I think part of the problem is that so many atheists have been so horribly damaged by religion that it's very hard for us to trust in the motives of people who seem to have doubled down on it. Having said that, you're right that the only way forward for any of us is more talking, not less. This is my first exposure to this channel and I'm interested in learning more about this person's journey from mono- to polytheism.
I’m glad to see atheists and polytheists coming together, we have a lot more in common than differences. I have to say that I’m shocked(albeit pleasantly so) that Suris isn’t telling us we’re wrong, childish, irrational, crazy, brainwashed, or any other derogatory adjective I’ve been called by atheists being a polytheist, because that’s my normal experience with atheists when they find out I’m a pagan. Ocean’s and Suris partnership thing gives me hope for both our communities.
To be fair, I don’t think it’s entirely unfair for atheists to call pagans “wrong”, any more than I think it is unfair for pagans to call atheists “wrong”…
Can confirm that Ocean is awesome. Also, can confirm that he's a bit hesitant around atheists. Some athiests can be just as dogmatic as Christians, and that gives us a really bad name. 🎶Why can't we be friends? Why can't we be friends?🎶
Since this topic is about exposure, I want to highlight a different kind of exposure that's not related to ideas and discussion. Atheists also need to be exposed to the experience of polytheist cultures in full force - which is not so accessible in the West. You have to experience the practice of polytheistic cultures and not just the beliefs. Visit India or other Asian countries and take part in the pilgrimages that draw literally millions of people. You will see a completely different type of human being.
I agree the exposure to any idea is useful, but it makes it no more true than it is, the thing about atheism is you don’t need exposure to every god to know non of them exists.
@@alexphilips6335 it's not about making believe, but to understand that there are many religions that are not interested in supremacy and imposition of dogma to non-practitioners and non-believers
@@alexphilips6335 Which is your belief, as is the idea that there is a spirit in the nearby sea (and another in the mountains, and another in the winds) my belief. Unlike some I do not hold this to be the truth, merely my understanding and interpretation of reality (and faith in a spiritual world that is tied to this material world).
@@alexphilips6335That's the entire point. You don't HAVE to believe in these gods, because not all Religions push the narrative that they are the one true religion. That's pretty much just Christianity and Islam. Hinduism is a polytheistic religion and has many temples standing all over the world, and yet it flies mostly under the radar of major religions because the point of the religion is not to conquer and to convert the whole world eventually, the point of Hinduism is to discover truths of yourself, and find your sense of peace as one small dot in the vast expanse that is the universe. Buddhism is another example of this, with some Buddhists not even believing in gods, but rather the infinite cycle of death and rebirth that shows your immortal soul all the viewpoints possible, and once you have done that, you reach nirvana. To take part in something, is not to accept that as reality, but rather to understand the mindset of those people, and as a human species, learn to value and appreciate those concepts. I'm a pagan now, and there are still concepts of Christianity that are still a part of my being. Such as the idea of working for a living, and the idea that men and women are equal in value, though not equal in totality. It's the differences between men and women that make them equally valuable. So too, it's the differences of humanity as a species that makes us what we are. Humanity is designed around a communal system where one person's weaknesses are covered by another's strength, and vice versa. The point of exposure isn't to prove truth, the point is to get the conversation going so that we can ultimately appreciate and respect each other as individuals.
I definitely got a lot of satanic panic in my youth... thankfully it's been mellowed out long before coming to atheism like I am now. I'm glad to be following both Ocean and Suris because they're honestly good folk with good content- I'd have a drink with both of you if I had the chance ;)
I lived through the Satanic Panic as a teenager in the 70s-80s. Fortunately in the Upper Midwest it never reached the extremes it did in some other regions.
🙋🙋, no on the third. I find myself here because I started exploring atheist youtube despite the fact that I am pagan. I have had an internal atheist flicking shit at the concepts I encounter as I explore my path when they require faith or seem like woo. I am so happy that the atheist RU-vidrs are of a much more tollerant variety these days, because I have learned a lot and surprisingly found even more reasons to never ever go back to the Christianity I was raised in. Not that I was in danger of that, it's just that all my reasons got validated 100x over and a few more were presented that I didn't think of on my own. It may be a surprise to many atheists that none of this truly chipped away at my paganism. The annoying atheist voice casting doubt on the woo in the pagan stuff I was studying isn't loud and annoying anymore and no longer sounds like my ex. I understand the concepts for myself now and I can now use my practice to better my life in a more rational manner.
We do a get a lot of bad exposure due to lunatics. I try my best to give exposure through my books that I type and posting things on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Sometimes on here and on Tumblr.
I used to have a co-worker who thought that because I was pagan, I obviously worshiped the vending machine because it had food... Never mind that he was at the thing at least 5 times a day...
