren´t stuck in the past, and people complain that Metal doesn´t sound like Metal any more.

Ever since Anthony said that Bring Me the Horizon had "an addiction to metalcore style riffing" on Sempiternal I've taken his metal opinions with a grain of salt. Yes, metalcore style riffs by a metalcore band (at the time) on a metalcore album, shocking.

oh no Metal has a new subgenre, it must be dead. Metal is dead. Pack it in fellas, music is over.

I think the next logical step of extremity in heavy music is noise rock. Bands like Daughters, Chat Pile, Full of Hell etc capture that perfectly

Lamb of God, Mastodon, Knocked Loose, System of a Down and MANY more all playing very large venues and holding up the standards of a lot of contemporary metal from back in the day. Sanguisugabogg, 200 Stab Wounds, Jesus Piece and MANY more playing small venues and upholding classic death metal sounds and structures. Saying “metal isnt metal” is tonedeaf and just sounds like either you dont look for shit beyond the surface or someone doesnt like 2 big metal bands so they had to write an article damning the genre. Same behavior as people who listen to mainstream modern rap and say “hIp hOp iSnT RaP anYmOrE”

This is Chat Pile erasure

I don't think true, pure "metal" has ever been that massive outside of the "big 3" (or 4) of thrash back in the 80's/90's. Since then, the genre has fractured into dozens of genres, spawning the nu-metal movement of the late 90's and '00s, and bringing us to the modern day. Now, there are an insane amount of bands spanning so many genres, from traditional thrash and death metal, to mixing genres like black metal, shoegaze, and post rock into something completely new. The latest era of Sleep Token, Spiritbox, Bad Omens, and etc. are just an extension of that. These bands are mostly popular because of they draw from the genres of pop, R&B, and whatnot that are more mainstream. Look at bands like Loathe, who mix the sounds of metalcore with alt-rock, ambient, shoegaze, black metal, djent, and many other genres. There is an artistic quality to it even if it isn't always adhering to the normal rules of "metal". Isn't the label of "metal" a little reductive in that sense? All in all, I think metal in today's landscape is just an extension of most other music nowadays. All of it is influenced by other genres and, by extension, is less defined than it used to be. There won't be any more giant bands like Iron Maiden or Metallica in today's landscape because they already existed. They already explored that territory. Just like there won't be any hip-hop acts like NWA or Tupac because they already existed. Hip-hop and pop music has changed over the years just like metal has. Music and genre changes over time, and metal exists as an example of that.

Yo shout out to Metalocalypse and the first Iron Man movie for getting me into metal when I was a kid

Yes, when streaming exists and music is easy to find, pop metal will be the most popular. Pop, being the most popular, is the most popular influence in any genre (pop rock, pop rap, etc.). If you look at only the top 10 metal bands you will find the poppy ones, but look just a bit below (Loathe, Knocked Loose, Lorna Shore) and you don't have that. That said, as a metal fan I dislike just how many bands feel they need to go pop to make it.

The only acts that can afford stadium touring have to be the grandaddies of the genre, who have already made their $$$ and connections in order to afford them the venues and butts in the seats. Coupled with the fact few venues exist for small/medium acts to cut their teeth on and build a fan movement, less people are exposed to bands than previous generations. $5 all ages gigs simply don't exists, and can't pay the bills even if they did. It has so little to do with genre dilution.

Eli's argument is so weak. He's conflating so many different factors and looking at the history and popularity of metal with such rose-colored glasses. Dudes like Eli have been saying the same thing as boomers complaining about Journey playing stadiums, when they think everything w/ guitars should stand like Lynyrd Skynyrd Fact: Metal has never really been mainstream, and the closest metal ever got, all of the guys like Eli didn't want to call metal, so they invented a different term for it. Nu metal. Fact: You can't play stadiums without pop sensibilities because pop stands for popular and metal by definition has always been niche. Metallica can only play stadiums because they went from "injustice for all" to "the black album", which was considered by all of the gatekeepers like Eli as a move towards pop sensibilities. You're going to complain about sleep token in the limelight and not talk about the success of hard as hell, Lorna Shore? Knocked Loose playing Coachella? It's the same lame dudes complaining that the music that they liked specifically when they're young isn't still as popular. System of a down didn't Dilute the waters of "metal" so that Lamb of God couldn't find success in stadiums. It's logic. Stadiums hold the most amount of people, so you can't play there without appealing to the most amount of people, regardless of your genre. Metal will be just fine.

