Your explanations make it way more easier to understand Illusion and spellcasting in general in Pathfinder. This is a lot more useful than my Nenio who just chucks a bunch of controlled fireballs around. Definitely wanna give this a try! I'm using her in my Lich playthrough as well.
Nenio is so much more powerful going with her illusion theme than trying to push her into something else. It takes a little while for her to really come online, but once she gets haste and her first CC spells, she basically trivializes most encounters in a way no one else can
@@brandonholt6717 It seems like it! I'm at the end of my Lich playthrough and I'm really tempted to run her again in my next one because she looks so good when she's built correctly.
@@diasflac42 Phantasmal Killer, Phantasmal Web, Phantasmal Putrefaction, Shadow Evocation and Weird are all standout spells. Weird is so difficult to resist it can potentially wipe out a whole room of demons even in Act 6 of the game. One cast of Weird and everything that isn't immune just dies.
Yeah, this is not a good guide. Persistent adds on average about +4 to the DC for a 2 level higher spell slot. I almost always get favorite metamagic (mythic feat) persistent spell so that it's only a 1 level higher spell slot. Then I throw it on the vast majority of my combat spells. That's a much more efficient usage of spell slots and spell levels than just heighten spell.
If this was a purely Illusion build I would absolutely do that. I am also mixing in some Evocation and consequently there are no spell slots available for me to raise a spell with Persistent. I prefer to raise the DC instead through Feats, Mythic Feats, and Items to overpower enemy defenses.
I found a lot of items provide bonuses to mind-affecting or will DC, enchantment and illusion go together well because of that and there are enough blasters. Expanded arsenal mythic is awesome for that as well. On buffs or necromancy/abjuration: make scrolls! It even saves on pricey materials I think. Thank for the spreadsheet!
I'm new to pathfinder and I love your build videos dude, cause you actually explain why you go for specific skills and even gear. Keep up the great work.
The pits are must haves for high Spell resistance and/or low reflex save mobs. Only hits large or smaller mobs, but when it works, it REALLY works. He is playing on normal difficulty so doing AOE nukes is fine for his game. A higher level difficulty means that you have to lock down their offense a lot quicker or your party starts to evaporate. In other words, this build won't work very well for anything but a low difficulty.
Usually in Act 1 I use Ember and/or Camellia to spam Sleep as crowd control and use Nenio more for damage until she starts getting good Illusion spells.
@@SlanderedGaming yeah Embers debuffing is so good. Combined with the protective aura that gives everyone disadvantage when attacking the target with anything makes takes really really hard to kill. And it doesn't lock you out like the normal hexes. So you can repeatedly put it on. Plus cackle extends to make it manageable on multiple teamates.
Who in your party gets you access to a f***ing velociraptor? Hahaha, I'm still in Act 4 of my first playthrough and I don't think I've seen one velociraptor in the whole game
As an illusionist there is zero reason to waste feats or mythic feats on Evocation. The Shadow Evocation spells allow you to cast any evocation spell as an illusion spell, and you get make the choice of which one on casting. This makes Shadow Evocation far more flexible.
Yeah, he underestimates Shadow Evocation *hard*. The only real spell that you'd like to have a high DC is the Enchantment Spell that gives people -10 to will saves, but you usually dont need it.
You get Shadow Evocation, Greater at Spell Level 8 which is also where Scintillating Pattern is. There's no way you are letting go of SP slots for that. At level 9 you get Weird which again is way better. So realistically you only have Shadow Evocation which gives you a handful of lower level Evocation spells that damage your party members. I don't see the appeal. My breakdown is this build is less flexible but significantly more effective.
@@SlanderedGaming I mean, I haven't had too much issue with damaging allies particularly as an illusionist. I value the flexibility and higher DC over spamming chain lightning, especially since it frees up feats. Then again I regularly ensure my party has resistance 10 (at least) to energy types (I have Cam built out with the duration extensions). Honestly, though, Nenio doesn't need to do damage. She already has the instant death buttons, doing damage isn't nessisary when you lock down all enemies instead and let your archers and frontline worry about damage. Nuke spells are mathematically *not* great, including chain lightning unless you feed feats into it. I'd rather prep more Phantasmal Putrification and Web spells in those slots.
@@SlanderedGaming normal shadow evocation is level 5. Far to many enemies are immune to Mind-Affecting spells to put all those slots into Phantasmal Web, so put about half of them into Shadow Evocation. I usually use them to cast Dragon's Breath, but for more distant targets fireball works too.
