Demand isn't there sadly, most people can't see past the obvious alternatives. The real shame is that more people didn't want one. Lotus sells 1500 cars a year. Porsche 250,000. More than the entire history of Lotus output every six months.
I also have the same issue on my tyres. I asked my tyre guy and he said it was a common Michelin problem where the outside layer gets hot too quickly and the inner core is not up to temperature. His recommendation was don’t go 10/10 too early, let the tyres get a couple of laps to heat up properly.
Yeah! You're back DrP... we missed you :-). Thanks for your latest film... mmm interesting point. I've only used 4S tyres on my Evora so haven't noticed that point. More updates / thoughts about your Evora 430 please when you have time, or any of your other toys.
Hi, don’t know if you remember me, we spoke in the comments of your 3 Eleven video about the problems of the car I now own since early 2018. I recently found a solution for most things the car lacked in terms of how it handled... I dumped the Cup2 and changed to TrofeoR in 1inch smaller diameter front and rear and even went from 225 to 205 on the front. Result is amazing, finally I get some proper temperatures in the fronts (Cup2 barely got more then 50C no matter how hard I tried) therefore the massive understeer is nearly gone. Tire wear is also miles better, specially on the rear left I had the same damage like you at the fronts, exactly on the same area, the first outside 1cm... On my home track I gained over 4sec and tire wear is much less!
I've noticed the groove direction thing on the PS4 I run on my MX5 as well, and always wondered if that was in any way detrimental to their performance-thanks for clearing that up! I wish Michelin made left and right versions… because otherwise, I really like their tyres.
I would say the groove direction it has little to no effect to the feathering youre experiencing. Its down to the track direction and abrasion level of the track surface. More right hand turns means more abuse on the left tyre - simple as that.
I have had exactly the same wear effect on both Kumo V70As and and Zestino Slicks, neither which has the groves direction issue . My impression is that wet grip is the only thing that is affected by rotating tires the "wrong" way.
Roundabouts my friend will whack the left tyres. My taxi would demolish tyres on the front left. Your theory is also highly probable, not just because of wet road driving but because of the direction of the tread making the tyre more abrasive in motion. Good call and good video sir..
I think your theory should be reversed, the outer block grooves pointing up/forward when looking at the top of the tire would point back when the tire is in contact with the ground (180 degrees out).
Very well known issue with SC2s. Had several sets shit like you. Both right and left. Most people using them on 911s are changing to Trofero Rs. I also tried them on my exige and they managed better the extensive use. But overall wear was much higher. So at the end the tire lasts same as the SC2s...even for different reasons.
I did notice that but I also noticed that on yours and mine the second groove has a slightly different color which could be a different compound for that groove
I had similar issue, but my view is that culprit is (too)soft outer-shoulder construction for hard track-wor. More negative camber does help but neg camber it has its limits. Solution is trofeo r or nankang ar-1 or direzza semis.
I have been using Cup 2 tires since 2014, when I bought my 991.1 GT3, then continued using them as I added more Porsches to my collection....GT4, then GT3 991.2 (manual), AMG GTR and finally GT2 RS. I had similar results & wear issues on my front tires on all my Porsches and my AMG , and I have experimented quite bit with different tires and also various camber sittings on both the front & back and yes the cup2 do favor very aggressive camber setting and limited preferred tire pressures range especially on the fronts to minimize this outside shoulder wear, but found out mostly the shoulder wear occurs as the tire approaches or exceeds it’s heat cycles limits. Cup2 tires in general will reach their heat cycle limit well before they physically wear out. Try to keep hot tire pressures around 29 to 32 psi, which means you probably start around 20 to 23 psi cold. In general I get now 4 to 5 track days out of a new set combined with around 3000 to 4000 miles of aggressive street driving. However if you place this much of street driving like I do, they will heat cycle out, as I indicated earlier well before they completely wear out, and of course their grip levels will reduce by as much as 10 to 20% and as soon as you approach the heat cycle limit, this shoulder wear start to show up on the very next track day, and the front tires will get chewed up on the outside. So the factors are front camber