Morality and BoJack Horseman 

www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ivdh8yk7hyq61nu2gxc4v/j2hkcly5xc781.webp?rlkey=nyy9spho9uss295ghbzu03vvu&dl=0

Oh cool, Johnny is here🔥

@@SloanStowe lmao

Oh no, the day I betray Johnny and watch another Bojack creator, he’s there way ahead of me!

Johnny being here makes this full circle

They're really just outing themselves as red flags, cause there's no reason ANY person should look up to Bojack unless they're conflicting people themselves.

Right?! Or when people look up to Homelander from The Boys. He’s meant to be a hated character. People completely miss the point with him.

@@BratzRockAngelsit’s not that they’re red flags it’s that these characters are seen as main characters and typically a main character isn’t seen as bad. We’re taught the main character has to be good by the end. Even so, it is wrong for them to see them as idols, but the people who often see them as idols are often mentally ill. That’s not me being mean but being genuine. It’s often easy to do that. As someone who’s mentally ill I felt awful for Bojack and wanted him to get with one of the other women and be happy…it wasn’t till I got therapy I realized I idealized abusive relationships due to what I was used to in life and past relationships I’ve had. These people who idolize Bojack, the joker, or even Rick get to a point where they don’t listen to the message when the message is for them to try and make them realize the path they’re on. It’s genuinely sad for those who don’t want to change too.

@compassrose1466 That's understandable, and it's true that mental unwellness also plays a part in it. Mentally ill people can still be red flags or toxic though, what you said is 100% true but some people can still be toxic in their relatibility to characters like Bojack, like some of the people who defend his actions against Penny or even blame Penny for the entire situation, saying she "seduced" him, just straight toxicity. Also, as another person who is healing from mental illness, I could definitely see Bojack's struggles with being happy and doing better and such.

I've seen people defend Bojack when it comes to Sarah Lynn's death. Like, it really makes you think that they're idiots or smth

That's genuinely amazing my god

Hey I’m proud of you dude :D

Keep it up dude, I'm proud of you

congrats on your sobriety! awesome work :) very proud uve come so far!!

so proud of you. im a child of alcoholism, and i promise your friends, family , etc are so proud, as am I

Agreed. The subreddit for example is unbearable to read because it seems like it’s just full of people missing *explicitly stated* or at least heavily implied points. Mostly people going on about how Bojack is all around bad and irredeemable and doesn’t deserve any kind of happy ending or improvement and nothing he does to better himself matters because of everything bad hes done, saying “The View From Halfway Down” should’ve been the end and Bojack should’ve died (completely missing what Diane straight up says at the end of the last episode and also refusing to acknowledge how that ending would’ve destroyed Diane given he called her), and ignoring how literally every character is a shitty person in some ways and well meaning in others and that Bojack isn’t the only one who’s done a lot of bad things and hurt a lot of people (cause, ya know, that’s the point, like Diane, again, explicitly states, nobody’s all good or all bad), all while dismissing how anyone other than his parents has hurt Bojack (usually because “he deserves it” or something similar). It’s bizarre seeing people miss the point so majorly when the entire show is “all these characters are complex people with their own issues that end up hurting others and they try to be better but still screw up because that’s how people are: complex and flawed and needing to continuously work to improve and almost certainly going to slip up while improving (if they do improve)”. Of course that’s not the entire message of the show, but it’s a pretty major one, and yet for some reason it seems to have gone over so many people’s heads and/or they just don’t like it and so pretend that’s not the point.

people mocks literary analysis about the curtains been blue meaning something and then fail to understand a show in which the subject is often said explicitly as text in many scenes

