I am so happy you’ve read this. If there was one series I’d have you read it would be this one. Our conversation will be phenomenal. One thing to frame this series in your head is that Bakker had remarked that it’s very much a critique of men. We will discuss more in the conversation of course, so so excited.
Was very glad to the positive review as well as I was a little nervous. Am following along with Steve on the series and am looking forward to the chat. You get to be the one now keeping a poker face when asked about potential spoilers. Will see how the Dr. handles being on the other side of the discussion.
It's a very promising start, and Bakker is obviously an enormously talented writer. I can certainly see the critique of men there, and I'm intrigued to see where Bakker takes it. It's going to be awesome to chat with you, Johanna, and Raf about this one, Jimmy!
Hey Jimmy, in the end, did you ever reach out to Bakker for an interview? I hope the man is doing well and if love to hear what he's up to in the years since TAE. I'm jonesing big time, considering another re-read.
YES!!!! Been waiting patiently for this. 😉 I know the series is beyond bleak, but I would encourage any that are discouraged, to continue. Looking at the darkness inside ourselves is important. Not comfortable, but important.
Well said, Mark. The job of stories is not always to make us comfortable. It is indeed bleak, but Bakker is exploring things that should be explored and acknowledged. That’s what great writers do. All the best, my friend!
Ëarwa is one of the most fleshed out, living breathing Fantasy world I've read since Westeros and whatever planet Malazan is set on. But its at the very very top of the lists of worlds I would never want to visit.
It's one of my favorites, so good. On my re-read I noticed so much I missed the first time, so I'm glad we're taking our time with this series and reading a bit each week.
I'm currently 60% into the first book and I'm in awe of it. It hits all the right points for me. The conversation between Kellhus and Cnaiür about the darkness that comes before left a big impression on me. Having philosophy discussed in a fantasy book at such a deep level (at least for an amateur like me) is like a dream come true. The manipulative nature of Kellhus and the POV change also added an incredible tension to what was basically just a conversation. The quality of the writing also reminds me to slow down and just enjoy it - something that is very hard when I see how much people on booktube read!
So glad you finally got into this series and actually enjoyed it, this series is criminally underrated among fantasy fans. Hopefully Bakker will come out of his hiatus and join one of your discussions with AP, those videos are always a joy to watch :)
Philip, I just finished this book today and this review is fantastic! You perfectly described all the themes and shared exactly what the reading experience was like for me. This was a very uncomfortable read with the patriarchal world and brutality explored, especially towards women, but it was also a mesmerizing reading experience with the exploration of identity and Bakker's exquisite prose. I'm looking forward to our discussion!
I’m excited for our chat, Johanna! I’ll be keen to hear your perspective, and I’m sure it will have some nuances that have not occurred to me. See you on Saturday for “Why Read?”!
I had heard about this series when this book originally came out. It was originally pitched by the publisher and early reviewers as a book for fans of ASOIAF and it definitely sounded intriguing. However, I kept hearing how bleak it was and feared that R Scott Bakker was just a mere edge lord and so put reading it off for a long time. When I finally read it, it really blew me away. It was the next Dune like series I had been searching for since I was 12 and first read Herbert. I too was really uncomfortable with female representation in this book. It does get better by the end of the trilogy but maybe not as satisfactory of a level as some people would have liked; however, in The Aspect-Emperor Bakker really rectify's this and the female characters are some of the best and most dynamic protagonists in the series. Bakker's series is about a world heading towards a tragedy and the way people relate to each other is helping to facilitate it so it definitely has some bleak moments, but Bakker actually improves a lot as a writer over the course of the seven books and there is so much beauty in to Bakker as a craftsman and wordsmith, that I ended up loving my trip through hell.
Bakker is one hell of a writer. This book made me reconsider the parameters of what I would characterize as “good writing”. For instance, your observation on his use of exposition. How he was able to use exposition to flesh out a character so well is beyond me #bluebabies. The other two books are even better. I can’t wait for your thoughts on those. He goes into so much more depth on the themes, ideas and philosophy. I was stunned by it.