Shadow Evocation & Shadow Conjuration were the must have spells for an illusionist in D&D and Pathfinder TT. They gave the illusionist the power to use any spell form those schools with only a single spell slot. E.g. a Shadow Conjuration gave you ALL of the Summon spells for the levels it gave access to, as well as ALL of the other spell from Conjuration (e.g. the Pit spells for CC). All for a single spell, and a single spell slot. The is bread & butter for an illusionist as far as flexibility. Same goes for evocation. Furthermore, they both use your Illusion spell DCs (since you're going to Spell Focus that). One other note on Nenio (or any scroll savant/ user), for her opposition schools, scribe scrolls since they'll hit at full caster level & Int modifier.
haste also works pretty well with sorcerous reflex. Have your caster throw it out as a swift action at the start of every fight without interrupting their crowd control or blasting
@@SlanderedGaming yeah. Ever since I found out just how awesome Phantasmal Killer is I always have her with me. And yes, her humor is fantastic as well.
It's absolutely a requirement for me. I like women who are driven and very passionate about being successful. My wife can be absolutely vicious when she wants to be and I deeply appreciate it.
I think ur sleeping on shadow conjuration, It's literally a whole bunch of spells in one slot. With how high we get nenio's Illusion?! Feels like an obvious pick for me
It's sub par. It's better to plan to just use those spells straight up and/or create scrolls of them. Then use the higher level slots with persistent spell metamagic that has mythic feat: favorite metamagic applied to it. Now for prepared spells, you are using one slot higher and getting an average of +4 DC. MUCH BETTER!
Like Thengine stated the Shadow spells are not all that great. They can definitely be fun to use though so if you are enjoying them by all means have at it.
Zoinks! People *hate* Improved Initiative on casters? What game are they playing? Casters *have* to win initiative in Pathfinder to control the field. Turn-based, Real-Time, doesn't matter. You want casters to go first. Whether that's a Phantasmal Web or Stinking Cloud to lock down half the field, a Misfortune Hex to stuff the boss, or simply haste.
I'm surprised you had Nenio stay in Wizard after level 10. Scroll Savant doesn't give you anything from 11-20, so it's a good opportunity to prestige class out into anything that will continue her spell progression (Loremaster is both nice and thematically apt).
Loremaster is definitely the way to go with Nenio after she gets scroll mastery if you want to keep to her theme. She will lose nothing and gain 3 more feats over what she'd get staying a scroll savant, a huge amount of bonuses to all her skill checks, and yet another skill point. There is a bug, however, that prevents loremasters from getting their caster level on the 1st level of the class. I'm sure that will be fixed eventually, though, and you can "fix" it with the toy box mod by just adding a caster level to her.
I like Nenio, she is usefull and a decent comedy relief, but her quest... If only those "dominos" would be easier to see in inventory ( that shine effect makes it even worse ).
I like nenio a lot. I wish she wasn't stuck as a scroll savant though. I find the use of scrolls to be so tedious in the game, searching for which one I need in am inventory without a search function... Equipping to belt. Also you get so many spell slots due to the mythic levels that it feels like you lose out on any advantage that the scroll savant has, casting spells without using a spell slot. It really feels like a waste for her.
Over time Nenio really really makes scrolls very useful. I think a lot of people - me included - have a habit of just letting them clutter our inventories except on rare occasions. But her Scroll Savant abilities means she's extremely versatile as long as you make use of the scrolls, both the ones you find and any scrolls you do bother to scribe. There are tons of spells you might not want your casters to memorize all the time but are vital in specific instances. Plus she can just keep pouring out magic non-stop if you build your scroll inventory correctly. Her abilities overcome the main drawback of scrolls in the game. Plus you're absolutely right: she's so lulz. I mean unfathomably lulz.
@@luantib lol you're not wrong. But over time if you use them it becomes easier to recognize where the scrolls you're looking for are, and thus it gets faster/easier to deal with. But you're totally right.
@@Porphyrogenitus1 they should make an bag item that occupy one belt slot so I can dump all my scroll there and let Nenio go apeshit...Or at least let scrolls stack so I can put all my 47 cause minor wounds from the maze in one single slot
Loremaster is also a good option for her both mechanically and thematically. If you are fine with exploits, you can always go the Eldritch Knight path. The Kitsune/master shapershifter cheese gives you 12 free ability points which gives her a good stat spread a dex based EK. I guess you can also just take it to make her an oddly buff wizard; there is no class that wouldn't want a +4 to dex and con.
