I highly recommend measuring the subs with "acoustic timing". Then you can use the REW Alignment Tool to find the best summation of all the subs without trying to input a ton off different delays. It's highly accurate much quicker and only requires to measure each sub once and than use the alignment tool to find the what works best in your room.
EDIT: I changed the subwoofer position and tried the steps discribed below again. This time the timealignement was not good. I got totally different and beter curve results with brads method! What I tried and this seems to work pretty well (I am a REW noob, there could be a better way): 1. Set Measurement in REW to the settings Brad provided 2. Switch to "use acoustic timing reference" 3. Unplug your left main (so that you don't get any signal from it, if you crossover does not go as high) and set the reference speaker to right 4. do a measurement for sub 1, sub 2, ... mute the others respectively 5. in the text under the miniature measurement on the left in REW there is a time and distance now for each sub 6. the time will be negative, what you cannot put into the minidsp 7. take the largest distance from the sub measurements and round it up to something nice 8. put that distance in your AVR for your sub 9. now do the measurements again and you will get new (positive) numbers for time delay 10. put those time delays into the mini dsp for each sub Instead of putting in the delay for each sub you also can set Sub 1 to zero and substract its dealy from the other numbers. It's the same, but the subs are not time aligned with the main R anymore (which Brad does later with the X-over anyway? So there should be no difference here - please correct me if I am wrong). For me this provided a slightly different number as I got by Brad's method (calculated 3,69 vs. 4,7), but the overall sum measurement seems to be pretty close to it as well. I am not sure which I prefere (I got to nasty points at 30 and 90Hz, of course only one of them is better with each method and one is worse...). So - if you are not up for tons of measurements and analysis by eye, this could help, I think.
Great video; very high quality. However, I recommend that you spend a bit more time refining the methodology based on science first, then moving on to trial and error. You should start off the time alignment by using a tape measure and math. Determine the actual distance between the microphone at your preferred listening position and all subs. For example, my 4-sub setup consists of two tapped horns at the front corners and two standard bass-reflex Polk subs at the back (i do not recommend Polk). Not only are the tapped horns 6.6 feet further away than the rear subs, but because of the folding inside the TH's, the drivers are an additional 2 feet away from the front of the enclosure. Calculating the delay at 8.6 feet and using the rough speed of sound (which can vary) of 0.895ms per foot, i would start with a 7.7ms delay applied to each of the tapped horns (or a different number for each if they're not equidistant). From there, I would then fine-tune using the "better or worse" method, stepping up and down by 0.01ms. Trust me when I say that 0.01ms can have a huge impact on the response. Also, don't be fooled by a powerful or even flat response; flat response does not equal low distortion. As such, you also want to look at the distortion of each successive measurement. You can have a nice response with horrible distortion, and your expensive subs will sound like crap, albeit loud crap. Reflections might help to boost dB and give you a deceivingly flat response, but the timing misalignment will wreak havoc on the distortion level, making your bass sound like a whoopie cushion in an echo chamber. I have had a timing difference of only 0.2ms increase distortion from 39% to 300%. It goes without saying that what sounds good in one spot might sound like shit in another. My theater is calibrated for the spot between my right ear and my wife's left ear....everyone else gets whatever they're lucky enough to get.
where do you want your subwoofers gain knob set at when starting REW? And also,do I want my left front speaker still outputting while I am level matching each sub? When I play the pink noise it is still actively playing the noise also. LOL,sorry for the dumb questions!
When you were on the first two subs adding delay, I noted you only tested adding delay to one of the subs and then you settled on 4.2 and then moved on to adding in sub 3. Would there be any benefit after getting the best reading you could from adjusting delay on the left sub, to then adjusting delay on the right sub before moving on to the third sub?
In the playing of the Sub Cal -- 1. Should the front speakers be muted? 2. How did you adjust the subwoofer output to ~77 dB? Changing Input gain or changing Output gain? 3. Are you measuring all subwoofers playing at the same time, ie, with all subwoofers unmuted? 4. if the answer to question 3 is YES, should the individual subwoofers first be adjusted to equal dB before measuring with all subwoofers unmuted?
