An important distinction: The position the Dunyain hold is that free will does exist (the "self moving soul") but that it is hindered and constrained by Ideology (in the Hegelian sense) i.e., events and forces and beliefs beyond one's control. So essentially they believe that humans have free will, but that it is shackled by circumstance and can be unlocked through their hyper-rational thinking and logic. Khellus himself later confronts the assumptions of the Dunyain from both angles, I.E., can reason itself be a prison, and can the irrational emotion of, say, love, be a form of freedom in and of itself? The answer, ironically, ultimately comes from the least likely character, the most violent of all men...
Excellent review, Philip! There's so much repulsive content written with such beautiful prose. Somehow the two are made more striking through that contrast. I had a similar experience as you with this trilogy, and I'm excited to discuss it with you and the others!
Glad you liked it so much! It's my favorite fantasy series of all time (I've even got a tattoo of the Circumfix) for all the reasons you listed out. I'll be interested to see what you think of the next series, it's even bleaker tbh. Even with as much as I love it, it's not one I can always recommend to people because of the sexual violence content within it. Very cool to see more booktubers talking about it though, Bakker is an all-timer for me, I hope he ends up coming out with the third series at some point.
Bakker is immensely talented to the point where I think the "genius" label is not an exaggeration. He can do things with prose that most of us cannot. That said, this series, as awesome at it is, will have limitations on its audience because of the sexual violence and bleakness. Kudos to Bakker for pursuing his vision regardless.
Bakker’s writing is just too excellent for me not to finish The Second Apocalypse. Temperamentally, I may not be his ideal audience, but that doesn’t prevent me from recognizing his genius. I’m looking forward to the rest!
Thanks for this breakdown Dr. Chase! I keep hearing about Bakker, and this video finally got me to add it to my TBR. No clue when I'd get to it but... eventually!
What a review! I had to stop watching at about two thirds of the video not because it was bad but because I didn't want to hear even the smallest of additional spoilers. I have watched reviews by Jimmy and Johanna among others booktubers on this series and they were all great, of course but yours has made me decide that I want to read this trilogy sometime in the future. Thank you, Philip.
Bakker’s writing is top notch, and I enjoy the challenges that his storytelling poses. I look forward to eventually reading the rest of The Second Apocalypse.
Great review! The Darkness That Comes Before is going to be read as soon as I finish up Blood and Bone. I have been searching for a good synopsis without getting into specific details in order to prepare myself and I believe you walked that line incredibly well in this review! Thank you so much for the content
Thanks for this review Philip! It sounds right up my alley…if I’m feeling in the mood for some deeply disturbing and bleak reading, which I am sometimes. 🙂
Thank you for the video! Always great to hear your thoughts, Bakker with no doubt is the best out the. Warning, the end will shock you, no spoilers more!
Great review of the series. I had a similar feelings on what you emphasis as strengths and weakness to the trilogy. I went into this series a little nervous that it was going to be too edgelord for me but Bakker's writing was so beautiful and smart that he held my attention early and delivered. If a lesser writer attempted this I would have chucked it into the trash immediately. I was even more impressed by Bakker's writing in Aspect-Emperor, so I'm glad you are continuing on eventually. Thanks for the thoughtful video.
Thanks, Andrew! I entirely agree that it takes considerable craft to pull off what Bakker’s done here. I don’t “enjoy” the story much of the time, but I’m in awe of the writing.
Your review is excellent Philip! It gives me no little ease hearing your analysis and reading on the comment section so many people that enjoyed the work of Mr. Bakker in spite of the sexual violence and the bleakness. I had the nagging suspicion that I was broken as a human being for liking it... always glad to find that you are not alone! We all need a little of collective delusion to get by, and finding that your interpretation is shared by others is healing, SPECIALLY in a trilogy as caustic to the soul like this one. Kudos for your skill at putting the sentiment into spoken words!
I appreciate that feedback deeply, Alejo! There is so much exploration of the human condition in Bakker's writing, and though I would not recommend Prince of Nothing to everyone, I can hold it up as an excellent example of what literature can do in terms of portraying themes that we ought to confront. All the best!
I laughed out loud with the toilet and I was in a coffee place. I was almost sure that your final line would be "Sweet Sejenus, remember to wash your anuses". We always make fun of these lines with my friends who have read Bakker. Unwashed anuses, apes and arched phalluses 😂 I am really happy you appreciated his writing. I was pretty nervous before you started but I am happy to see him getting the praise I think he deserves. He is too good and uncompromising as an author to be under the radars. Especially for a genre that is not famous, falsely or not, for the quality of its writing.