@@katcel16 great point. i think people 'dehumanize' bojack too much (or de-horse-ize?), and by doing so, they miss a very important aspect of abuse. we didn't see beatrice's backstory because it was fun lore, for example. we saw the start of a terrible cycle, and for all those seasons it was hard to understand her as a complete individual, just as this cartoonishly evil abusive mother who started out shitty and died shitty. we see how the neglect and abuse she experienced in her own childhood led her to make mistakes that ruined her life and her child's. it's a good parallel to what we've actually witnessed from bojack over the seasons, this feeling of conflict because you can suddenly recognize someone as a whole being, and that means they have reasons for their behavior, however unjustified. as a result, this mentality of cartoonish evil helps trap abuse victims who remember "the good times" and are still figuring out how to come to terms with the abuse ("is your abuser really that abusive? she has her reasons, you should try to understand her"). it also helps us disassociate ourselves from the possibility of ever becoming abusive, because we know we're not born evil, so if abusers are just unabashedly evil, then there's no way anyone who isn't irredeemably evil start-to-finish could be abusive. it's not just missing the point to disregard how the show humanizes the bad characters; it's actively harmful, in my opinion, and speaks to a larger misunderstanding of abuse in general. abusers are people. recognizing that doesn't redeem them, it puts their behavior into proper perspective. it makes it clear that they choose to keep walking a bad path, they weren't just born walking it; people get abused every day and don't turn into creeps or predators or abusers themselves. it is an active choice, which means that you can *stop choosing it*. you can decide to be better, and that doesn't redeem you either, but it's better than staying worse. it's better than going out with a bang that ruins everyone around you for the very last time. to decide to change is the only reasonable ending for bojack after all of these seasons of fighting with himself and his toxic coping mechanisms. otherwise what was the point? abusers can't ever change their ways, so unless they die or end up in prison forever we just have to accept their presence and expect nothing better? if abusers are born evil and irredeemable, how can anyone expect anything but abuse from them? lions kill things, often painfully. we recognize that this is part of their nature and we don't expect them to suddenly learn a human concept like "killing is wrong". so how can we expect a born-abuser to learn that abusing is wrong? this is incorrect because they are people, as capable of realizing their actions as you and i. it doesn't matter if they "deserve to get better" - getting better is not about them, it's about the people who suffer at their hands. it's not redemption, it's harm reduction. we are here to stop people from being abused, not pat ourselves on the back for feeling morally superior. that is one of the many important points the show makes.

when the show was still airing i was terrified that they would have a bad mentality around abuse, as an abuse victim. i don't know how many people here have been watching since it first started, but pre-philbert, a lot of fans genuinely idolized bojack. the showrunners came back with a vengeance and slapped diane's monologue at the premiere into our faces, letting us know that they knew exactly who bojack was. this was necessary at the time, as the fans were definitely going the rick sanchez blind idolization route before that. after the whole show has aired though, and the writers have said everything they want to say, it's pretty clear that they showed us bojack being funny and relatable for a reason. people went from one bad media literacy take to the complete opposite one, i think.

@@katcel16 Saying that the show should have ended in "The view from halfway down" doesnt mean you didnt understand the show. It made a lot of sense with all the message the show tried to say all the seasons. Shit happens, and it doesnt matter if you are "good" or "bad" or trying to improve yourself. Real life is full of examples like Elvis Presley, Jim Morrison, Heath Ledger, Whitney Houston, Amy Winehouse etc.. Bojack getting drunk and dying in a pool was in character and it was perfect. But they didnt have the courage to fully commit to it.

I wouldn't go that far. Penny was 17-years-old during the incident. And Bojack definitely shouldn't have tried to sleep with her, most people forget that Bojack didn't have an interest in Penny until her mother rejected him after he & Charlotte kissed. Yet no one brings up the fact that Charlotte committed adultery with Bojack. Not to mention before all of that Bojack left alcohol poisoned teenage girl at the hospital with her boyfriend taking the fall. And no one else speaks about that either. But almost sleeping with Penny is the thing that upsets the audience the most ?

@@seeleunit2000 17 years old is a child man what the fuck are you talking about

Yes. Cheating on your spouse and giving alcohol to kids are bad, but the power gulf (she’s 17; he’s a movie star in his mid-50s) makes it fundamentally predatory. Bojack sets himself up firmly as a guardian figure before trying to take advantage of her. Looking at everything he’s done, his s3 interaction with Sarah Lynn is the only thing that comes close - and he commits more or less the same sin shortly before that, the only difference being that since she’s also a celebrity, the power gulf of him being a role model in her life isn’t quite as blaring. That’s the only thing people overlook imo

@@seeleunit2000 "Oh Bojack didnt have an interesnt in her until her mom rejected him" that makes it worse, my guy

@@seeleunit2000​​⁠ probably because what he did was creepy and nearly illegal? and she is a child. there was a whole point made about bojack stating the age of consent was 17 to defend himself because he KNEW it was wrong and that in itself is entirely predatory. he was 50 years old and Penny was absolutely not mature enough to commit “adultery” with an almost senior man. He was the superior and should have said NO. And he took interest in Penny after Charlotte rejected him to live out a fantasy that he could never have.