Exposition is definitely something that writers have always used to portray characters, but in a lot of fast-paced genre fiction, writers tend to avoid it these days since many readers lack the patience for it. Bakker shows how to do it well. Your words on the next two books motivate me even more to continue -- thank you!
The real world can be bleak and a lot of people are jaded, but there is levity and optimism to be found in the day to day that I appreciate to be found in books as well. Too many books to read, nice to at least know what probably won't work for me! Great review, Philip.
Thanks, Josh. I agree that the real world contains beauty and wonder, and I personally tend to prefer stories that feature those things along with the suffering and pain, not to mention the laughter. Cheers!
Kellhus is a good friend to have, he always knows the right thing to say. Achamian was initially a little hard to take seriously because "Akka" means old woman in Finnish. Still holding out hope that one day Bakker will emerge from his slumber in the wilderness and make his way back to civilized lands to bring us more of this series, it's a top tier fantasy series and there's just not enough material on this level out there. In the meantime there's still Neuropath and Disciple of the Dog that I haven't read. Bakker writing detective stories? Could be neat.
Disciple of the Dog is great, highly recommended. Between the leanness of the prose, the great first person perspective and the themes explored, it is my favorite Bakker novel.
Kellhus would be an awesome friend . . . except that I'd be constantly wondering if he's manipulating me. Of course, I probably wouldn't know, would I? Cheers, Kalle!
I read neuropath when I was 15, and loved it. No idea if I would enjoy it as much now at 30, but imagine my amazement when some of the most interesting ideas regarding pain/pleasure I somewhat remember from it kinda showed up in the darkness that comes before 🤓 (and the rest of the series) I would think neuropath would be easier to suggest to someone that likes true crime and is hesitant to start a bigger fantasy series. You might find it a bit simple going the other way 😅 Just ignore most knowledge you have about neuroscience, and let the horror entertain.
I'm committed to reading at least Prince of Nothing. If I'm not too depressed by then, I'll see about continuing. 😁In all seriousness, there is really brilliant writing here. Cheers, Jeroen!
Very glad you 'enjoyed' it. Bakker has an incredible talent for setting the mood for a scene that can suddenly shift in a paragraph. There is this feeling throughout that this will not end well, like waiting for the boat to sink but with out the Celine Dione soundtrack. He also uses a lot of descriptive terms that shouldnt fit but do. It is also ironic you talk about agency for the characters as this also is a major theme throughout the series. Erickson says he rings the bell with his recurring themes. Bakker often uses a sledgehammer.
That's very well put, Eric. A lot of the characters lack agency, making me think that Bakker is making a statement here about free will (or the lack thereof), but it was so hard to read the female characters internalizing their abuse. I am hoping for a little ray of sunshine in that respect, but I'm also willing to see where Bakker goes with all this because, yes, he's that talented. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Well for sunshine they do go through a desert..... But I did literally cheer at the end of Thousandfold Thought. I just can't tell you why.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Not only is there no free will, but no self either. This ties in to Bakker's fascination with the Churchlands (Paul and Patricia) and their eliminative materialism philosophy. I commented on Raf's channel that there's something strange going on up there in Canada since they're producing some extremely dark and nihilistic world views.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I truly wonder how long you'll last with this series. How long before it affects your sunny disposition? An author may be talented or skillful, but if the world he created ends up brutalizing you, beating your sensibilities into submission, is it ultimately worth reading?
If you had pitched me the character of Kellhus (master manipulator/pseudo-prophet)I would have assumed that the character would be cheesy and unbelieveable, but somehow in Bakker's hands I believe Kellhus as a character and am astounded and convinced alongside the other characters in the story when he goads them into the path he wishes them to take. Bakker is truly one of the most talented authors of fantasy
Kellhus is a character that hits on so many different emotional levels. I as a reader felt awe inspired at him at some moments. Awe for a fictional character is very hard to pull off for me. I can think of only one other character that has had that effect on me and that is a character from Malazan. I know Kellhus has enraged me, saddened me, and made me cry. The genious of Bakkers writing is something to behold.