Funnily enough, Suris, I ran into Ocean through Paulogia, and then from there your channel and the debate you two did (yes, I know, technically it was a three-perspective debate, but it didn't turn out that way!) with Mike Winger. So I think that exposure works well both ways, as by interacting with each other in terms of respect and friendship, we let people see each other at our best. So here's hoping that this trend continues and we are actually becoming a post-supremacist culture, where passionate views can be held without the need to 'win' over opposing viewpoints. Also, I absolutely sympathize with your journey. I started out Southern Baptist, and my first encounter with atheists was through D&D (which I suppose was the start of my fall from grace, playing Satan's Game (tm).) Like you, I don't think I would've learned their perspective or cared to had we not had that unifying game to bring us together. Makes me think that we need to find more 'common ground' options. Regardless, it's been a pleasure to meet you and Ocean both, and I look forward to seeing more from both of you in the future!
This video is so good. I'm a christian with very orthodox beliefs. I am constantly being straw-manned by everyone, ironically, mostly by other christians here in the south. Exposure, awareness that the person you're talking to has been misrepresented by wider culture, and knowing that everyone experiences the same straw-manning you experience. These things are vital to understand.
I am still super skeptical about polytheism, but to your point my only exposure to polytheism in my life has been mythology. And that's why I'm here. To learn more about it.
@brandon roberts I think believing that God like Zeus is as real as the Christians think they are God is is kind of silly. That being said, if you want to live your life with these rituals and take meaning from the stories while acknowledging that they are fiction, that's totally okay and valid.
Congratulations, you've just jumped down a very pleasant rabbit-hole. I'm one of the Atheist Humanists, and personally find no particular difference between believing in one God, or One God that is somehow Three Gods, or Eleventy Billion Gods, except that people like Ocean (and I don't know exactly what he does believe, frankly - I'm new here too) aren't running around dehumanizing other people and wanting to have the government kill them. Remain skeptical, but open to communication and respectful, and you'll fit right in.
Believing that Zeus is real to the same degree that Christians believe in their god is less silly because Zeus is a coherent concept of a deity. The Christian one is not coherent. So if I have to call one silly, its the Christian.
Polytheism is mythology as is any theism, which doesn't mean it has no worth whatsoever. Fictional morality tales, with or without fantasy elements and given their proper historical context can teach us about past societies and the human condition in general. They are still nothing BUT mythology.
I've been watching Ocean Keltoi's videos recently a bit concerned in case I'm actually an atheist, not a polytheist. However, from that run down at the top of the video, I do sound more like a polytheist than the other two! I also apparently fit three of the types of theism in Ocean's other video about ten (I think) types of theism.
Hey Ocean, I love the content of your channel. I was wondering if you could make a video or a quick comment on how you personally approach evangelical atheists. The type that attack our beliefs and how you personally debate with them.
You have no empathy for those you do not know. As your familiarity with a person or idea grows the more empathy you develop. Respect takes understanding, and understanding takes time. I don't necessarily think any god belief is rational but I'd like to know more about why you both think it is. Enjoyable video.
I, too, am an atheist, have fallen in love with Ocean's channel. I've been watching 5-6 videos a day as I catch up, and while I don't find his arguments to be convincing (in that they do not convince me, not that they are bad or "wrong") i have VERY MUCH enjoyed learning the philosophy behind it. Most atheists are (rightly) focused on Christianity and Islam, but that means that they are also no use for getting into the nitty gritty of other groups. I've personally studied a lot of Buddhism (that was my in-between point) so I have a decent understanding of the dharmic faiths through that lens, but they are just as different from paganism as they are from Christianity. So much to learn and understand, and this inner thirst for spirituality within people is fascinating even if I don't accept its truth. As long as they are cool with me sitting there and respectfully watching, I will keep drinking it in.
I come frome one of the two Evangelical pockets in my country. Everything deviating from Christianity was excluded from social interactions mostly. Needless to say the friend group got rather colourful pretty soon. (Basically atheists, pagans, othodox christians and muslims)
I'm living in Europe and we don't really have the whole "christian crusaders" here in Scandinavia. The thing we have the most is muslim bashing ALL THE TIME. I don't know if I'd this it's the devil's thing is a complete southern thing?
They're not omnipotent, all loving, but also judgemental and resentful entities. They're more like personified intelligent minds of nature that we can interact with through prayer and ritual.
A bunch of segregated gods is more coherent? Well I’ve not had interactions with either kind of God. Until then enjoy your life here probably isn’t any deity.
When they said that they specified that they were talking about a god with omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, which in any combination is paradoxical and incoherent.
I mean, realistically speaking compared to the god of Abraham's supposed omnipotence... Yeah. I don't think there's any deities, but on a relative level, it's definitely less self contradicting.
I am an atheist and think, that polytheism is irrational. Because it has not met it's burden of proof, I would argue, that it is not rational to believe it.