setting, and the combined use (track & street) of the tires, as they have limited heat cycles and you will use up the heat cycles driving aggressively on the street. You are better off having a dedicated track set, and you will probably get 2 additional track days. Finally couple of other observations, the new Cup2 N1 or N2 tires vs N0 seem to do better in terms of both shoulder wear and grip, but unfortunately they are available for the 295 section width but they are available for 305, and 325 section width for GT3, GT3 RS and GT2 RS. As for other tire brands, it is interesting to note my fastest times were always achieved on Dunlop’s Sport Maxx Race 2 vs cup2 or Trofeo R, but unfortunately the tire pressures fluctuate by as much as 15 to 20 psi after they heat up and you will need to adjust the pressures more often than the other tires, and the really bad news, they wear out so much faster than any other tire, that you are lucky if you get 2 track days out of a new set, but their grip levels are higher than cup2 tires and easier to control at the limit and do better in the wet. I also liked the Trofeo R, but it takes time to get them to temperature and the car is much harder to control at the limit, and in addition are horrible on the wet,,,,so I was able to get good lab times but I am never consistent on these tires, so I ended up going back to the Cup2 tires. One Final comment........ your tire sizes is the same as the tires I have on my GT4, and I ended up switching to RE 71-R and I am in love with these tires. Their overall grip is slightly lower than the cup 2 tires but I can do easily 7 track days and well over 6000 miles on the street on the same set, and you could run them all the way down to the wear bars with little loss of grip. Their wet performance, resistance to hydroplaning and cold temperatures characteristics is astounding and would give you a significant advantage under such conditions on track or the street. They need very little heat to start gripping, and not counting they are much cheaper. For the money they are probably the best street-track tire and I wish they are available for my GT3, & GT2 RS as I will switch and never look back. Hope this helps. Mark
It’s good practice to swap your wheels left/right after each track day, or a number of miles. I have two sets of wheels: one with PS4s tyres, and one with PSC2. The 4s is a much better tyre considering how it performs in different weather and temperatures. The Cup 2 needs to be warm and on a dry surface.
DrPittenstein interesting video thanks. I have a 380 Cup with the original cup 2’s at 6800miles. Still around 2mm on the rear and 3 on the front. I agree they wear well for road and track, can’t complain. I’ve done 2 track days Anglesey (cold day) and Silverstone (wet!). So maybe not a good test yet. I don’t want to make the day cost £800 so always manage temps by doin 8-9 laps then come in to let them cool down. Will keep an eye on uneven wear and will swap sides now you’ve pointed it out :-) PS4s is an interesting point as the cups start with 4mm against the PS4s 7mm! Not sure if they would ruin the handling though. I find the cup2 useless in the wet! Anything with road tyres at Silverstone was passing me! Can I ask how you like the GT430 compared to your V6 cup? Also which tracks do you go to as I’m worried about noise at most (Anglesea and Silverstone wasn’t an issue) I had people telling me all day how loud my car was though!
Hi, you'll find plenty of videos on the GT430 including a back to back comparison around Silverstone with an Exige Cup 430 (which is much quicker than my original V6 Cup). When you're pushing on PS4s won't be up to the job and will overheat much sooner (esp with larger treadblocks). I'd stick with Cup2s. PS4s will only be better in the wet. I found no issues with noise at Castle Combe and Donington run noisy days too. You should be able to get on at Goodwood on a 105db day but it might be wise to short shift in the morning at least and save the full-on laps for later in the day. Brands has become really strict with noise unfortunately but there are still plenty of places to enjoy.
I'd suggest you swap tires left to right, and on a clockwise circuit you will always have more wear on the left side outer edge. I'd also suggest a bit more camber on the left side to help with tire wear. What pressure are you running these tires, hot? They should not go over 32psi hot unless you want to cook them and lose grip.
Surely that can't be right -- One side is going to have incredibly poor/bordering on dangerous wet performance because the water will be channelled inward rather than away from the tire. It doesn't make any sense. Michelin now do the Pilot Sport Cup 2 Connect in the correct size for my RX-8 R3, and I was considering them. However, this has totally tipped the balance towards Hankook Ventus R-S4 for me now. Very informative video. And nice car.