I don't understand what the graph should look like, so when you say this is not good, I don't know why :) a video that explains the whole graph thing, would be great
Do we have to unplug the 2×4hd after the eq or should we leave it with the AVR... I know it's a dumb question but yeah I wanna know it... thanks in advance
Dude...I've been waiting for a walk through on how to do this! Thanks so much for this video. Now I need to pullout all my measuring tools and try it out!😁
Quick question. I'm about to receive my second sub in the mail next week. When I fallow along with this should I set the first subs DB to 75 using the volume nob on the sub itself and then the second sub using DSP software to match? Or can i just use the volume nob on both. I'm confused as to why you used the svs app for one and not the others? Or is it because you only have one svs sub? Any clarification on that would be greatly appreciated. Or should I set both subs to 12 o'clock and then use the DSP software to set both at 75 DB?
Hay, I have the RX-A4A. If I set it to straight or pure direct before taking measurements, would that work, or do I still need to go disable everything mentioned? Thanks
Hi Brad, thanks for this series...it will be very helpful when my Umik and MiniDSP arrives later this week. One question, though, is since you are running your subs off the miniDSP, before you measure do you adjust the sub distance to 0.0 ft in your Denon since the miniDSP is handling the delay?
I would recommend taking the Denon out of the signal path at first. Connect an audio cable from your laptop to your Input 1 on the MiniDSP (this is where you'll connect your Denon subwoofer out), then the outputs of the MiniDSP to each of your subs. Set the timing of the subs relative to each other and make adjustments (including individual PEQ for each sub) within the MiniDSP. Once you have the subs set up to work together as a team, then you include the Denon. At that point, you can use the Denon's Audyssey mic to make timing measurements for all of your speakers, to include your unified subwoofer team. This is important, because the Denon will see all four subs as only 1 sub, so it's critical that you just focus on getting them working as a team. You will also need to do level matching again once you have all of the subs connected to the Denon.
you level match your fronts to 75db with avr volume set to -17.db . Normally you will use reference level -0db for that ? do you level match all speakers in AVR levels section, when you have run room correction software ?
My friend, do you think this device can help solve the problem of watching movies? that problem with low dialogue and very high action scenes? Is it possible to leave everything in the same volume? I use the optical cable TV/soundbar subwoofer connection via Bluetooth. Please my friend help simple soundbar 2.1
hello minds guru, I have set up the connection as you described in part1 and I have an issue to get the sub input level to come up on minds software after I pressed the play button on the REW generator. I could hear the noise from my left main speaker but the sub. please advise.... you missed this in your part 2 clip
Hey there Brad - Merry Chrisrtmas to you and yours - and your channel! A question for you please - While using the miniDSP where the subwoofers are connected as out 1 and out 2 from the dsp and left sub is connected from sub out 1 from the avr to input 1 on the dsp, should the subwoofer speakerssetting in the avr be changed from 2 subwoofers (as was my case before subscribing to you and getting a minidsp!) to show as 1 subwoofer as the dsp is now controlling?- - or does it matter?
Hi there great tutorials. I used a toslink (optical) cable instead of HDMI to connect my pc to my receiver. When I switch to Sub cal, I also hear the signal also through the left main channel is that normal? Or do I really need HDMI
You said "I set the overall gain to -15db in the app" referenced earlier,huh?, the mini dsp app and that would be the input gain or are you talking about the gain you set on the denon?
how loud do you calibrate? even at -20 db on my receiver I was not getting 75 db C weighted random pink noise in my Umik1... test sound is not clean. it is sparkly. music sounds like it should..
Not at all. I often use my nearly 10 year old Windows 10 laptop for REW measurements and calibration and it works fine. A more powerful computer will shave off a few seconds here and there when doing certain things in REW, but for the most part it’s all the same.
I can't get new to play the sub tone. I have set xover to 250hz . when I press play and L is selected then the left speaker plays, if I choose lfe then almost no sound from sub although plenty of sound if I use avr test tones
So... You don't need to connect HDMI to anything, just send audio to your receiver, integrated, pre, amp, etc. You could do this via analog i.e. Rca I almost didn't get a minidsp because of this. Luckily I checked the minidsp manual
This is true for stereo calibrations. However, with the recent updates to REW and subwoofer calibration and additional features, I would still recommend an HDMI connection if possible. Either the current REW version and an HDMI connection, there is no longer a need to disconnect any speakers when doing subwoofer calibrations or integration with mains.
Great video, Question regarding the level matching section (9:15). After you set the volume with the mains using the receiver remote, are you disconnecting the mains to level match the subs? Or do you keep the mains active when level matching each sub?