"Uncompromising" is a good adjective for Bakker's writing, and it's pretty astounding what he's able to pull off. It's an incredibly provocative trilogy, and I'm sure the rest of The Second Apocalypse will have me thinking a lot. I'm glad I could give you a laugh!
Am glad to hear you are continuing. It is hard to turn away from Bakker's writing as much as you might want to. His writing just stays with you. The freewill aspect is fairly nuanced. Rather then looking at the cosmic scale, I see it that many would just rather have their decisions made for them freely relinquishing their freewill. Consequence is another. How do people act when there are no consequences? This happens a lot in holy wars where everything is forgiven. Here you also have the otherside of how you act when you know you are damned. He also does something I don't think I have seen anywhere else. So to avoid spoilers - WHAT AM I?
Bakker’s writing is strangely fascinating, repulsive, and beautiful. I agree that there is nuance in the question of free will in his story. He takes a clear stand against certainty, which is at the root of holy war. I’m glad to have read Prince of Nothing and look forward to the rest eventually.
When you said sweet Sejenus, I died. 🤣. This is one of the most Grimdark books I have ever read. I feel that the bleak depraved tone was necessary as a medium to communicate the themes and the depth that Bakker was going for. This perfectly illustrates why I love grimdark so much. My only issue with the book is that I wish there was someone else on Kellus's intellectual level that could challenge his ideas. He truly didn't have any equal. I would have loved to see him fall on his face a few times or pay for his ignorance (for the brief time he was ignorant on a topic) in a way that mattered to him. All in all. It's one of my top 3 favorite books of all time. Great insight!
I don't know if Bakker was thinking about writing grimdark, but this is the most grimdark tale (according to my understanding of grimdark) I've ever read. And it's brilliant!
Bakker has made me want to enter into the world of philosophy, theology, and the topics that interweave between them. A beautiful series, but you have to stick with it because it's heavy. Can't wait to hear your thoughts on this one in more detail Philip.
I'm obsessed with this series right now. I have 250 pages left in The Thousandfold Thought and listening to you and the crew talk about it has not helped ease the excitement lol I live in the same town as R.Scott Bakker and went to the college he teaches at and somehow just found his books. 😅
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I think you're right, now that you say that. I only had my first introduction to philosophy last year, and hey, now Bakker has me thinking that none of this was ever MY choice anyways 😉
NICE! Putting this on my to be read list. I think my tastes run similar to yours and Petrik Leo. ( his enthusiasm over the Dandy Lions is infectious. A guy named Leo loving Dandy lions😆) Addressing your thoughts on fiction that makes you uncomfortable . Years ago , back in Blockbuster days, I was excited to watch Train Spotting. Love Ewan McGregor. A lot of hype about movie. Just a few minutes in he sticks his hand into the dirtiest toilet in Scotland to retrieve drugs. Clicked it off. Never finished it. Kindred on Hulu? Based on novel by Octavia Butler which I have not read. Yet. Really good. But scenes that are so painful to watch. Acting is excellent . Recommend it .
I recall that scene in Trainspotting! Very visceral stuff, for sure, and not a scene I can bleach from my memory. Prince of Nothing is visceral too, but in a way that I find thought-provoking. I hope you'll enjoy it when you get to it, Robert!
I never thought I'd hear Bakker compared to Gulliver's travels, but I do see it from my long ago memories of reading that. I agree that The Warrior Prophet was the best paced, but I did find myself breezing through The Thousandfold Thought (and the tension between two characters was excellently built IMO).
I'm glad you had a positive experience with The Thousandfold Thought, Oso. I mostly did too, and the ending was tremendous. Part 4 of Gulliver's Travels (with the Yahoos) is especially what I was thinking of, but really the whole thing is relevant to Bakker's presentation of humanity, I think. Cheers!
I admit it: I heard you do an outro much like it, and I found it so original that I thought I’d give it my own spin. I’m glad you like it! I would actually pay money to watch you review The Darkness That Comes Before. I would pay double to hear you and Jimmy discuss it. 😁
The part about certainty also reminded me a bit of Daniel Abraham's Dagger and the Coin from which I vividly remember this quote : "If Justice is based on certainty, but certainty is not truth, atrocities become possible. We're seeing the first of them now - More will come. Probably." I really like when Authors play with these elements and you just made an even better case for prince of nothing being one of my next reads. :D
I think I would really like this series, but I'm doing a re-read of Malazan right now and I'm not sure I could handle both at once. Erikson also has some bleakness and sexual violence. From you and others' descriptions it sounds like Bakker may have even more, but I do love excellent prose and I do love history and am very familiar with the crusades. This really draws me to the whole premise of these books along with the themes you mention that he explores. Once again, you do what excellent reviewers should do and given me a lot to think about!
