Prophetic Racism - From Doctrine to Disavowed Theories | Mormonism Live 142 

Most excellent episode. Since I was a child I did not believe the discrimination of the Black or Native American doctrine . The fact they taught this in Sunday school is shocking, to children and young adults. It's abuse and indoctrination at its finest. Gasll lighting max. I also find it interesting with everything the leaders know about Brigham Young that they quote or repeat his doctrine. But this episode has shown to me how deep the lies really go the leaders are speaking. The confusion the lack of unity, the lack of prophecy and lack of knowledge of the church history, is astounding. You would think that the leaders of the church would know everything there is to know about the church, from beginning till now. Maybe they are the lazy Learners like brother Ballard said, " he does not know". No he did not study it enough to have an educated opinion...

RFM hit the nail on the head when he said what the brethren are lacking is INTEGRITY. I think they have lost the abiity to tell right from wrong. Instead, they quote talking points and play word games.

I enjoyed the show tonight. I’ve been watching for a few weeks and love the integrity you bring while discussing sensitive subjects. Further, I respect the manner in which you cover all documents regarding a matter and you don’t selectively chose the documents used to support your truth claims. The only suggestion I have, and I realize that may be missing something previously discussed,regards your question and an answer segment. I suggest that you limit discussing subjects related to the night’s presentation and cut off the caller when they obviously are ignoring your request to keep the question related to the presentation. I find it annoying to be intellectually invested in the presentation and the caller goes off into another matter. If you want to honor these discussions, then you might consider an occasional episode with open subject questions. Announce this episode in advance so the listeners can prepare their questions for the show. Keep up your great work! I plan to continue watching past episodes while waiting for new shows.

Yes please bring it on Maven. Love ❤️ it.

My interpretation of Oaks: when he said "I studied the reasons being give, and could not feel confirmation of the truth of any of them". I call BS: I don't believe for one second that Oaks was actually engaged in this topic at all: he was President of BYU, one of the whitest universities in the nation and well-insulated from all of this civil race strife that had hit american campuses since the early 60's. And then his feigning of "great joy" when the ban was lifted--come on Oaks. Race issues weren't even in the top 100 issues in Mormonism at the time. Yes, the church was dragged, kicking and screaming into the 20th century on this issue for very practical reasons: 1. threat of legal action by the federal government 2. the difficulty of distinguishing Brazilian saints who were largely mixed race 3. Kimball finally perceived that the ban was a pure invention of previous leaders--his "negative" revelation (the only one in history apparently) broke the ban, not by an actual revelation but by a kindly man evidently unable to get a positive revelation still had the courage to push it through ("God: if this is not right, please let us know, otherwise we are making this change"). What Oaks demonstrates here is an unending line of leaders who have made fealty (loyalty) to the brethren THE HIGHEST VALUE in the Church--above everything including loyalty to God and Jesus Christ. This is unfortunately where the leadership has gone, AND STILL IS. This is the only reason that I can see why absurd positions are retained dogmatically for decades longer than they should have. And held together for the flimsiest reasoning available at the time.

Gotcha Bill. Michele bring maturity to table

Polygamy in the US has never been legal no matter what the age if consent, which is why people were sent to Mexico and Canada. Mormon Polygamy is the most damaging thing done to my soul. Its existance caused a domino of bad mojo in my life.

Am replaying Am enjoying this is 2 much. Speaking for God is tempting the fates.

What a tangled web we weave........

wow wow what a great episode. I dont think if Michelle Stone hears this she will sleep tonight. I doubt she can sleep very well lately…. Not to put her down because she is a good woman, but I bet her conscience is bothering her not being able to honestly disable the critics like you guys.

@James_Raphael re: Europe: "The highlighted age is that from which a young person can lawfully engage in a non-commercial sexual act with an older person, regardless of their age difference, provided the older one is **not in a position of power, a relative, or is committing another form of exploitation** (such as abuse of power or dependence)" (Wikipedia, Age of Consent in Europe).

Leave it to RFM to find the gold nuggets instead of the chicken nuggies.

Let's ask Oaks about lgbt therapy at BYU

This MO is also used in inverted form for LGBTQ discrimination. Teleological metaphysics of dubious certainty about the non-mortal realm are posited as justification for discrimination in the mortal realm. And they don't even own it. They do what George Richards (34:00) did: **presumably** It is implied justification. "It is super unfair, which is why there must presumably be a *really* good reason for it, but we are pathetic prophets and aren't able to have a vision to check up on that reason. You just have to trust us either way."

Every GTE should be signed by 1st Precy & Q12. They either must affirm the words as accurate doctrine or state these essays do not reflect the teachings of the church.

The general membership of the Church was not sufficiently righteous in the pre-existence to be told about the billions of dollars in Ensign Peak Advisors. They will be cursed with drinking red Kool-Aid and not given the free indulgences of the Second Anointing.