Oh wait, I just noticed that you set the play tone to 'Speaker Cal' when volume matching and your changed it to 'Subwoofer Cal' when you level matched the subs.
@@ablerauer I was wondering the same thing. I'll have to try it and see if the left speaker is cut out and not playing during the sub cal or measurement runs.
When I set the tone generator to sub cal, I still get a signal from my left front channel. I have the receiver crossover set to 250hz. Any idea why this may be occuring. I appreciate the help!
Start at 50% gain or around there, then level match them like I do in the video. Although it really doesn’t matter as you’ll need to adjust the volume anyway during level matching, so you can start with the sub volume all the way down and then bring it up from there.
Thanks for making these DSP tutorials. Really hoping you can answer my questions! A few questions for you: 1. In the level matching section are we just level matching our subs with our front left speaker? If yes, why and why not level match with front L+R and why not level match with just the front right speaker? I'm sure this is a super basic question, but I don't get what we're doing and what it's accomplishing. 2. Do we need to set the level of the surround speakers to 0.0dB (Denon receiver>speakers>manual setup>levels>test tone or do we leave those to whatever audyssey setup? 3. Should we run audyssey before we start this? does it matter? 4. I noticed your RMS signal level is set to -12.00dBFS. Mine was set to -20.00dBFS, should I change this to match yours before playing any test tones?
@@hollosym I am running Audyssey!!! If you don’t mind can you send me the online link!!! I like the Brad video but it not clear what to perform from first to last, in his video he said to match with left speaker and turn off adyssey. Watch with -30db on raw.
@@lalithpodduturi9811 the big thing he glossed over is setting the type of sweep in REW to “sub” ie subwoofer. In the end you could simply unplug your front left channel and you’re good. Just make sure you doable all room correction. His method kinda sucks tbh, the better method is using the alignment tool in REW. Here’s a great breakdown: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8bwpLfbLiZ4.html. That guy's channel I linked above has some really great tutorials. He has a JBL SDP-55 processor so it's a tad different when talking about how to disable room correction. You can follow Brad's how-to to disable audyssey room correction on your receiver.
Brad help!!!! Why when I want to run my subwoofer sweeps am I only getting the sound from my front left channel? Seems others have had some similar issues too without any reply.......is there not an answer to this?
That’s really interesting. I’ve not run into that problem. Are you using ASIO4ALL? If you are, try switching to JAVA or using output 4. Also, if you’re speakers are set to large in your receiver, or your receiver is in DIRECT or pure mode, then that might be why as well. You want it set to STEREO or Multichannel Input. And make sure you speakers are set to small. I’d verify all of those things and see what the results are. Sorry I can’t be of more help as I just haven’t experienced that issue.
@@HomeTheaterGamer I have tried everything under the sun. Speakers are at small, levels are 0.0, Audyssey is off, stereo is selected, Switched the Denon back to 1 sub. Using Java. 🤷♂️. Thanks for replying 🙏
@Ryan Lewis just so I’m understanding you correctly, you’re not getting any sound from your subs at all, correct? I’d also make sure to verify that on the MiniDSP software, under the inputs and routing section, that ANALOG is selected. Mine defaulted to USB. Also make sure that all Xovers in the Outputs tab are bypassed.
@@HomeTheaterGamer I have everything set as you just stated. I am getting sound from my subs but also from the mains when setting SPL levels. But, When I take a measurement in REW the subs are not working, just the main as my lowest frequency is 38 which is on par with the RP-8000F.
@@78rlewi I'm having the same issue. When I'm attempting to level match, my left front channel outputs pink noise with the sub cal setting. I'm not getting any noise from my subs. Have you figured this issue out, by any chance? Thanks!
Hmmmm. On the input tab, double check that ANALOG is selected instead of digital or Toslink. I recently helped a friend set up his miniDSP and was surprised that his defaulted to Toslink.
@Alvin Cole I just raised the volume on the receiver until the left front channel reads 75dB on the SPL meter when playing the "SPEAKER CAL" tone in REW. That's it. In my case, that ended up being -17.5dB on my Denon X2300W.
Rew is not recognizing my marantz in the soundcard preference. It only gives me a choice of default device, primary sound driver, speakers ( minidsp 2×4hd) or speakers ( 2 high definition audio device). Any ideas on how to it would recognize my marantz?