Oh, boy! Yeah, from friends who have read the series, they said “Imagine “The Silmarillion”/Michael Moorcock’s “Corum” smashed to the Crusades, then pummeled by “Dune” and “Event Horizon”/“Hellraizer”!” Definitely looking forward to your spoiler discussion! Can recommend checking out “The History of Byzantium” Podcast’s episodes about the Crusades for those links Bakker make! When told of the Concept of the “No-God”, while obviously Cosmic Horror/Lovecraft inspired, it also reminded me a lot of Yeats’ “The Second Coming”: I watch recently the trailer for the new adaptation of “All Quiet on the Western Front”, which reminded me of how the Western Perception of the Crusades changed with WW1: From the romanticized view of “Ivanhoe” (noble knights fighting a righteous, if lost, cause) written in a time of Western Colonialism and when the Ottomans and the Berber Pirates was in recent memory, to a more tragic view of futility, loss of faith and unnecessary loss of life, similar to the prevalent view of WW1 postulated in “The Second Coming” (this view of the Crusades later added/changed with the Criticism of Orientalism/Decolonization and then those focusing on the more “positive effects” such as the Exchange and Spread of Ideas during and after the Crusades).
Thanks, MacScarfield! I’ll be interested to see what parallels can be drawn between Bakker’s Holy War and the historical Crusades. The view he’s set up of the Holy War is already cynical since most perspective characters are cynical or jaded. Proyas is one of the few named characters who’s a true believer, and even he is very political in his approach to the Holy War. Something tells me Bakker won’t be focusing much on any positive effects! 😁 Cheers!
So glad u r reading this I actually got into your channel from your malazan vids which I’m reading now and I’m reading malazan because people recommended it when I loved this second apocalypse series. Bakkar does such An amazing job with prose, themes and characterization I can’t wait to hear what u think as u continue on with the series !
Thank you, Daniel! I can definitely see where people who love Malazan would find a lot to love about Bakker’s writing. He’s tremendously talented, and I look forward to continuing Prince of Nothing!
About 17 years ago, or so, I was reading Del Rey's reprints of all of Robert E. Howard's Conan stories. I was playing a lot of miniature war games back then and one of the guys I met at the gaming house started chatting with me and because I am an aspiring writer and voracious reader, reading and writing came up. He recommended two book series to me, Erickson's _Malazan: Book of the Fallen_ and, of course, _The Prince of Nothing_ . I had told him I was a huge Cormac McCarthy fan and we both talked about _Blood Meridian_ and I mentioned the Conan work I was really loving as well. He said that I would find Conan in Cnaiur and a McCarthy fan in R. Scott Bakker. He wasn't wrong. And, indeed, in one of the later novels, _The Thousandfold Thought_ Bakker quotes McCarthy. I think that Bakker is one of the most underrated authors and it's disappointing that he has struggled to reach the prominence he deserves. One of the things I love the most about his work beyond his brilliant writing--his prose is high tier--is his incredible world building. The key component to this is that at the start of each chapter, he includes a quote from one of the important works of scripture or literature that's a part of his setting. Later on, I read Susana Clarke's _Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norell_ and all throughout that novel there were these brilliant footnotes. Both of these authors create this engrossing verisimilitude in their work, a grounding that functioned as doorways and keys to the greater corpus of their stories. Such a brilliant idea when building a functioning mythology for the reader to understand, putting them in the minds of the characters in the books themselves. I truly hope Bakker chooses to go back to the world of Earwa and completes the epic he set out to write. It's done on a certain level, but could go on for 3 or 4 more books quite easily. Happy reading! And for those of you who write, may it be full of passion and lead you to joy. (Almost done with _The Way of Edan_ ! Really loving it, sir.)