People in the comments who hate on taking Improved Initiative on casters - I don't always take this with my casters... *BUT* don't underestimate it. There's a reason why in PF Tabletop many, many people who do theorycraft and builds like the Divination School of Wizard. It's not the spells (lol) - it's because "Initiative is King" for casters (I don't personally do this, but the point is - acting early is vital, especially for crowd control casters). So I endorse choosing Improved Initiative. It's a strong choice for casters. Maybe not as strong as in tabletop because of the ease of sleezing surprise rounds/going first out of the AI. But it's still a good choice.
Tabletop magic is a LOT different than the weak ass shit magic that this game is sporting. Notice how the vast majority of all the mobs in this game are immune to poison? Drop a stinking cloud first with a high DC in a tabletop game, and things get a LOT easier... Sometimes even trivial. Tabletop magic is rocket tag. Whomever hits first usually wins.
Lich can do it 3 times per day. But only for the main character. It penetrates all SR and immunities. So cast dominate monster with a greater persistent rod and have fun with your new best friend.
I've had entire encounters be ended just with Nenio casting *Wierd* lol. Not all the time - but even the ones (which is admittedly more often than not) where it doesn't just kill everything, it clears out so much that even the boss, stripped of its support team, well the rest of the encounter becomes nothing more than a mopping up operation. That too: not every battle. But when it works, it's superb. I personally have a dislike of save-or-die or even save-and-nothing (including save-and-negligible impact) type spells but when you build a character correctly I have to concede the absolute effectiveness of spells like these. SO in the CRPG I use them too.
@@thengine7 I don't disagree it's been nerfed compared to tabletop but PnP 3.XE always had a hard time with the caster-martial disparity and high-level characters in any case. It's one reason this CRPG is using a totally re-worked version of Mythic than they published for the tabletop. It just would lack challenge at the levels a lot of people look forward to in CRPGs. I like that Weird is this effective, mind. Once you've put that kind of resources into a character to build towards this, it should pay off big.
Personally if Nenio wasn't so useful I'd kick her out of the party. Her humor makes me die inside with every line. My build for Nenio is an illusionist and Evocationist. She does four things: Casts illusions, a magic missle dispenser (40 damage from a magic missle attack is nothing to sneeze at). Casts haste. And does knowledge checks. But I would rather her not having dialouge (as for most of the characters in WOTR - maybe except for Regil and maybe Lan)
Before everybody run to respec Nenio I would like to highlight that she also got supported -6/-4 on saving throws from MC's gear/ Angel stuff XD - as it should be by the way - just do not expect to break saves that easy if you do not build the whole team for it
Shouldn't it be -6 to SR and -3 to saves at level 10 mythics? I thought that the angel path HURTS the enemies saves, and not BOOSTS the companions saves. So, are you sure about your claim?
@@thengine7 sorry for vague wording, I meant that Nenio got supported by MC on a way that MC's auras from gear / Angel stuff reduced the enemy saving throw results by that amounts - effectively making it more easily for Nenio to do her thing ( If you stop the Vid on combat log you will see what I mean)
Interesting stuff here, im new and would ask how exactly i could boost my overall ability to help my Party with scrolls and potions crafted by a top tier "crafting character" like the one you describe here. The part about 31:52 and the lower DC lvl tells me there might be more ways to alter, use or improve my crafted items for the party is there maybe a comprehensive guide for crafting? What does the option "Click to downgrade CL" do and how it affects the usage of items for my different party members? Are Charges always 1 or can this be increased? Could I craft a high lvl healing or buff potion for my tanks without them needing some special requirements? I saw that there exist Alchemy based classes fighting with offensive throwable bombs/potions, are those just skills or actual craftable potions?
CL means Caster Level and in many ways determines the effectiveness of a spell. A Higher CL will oftentimes mean you need a higher Use Magic Device skill ranking in order to use the scroll. Charges are always one unless you get something from a Mythic Path that changes it. To cast high level healing scrolls either you or someone else on the team will need to have a high Use Magic Device skill that will allow it to be used. Potions have no skill related to their use so you can give them to anybody. There is also a Mythic feat available to all team members that would let them use a position in battle as a swift action. Bombs are limited use abilities and cannot be crafted. I have provided links to more videos on both subjects. Hope this information helps. Alchemist build/breakdown: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-IaRnUb9c_yM.html Crafting Overview: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-k4ygkJ8lqt0.html
My pleasure glad you enjoyed the video. Everybody can drink potions while only some characters can use scrolls. So I wouldn't say that they are better it's just for buffs potions are more applicable. ON the flip side you cannot deal damage with potions while Nenio can light up a battlefield with scrolls.