Thanks, it's a compromise to keep the cost down (and profits up!). Only one mould is needed for a given size. Doing bespoke left and rights would cost twice as much no doubt. They are still a very good, very fast tyre, a bit wasted on the road but for track use great for a road legal tyre. I found them fine in the wet providing there isn't deep standing water.
Good observation. From what I've experienced Cup2s perform better than PS4Ss over a small window of time, but then degrade faster. Where PS4Ss perform not as well when setting a few hot laps but have a longer life in them. Have you tried the car with PS4Ss?
No I haven't yet. Sounds like a good suggestion before long euro trips and the like. I think wear rates will be satisfactory with the Cup2 if I swap tyres over left to right between trackdays. We're told it's the ultimate trackday tyre but really it's a very good road and track compromise.
This is the difference between a road and a track tire.. By the way cup2 last more laps than ps4/4s. I tried all of them except 4s on a g.punto abarth with 280hp and bacci diff
How much camber do you have on front? Did you measure the temps on the outside/inside edges and center of the tire when hot on track? You could easily detect and isolate a geo or pressure problem. All assymetric tires have opposite tread design. It's the case of a lot of semi-slicks, R888r, AO52...and i dont think it's the source of your problem.
I always keep an eye on pressures on track and make sure to hit the Michelin recommended target pressure of 2 bar hot. Front camber is currently -1.3. Handling is absolutely superb on track for a road car but I want to keep it nice for the road especially as I have a dedicated race car for the track.
@@DrPittenstein there's your issue imo, for a lot of track use a lot of GT3s on the same tyre run -3.0 front camber. Lotus stock camber settings are very Conservative.
@@HondaExige1 yes but to be fair 911s need more camber to begin with due to strut suspension which doesn’t maintain camber well unlike Evora’s double wishbone set up.
My 380 Cup has done one track day and I am seeing the feathering on both rear tyre edges equally. The rear was breaking away first as I have quite a bit of negative camber up front so just put it down to them getting a proper work out on the rear. Other tyres have shown this in the past on other cars I have had, I have always just taken it as a sign they are getting used properly. Are the trofeo R still being made? Are they are allowed on the road? My 380 has the 285 on the rear which means very few options for me of I want to stay factory spec
My Exige barely wore the fronts. The grooves on the outer part of the Cup2s are a compromise for water clearance. Cup2s are better than Trofeos in heavy rain for sure. Trofeo Rs are still available but I believe Pirelli have discontinued the original Trofeo. I thought it was the Avon ZZR which was no longer road legal?
DrPittenstein that was a genuine question from me on the trofeos, just looking at the tread I would have expected not road legal now a days, but no knowledge. It would be great news of they are.
@@zzkamikazezz ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rrLQpAt5Mes.html 4 years old now already and a paid endorsement but an interesting comparison all the same.
Have you corner balanced your car? No issues for me on GT4, GT3RS and Pista. I had this issue on my Porsches, but after corner balancing, it was all good.
Thanks. I have another car for track use so don't often track the Evora. I had it corner weighted but balance was very good out of the box so left it as is. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-NlAttDzIuaQ.html
It's not too surprising that the tire is wearing relatively evenly "even if" it has relatively a lot of negative camber for a roadcar; your outside is worn more, so you're probably going to want even *more* negative camber. The tire carcass flexes, and thus needs more negative camber than 0 to get a good contact patch pressure. Depends on the tire/brand entirely, but anywhere from -2 to -4 mid-corner for a road-derived tire most of the time. Not static, mid-corner. Some racing tires want even more, -5 or a bit more is not out of the picture. Although it depends entirely on the brand. Yokohama for example is a "high camber" brand, while Dunlop is a "low camber" brand, at least from what I can tell from data. The difference can easily be 1, 2 degrees for a seemingly similar tire. Take into account also that a typical roadcar will lose easily more than a full degree of camber at 1G to compliance (some suspension designs much more), racecars somewhat less but it is still there even with stiff links and upright. A typical MacPherson strut roadcar might lose 1.5 - 2.0deg camber per G, in-wheel DWB cars with stiffer bushings maybe a bit less. Bear in mind as well that the suspension doesn't generally have 100% camber retention, and the tire itself rolls as well, so the more roll you have, the more static camber you need to actually get that optimal negative angle for lateral grip. Adding up all the factors it can be understood why some racecars run even -6 camber. It is true that longitudinal grip does decrease from camber, but it's not that much it seems like. You will make more back from mid-corner grip, but like everything it is a compromise also to do with temperatures and just general drivability. You will potentially lose some turn-in from having a high static camber amount and it might not be supportive of a more passive driving style that doesn't quickly roll the car onto the tire. But hey, don't listen to me, it's just my 0,02.