Thank you, Jason! I just finished The Judging Eye, and I fully agree with you about Bakker’s incredible prose. He’s so talented, and though the bleakness of his world is heavy, I can’t help admiring his storytelling and the unflinching manner in which he explores the human condition. I’m so glad you’re still enjoying The Way of Edan!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Oh, of course! Your writing is incredibly immersive, clear, and it glows with an inner wisdom. I love how much of the language you use invokes the setting leaning more heavily on the Germanic nature of English which reminds me of Tolkien's own work. There's a ton of intrigue and building tension. I really love Dayraven and Imharr and that makes me worried because usually tragedy follows whenever I get attached to people--and they feel like people to me, which is an incredible accomplishment on your part. And your magic system... you're giving me just enough to keep me hooked and continue to lure me in. It's simply stellar. Well, anyway, all the best, sir!
Wow, I just watched your video of what you wanted to read this year with this on there and I was really close to getting it but thought to myself- I'll wait for your review of it. Then went to sleep and woke up to this being uploaded! Definitely will be getting it now and adding it to my to read list.
Excellent review. I have been waiting for this a long time. I am glad you appreciated it. Your grasp on the themes is really firm and enlightening. It is my favorite series and author but I will be honest with you. This is the lightest book of the two series. Things only get bleaker. But in such a beautifully told way that it is really captivating. There comes a time that you realize that your mind wanders in Earwa all the time.
I appreciate that honesty! Though I wouldn’t mind more beauty and hope, I’m prepared to keep reading because I recognize the importance of taking on the tough themes. Sometimes we benefit from a mirror that shows us the worst parts of ourselves. Even Earwa has nothing on things that humans have done to each other in this world. Also, Bakker is just an awesome writer!
I really appreciate your thoughts on this. I had a similar appreciation for this book, but also struggled with it a good deal in the areas you addressed. There was so much good to take in from a craft perspective, and the story is incredibly intriguing, but it also left me feeling a bit tired because of how broken the book's world and everyone in it was, haha! Can't wait to hear your thoughts in greater detail in the spoiler chat!
Thanks, Jon. I deeply appreciate what Bakker is doing, and I’m impressed, but it’s not what I’d call enjoyable reading. The spoiler chat should be a learning experience for me.
Yeah every few months I go on a internet hunt looking for news. But sadly nothing. I don't even know if he is still writing, his website is basically blank
Yes yes yes! I'm so glad you finally reviewed this. This is my favorite book series of all time, I even have a tattoo from it. I'm curious to see your thoughts on the series as it develops. I'd love to see some discussion/analysis videos on it once you're done like you've done with Malazan.
A tattoo means you’re definitely serious about loving this series! I’m deeply impressed so far, but I confess I wouldn’t mind a little more beauty and hope. Regardless, Bakker has more than earned my respect already, and I’ll keep reading at least the first trilogy. I have a chat lined up to discuss The Darkness that Comes Before, and I’ll announce it soon!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yeah, this is definitely not the series for hope. I think there is beauty and small human moments sprinkled around in there but yeah, it's mostly just bleak.
You and AP should try to get Scott to talk with you. It would blow up both your channels! Perhaps Steven the Man Erikson could help you guys get in contact! And then perhaps convince him of starting part 3 😁
Gosh I'm so happy you finally got to this, but that also it didn't totally crash and burn with you. It's *so* dark that I feel like it's something pretty difficult to recommend, even to those who have generally enjoyed similar works. I really need to re-read this myself, I'm sure I didn't pick up on half of it at the time, but... gotta gear up to read it, it's not an easy one.
Very true, Zan! This is one read I’m very glad to have under my belt, but it’s also the sort of read that makes me check in with myself every once in a while. All the best!
I still have no idea if I am going to like this book. And your review basically confirms that. It sounds like Bakker is an immensely skilled writer, and we will see if he has written a book that explores his views, which allows me to enjoy it, while almost disagreeing with everything he thinks. Should be some time in 2023 for me.
Sounds compelling and worthy of reading, if only for the study of excellent writing. But I'm thinking I'll put it on a future TBR. I'm not sure I'm up to the challenge of that sort of bleakness at the moment. Trying to keep my spirits as high as possible at the moment, lol. Very effective review, though. Especially for remaining spoiler-free. Thanks, Philip!
This appeared to be a bit of a love/hate read for you. One day I will get around to reading it when I'm in the mood for something that heavy. Thanks for your review Philip!
