There's a quote I heard in response to this common complaint in MTG, but I think it applies to FGs just fine: "Honest" usually means "I don't lose to it."
Fighting games are the most extreme form of a Rock Paper Scissors you'll ever play. Of course, characters might pull out Gun every now and then, and some characters might have Kiddie Scissors that only work in certain situations and some characters might only have Rocks of Various Sizes and maybe a Paper and... Wait, what were we talking about?
I think the big misconception, is that they think you can react to things in fighting games, which to be fair you can in certain situations, but the reality is so many things happen so fast, you just have to guess preemptively 90% of the time. Its blitz RPS all day everyday.
@scott mizer That's not really true. If you play fighting games enough, especially a specific one, things become muscle memory and on top of that conditioning your opponent is also something to factor in too. Watch high level mvc3 play, punk's karin anything where you will see some wild and crazy stuff consistently. They dont create the situations consistently and do the things they do cause of 90 percent good guesses. They condition their opponent and know what is gonna happen and work based off every given situation. I'm not good at articulating these things into words like sajam but their are numerous examples to be made here to say your claim is false
Seeing "Kiddie Scissors" as an option for some reason made me instantly think of that _SF4_ T. Hawk vs. Blanka match-up that was *atrocious* for T. Hawk given he had nothing to punish Blanka Balls except jabs. That was...not a fun match-up.
People who complain that fighting games boil down to "guessing" are, at best, only getting it half right. Yeah, sometimes you get knocked down and forced into a "50-50" situation, but even then, your odds of choosing the right response should be better than that, because you should be observing your opponent's play style and patterns. That's what wins matches: not perfect execution, but adaptability.
Another important thing to consider in a 50-50 scenario is the risk reward. Your opponent might set up some oki where they have an unreactable overhead/low mixup, so a true 50-50. But which leads to more damage? Can they combo from the low but not the overhead? Does the overhead hard knockdown and reset the oki situation? That's when you get into situations where people talk about taking the throw, because you might have the option to take or tech the throw, but if you get shimmied and whiff your throw tech you might eat a huge punish that does more than double what a throw would do. So even before you've gotten a read on your opponent, 50-50s are almost never true 50-50s, you have information that can inform which decision you make.
I think the issue is also partially due to the stigma around the word "guess", which carries a feeling of lack of control which, if left unchecked, can spiral into a sense of helplessness. In real life combat sports, what would be called guessing in fighting games is generally referred to as a fighter's instincts and intuition. Boxers train to let their brains go on autopilot to take in spacing, patterns, and habits, in order to act in the best way to give them the greatest chance of success in a match.
I think people give a negative connotation to the term "guessing", as in: "it's completely random and out of your control, so if you guess right, it's pure luck, not skill." Of course, that's not true. These are educated guesses, done based on available information and experience. Better players consistently make better guesses and that's a testament to their skill and dedication.
While that's true, a lot of newer players are not going to be as adaptable as veteran players, and they're not going to be able to easily transition from "this person is doing X" to "do I have something that beats X" to "beating X", and when they do it's going to be a struggle to remove the middle part which is where a lot of the guessing comes from. I've played and beaten other people using just one button before because they only know how to use one tactic for every round in two sets, because they found a button that worked before.
@@bipolarprobe even if it IS a true 50/50, that's still better odds you'll pick the right thing than in neutral anyways as there's lots less realistic options.
Sajam, you just don't get it. Guessing in fighting games is when you predict your opponent will do something and are wrong (because they're random, scrubby, and not playing like they're supposed to), but honest and fundamental reads are when you predict your opponent will do something and are right
Good players can condition or force their opponents to be more predictable or to act in a particular way. Consistently punishing just one of their “random” habits will make them stop doing it and if they don’t you win. People play random when they don’t respect your ability to punish. If you struggle to punish random things weave in and out of a range that will encourage them to do one of the only moves that will reach you and punish it.