Hello Team, I need some help darling in my subwoofers, My question is should I add a house curve in the mini DSP and then run anthems ARC room correction or just use the mini DSP to flatten the response and then add the house curve in anthems ARC room correction? I’ve tried letting the anthem do everything but I think incorporating a miniDSP will achieve better results. I can’t move the subwoofers around my room to improve their in room response as I’m very limited with space.
Purchased a 2nd SUB and a Mini DSP. Working on Time Alignment. 1) should I run Audyssey with "One Sub (the two subs connected to the Mini DSP) for it to estimate a delay/distance for the subs? 2) Once we set Audyssey to "off", do we need to change the AV Subwoofer distance to "0" too?
I am running a Yamaha RX-V685 and I'd like to connect a Crown XLI 1500 to it but I've read that I need a ART CLEANBoxPro Dual-Channel Level Converter. do I still need the clean box if i am already getting a Mini dsp?
Question: I have followed your steps. I have an Anthem MRX720 and set all crossovers to 250Hz. In REW, when I run a measurement with the setting 10Hz to 200Hz, I still get sound out of my front left speaker. Can you give me some insight as to what I am doing wrong?
Can this device be used to expand the left and right surrounds of my HT? I am planning on two rows of seats and each row having their dedicated left and right surround speakers. Therefore out of Pre pro left surround into mini dsp input one and then two out say output 1 and 2 into power amp connected to two left surround speakers. Then same setup to create two right surround with input 2 of dsp and output 3 and 4 and so forth.
Great videos! got everything set up up until level matching. I'm not getting any sound from any of my 4 subwoofers when I'm running the SPL meter. Please help
I just recently upgraded to 4 subs and ran across REW and was wanting to use it to set them up. Is it my understanding that once set up with the dsp 2x4 is complete you leave it linked between your receiver and subs correct?
So glad I watched the video earlier with you and #Youthman at his house and then followed the link to using the Mini DSP with 4 subwoofers. Thank you for all the help!!
Jl audio cr1 crossover vs mini dsp? Is one more preferred? It seems like with minidsp, there is a lot to learn and the jl audio crossover not as much. Any thoughts?
After turning everything off in the receiver and setting the sub level to zero, what is a good general distance for the subwoofer in the receiver to start measurements? Should you just pick one that gives you a decent response to start with?
if you get a laser tape measure and sit in your lisening position and point at the sub from about where your ear usually is. then calculate from the lenght how many ms it takes for sound to travel well at the speed of sound. now say you have a sub behind you measure the same distance and and calculate the same way the ms but take it away from the previous results. this should make it so sound hits you at the same time if the subs play it at the same time. so thats a really good starting point for time alignment
When you match the subs I am having to really adjust the level like in the -20 range. Do you think that is normal? All my gains on the subs are set to 1/2 or almost 1/2.
Awesome video. Thanks for sharing. I gain matched my mismatched subs like in home theater gurus ep 8. Would you recommend gain and level matching or is gain matching alone sufficient?
Wow, what a waste of time. Haven't you heard of Multi-Sub Optimizer tool (MSO)? You take your REW measurements of each sub separately (Audyssey - off) and repeat the measurement for each seat if more than one MLP is needed. You do the measurements with with acousting time alignment enabled. Then you export all measurements as text files into a new MSO project after it was configured to use Minidsp 2x4HD with 10 PEQ filters. Hit calculate and after a few minutes, MSO will generate you Minidsp PEQ filters, the output gain of each sub, the relative delay, and the shared filter (input PEQ) if needed for a house curve you supply... (not recommended if using Audyssey dynamic EQ). Once all the filters are loaded into minidsp, you can run Audyssey with only one sub, which is actually a multiple set of subs already calibrated.
My intention with these guides was to keep things as plain and simple as possible, which unfortunately MSO is anything but simple. It’s an amazing piece of software I’m sure but does require a major investment in time to learn how to use it properly. Time I’m already wasting apparently on someone who thinks this video was a waste of time anyway. To that end, I bid you farewell.
@@HomeTheaterGamer I meant a waste of time going through all the process of manual calibration, which will never give optimum results. MSO has a new wizard which makes the whole process very quick and simple. It takes 3 minutes to setup MSO, once you finished taking the REW measuments.