I had this book on my shelf since 2009 when my friend gifted it to me. For some reason I haven't touched it in 13 years because i was kinda immature but i feel like now it's time to read it. Also I don't know why it isn't more famous. Haven't seen nobody rank it high in the booktubers community.
Thanks for the review. I am still thinking about if it is a good read or not for me. Right now I am on Dust of Dreams...so, maybe after I finish malazan I can go to this one, but not sure that is the best work to attend to after the main ten.
Even though I am not opposed to reading dark/bleak stories, there's just something that puts me off from this one. I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on it though, and I am glad that you had such an impactful and thought-provoking reading experience! I hope that the rest of the series will be a hit for you. Happy reading!
Thanks, Esmay! Bakker’s writing is brilliant, but I respect the choice to avoid it out of concern for how disturbing certain scenes and the overall tone might be. The Darkness That Comes Before is not a book to read if you’re looking to feel optimistic. All the best!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy And I could use some optimism in my life, so I guess it's a good call to skip this one for now. Maybe in another stage of my life, haha.
YES you are finally reading it!!! I'm so excited. I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on the entire series, if you get to it. Its way darker than the first book as you progress, but damn are there some beautiful amazing moments also. What would be even better is if you can convince AP to read it and both talk about it in a future video...............hint hint cough cough :) Also one question, how did you adapt to the First name Last name being reversed? That confused the heck out of me when I went into the series blind. It took some adjusting for me I keep editing this because I could talk for hours if not days about this series haha. Are you familiar with David Foster Wallace? He had some themes he talked about how if you are able to handle it, it is good to challenge yourself reading things that aren't comfortable, which makes you a better reader if not a better human. Writing/Art as Dunne puts it, should "Disturb the comfortable and comfort the disturbed". This happened a lot in this series for me. It really challenged me in ways I never have been challenged in literature.
Thanks, Jacob! I am committed to reading the first trilogy, Prince of Nothing. I'll see how I feel after finishing in terms of reading the rest of The Second Apocalypse. Right now, though, I'm deeply impressed. A.P. has actually read Prince of Nothing, but I don't think he's ready for a reread at the moment. The name thing did confuse me at first, but, like you, I adjusted. Yes, I am somewhat familiar with David Foster Wallace -- I used to teach one of his essays called "This Is Water" (actually, it was a speech originally), and he's very right about the role of literature in challenging people. All the best!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy that's amazing! Where were professors like you when I was in college and HS!! I watch This is Water commencement speach from DFW a couple times a year. Do you have any lessons that are stored online that we could watch? Any of your classes recorded?
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy if you are ever looking to do some non fantasy content, I'd tune in to watch a video series discussing Wallace's tennis essays. :)
Thank you, for this thoughtful review, Philip! I really value your descriptions of the darker parts of this series. Still, I might wait till you finish the trilogy and hear your final verdict before I make a desicion if I want to pick this up or not. To know a bit more about how the female characters develop I think would be especially important to me for making that desicion. On the bright side -- my favourite art piece is back. Thanks for that as well.😊
We definitely need great art in the world, so I’m happy to oblige with the thangka! What happens with the female characters will likely have a large impact on how I’ll assess this series. Their stories were the hardest to read, and most sad was the internalization of patriarchal abuse. Cheers, Angela!
Great review! I was looking forward to getting your thoughts on Bakker's writing. He's become my favorite author, though I'll admit that when I first started to read him, I had some of the same issues you discuss here. But overall, amazing writing and a very worthwhile journey, in my humble opinion!
For me, it’s definitely been worthwhile so far, Mike. Bakker’s talent is obvious, and I trust that he’s doing something more than putting suffering in front of us to sell books. I’m genuinely invested and intrigued to see where he brings the trilogy. Cheers!
@@MichaelRSchultheiss As part of the mission of the channel, I try to review one self-published or indie fantasy book every month. Right now, I’ve got a book for every month until April of 2023.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy that's awesome, and as an indie author I really appreciate you doing that! Could I send you a book for possible consideration at some point? No worries if it's not a good time, just thought I'd ask!