“Therapy? I inherited this from my _grandmother,_ thank you very much” 😂

the finale always messes me up for days. Can't believe how good it is

What I also love about the show is that ALL of the character's actions have consequences, positive or negative, even seasons later. Like when Bojack hooked up with Sarah Lynn back in season 1, and it is brought up again a few time, and then slammed back into his face in the final season. I appreciate that it is not only good continuity, but it also shows that everything matter, every words or actions matter, it wasn't a joke, it was f*cked up and the consequences are there.

@@LeoDBWIn other words: the WRITING has consequences, which goes to show how serious they took it. I guess you could say the writers weren't horsin' around! eh? eh?

@@LeoDBWI don’t know, it feels like the only ones to ever actually face consequences are Bojack Mr. Peanutbutter. Everybody else gets off largely Scott-free (especially Todd).

I subscribed to you two years ago, and somehow still remember you, even though I don't remember why I subscribed in the first place. Guess that's kind of funny.

I couldn't agree more!

Her breaking down wondering if she's "busted" always got to me for this very reason.

Same! I've struggled with depression and as an artist, her worrying that her damage isn't "good damage" in season 6 was something I related a little too hard with.

Same. My personality is similar to Diane and I also struggled with depression as well. She’s my favorite character in the show as well.

@@annaleena1975saaaame. Good Damage might be my favourite episode of the whole show

completely! i honestly would have fired her too and i LIKE princess carolyn!

Yeah, I think it’s important to acknowledge that PC is both a caring, hardworking, and helpful person who does a lot for the people in her life, and a seflish, cutthroat businesswoman who will defend, enable, and even do abhorrent things for the sake of personal gain.

I mean Schafrillas Products talk about disliking PC for this reason, but sloan def goes into a better analysis into it.

I mean a good bit of people do but they do it in a way that competently villanizes her. This show does character nuance so well and this video’s nuance with pc as a character is very impressive to me

she appears selfless bc she expects to gain

That's actually so cool of a fact, dang

I love “Bojack lore enthusiast” as a title

@@CaulkMongler if I'm gonna spend months of my life obsessing over this show I might as well claim a cool title for it lol

@@chris_freaky305 you can sorta tell with how they foreshadow some plot points. they mostly only foreshadowed things that would happen next season, as that's all they knew they would get.

This is cool but it makes me wish they would just do that with all their shows, it clearly produces better television

Real

for the 4th time

Rewatching Bojack always means a lot of mental prep work for me

I love the show so much I just can't watch it episode through episode like the first time, I just can't 🥲

Wait you guys stopped rewatching bojack?

I would say the internet has been terrible for media literacy

I agree, especially because those who weren't around to grow up using the internet were left with a lot of confusion surround how to be literate online. Thats why older generations fall victim to scams so easily. @@notthefbi7015

*surrounding.... damnit. That's ironic.

I dunno if I agree with this analysis. I think media literacy has always been low, and possibly has improved over time, but we live in an age where we can easily hear the opinions of everyone who ultimately didn't see the authors intended message, and we interpret our subjective experience as an objective proof.

​@@notthefbi7015the internet made me learn alot

I think that that's beautiful, man

Me too. The concept and reinforcement of "you have to be responsible for your own happiness" really changed my life.

Yea it really helps contextualise your own life

​@@conordempsey8854how can you possibly be responsible for your own happiness. You don't get to choose whether or not you're happy.

@@Jeremy-hx7zj a lot to dig into for one RU-vid comment 😂 Google "BoJack Horseman responsible for own happiness" and you'll see lots of discussion on this idea. In essence, it's not about choosing to be happy, it's about taking control of your life and acknowledging that you have the power to change.

Blahblahblah

@@cdogthehedgehog6923 did i say to much?