I think it’s an issue with promotion too. There are countless awesome metal bands nowadays with 1,000 monthly Spotify listeners.

German Black Metal Musician here. Reading that Title im immediately skeptical and my European Brain goes "Americans Man....let's find out if this is an exaggerated clickbait title and they don't even mean Metal and all it's Sub Genres or just something specific" Dont blame me for that, RU-vid Titles made me cynical as hell, but i can definitely tell you Metal especially new creative and rich new Types of it keep appearing in any of our 44 European Countries on a yearly Basis, it never gets boring, i guess many of them don't go on the American Radar for some Reason, but they should. Especially the past 3 Years there has been an insane creative Boom and Evolutions in all kinds of Metal Genres by especially Central and Eastern European Metal Bands, but of course they like always get barely covered for some Reason. Point being: Metal IS more Metal than it used to be (and im almost 40) unless you focus on all the Mainstream English Language Stuff everyone focuses on Prost & Cheers from Berchtesgaden in the Bavarian Alps and when i tour in the USA this Autumn/Fall with some other Central/Eastern Euro Black Metal Bands, i'm sure the Crowd will be a Blast as always, since the American Crowds are some of the most fun ones in my Experience, even if they don't understand the Languages we perform in

I haven't listened to the full conversation yet but around the 20 minute mark you talked about rock being absent as a bridge between metal and other mainstream genres. Well one band I do think finds that bridge is Loathe - they manage to bring the shoegaze/new wave revival of bands like Fontaines DC into their sort of Cave In-esque metalcore sound in a way that manages to bring out the best of both worlds.

I think I'm just gonna go with what Prince said on these topics. It isn't up to those that don't make the music to judge what is and what isn't in music. If they feel something is missing then they should find it in their self to make what they feel is missing. If something is missing to them then it isn't on those that are making the music to fix that. Just let people make their music and enjoy it. It's their music and their art. Metal bands today are metal regardless if they have pop influences or not you'd be surprised at how many metal bands from back then were inspired by blues or R&B motown or funk and utilized that stuff we weren't questioning them then so why start now?

Fantano should do more of these in depth music nerd conversations. Very fascinating stuff.

Look Melon, Ima need you to be more prompt on BEEF WATCH 2024

To be metal, the vast majority of the song needs sonic density, also known as heaviness. If that's not the case, then it isn't metal, and a lot of modern metal bands do have that, it's just the biggest ones that don't, like sleep token

When talking about popular metal and high sellers, then sure, it would end up being the pop acts. But the sound of metal will continue to evolve, we also have bands choosing to sound like 80s thrash but released today (such as Thrashwall). What an interesting time for metal.

People may not agree but i just want to put it out there, i feel like bass-heavy electronic music, more specifically early 2010s Dubstep, played a big role in modern metal song structure even with the more proggier and technical metalcore/djent bands with being over-edited and the mandatory breakdown as the new "drop the bass" moment distanting itself from the metal roots. Whether is it a bad or good thing thats up to debate.

@28:00 also, Waltari, 1992, "Yeah Yeah Die Die Death MEtal Symphony in C" mixed everything in metal. Opera, techno, hip hop, punk, rock... everything. So Waltari, in Finland, crushed the boundaries LONG ago. Enter Shikari and other bands like Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Estradasphere, Maudlin of the Well, Agalloch, Disillusion "Gloria" pushed boundaries long ago

The thing here is that any “popular” metal/rock band is always going to be not as heavy or “in the spirit” of metal as the extreme subgenres. That stuff is never going to hit the charts, so if we’re only looking at mainstream rock acts, yeah, they all are approachable. It just comes with the context in which the music came out. Linkin Park and Slipknot were born into a metal world where hip-hop was huge so those sounds merged, just like Bad Omens and Sleep Token are born into a metal world where pop is huge and those sounds are merging.