It helps to know that Bakker is basically telling the story of The First Crusade in a fantasy world. One thing reading his work does to me is to do more research on that period of history, which is interesting in its own right. The more immersed I get in the history of that time period, and come back to read Bakker's work, the richer the experience becomes.
I'm very fan of the first trilogy, I read it 3 times. And sadly, since I think I'm the only human being in Spain that enjoyed it so much... no other books from Bakker have been published, so I´ll never know how the story progressed... 😢
I really liked (perhaps that's the wrong word) the four main characters, in particular, Kellhus. Such a great character. In each of the books in the trilogy there were 2 or 3 great scenes, and I mean great scenes, the rest of the books I found very dull. I did not like Bakker's writing style or the description of the battles. I did get really strong Dune vibes, so that's a plus. I really can't see myself reading the second series, which is a shame since I liked (there's that word again) the main characters. Despite my negativity, I'm glad you're finding more to like Philip.
Hello, Dan! You could read Forge of Darkness first, but I strongly recommend that you start with Gardens of the Moon. Reading Malazan first can prepare you for Kharkanas even though the latter takes place hundreds of thousands of years earlier.
So happy to see this video show up this morning! Can't wait to watch you talk about these books more. Did your academic background involve studying the First Crusade? If so, I'd be interested in hearing you talk more about the parallels between history and Bakker's series. I don't have much knowledge in that area. I do know that Harold Lamb's Iron Men & Saints was a big influence on the series. My first time reading this book, I was drawn in by the opening sentence, "One cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten" and completely hooked by the end of the prologue. If art is a mirror held up to nature, I think it's important for some of that art to reflect the more brutal aspects of who we are. It can be difficult to engage with, but it is a part of who we are.
Thanks for the excellent comments, Jason! I’ve read a few histories of the Crusades, especially the first. So far, I think the inspiration is more general than specific. Beautifully said about the role of art and literature in reflecting our world, including the suffering and tough stuff.
I'm reading it right now and so far is really good! Wizard's chapters are the best to me! I love Abercrombie's books( i read First law trilogy) so I was prepared and I was hoping for another dark and bleak fantasy read! i'm avid reader of psychological thrillers so it's refreshing to read something completly different! I don't care much for epic battles and description of warafare but I look more for character-driven, human psychology based and dark fantasy books!
This series has been on my radar since I finished Broken Empire. Do you think theres overlap thematically, tonally or aesthetically between those 2 series? Khellus sounds like a really interesting protagonist to me and I love me some subversion of a savior stuff as you know. My only fear is the sexual violence because I've heard its quite graphic and I just dont know if i can read about that stuff.
I’d say it’s slightly more graphic than Broken Empire in that it feels more “real”. It’s hard to compare such things, but in Broken Empire there were at least some characters, including female ones like Katherine, with agency. If I had to guess, I’d venture to say that Bakker probably doesn’t believe free will exists (and he might be right, but I prefer to delude myself). He’s immensely talented, so I’m going to keep reading for now. Cheers, Ves!
Great review, Philip. This sounds both so incredibly intriguing but also what I might call a "drag" where it's just hard to march through the constant suffering. I will definitely at least read this first one. Do you think there is enough in here for me to enjoy?
Enjoy might be the wrong word. Imagine a stroy written by a legionaurre, or Crusader, about the horrible conditions during a long campaign without being romanticized. It was a bleak existence now ratchet it up a little. It might also depend if you like horror books as there are a lot of those elements as well.
@@TheLibraryofAllenxandria You can also basically follow along with a book on the First Crusade. But you will likely know early in if it is fornyou or not as I can agree with both the praise and why some found it unpalatable.
It would not be pure joy for you, Allen, but at least you’d get to laugh at Xerius, whom you’ll hate. 😁 I would actually love to hear your thoughts on this book, so I do hope you’ll try it.