​@@Fizzy.subliminalsnah you're fine, the other is being an ass

Absolutely. Bojack has always been the thing to uplift me through my own depression and anxiety cause it's so firmly against hopelessness, and even what we see as our worst selves are capable of getting better. "Life's a bitch, then you keep on living."

The comment section makes the series sound like it was made for losers with depression and addiction. Guess I'll pass. Am not a sadboy so might not relate lol.

I feel Todd suffered from the show being cut short. They clearly wanted to add depth to his character with his visiting parents plotline, but one heartfelt conversation with his dad after his mom got hospitalized due to some wacky hijinks ain't doing it for me.

And it’s all sacrificed for a “lol Todd has white privilege” joke.

I agree. Although I want to defend Todd a little bit. He is patronized by Bojack and since the series is mostly his view, his lack of responsibility might just be because of that patronizing. In the episode about Todd we clearly see his thought process, and how -even when it doesn’t seem like it, he thinks about other people, he tries to act morally and he tries to give advice to people on how to make other people feel better (fashion show). Also, after the year where Bojack was away, he sets clear boundaries and overall becomes more responsible. I really love this arc and I don’t really know how to describe it, but Todd is a lovable, complex, great character.

And yet they don't understand that with the character Bojack he tries to be better. Unless you try to be a better you'll still be in the same rut. Change is exhausting and time consuming, not to mention you find yourself falling back and a bad habits, however it's worth it.

​@@seeleunit2000Also, from the beginning we see that Bojack could be better, but the very environment he's in is toxic and sparks some of his toxic behaviour but running away isn't the solution either. I think the final was saying that; that Bojack needed to stay away from Hollywood, from his acting career, maybe even leave his friends. He needs to start anew and face the consequences of his actions. That is indeed a huge change, but it's how he can really start healing.

​@seeleunit2000 he ends up in the same rut anyway. And, his trying to change doesn't always work. I get what you're saying. But he doesn't actually succeed. And some folks try to be better, but end up the same way. It's. Frustrating to watch. It's harder to live.

I love Bojack bcs he’s such a flawed, terrible and in some ways relatable character but he is NOT to be idolised

I would run so far away from those ppl icl 😭

"Too many video essays are just people stating the obvious without a point or analysis" Those videos really annoy me. It's all just pretentious style-over-substance fluff to make the youtuber look smarter than they actually are.

@@anormalguy9320 And they'll have rlly interesting titles too 💔

That ticked me off so much that not only did she never face any repercussions for it but we never saw how it affected Penny. Like, the show makes sure Bojack always faces retribution whether it’s from himself, his friends or the God’s eye view, but it never does the same to any of the other cast despite them doing stuff either nearly or just as bad.

I'm sure there's a lot of viewers who thought they were more of a Todd only to find out they are more of a Bojack I just hope most of us escape the tar

How do you take true accountability? What does that mean?

@@Jeremy-hx7zj plenty of people, an example being Bo Jack, feel that saying sorry and ‘accepting’ you did a bad thing is enough to have people forgive you, when i believe it takes a lot more than that. Beyond saying sorry, you have to actually feel it. You take what you did and actually learn from it, and try to show the people you’ve hurt you do not want to do that to them again. The biggest example in the show I believe would be when Bo Jack and Sarah Lynn go on their apology tour. They take little account for the people they’ve hurt, and just want to make themselves feel better, sloppily apologizing to people they’ve genuinely wronged.

@@prince5233An apology is only real if you actually mean it. You have to mean it, because if you don’t it shows you don’t regret hurting them, just that you regret the consequences you faced. Whether or not they believe you is still up to them, but if you only feel bad after you see consequences you’re not really all that sorry and they know that.

I found it easy to spot Diane’s shortcomings because honestly I could recognize them in myself. I always had trouble articulating it without being lumped in the Diane-hating, Bojack apologists. So I’m also pretty grateful to have Diane’s faults laid out in plain terms, just like all the other characters.

seriously. I'm a big fan of Schafrillas Productions, and he is openly not a fan of PC because she does morally wrong things and never seems to be addressed directly about it--I think this author did a great job of explaining why that's unnecessary and not important to her character while also outlining why someone might expect it to be since Bojack and Diane are going through it and they're our main characters.