Hi should I be leaving the output to the left channel (L) when measuring levels on my sub? Or should I be changing the output to LFE? Although I have raised all crossovers and disabled DSP (I think) in my Yamaha receiver I am still getting output from my main channel when using the L channel for the test. Even with the REW setting changed to sub. Not sure if I am perhaps missing something in the Yamaha or if I should switch it to LFE for measuring the level of my sub (I only have one). Thanks for any advice!
Thank you, brat, for the tutorial. I can see many people facing problems when they play (SUB Cal) test tone the front speakers play sound with the sub. If anyone wants to play (SUB Cal) tone from the mains only without the sub they have to put the front speakers to Large instead of small. If you put the speakers to small the mains and sub will play the (SUB Cal test Tone) at the same time. Hopefully, this will help,
For measuring the subs the way Brad is showing then its correct that the front Left speaker also plays the test tone along with the sub of choice? Because thats what is still showing below in the app. Also, what should the gain knob on the back of the sub itself be set to?
Great video this inspired me to give calibrating my subs another go.... I use a Mac so somethings are different so that’s tripped me up a few times in the past with other tutorials ... but I think this video shows some details home theater gurus didn’t really make clear. Thanks for the upload!
Great video! I just bought a UMIK-1 last week and followed your video to get some sweeps of my sub. If I'm running only 2 subs don't you want to add delay to the second also? If they are about the same distance? I'll be adding a second soon and curious. Looking forward to the next video I'm curious on what to do next as far as calibration with audyseey and if you run it next. I like to run my subs hot usually over 80db to get a final trim of -11. 5 maybe some of this will be answered in the next video 👉. Also one more question I have 2 sub outs on my denon should I run just one to the DSP to control my 2 subs? Or both sub outs to the in of the DSP ?
Something I've seen kind of unclear, after disabling room correction, setting sub gain to 0, and XO, do you do anything with the old distance levels or leave them where they were? Thank you!
I typically don’t touch the setting unless there’s something REALLY wrong with the final output that is not correctable when you get to the main to sub time alignment stage. The sub distance itself is nothing more than a phase setting/alignment setting for sub to main integration, which can be done in the miniDSP software.
@@HomeTheaterGamer Just confirming during the measuring and setting up dsp, you leave the old sub distance alone on avr? No need to set to 0 like the gain?
@@YourMovieFix If you have an AVR with a microphone that can do auto measurements, I would recommend using it again AFTER you have set everything up in the miniDSP. This is because all of the changes you make in the miniDSP, especially timing delay, will change the distance that your AVR calculated before introducing the MiniDSP. Even the miniDSP itself adds "distance", because there is a process of ADC (analog to digital), DSP (digital signal processing), and then DAC (digital to analog conversion) that takes place. It is fast, but it may introduce as much as a 1ms delay...which is about a foot of distance. Timing is insanely important; while it can help with SPL, it is critical for sound clarity and coherence. It's the whole reason why expensive AVRs come with microphones in the first place.
There is a reason. Adjusting phase on the subwoofer itself or adding a time delay using the miniDSP both achieve the same thing. Time aligning is basically adding a delay to one sub to match another, which is essentially what the phase adjustment on a subwoofer does (adding a delay to the input signal). I chose to use the miniDSP as it allows for far more granular control down to a 10th of a millisecond and I also find it easier overall.
I've followed the first video and this one to a T, but I can't get sound to play out of my subs. Minidsp is connected, subs are hooked up and on, etc. When I select sub cal it play through my speaker that the speaker cal did.
When you gain match, do you keep the distance from listening position the same? In my room the Front Sub is 11-9 away and the rear sub is 7-6 away. Does it interfere with the delay time?
I wouldn't worry about the distances too much as time alignment with the miniDSP will take care of that. It shouldn't interfere with the delay time at all.
Not that I’m aware of. I’ve had no issues with noise at all (it’s dead silent and there is no audible noise coming from the subwoofers). I’m not sure what you mean by low tabs. Could you elaborate?
Hi thanks for the explanation, why are you using the 90 degree mic cal file if you are calibrating in stereo ? I read in the minidsp that the normal file is to be used when you are calibrating a single speaker (like a sub) please let me know if I got this wrong.
Since he is measuring three speakers in a HT set-up, the mic is in the vertical position and the 90deg cal file is for that position. If your are measuring a single speaker "near field" for it's performance or a stereo 2.1 system you use the mic in the horizontal position and the 0deg cal file. I hope that helps.