Hard to say metal isn’t metal anymore with how many sub genres of metal we have especially with how much more popular/successful we’ve seen modern deathcore/metalcore bands have become

To me what bothers me about this trend of extremely pop like metal acts is that lots of metal critics seem to give them a pass just saying oh they’re a good gateway band and really not talking about the music at all

I haven't listened to Slipknot in years. Once Paul Grey Passed away, the way Chris Fehn said he was treated by them, and Joey Jordison's death. If I remember correct Joey wasn't even in the band when he passed away, but those are the few reasons why I stopped listening to them. My favorite album personally was, Subliminal verses Vol 3. I'm still a huge fan of System of a down, these two bands are so talented it just doesn't make sense. I am a black man, and I mention it, because people of my race are often loojed at as weird for liking rock/metal/alternative etc. tbh i just have an appreciation for the hard work these artists put into their sounds, they bring people who have the same kind of appreciation from all types of ethnic backgrounds together. Tech N9Ne has a special appreciation for the same two bands mentioned as well.

I think Ghost specifically are kind of a variety band that makes music of many genres. You will get doom metal, prog metal, disco, gospel, classic rock, glam or whatever. As someone who likes heavy music and disco music and casual blasphemy and over the top pageantry, this is a band that really speaks to me.

The sound sorta isn't, but the theatrics definitely is.

The metal discourse has just reached the "hip hop is dead" discourse which peaked about 20 years ago. Pop-influenced metal acts have *always* been bigger than 'true' metal (hair metal like Def Leppard and Mötley Crüe for example), that's nothing new! However, what is true is that the tier 1 metal bands (Metallica, Slayer, Pantera, Megadeth, Ozzy, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden) are kind of dying off or aging out without any replacement (Slipknot is the only exception and they've been around for about 20 years now).

Title = I'm mad. Content = oh ok this makes sense. Also, it really confused me how Sleep Token got thrown into the forefront of Metal when they're aren't metal at all. At least their latest. It's just a pop band with "metal" aesthetics.

people should get back into the early classics; Slayer, Iron Maiden, Goat Semen, ect

I think one of the main reasons for the aesthetic and spiritual change in the 'metal' scene in the last 20-ish years is due to the fact that ever since the nu metal scene introduced the direct mixing and blending of genres with rock/metal to the mainstream by means of its pure ubiquity on mainstream radio and TV, people gradually became more open to the idea. I know that there were sporadic instances of rock and metal bands mixing in elements from other genres before the nu metal boom, but no one with ears can deny that the wave of bands coming out in the late 90s and early 00s was what made this type of genre blending popular. Therefore, we're living in a time where many of the kids who grew up in that environment have formed, or are now forming their own bands. And they didn't grow up listening to pure rock or metal like, for example their parents might have. Additionally, and more importantly, I think bands nowadays don't only consist of metalheads as was apparently the case 30 years ago. There's not much doubt what anyone in Pantera listened to during their metal prime, but bands nowadays consist of people with very different musical backgrounds. Some may have been heavily into rap, some may have grown up with Justin Bieber and Selena Gomes, some may have listened to nu metal and some may be absolutely traditional metalheads. So when you put a band together, consisting of people with such diverse tastes, there')s no way that can result in a traditionally sounding metal band. Some of the original rock bands of the 60s and 70s also included people with diverse musical backgrounds and tastes but they didn't have the entire history of rock and metal to refer to and be compared against. So they invented it and basically introduced the standards we use today. I think a similar thing might happen in the future, where young bands would rebel against the ideas imposed on them of what rock and metal music should be. They'd just keep the attitude and energy but the sound and aesthetic may be vastly different to what one might expect and that's ok. Sooner or later the wheel will turn and we'll be back to people rediscovering traditional sounds and so on...The cycle will keep going. As for the popularity of rock and metal in general, well I mean nothing lasts forever and I think they'll always have their fans but things would probably go the same way they did for Jazz. Jazz is still around and feels like it has always been around. And while there are still people playing and releasing jazz, there are still festivals and clubs, and you can feel its influence all over modern music, it's far from being mainstream. I think rock and metal would follow a similar fate...