I completely agree with King Plunger -- Prince of Nothing is much bleaker than Malazan. The latter's emphasis on compassion gives it an element of hope that Prince of Nothing lacks. That said, I think you'd get a LOT out of Bakker's writing, Jarrod.
Malazan is also funny as hell and even the underwold and shadow realm are full of good guys. SA has no reprieve its a dive into the deepest darkness of man.
i really wanted to read bakker for a long time now but when i read the synopsis and looking at the cover was kind of intimidating at the time, i might try to read his works someday ... i like how you have a trigger warning but instead of discouraging us, you only pointed to the flaws of it ...
I definitely think a trigger warning is appropriate here, but there is much of value to Bakker's writing if you aren't too disturbed by the sexual violence. Cheers!
Your comparison with Swift is great and very true. Even if I do not share it, this abhorrence of man has something noble for me because it does not remain indifferent.
Both Bakker and Swift present humanity as fundamentally selfish, grotesque, and ignorant creatures, and while that’s not a complete picture, it’s perhaps true much of the time. I think we would do well to heed such critiques of our species. Cheers, Mirko!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Absolutely! Even and especially if you, like me (and I assume also you), have not yet lost faith in the good in people. But something else: I'm so mad at myself that I haven't improved my English enough to read (and enjoy) your trilogy this year. Who do you think will be faster? Me in learning or the German publishers? 😉 In any case, I wish you good luck and success already and will make an effort to catch up quickly.
Lmao, Philip. The unwashed anuses bit is the peak of your dad-ness. Also, I think Bakker is spot-on with his view of free will. As I see it, the argument against free will is short and irrefutable: Premise 1: Every decision that every person “makes” is in line with some preference they have. Premise 2: People’s preferences are entirely determined by their biology and the environment they’re born into. Premise 3: Nobody has any control over their biology or the environment they’re born into. Conclusion: Nobody has any control over their preferences, and consequently, no control over their decisions. This line of thinking has vast societal implications that I’ve yet to come to terms with-the most glaring being imprisonment (and punishment, in general). Are people really guilty of actions they had no control over? Even if they aren’t, I suppose it still makes sense to isolate dangerous people from the general public. But a lack of free will certainly compels me to question how poorly they should be treated.
That’s actually a relief since it means I have no choice about making dad jokes! 😁 You put the argument against free will succinctly and very well. I probably agree, but I think there’s a tiny bit of room for debate on the word “entirely” in premise 2. And I do mean tiny. The implications of there being no free will are vast, of course - criminal justice being exhibit A.
In retrospect, I realize that was a really long comment. As I know you're a true gent that replies to every comment, I apologize if that was too much for you to address--surely you must be busy. I suppose I had no control over the length, though. Cheers, Philip!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy For me it had a perfect ending. I have no idea where he would go either forward or prequels and don't think I would want him to. Perhaps he just said what he wanted to say and is done.
@Eric McLuen He definitely talked about writing another trilogy, but that has been a long time ago. And even if he decided to leave it at that, it would still be nice to hear from him. It doesn't have to a sequel after all, he could write something else entirely
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy His publishers won't pick up a third series because his first two apparently haven't sold well, so he says that he'll have to self-publish them, but he needs to eat so he needs to work before he can allocate time to writing and publishing as an indie. That's the last he said about it.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on The Great Ordeal. 2023 is gonna be the Malazan year for me, and a few standalone classics that I've been putting off for a while.
Definitely. I am not a fan of Erikson's writing and Bakker is my favourite author. They share some similarities in themes and density, but their approach to storytelling is very different. Bakker focuses much more to fewer povs and arcs than Erikson who paints a veeeeery wide picture. Bakker focuses more in the moments depth and not the width. I hope I make myself understandable
Red21Viper makes an excellent point about scope. Erikson's scope is wider, so if that's what you don't like about Malazan, then you might be fine with Prince of Nothing. However, if it's the bleakness in Malazan you don't like, then I would say that Prince of Nothing is much bleaker than Malazan, and I would predict that it wouldn't be for you. Both Erikson and Bakker are, in my opinion, brilliant writers, but their books are not going to be everyone's taste. All the best, Jack!