Just make the right decisions when you play fighting games, it’s all you have to do to win. Seriously though, the layers and layers of mind games that begin to build and build as a set goes on is such a fun and intrinsic part of fighting games, and it’s even more satisfying when you begin to make correct reads. Good video Sajam
Yes. This is probably why most people find fighting games hard to play. Being able to make good reads and decisions takes a lot of time. One needs to experiment with the characters and what they do to gain knowledge in the matchups, which options beats other options, etc.
I've noticed some players don't get that Guilty Gear is a very offensive game. It's not because you aren't supposed to run offense in other games, it's because as you can see form the I-no, your offense in Guilty Gear also covers defensive options so much that a correct defensive read often has an immediate answer that just instantly puts you in control. You're ENCOURAGED to disrespect the opponent's offense in this game in ways that are honestly very "real".
one example of this I really like is challenging nagoriyuki with sweep as giovanna. it goes under his f.S and 2H, forcing him to start poking with something else or losing half his health off 1 whiff
@@MallowJam I've been working on using faultless defense to make things whiff and punishing lately them myself. My whiff punish game is easily my weakest part of my neutral.
Saying "I don't wanna guess, just rely on my honest fundamentals" is a contradiction. Neutral fundamentals are 70% guessing and 30% knowing the options to use
I guess these people just want to play a pure math game of frame data and only play opponents that consistently set themselves up to get punished. Sounds like a boring game to me.
This kind of analysis and breakdown is what made me a Sajam fan to begin with. Setup the problem, test for a solution, then try from the other side. Quick, clean, and easy to understand. Shoutouts to Moste for the superb editing too!
I have 78 hours on Strive and I don't have Midnight Carnival unlocked (which is a crime as an I-No main) and Sajam is just here flexing it while teaching Sol players to beat my main. My greatest hero has become my worst nemesis.
Anyone who says "I hate guessing" is really just saying "I hate defending against mixups" and I have news for these people: Literally everyone hates defending against mix as much as they enjoy to do mix. I'm an I-No player I have triple overheads, I love mixing people, still hate being put in the corner by Millia tho. I don't think anyone enjoys it. That's fine.
I don't hate guessing when i get mixed, but I hate guessing when I'm mixing my opponent. As Millia I still haven't found a safe disc setup against Leo's DP and it drives me nuts lol
I think this is a very important video on how to make decisions for players. I think a lot of people press buttons because they can, instead of thinking of options and solutions.
I respect how you break down fighting game basics easily, and show me how shit I am at them. I'll never pick up another fighting game, my brain just can't process info that fast in game.
This is easily one of the hardest skills for me to learn. I'm so slow to adapt. At least I'm catching some reversals now, but this is probably going to haunt me for a while.
Fighting games have guessing, it's normal. If everything was reactable and nobody never took risks, we wouldn't be able to open anybody up. Hit the lab and stop complaining
The concepts here are 100% spot on, and well said. On the specific topic of I-No's stroke, the H version is plus on block, but has a long start up. It's not unreasonable to be on the lookout for it, and react with the appropriate normal, 2D in this case. The S version is punishable, unless spaced well, and would be harder. Either one you'll wind up blocking some amount of the time, but if you think she's a little too close, you can even more safely grab her out of it, if you're not comfortable using a button. Of course, I'm not saying stroke can be 100% shut down, but rather you can make an I-No want to use it much less frequently without it being too much of a gamble.
Sajam I hope you see this comment, but I desperately need videos like this explaining what beats what so badly, I had no idea Sol's Run could go under I-No's attack, so if I bait with fake gunflame run then either attack or command grab? I also thought if they do the air attack(sorry trying to learn names bad with them) I could hit them with the DP? Although combo options may be limited compared to getting a hit.
Not only is this a good example of what works vs I-No, it's a good example of general applications used in every fighting game. It's definitely about rotating your options, which then becomes about reading your opponent so you can use those options effectively.