Read this piece last week and thought it was a fantastic and very well articulated article. Glad you thought the same Anthony and brought Eli on to interview!

There's Mainstream Metal and there's Underground Metal. There's Melodic Metal and there's Extreme Metal. Metal is still Metal, what are y'all talking about?!

9:05 I think you can see this in Knocked Loose. They're getting really big which is amazing considering just how unrelentingly heavy they are.

I feel like the current metal fandom has been invaded by scene kids.

Bro needs to listen to OMERTA

A lot of people through evanescence got into bands like Epica and Cradle of Filth. Just saying.

I think it’s kind of an important distinction to make that pop sensibilities and production =/= lack of heaviness or extremity. If you put even one of BMTH’s most recent songs like Amen alongside your average Metallica song and played both for your typical normie music listener, one is more like to be far more palatable than the other.

Knocked Loose have 1.7 mill listeners on spotify currently (not too far behind Sleep Token at 3 mill). The heavier side of metal is getting more popular not less.

When someone says “(insert genre) is dead or dying”, they mean the mainstream. OF COURSE there is good underground music. There is always good music in every genre being made. Obviously. That is not a helpful take

You know what genre I feel can turn the tide with mainstream metal? Power metal, specifically U.S. Power Metal. I'm talking bands like Judicator, Seven Kingdoms, Jag Panzer, etc. Why? Because it follows Eli's mentioned criteria of what it would take for the pendulum to shift while still offering something for newer audiences. Unlike its more popular sibling Euro-style power metal, most US-style power metal is actually closer to thrash in many ways in terms of speed and heaviness, but still retain the melodicism and theatrics that power metal and a lot of mainstream metal is known for. It still is very riff-centric and memorable, solos are still prevalent here, and most vocals are sung clean so it's something arguably more accessible than a metalcore band where the melodic parts of the song are usually reserved just for the chorus. It's arguably the closest we've ever had to 80s thrash, which dominated the sphere in its glory days. I wouldn't be surprised if somehow this kind of power metal became the go-to of many people trying to get into genre as a whole and either replaced or ran counter to mainstream metalcore in the 2030s.

Just because you can't see the metal, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Furthermore what's "happening" to metal isn't unique. The industry as a whole only pays attention to artists who can afford to be online all day pushing their product, and 99% of the stuff that is the most visible isn't really as good as what ordinary people are doing. Anyone with a job or a life outside music (think Robert Pollard) the industry just doesn't give a shit. The industry doesn't SCOUT talent anymore. It's up to us to email you our shit and just hope you pay attention to it, and just hope that most media stfu about the biggest pop artists for a second to cover something new.

i doubt im going to see spiritbox or sleeptoken at BOA any time soon so I think metal is safe...

Some of the best stoner metal and doom metal seems like it’s being released In the 2000s and still going strong!

Claiming to be metal, or that there is a certain metal aesthetic/sound to adhere to has become the cringe meta...Look at what Glen Benton just said regarding "weezer" looking dudes infiltrating death metal...As a lifelong metalhead, I am tired of the argument of what is and is not metal...I don't care anymore. It doesn't matter!

The pit at the last meshuggah show had probably 15 teenagers constantly complaining about being bumped into.

. With the fragmented nature of music as an art form, it makes sense that any band attempting to make a living will court the pop audience to become famous/popular. That being said, metal has always thrived in the underground. It still does today. If you want metal, hit bandcamp and look into stuff like Vulture, Desolus, Necrot, Abigor and the list goes on.

It's 1986. The popular metal bands aren't actually metal, and metal isn't metal anymore. It's 2000. The popular metal bands aren't actually metal, and metal isn't metal anymore. It's 2011. The popular metal bands aren't actually metal, and metal isn't metal anymore. It's 2024... The argument is dumb, and it's always been dumb. Also, this guy has a very narrow view of what counts as metal. I think quite a few classic bands wouldn't count here. Edit: Actually, now I want to know. Are the Sweet metal? Are Europe or Wasp metal? I saw someone saying that Queensryche aren't metal, is that true?