I read some online discussions from years and years ago on my desperate attempt to get some infos about future books and he was so aggressively attacked in the comments that it was sickening. (remembered that when you mentioned misogyny)
As the excellent educator that you are Philip what would you say a friend of mine -- female with very strong feminist convictions -- could learn from a series like this. Apart from make sure to bring your own toilette paper. As I say asking for a friend but still very interested in your thoughts, Philip!
That’s a tough one, Angela, but I think I have an answer. There is a possible reading of Prince of Nothing that asserts that it IS feminist because it’s a scathing critique of patriarchy and the infinite brutality that patriarchy not only allows but encourages. But I must stress for your friend that there is no positive example of gender roles and relations in Prince of Nothing and little or perhaps zero hope. But there is value, I think, in a deeply negative critique.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Hm, so is it a feminist critique just by the fact that it shows patriarchy at it's worst or is this discussed in any other way like for example in the more philosophical parts or otherwise explored?
@@DoUnicornsRead To be honest, it’s not really discussed anywhere in the story. Not the way our lack of free will is explored. So, yes, it would be a stretch to call it a “critique” of patriarchy. It’s more like a very negative portrayal of patriarchy that leaves little hope for something better . . . I’m not doing a very good job of convincing your friend, am I?
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Don't worry about convincing my friend, Philip. She's hard to please to start with. But I'm sure I can demonstrate to her that you made a very good attempt to answer a tough question when I pass on your answer. Also, it's not your fault if the books are not very critical in that respect. My friend will just have to see what she wants to do with that.
The series involves men treating other men as badly as they treat women. By the end of the 7 book series the only redeemed characters are the women that suffered under brutal men. A hard-core feminist might groove on that.
Do you think Bakkers work would be any benefit in your college courses? Or would you try to stay away from teaching something so outright horrific and nihilistic in academia? The series especially the second half paints some very interesting topics for literary discussion
There is so much thought-provoking content in Prince of Nothing that I think it would teach very well and generate a ton of discussion. The only possible issue is the sexual violence -- I'm pretty sure it would be triggering for a number of people and so that would be a consideration.
Thank you for your warnings about sexual violence. Been there, done that, don't care to read about it, especially from someone who can write it vividly. I'm not one to say it shouldn't be present-- I think everything is a valid topic for exploration in fiction. However, it's just not something I want to read at this point.
My pleasure! I totally respect your position, which is why I gave the warning. Even if it’s the only useful thing I said in the video, I’m glad to have mentioned it. To be honest, it was tough for me to read this trilogy at times, and I don’t usually consider myself too sensitive. Like you, I think it’s a valid thing to portray in literature, but it’s not something I’d wish to read about much. All the best!
The plot moves slowly, I think, because there is more exposition and much more introspection than we typically find in modern fantasy. For a book its size, the plot doesn’t move too far.
It is very charcter driven with a lot of walking and talking. Warrior Prophet has a great deal more action as things get moving. I have seen people comment that PoN is really just a very long prologue to AE.
I’d say it’s worth a shot, mainly because Bakker is tremendously talented, unless the sexual violence is too much of a barrier. But, yeah, it doesn’t present a flattering portrayal of humanity!
I've read two books of the trilogy. Great writing, no doubt, but Bakker's undelying nihilism was too much to bear for me. The author himself comes across as an outright zero-sum Nietzschean. And what's with the hatred towards all of your characters, author? It was you who created them in the first place.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy The author's just pouring himself out, always a recipe for tough reading. Guess who's really hiding behind the main character)))
There is certainly a lot of nihilism in the series, but in no way is the author a zero-sum Nietzschean. If anything, he uses the Dunyain to deconstruct such a world view both morally and rationally. As for the hatred to the characters, this is not a feel good series. It's a series meant to challenge you. The characters are presented with such brutal honesty that would make Dostoevsky look like a hypocrite. This is very important for what Scott is trying to achieve with this series, which is to show what humanity refuses to acknowledge about its more problematic traits.
I've heard that the bleakness doesn't improve. I think I'll still give the rest of the series a try because of how well Bakker writes, but I'm not expecting to be uplifted by it. Cheers, Larry!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy What bothered me was Anasurimbor Kellus became one of my all time favorite characters. I thought I had another Malazan level series. The disappointment level was through the roof.
@@drawyrral Ah, yes. The biggest difference to me is that hope, empathy, compassion, and connection exist in Malazan. Not so much in Second Apocalypse.