@@truanalain4266 I don’t trust a damn thing that comes out of that guy’s mouth anymore bc his season 2 analysis was SO bad. “Wanda’s coma has no plot relevance and is unimportant.” Or something very similar. Like how the hell do you fail to comprehend that? Also not liking PC is a pretty big deal breaker, but that’s just me.

@@knifewife4390 I don't know exactly what part you're talking about, so I can't comment on that. Keep in mind, he was just praising a series--not going into a deep dive on everything. The things he said are his opinions and hardly any of them, except for dianne telling penny's story, are even criticisms of what the show should have done. You don't have to agree that he dislikes PC, but what is this trust? He's just a YT reviewer, not someone trying to make convincing arguments

@@knifewife4390 PC is very apparent in her personal motivations being worryingly devoid of any true moral impact and this video was very clear in that, yet you still somehow think not liking PC is a deal breaker which I think is in turn a much bigger deal breaker. It's fine to like PC because she's a fun and spunky character, but that's where I personally would draw the line. If you like her because you think she's a great person, then I think that's a problem.

@@truanalain4266 fair enough. I guess what I mean to say is misunderstanding such a fundamental part of why Wanda and Bojack got together in the first place just really doesn’t sit well with me. So even though it was a review and not an analysis, it’s still blatantly wrong. There are plenty of valid points he makes, like as you said abt Penny, I just keep getting stuck on the other stuff 😅

yeah i agree. People have this idea that sacrifice needs to be made in order for a good act to be honorable, and that feels fallacious

its not so much that you’re supposed to hate it or dislike it. its more so, if youre getting something out of it anyways, did you really do it for that person? obviously it doesnt apply to everything. you can buy two tickets, one for someone else and youre getting the same thing out of it? thats much different than, you really wanted to go to wendys and your moms there. youd have to pay for her too but youre willing to because you still want wendys. youre not doing it for your mom; youre doing it for you. does that make sense???

@@stopweepin yeah, except that's not the context of the statement in Bojack Horseman at all

@@vincentcavanagh1784 it is! i used different examples due to my horrible memory! i cant give you a specific scenario from bojack. but apply my examples to bojack and it will make sense

@stopweepin in Bojack, the guy says this for actions that had no tangible benefit for Princess Carolyn other than her feeling good about being helpful. That is the context of my comment because it was in response to the bit from the show.

Honestly saying that "good and bad peaple doesn't exist, we are all human" kind of justify peaple bad action in some way, since "we are all complicated human being so it's ok to act like a dick". I think it's better to work on ourselve and be a better person rather then justify our bad action because "we are complicated".

​@@gastounmanar9814 so you didn't watch the video I guess

@@gastounmanar9814being bad is part of humanity, dehumanizing doing bad often leads to dehumanizing ‘bad’ people, which a lot of people use to justify abusing those ‘bad people’

@@gastounmanar9814 I think this can be true in some cases. Trying to find the good in abusers and such can lead to them being enabled.

@@lordfreerealestate8302 the reason is exactly not to give abusers the leeway when they abuse people. Its important to find the good in them, and help them pursue that, but at the same time the only way for them to change is to hold them accountable for the shitty things they do, and showing them they can be good, if they do not give up on themselves. That being bad is a choice, a choice they can always stop making. Some people will never like them, and thats something they have to live with, but they have to choose, and if they keep choosing to do bad things, they are responsible for that.

I don't think he tried to take his life at the end of season 3. I think he tried to let go of being in control and going with the flow of things

@@juannaym8488 generally you don't do that by letting go of the steering wheel and stepping on the gas with your eyes closed.

@@juannaym8488 if i remember correctly he does say in the next season that at this moment he was trying to end it.

Yeah, I don't know what season if pre-philibert or post-philbert but Bojack taught me to really look into justifying shitty behaviour due to mental illness and incompentenze. I am forever grateful for this show for not allowing me to pull the wool over my eyes. My aunt, god bless her soul, cared but she enable a bad looping fallacy of thought. Just because one is sick doesn't excuse them of their actions or inactions. The thing I love about this show, is the undeniable nuancense. Fufflkins talk about the happiness vs Diana's Responsability to said happiness of others. It's annoying when people put these characters into a small black and white box, refusing to see the humanity reflected about ourself. Bojack defenders remind me of those who hated (and fully blame) Skylar because they refuse to acknowledge BB Main character was obviously not a good man. Skylar is far from likeable but she had every right to be upset. I'm so grateful for this show as it taught a certain self-reflection that's hard to swallow.