Enjoyed watching this review and I'm looking forward for more of your thoughts, even though reading about rape is just something I don't see myself ever doing. I do love exploration of deeper themes, but I don't think it's necessary to go into graphic details about such horrible traumatic experiences. :/
That’s a position I completely respect. Bakker makes some authorial choices I personally would not make, but he’s certainly talented and, I think, is trying to explore some tough themes in a truthful way. It’s definitely not going to be a series for everyone, but I’ll at least finish the first trilogy. All the best!
I'll be finishing the last chapter tomorrow. Bleak is a great word to sum it up. Still, I'm 'enjoying' the book, his characters and setting. I also agree that it is a very well written book. Bakker not getting voyeuristic with the more mature subject matter is something I respect in his depictions. Still, given its bleakness, it took me a while to finish it.
@@osoisko1933 I have a feeling that Bakker actively avoids tropes unless he’s messing with them. A bit like his fellow Canadian Mr. Erikson in that regard.
Great review. So nice to hear you got so much out of the book. That being said, I did not like this book - Bleak yes and also very tedious. The writing did not work for me. I'll ask a slightly unfair question- now that you've read both - as a first-time reader, The Darkness That Comes Before or Gardens of the Moon? 😊
I'm so torn on these books. I quit after the first trilogy but is considering a re-read. The magic, the world building, the religions, etc, are so interesting. The battle scenes are THE best I've read in any fantasy book (including malazan). My main problem are the female characters, their complete lack of agency can partially be explained by the patriarchal world. But come on, even in an extreme patriarchy women probably still have dreams and goals that are not centered around obsessing over men. It just annoys me to no end.
It’s a serious issue for me too, John. I’m reserving judgment until I finish the trilogy, but if it’s this bad throughout, I’ll evaluate whether I want to continue. Cheers!
Yeah, Bakker's prose is truely awesome and i don't mind a dark and bleak world sometimes. Although for me personally, a bit more humor would have been an improvement (which is a matter of taste, i guess) That being said, i don't like the way he handles women in his books. At first I also thought that it was deliberate on his part, but after 4,5 books i started to suspect otherwise. It caused me to quit. But, maybe someone might explain to me some day that i was completely wrong about that, who knows?
For me so far, Prince of Nothing is like Malazan in the exploration of theme, but unlike Malazan in that there’s far less humor and the exploration of compassion is nearly gone. That’s a simplistic comparison, but those two things along with the portrayal of women - not just their abuse, but their internalization of abuse - make this a much bleaker read. Bakker’s talented enough to keep my interest, but I get why you’d say no more.
Ah, that would be a shame, but I'm prepared to finish at least Prince of Nothing (the first trilogy), and from there I'll see if I want to continue in the series. Cheers, David!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Well you should try listening to Empire of the Vampire bu Jay Kristoff, Its masterclass narration for a masterclass book🐰
Welcome to the Slog of Slogs. You think this book is bleak you haven’t seen nothing yet 🤣 Also a lot of people who have problems with the series is about his portrayal on female characters; by reading the first book this is understandable but by finishing the series I believe your outlook will change; finally in a series where EVERYONE is used and manipulated I know it’s easy to believe the female characters get it bad but male characters in the series get it no better 🤣 this world is brutal no matter who you are.
This is the least bleakest and it increases as you get further into the series. So if you ever think man this is dark I don’t think I can continue just think in a another books time you will be looking back on these events like a fond childhood memory 😂 There’s no silver lining or light at the end of the tunnel. Enjoy
I really didn't like the female characters here , especially because the internal thoughts of the female characters themselves is really negative and very self damning. Its not just the male characters and patriarchal society, but the females themselves! which really put me off. I couldn't relate or really like any of the characters. I guess this series isn't for me. I found it too philosophical and on the nose. But still am looking forward to you discussion with Jimmy and the others maybe I could ve convinced to continue with this trilogy. Thank you for the great review.
It is extremely sad how the female characters have internalized the abuse of the patriarchy around them in this book. I’m really hoping they will claim more agency later in the series. It can only go up from here, I think. Cheers, Avi!
I did not enjoy this series at all. I can appreciate some of the themes, but overall I disliked the main character and the Mary Sue nature of him and how everything lined up.