Interesting build. It kinda resembles my own, though only one half of it. I do use her for chain lightning and haste, and i do use fantasmal killer but i also use her has a buffer. I rely on displacement and greater invisibility to buff my front liners. Invisible people are harder to hit, especially when something already has a hit bonus as high as your AC. Also, shadow evocation! BTW, how often do you rest on average? I.E. how many encounters before you do?
Usually I only reset when characters get exhausted on the Global map. If it's a long dungeon maybe one rest before the boss fight. Mind you though I play on Normal.
@@SlanderedGaming yeah, makes sense. I try to avoid rests as much as possible as well. I don't know how much actual difference there is between normal and core, but on core i find that i can do about 4 or 5 hard fights before i'm pushed to rest. After that, i'm usually out of some crucial resource, either special abilities or heals, or possibly restorations or all of the above for particularly tough dungeons. This is why i don't take more then 4-5 haste slots. I only cast them during such encounters and having more of them will mean i just never get to use them. But it is the most universal buff i can imagine :D
Because high int character get a butt tonne of skill points I find giving her points in stealth and perception is best perception as it's a dump stat that every character should have regardless of Wis level for da loot.
@@SlanderedGaming If you are going for a low armour party I find having everyone having high stealth you can begin an attack before combat starts and set up your team ideal formation for the encounter (like sneak attackers close to the mob I am going to attempt to put to sleep to kill some enemies early or out of the way of the AOE of a grease spell to slow down melee attackers and putting them in spots which encourages them to walk on said Grease. ;) Sleep I find I also a fun early game pickup for the very same reason why I like grease but better as you can kill some enemies early on much easier with sleep than you can grease. :) Then later ambushing with an aoe when all your enemies happen to be bundled up is always fun be it damage or status effect. :)
I've been trying to make a solid build for nenio in the times I use her (I am playing a wizard in my first run and haven't really seen her to be useful to me so far), so this really helps trying to figure out what to do with her. On the subject of building, I have an I deanof a build I'm calling the darklord build going with tiefling aldori defender fighter/ swordlord with multiclass of magus probably going down the demon mythic path. The build was inspired by Revan's story and personality from KOTOR, where my character is taking this dark and evil power in order to strengthen the world. Still not sure if I want to go totally evil or on the cusp of it, and any recommendations to make this build better when I play it would be cool.
That combo sounds good but I can't make any suggestions yet because I haven't looked seriously through Magus. Once I have I'll definitely drop builds for it though.
Of course, the whole point of any Prepared Arcane Scrollcaster is that you can literally buy (basically any of) the missing spells in your list. - Really no need to be stuck with the very limited amount one gets from the list. If one wants that, always go Spontaneous Caster. Shadow Conjuration (and its later iterations) clearly outshines e.g. Phantasmal Killer ( up to Shades at spell lvl 9 all the way over Weird) for higher difficulties; different AoE CC options, attacking Reflex, at a decent DC (Grease, Web, Pit, et al) is far more valuable than basically a 5% chance to actually kill something. Indeed, Illusion mostly shines through its flexibility, giving also Evocation and Conjuration for the price of just one school. Also: One spell slot for dozens of different available effects (either Evo or Conjure) is extremely efficient. - Heighten (mostly useful for Spontaneous Casters, for effective spell level usage; or for Hideous Laughter with Best Jokes) on an Illusionist is, how the system works, completely redundant; Persistent is key. Greater Shadows Mythic obviously your friend. Scintillating Pattern likely affects at most one trash mob, and probably absolutely nothing relevant : Everybody is higher HD ( at lvl 15, start of Act IV: between 20 and 40) than your Caster Level, without some insane equipment stacking. And, of course, Mind Fog is the best friend for anything Will save related; if not on Nenio, then on another caster who ideally specs into Enchantments.
For this run I played as Angel who handled all the buffs so I didn't need to expand her list. Also the video is already 40 minutes if I had crammed more content into it people might not have bothered to watch.
I was disappointed to see her spell list so sparse! As a wizard she can learn spells from scrolls, and then turn around and make them into scrolls. Even ones she can't normally slot without penalty (I love stone-skin scrolls, especially as they don't have the diamond dust cost).