It always amuses me how two people can watch exactly the same show and come out of it with completely different takeaways

Isnt it also a bit like Hollyhock drugging Todd and Bojack, Todd committing genocide and PC dating a child? Because the series is clearly not directing us at all into the victims perspective. We could judge her for emotionally lashing out at Bojack, but this argument of what its like for the victim is taking it quite farther than the series meant I believe.

And the show *never calls her out on it*.

When I first watched the scene I viewed it as Diane covering for Bojack by making the recording sound like he was running lines.

@@FloorMaassenTodd committed genocide?! When?!

@@monroe7532when he changes places with the Cordovian Prince. Someone asks him if they should go ahead with what they talked about (not specifying what they had talked about) and Todd guesses “Yes.” Apparently that causes genocide.

I think there is also the other side of "misunderstanding". Many people seem to wish bojack would have died at the end, deeming him to be unredeemable. I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the show is about aswell.

Bojack is my hero.

@@coachmcguirk6297 The suicide helpline is 988. Just so you know.

I wasn’t sure if I liked her at first for a different reason. I was afraid that they were going to make her a generic moral compass love interest. But once we got to explore Diane’s thoughts and actions divorced from the expectation Bojack put on Diane (and all the women in his life) to save him, I loved her. I wanted to shake her at times but more because I saw too much of myself in her and wanted to scream at my past (and present) self. Or at the very least stop her from doing the same shit I did.

Not really. Show is very direct with who you should root for and from 5 season it becomes so obvious, that it start to look like a lesson in kid's show

Thank you so much!! 💖

As a side note, I've seen a lot of people compare this show to The Venture Bros (also fantastic, check it out if you haven't) and discuss how Rusty and most of the cast fit as better representations of the character roles of this show, Bojack especially and while I don't disagree as far as the technical purposes between two shows that discuss celebrity culture, generational trauma, and the concept of legacy, I think the comparison is just a bit unfair between how direct either is with what they satirize and how much they focus on the mentality of the main characters. Neither show is perfect, but just purely from observation of either's arcs, Rusty doesn't change his personality as much as he just learns to mature it, while conversely Bojack's personality is always changing but isn't consistent for long enough to mature the way it should.

Best of luck everything goes well for you!

yeah, it's a false dichotomy. people are complex, foolish to simplify intentions & actions as either black & white tbh. but i suppose the basis for these judgements are based on who sees it and what consequences they take from it. outside of that person's judgment, there's still many other evaluations happening in other people. it's all mixed and the narrower it's viewed the simpler the answer/judgement.

There is plenty of art around for all tastes, some is just there to enjoy and some to question ourselves and our environment. I think this kinda of art, the latter, should be more funded. The real issue is funding this sort of series. It really depends on who wants to put money on something that can have a risky investment return.

I think people generally use “let people enjoy things” to critique those who criticize others for enjoying things outside the norm. That’s just my subjective experience though.

Bojack didn't actually sleep with a minor so... L take.

@@nobody-wz7lwshe literally wrote “nearly sleeping with a minor”

@@tobioswife5355 For real... proving my point people can't read properly 😭

Diane is flawed but the fact that people actually try to say she's worse than Bojack is definitely because they want to take the slack off of Bojack, that or misogyny. Her growth is also really impactful throughout the show.

I mean, I think it's a good effort retcon to cover for the show having been cancelled earlier then planned and the writers wisely feeling like they couldn't tackle what they'd built up with Penny in the time they had left in a sensitive manner. The show is just dense in set up, symbolism and motifs, and I don't think if that was always the direction they'd just hold off on building up a reveal in the background just for shock value.

Diane is probably my favorite character, she reminds me of myself so much. Her deep need to do good but her failure to feel fulfilled by the little that she can do is something I relate a lot to. Sometimes it seems like such a good thing- but sometimes it does seem to go too far and harm others, and gets caught up in hey ideas of what’s right. That’s very much like me, and I grapple with it.

Goodnight Pun-Pun might leave you in a more pessimistic place

Thank you so much for your support ❤️