As a 29 year old Sleep Token fan who's listened to all kinds of metal ever since Hybrid Theory and Meteora were released when I was in elementary school, yes... Imagine Dragons is an insult.

I feel like the blending of genres that the more radio friendly bands are doing is perfectly fine. I can only see it as a good thing if these artists bring people into the scene that would have otherwise not been interested, especially since there are still bands out there sticking to old formulas or exclusively putting out heavy music. I think all of these things can and should coexist in the scene.

One observation I have had as a guitar player, and keep in mind I am very much not keyed into current metal music so I could be misreading the landscape, is whenever I follow metal guitar channels and many of the metal bands I see, sound much more in the realm of power and progressive metal, with very heavy emphasis on virtuosity of technique. Playing guitar I do appreciate technique but I also appreciate hearing the muscle and sweat in solo or riff, and sometimes what I hear now reminds me a lot of that hair metal apex we hit in the late 80s where technique and style were overpowering substance. You see it I think especially with the almost utter contempt pentatonic scales appear to be held these days (which to me is as stupid as getting enraged over minor chords). I think the missing element is inspiration. I hear a lot of good music, that doesn't feel inspired or coming from an authentic and genuine place. One of the appeals of metal bands back in the day, like Megadeth for example, is whether it was a more sloppy album like So Far, So Good So What, or a more pristine one like Rust in Peace, you felt you were getting a window into their souls. It was genuinely expressed and felt emotion, a reflection of who they were as people. And Megadeth was just an example. I would say the same thing about Iron Maiden, Obituary or King Diamond. Maybe I am just old and cranky but some playing I hear now,. And there are newer bands I like. This is more about the culture I see around metal guitar and guitar playing in general. Also I think in a lot of ways metal has been divorced from metal and just become another aesthetic people layer onto music.

This is an age thing… but moshing didn’t anywhere close to recently become “a general response to anything remotely heavy” as Enis suggests. On a lunch break in 1998, I went to see the Cranberries play an acoustic set at the Washington Monument on a lunch break. When they played “Linger,” a crazy pit broke out and park and riot police had to be called in to break up and disperse the crowd while shutting down the show. Even at that point, “normies” moshing was the most common thing at a show possible.

So, an hour gatekeeping metal to only the subgenres we like. As music critics, its absolutely fair to explain why you don't like, or don't find value in certain music. But you have to recognise that does not equate to that music not having inherent value. Clearly others are finding value in it. That article reads the same way as a black metal forum would 10-15 years ago. And equating Spiritbox to Evanescence is... something.

Melody and hooks don't only come from pop, though. It's a historically-specific development shaped by the business environment of music that's made pop the face of commercial "metal" today. It genuinely could be Smoulder or Noor instead: bands with enormous hooks and catchiness who are genuinely true metal bands who *also* don't sound like retreads of some old, passé style (not that retreads are actually shunned by marketers, just addressing the usual facade that commercialism-first types disingenuously advance to dismiss the appeal of genuine heavy metal acts).

Well, Fantano reviewed Tomb Mold last year and Civerous recently, he knows more metal than the average metal guy

@8:00 - dude Children of Bodom and Andrew WK were coveriung Britney spears in 2003... Powerman 5000 changed styles mid 1990s top become industrial numetal and made a THE CARS cover... Do you even know metal history ? I've only been following since 1998 but darn man... I don't agfree, Linkin Park & System of a down & Limp Bizkit (behind blue eyes) prove that late 1990s nbumetal had pop affinities, even P.o.D. getting a single in pop charts is a proof. Then in the 1990s many bands were pop like Infectious grooves in the movie encino man, heck even Cannibal Corpse went mainstream with Ace Ventura showcase :P and the 1980s? I will let people born before me (1983) tell the story of pop and metal in the 80s.