@@Trophy_R Sorry for being so vague. I was thinking of the feathering "issue" mentioned in the video. What's you experience in that regard? I'm on Pilot Super Sport and have no feather tendencies , but I haven't done any track days with them as I can remember.
Interesting video but I think you've gone down a path that's led to an incorrect conclusion without any sound evidence. The tyre isn't designed for wet use (though it can be used for this if up to temp) so I think the [slight] direction of the outer grooves is moot. Grooves can also work in the wet even if they look like they're running backwards (bike tyres run backwards on the front - not quite the same but just as an example). If you look at the Nankang AR1s (also asymmetric) the design is far more extreme but they work fine. Also look at Vredestein Ultrac Sessanta, another tyre that looks backwards on one side. In the dry tyres don't really car which way they're going (assuming there's no side to side compound differences). Most circuits world wide are clockwise; the Cup2s have probably had most development time on the Nurburgring (especially by Porsche), a clockwise circuit (as is the GP track, and most tracks I can think of). The reason for the scrubbing is just usual shoulder wear occurring from a clockwise circuit and varies tyre to tyre (and pressure/geo/driving style). I've had friends in the same car chew the outer shoulder and run on to the sidewall with these if they're pushed with too much steering angle, where mine wore straight. If you drove left hand circuits the right tyre would show the same wear all else being equal. I think rotating/swapping left to right is best way to maximise life.
Have a look at the follow up video, I got in touch with someone from Michelin who cleared everything up. They have amazing testing facilities of their own. The tread design is optimised for the left side due to most tracks being clockwise (more rights than lefts) as such all Cup 2 moulds are lefts. The ultimate is different moulds for left and right (but then shouldn’t swap left to right) but this is more expensive for the tyre maker and buyer. Makes more sense to do left optimised tyre that you swap over with the rights to even out tyre wear. It’s only that not many trackday people are doing this, my set would have lasted a lot longer if I had but I am doing this from now on.
@@DrPittenstein hey thanks for the reply. I would say it's only a very slight design bias to the left and of course this does differ from your original theory. I still think this is just normal trackday wear you'd see the same on the other side if it was an anticlockwise circuit (although these are pretty rare which is why we're so accustomed to seeing front left wear). It can be mitigated like you say by swapping tyres over and geo but also careful pressure monitoring and even driving style.
I was wrong about them being optimised for the right side of the car, they are left optimised but I was right that they are designed to be swapped over left to right. It was great to get a response from Michelin. Great tyre, I'm still on my original rears but it's time for a new set they were made in 2017 and the recommendation is to ditch Cup 2's after 5 years max.
I think it's exactly the other way around, they've marked the ouside tire just so you can not use it on the other side sooner than the exterior always deteriorates faster.
I'll try a temperature probe on the new fronts at the next trackday but you'd expect the outer edge of the left tyres to be the hottest. I'd like to see a directional Cup2, the current one seems like a cost compromise.
Even on a clockwise circuit, the front left tyre should still have a slightly lower temperature on the outer shoulder than the inner thread. If the outer shoulder is hotter, even more -ve camber is required.
Direction of the grooves will have Zero effect on handling or wear in the dry. My assumption is you pushed to soon and the lefts got hotter without the core coming up to temp first?