It's clear that he doesn't actually play with her in his group. If he did, he would realize there are better ways to build her and spells to use. There would be a ton more spells in the spellbook. It's kinda sad that he put out a guide, when he doesn't even use Nenio.
For this run I keep her spell list much more sparse because my Angel was the main buffer. She didn't need to learn any more spells than what she has. I am not a min-maxer so I am sure there are areas for improvement but it's the way I prefer to play.
I know this is off topic and I apologize to those who don't want to hear me brag a little: But I just managed to get the Truly Important Deed achievement. My archaeologist has her priorities in order: she saved the booze cart and all the courtesans at Daeran's party. Yeah, I did it at normal level--there's no way I'd be able to do it at the higher difficulty levels, I understand and realize that, but it felt good to be able to save all those working girls and boys AND all the booze! :)
Nenio? Wifey? Oh hell no. She's funny and useful, sure, but she is really interesting and socially deficient, and her personality is that she would take up with anyone, even a demon, to pursue her scientific dream.
So a woman isn't wife material because she is socially awkward or deficient? I beg to differ. Being a driven person with a passionate goal doesn't make you a bad partner either. :)
I use pit spells in turn based mode .. but it takes some of the fun out, as they are broken in the mode. The checks to fall in or get out still runs real-time. So if they keep getting out and falling in, they will eventually die in a single round, if I just sit back and do nothing :) Want to play around a bit more with the Illusion spells for Nenio, and thinking I need a respec of her now :D
I build her with Enchantment and Illusion. Kitsunes get a +1 DC bonus to enchantment school spells, so her DC with enchantment spells will end up better than illusion spell DC's by 1 (after all spell focus feats for both schools). Also I think its a good idea to get her metamagic persistant spells since this makes enemies have to make their saves twice instead of just once in order to pass the DC roll against spells, although I'd probably get this around the time you can cast level 7 spells since it adds +2 to spell level so you have to use higher spell slots. As far as mythic levels, I think its pretty similar to what I had, except for ascendant element since I didn't have too many evocation spells with her so, I instead used expanded arsenal with conjuration (for all the pit spells), and obviously mythic spell focus for both Enchantment and Illusion. But yeah, Phatasmal Putrification is definitely an amazing spell that's saved my butt so maaany times, except when the enemy is casting it (which is like all the time lol) so its like a race to see who gets it off first. Improved Initiative is definitely a good feat for her.
I grabbed brew potions and brew mythic potions for the achievement (nenio making level 9 scroll and level 6 potion), but having nenio my all purpose brewer was actually kind of nice.
Looks cool will def try it out. Couple of things to look into maybe would be since you have a couple of extra feats look into metamagic selective spell as it could possibly make that lvl 8 spell not hit your allies. Also the mythic feat master shapeshifter works when you have her in human form so she gets the +4 to all physical ability scores so just some extra stats to help her along the way.
Heroism is a much better choice of a buff then greater magic weapon. Greater magic weapon does not stack with innate magic weapon enhancement bonuses and by the time you get access to it all of your party members who rely on such attacks should have magic weapons already Not that it really matters much because it’s pretty easy for nenio to learn everything she wants, But when choosing preparation’s I would pick heroism every time
The enhancement bonus for GMW does stack with the innate magic bonus on weapons, I’d check that out again. Heroism is still better, though. Early on, at least. But you will have plenty of opportunity to slot both and there are more things that provide morale bonuses that might conflict with heroism
@@brandonholt6717 Well what do you know. Enhancement bonuses are definitely NOT supposed to stack. Looks like we have another Magic Vestment situation. Coming from the tabletop, this is a surprise. A little frustrating though. This game is complicated enough without weird differences between the two implementations like this, especially ones that *by the game's own rules* should not work. I had assumed they were the same and overlooked this spell. Thanks, man!
Yup like Brandon said they definitely stack. I didn't give her heroism because it requires too many slots to buff your party properly. I thought I mentioned that in the video but I might have forgotten to do so.
@@SlanderedGaming imo heroism is a must if available, such a great buff, tho i only cast it on everyone in the really big fights. If you have a bard, tho, good hope makes it obsolete
@@rwulf I always have it but I let Ember handle it instead of Nenio. I want Nenio's slots free for Haste. Realistically she could instead create scrolls/potions for it but I am stuck on having it slotted.
My wife has spent years on the couch watching me romance characters in KOTOR, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Witcher 3. She knows how her husband gets down. LOL