I think you lent some credence the opposite point with this. There is RPS in neutral but passive players have the can still choose lower commitment options or even just different timings or spacings to minimize risk. In this way aggressive players have to call out more passive players lame play in order to get in. The great thing about this interaction is that it is very granular. You could bulldog your way in, or you can bum rush. You could up back all the way to fullscreen or pace right outside of footsies range. You could do a hard callout at round start or You could just hold [1] and only move when your opponent commits to an option. Of course some characters options will be overall better than others, but like you showed in this video, there are ways to force them to choose other options. Plus frames into strike/throw/pressure reset is a much trickier RPS to balance, and I think the changes to IB and gatlings hurt both sides in Strive. Once you're in a position where you feel safest option is to block, there aren't many ways to stop the attacker from using the same strings over and over. But at the same time you only have a handful of viable options for pressure. It's not nearly as deep or layered as the neutral game. Pressure in round two or three usually feels the same as pressure in round one, the main difference is often whether the defender commits to abare or a reversal to deal with resets. Hence, why people complain about having to guess.
I used to think fighting games were random until I started getting into the hobby myself. It is all just a series of options and counters to those options, with different risks and rewards which means it is less like rock paper scissors and more like some kind of real time card game, like Teppen.
I'm of the "I hate guessing" camp but when I say that, I really mean "I hate being put into looping situations in which my character has no option but to choose how to block and hope it works out."
It's kind of sad to see Sajam having to talk about this over and over again because people see Sol and go, "Wow he's so braindead." I'm glad you used this video to teach some cool fundamentals of neutral interactions.
if matches didnt end in 14 seconds people might see the nuance of the interaction. I wish there was more health or less damage. Everyone is a rushdown character in this game because unga -> bunga is a true combo for the entire roster.
as someone new to GG but not new to fighting games, the thing that i'm struggling with is developing a general gameplan. like if i'm playing SFV ryu, I can say "I'm going to stand out of my opponent's range, buffer cr mp into donkey kick to catch any whiffed buttons, and anti-air with dp." that simple plan will get you through like 90% of any match. but like...in GG the amount of stuff your opponent can do at any time is so high, it seems really hard developing any plan, and every match seems to devolve into throwing as much at the opponent as possible. I'm really struggling to understand what my _gameplan_ should be. (fwiw, i'm floor 10 gio)
The amount of reward Ino gets for guessing right in this neutral is so small compared to what Sol get. It's depressing. if you guess Vortex to beat HCL, you literally get 70% of my life.
For me neutral is also about how well you can manage your mental stack (remembering to anti-air,check dashes,etc depending on the spacing) and how well you can react to situations with the appropriate answer. Calling it all educated guessing just seems like oversimplifying the concept, there's one 100% a difference between getting 50-50'd in the corner and the neutral game. I don't think that's all sajam is saying but a lot of people seem to be getting the idea he's trying to prove fighting games are only about guessing and i don't agree with that.
As a reformed "I just want to use my fundamentals" guy, here's my 2 cents. One, FGs aren't about honesty. You're trying to confuse, bamboozle and mess with your opponent until their life bar is depleted. There's nothing honest about that. In fact, being honest and "honorable" is what loses you matches. You have to be on point and in the zone 99% of the time to win like that. Even the greatest players can't achieve that. Two, everything has a counter. Some counters are more obvious than others but they're all there. You just got to figure them out like a puzzle. Three, the rotation of options that Sajam just depicted is what makes neutral fun. If you're not enjoying that aspect in tandem with points One and Two then FGs are likely not for you.
"i hate guessing" to me doesnt refer to assuming what your Enemy might do next and optionselecting, but stuff like blocking Leo's Backturned Overhead. IF he doesnt cancel the stance after (wich is the STUPIDEST THING TO EVER FCKING EXIST), you have exactly 2 options. Mash 3k to get him out of backturned and take your turn (against wich he can spamm parry to beat your 5k) OR you dont do anything to beat him spamming parry and wiffpunish. It's either A or B and its 100% a guess. THATS the guessing i hate. Same in Tekken for Kings Chainthrows or Marduk Tackle.
Observation and risk:reward understanding are the secret sauce that turns the game from "rock-paper-scissors' into "this is my casino bitch, house always wins"
Sonic sol the same guy that told me my combos was trash during the beta I didn’t know much about the game at that time so I’m glad you beat his ass let’s go sajam lol
Ye sorry, you want to guess as little as possible. One of the things i dislike/ am having to adjust to about strive is how guess based the neutral is at low/no experience levels (which may or may not always be a thing) its very frustrating to constantly be forced to guess in all or nothing neutral situations. I-no knocks you down once or corners you and it could be all over. Its ridiculously hard/next to impossible to fuzzy her oki/blockstring options. The other thing i find really annoying about the game is how easy it is to upback out of non consolidated pressure.