Nope, warmed tyres up progressively, adjusted pressures in the pits, did that throughout the day to keep them at the target 2.2 bar hot pressures. Not many trackday drivers bother to do this and just pound around on road pressures. Same thing happened to a friend who was there with the same car and tyre, in fact his were a lot worse. Evora works the front tyres much harder than the Exige which wears rears quickly but fronts last many trackdays. I have increased front camber since this video which has helped a bit. Best solution is to swap tyres over left to right which is what they've been designed to do by Michelin. Again, not many bother but the wear is much more even when you do.
@@DrPittenstein Oh i understand i think your missing the part where the comments are a bit tougue and cheeck because you can warm up your tires at everyone's top speed like its nothing. Just an awesome car mate.
How much camber? I'd expect to see this wear unless running at least - 2.5 degrees, 20 years of track days and you don't know this? Otherwise you're not running enough pressure in that tyre.
I always keep an eye on pressures on track and make sure to hit the Michelin recommended target pressure of 2 bar hot. Rear camber is -2.17 but fronts are -1.3. Handling is absolutely fantastic on track for a road car but I want to keep it nice for the road especially as I have a proper race car for the track.
@@antonroux6737 that’s what Michelin recommend, it’s also the road pressures, 2 bar front, 2.2 bar rear, key thing is 2 bar HOT is the target so you keep letting pressure out of the tyres that work the hardest. Pressures will be way too low for driving home on once they have cooled down so take a foot pump. Try it, it really makes a noticeable difference and your Cup 2s will last much longer.
Yes I would expect that and cover that point in the video. I'm basing my findings on some 20+ years of track driving with many different cars and tyres, this wear is unusual for the mileage covered and large amount of negative camber that the car runs with. As mentioned in the video Michelin design the tyres to be swapped left to right to even out the wear, something I will be doing from now on.
@@DrPittenstein what pressures were you running? With the hhhhuuuuugggeee handbook you should have received when purchasing the tires. The cup 2 takes more air than a lot of people like putting in due to tire tech. I'm coming off conti sport contact 6 in my MUCH heavier car and the front left is absolutely mangled compared to any other tire on the car. I will check back in when I put Cup2's on. Did you have any luck figuring out your issues?
@@hayden401 I aim for 2.2 bar hot. That means letting more and more pressure out throughout the trackday. I’m usually the only person checking tyres during every session on track. Most just pound away on road pressures all day!
@@DrPittenstein might you try a little more pressure? I know you're in a light car, but feel that is low hot pressure for a tire like that in track conditions. Were you able to track temps too? Did you contact Michelin HQ? I got a really big pressure document when I got my previous set but I've misplaced it. I remember pressures being (in comparison to normal pressures) wildly high! I'm very interested in the wear because at nearly 3k aussie they aint cheap to replace
@@hayden401 Normal hot target pressure is 2bar for this type of tyre. In the UK pressures would get extremely high if not released after track use. Must be even worse in OZ. Most don't seem to care but these tyres were very well looked after. I'd get good mileage out of a set if only I swapped sides between trackdays. I did get a response from Michelin it's here in the follow up video I did. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-sVsIzv31zeU.html
Your argument doesn't quite hold up as these have a marked "outside" edge so the outside is always the outside no matter which way you run it. If you have one side looking different then it's the wrong way round ;) You're basically losing tread because you're always on clockwise circuits. Of course that is going to happen. The weight transfer of the car is loading up the front left. You can never avoid this type of wear in reality, best thing is to swap left to right if all you are doing is clockwise track days. It will even out the wear. Also even aggressive road camber wont prevent this kind of wear on track, you need to get quite significant camber on track. Ive spent some time this week In a GT3 RS which has been track optimised and has camber that doesn't work on the road, but the wear on the cup2's was even and flat. If you use your car on the road you have to accept high edge wear on track. If it's a track toy, give it more camber. It's not the tyres that are the problem here.
Take another look at the Cup2s. They are rotating forwards on the right side of the car and backwards on the left. Yes you should swap them over between track days to even out the wear but the tread can't be optimized for both sides of the car if it's only coming out of one mould. I believe Michelin chose the right side of the car as that's the pic they show in their marketing materials. It's not a big deal but I don't think many people are aware that they are compromised in this way. The ultimate version would be rotational, ie designed to rotate only one way which means you'd have optimized tyres on both sides of the car. Probably not worth it for most though.