@@rizqiefajar agreed, but that doesnt change the neutral, just gives you a way out if you guess wrong in neutral… but you still have to deal with the super duper guess based neutral after the burst. What you said is true though especially about FD. Like i said, its just something i have to get used to. Normally when i play against opponents that are hyper rotation or guessed based neutrals, I can out fundamental them. That doesnt seem possible though in Strive. It feels like that old sf4 noob ryu masher versus the rufus fundamental player… but everyone is the ryu noob and they can actually win and actually be very hard to beat because they just roll the dice on everything. 🤷🏿♂️
@@dimex3362 to me, the worst part is rps after you even won neutral and already successfully played around all of this nonsense lol. as a millia player, my neutral is basically running around and instantblocking with faultless defense. i have to do it until i see a gap in all of these random gorilla attacks, who cover 3 out of 5 options i have and then go in. otherwise, if they are not just swinging, i have to make sure, they most likely won't start it, or will do it wrong, before i even come close. but this is kinda fine to me... the only real problem i have, is when a leo just randomly mashes dp after my disc setup, while he beats all things i could do against a freaking sol or ky dp... some characters force rps way too much and feel like they are never in a disadvantageous state.
wtf? at 2:35 you just magically changed shirts. Is that part of the neutral decision-making, to make us distracted by that and you scoop up wins in the meantime?
I feel like I always have a really hard time dissecting VODs and figuring out why players make the decisions that they do, and I feel like this helps a lot for understanding better. Super easy to understand
People who complain about having to guess in neutral are literally at square one of fighting games snakes and ladders. The trick isn't not having to guess, the trick is narrowing those guesses DOWN. For example, when I get an air block from 6K on Axl, I can do a 50/50 with Rensen and Winter Mantis on their landing. If they do anything but jump, Winter Mantis crushes them. If they do jump, rensen catches the jump startup and I get free Rensen(8) oki or put them back full-screen with the cherry explosion. Now, that's as easy at it can get. 50/50 guess when taken in isolation, right? However, some facts skew the guesswork a bit. If the enemy IADs winter mantis, I have like 30 frames of counterhit recovery. Against a Sol with 50 meter... that's DEATH. However, if the Rensen is blocked, I still maintain pressure by alternating Cherry at its fastest speed, or the delayed explosion. Here's what goes through my mind when deciding which to use: How many times have I used either option. Did those times work? What's he risk of whiffing either one. Is it better just to IAD jS instead to capitalise on some hesitation? Do I have meter to make Mantis safe? And of course, has my opponent realised any of this. I narrow this down by figuring out what kind of player the opponent is. If he's easily frustrated and I've just landed a Winter Mantis beforehand, he's probably going to want to jump in and punish. If he's methodical and takes his time in neutral, its harder to tell and would probably end up as a true 50/50. Probably better just to IAD jS. If he's playing a character with a fullscreen invincible super like chipp, is he the kind of player to throw that out and risk losing the round? Its these kind of mindgames that really make fighting games addicting in my opinion. If you're not playing them... what game ARE you playing? For context, this is how people get perfects: they can't predict the future, they simply keep narrowing you down until they find out which 'type of player' box you fit in.
Sajam man you are a very pro player, and you show points that are very just but you dont see why ppl say sol players are unga bunga, ofcc you can play smart but the problem here is that sol is much less punishable if hes played dumb and very high rewarding if he goes in frame advantage which again goes to the point that he is most of the time in advantage as hr is a jack of all trades but master of everything. You cant have a character that has all.
It's like..... People forgot how much damn damage stuff does in this game. As a result, you get less interactions per round, which will look like "unga bunga" to a novice.
Who are these people that think they know everything about how fighting games are played? It's a lot more fun to play these games than to go on Twitter or Reddit and complain about guessing or critiquing other people.