Probably something of a harbinger for the Kimball maneuver of 1978, it's interesting to note that, until 1955, Fijian men were not allowed to hold the priesthood basically because they looked more like Africans than like Polynesians. (And Polynesians were of course "Lamanites" according to the church.) Precision inspiration right there. "Hey, they kinda look African, so...no priesthood for them." Despite the priesthood ban, the church grew quite well in Fiji and then found itself in a bind because none of the local men could hold positions of leadership due to not being eligible to hold the priesthood. In 1955, David O. McKay came up with the McKay maneuver. He simply decreed that Fijian men COULD hold the priesthood because they were Melanesian in their origins (i.e. not African). This seemed to solidify the notion that the incarnations of the fence sitters were all concentrated in Africa. Fijians were apparently also fence sitters, but not the worst kind. They were trying to get to the right side during the "War in Heaven" (TM), but got their shorts caught on the fence or something. By the time 1978 rolled around, the church was in a bind in Brazil, one of its fastest growing franchises in terms of membership growth and converts, because many, if not most, Brazilians had some African ancestry and nearly all were of mixed racial backgrounds. Kimball couldn't use the McKay maneuver (decree that they were not of African origin), so he felt some impressions in his mind (earning him the nickname "Renoir W. Kimball" (just kidding)) and found out from his impressions that God just wanted to call the whole thing off...just wanted everyone to have the priesthood (except women) and forget about the particulars and dumb things like logic. Just move on and be happy. And now the top church leader guys didn't have to feel weird about giving the priesthood to Brazilian men, while knowing full well that the Brazilian men had more than just a few drops of African blood. Incidentally, in June 1978, many visitors to the Mormon Pioneer Memorial Monument mentioned hearing the sound of something spinning at very high speeds a few feet underground, apparently at a depth of about 6 feet or so. They couldn't pinpoint exactly where the spinning sound was coming from, but it seemed to be coming from the direction of a particular grave site there. The spinning sound started on June 9th and didn't stop until about a month later.

Isn't 0% integrity & 100% loyalty (to TSCC) the definition of Church Broke"?

51:00 minutes. So Dallin Oaks was in apostasy prior to June 8th, 1978.

The Joseph Smith quotes from the 1836 Messenger & Advocate which Bill Reel reads here are valuable. These current Joseph Smith polygamy deniers such as Michelle Stone and Rob Fotheringham subscribe to the conspiracy theory that Brigham Young came up with all of the negative/offensive doctrines such as polygamy, the priesthood ban, the Adam-God doctrine, and blood atonement. These quotes show that Joseph Smith believed in the "curse of Cain" theory, so the deniers are falsely pinning the priesthood ban on Brigham. Of course, we already know from Joseph's words in The Book of Moses and The Book of Abraham that he was fully on board with the curse of Cain thing. The priesthood ban sprang from the specific verbiage in the 1842 Book of Abraham, not from anything Brigham came up with years later. The most important thing about the whole curse of Cain/priesthood ban which was taught and practiced until 1978 is that it completely undermines the church's assertion that it is continually guided by living prophets. The church's recently published essay on "Race and the Priesthood" states: "Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form." This statement effectively concedes that all of the church leaders who repeated dogma about the curse of Cain up until the 1978 rescission were not in communication with any Deity. If they were, then God should have informed Joseph Smith when he was writing The Book of Moses, The Book of Abraham, and this article in the Messenger & Advocate that he was totally wrong about Cain, Ham, Egyptus, and all such related nonsense. And of course, the church's essay also effectively means that that verbiage in The Book of Moses and The Book of Abraham is also the product of false beliefs about Negroes which were prevalent in Joseph Smith's day.

Does anyone know how to send an email to Bill Reel's podcast account? I have been wanting to ask a question through his business, but I can't recall where to find the info. Thank you.

Conviction$

Thanks Oaks. That clears it up God is bipolar. Got it.

Another thought: all this assumes a literal Genesis. There has to have been a flesh and blood Noah, Noah's wife, Ham, Ham's wife, and Ham's flesh and blood children whose genetic descendants eventually ended up as black Africans. Without that literal, flesh and blood genetic genealogy, the whole theory falls apart.

Where African Berbers denied the LDS Priesthood?

January 6th. I've heard that date mentioned before. Hmmm

In this time, man magic known as priesthood is not a real power no matter your skin color....

Well in 2023 just Google gospel topics essays and there you r. New light. New news

These guys r so chri$t like. Who would not run to worship a golden calf?

31:16 as to the handicapped and the messaging, I have a handicapped sister born in the mid eightys when this was the messaging. It's not so much my mom heard it and felt bad, it's that it was the common knowledge at the ward level and spoken of, or developed on, in who knows what ways. So the general view of having a handicapped child at the time was that you and yours were impure or less than, but no one would say or explain directly. I was born in 90 and didn't hear anything until the notion of the handicapped being more valiant took off. It must have been Hinckley who addressed it I imagine.

I wonder at what point it was no longer a sin for a man/boy to see his father naked. In the early 20th century, swim classes in school were done naked. We can see many pics of WWII soldiers lounging with each other naked. Seems likely in the 1800s and early 1900s males probably swam naked with their fathers if women were not present. Also… this is the first time I’ve contemplated why it would be that Ham is cursed for covering his father’s nakedness, but the lineages of Lot’s daughters were not cursed. The daughters got Lot drunk and then had sex with him so they could have babies. Maybe that was OK as long as Lot still had some clothes on?

2:02:22 LMAO

Genesis 41:45,51-52 [45]And Pharaoh called Joseph’s name Zaphnath-Paaneah. And he gave him as a wife Asenath, the daughter of Poti-Pherah priest of On. So Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt. [51]Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: “For God has made me forget all my toil and all my father’s house.” [52]And the name of the second he called Ephraim: “For God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.”

1hr49min. The then -14 yr old Priscilla Beaulieu had no problem chasing down Elvis to bed him. Now she's crying very foul things. Post-mortem MeToo.

PROPHET$$$ SEER$$ REVELATORS$%????

Holy Racism Batman!

If joseph marry a Egyptian woman kids would have the curse?

Ouch Bill have not gone that deep on marriage laws. Òkay Alice back down the rabbit hole Oh wait Mr Rabbit

The racist religious ideas were a product of racism within society in general. It would be interesting to compare racist religious sentiment within Mormonism to racism among other Christian denominations. I suspect they would be similar. It doesn’t condone their racist actions, but helps to explain them.

In other words Oaks has to admit that past leaders were WRONG, but without saying they were WRONG. That's an impossible needle to thread, but Oaks does the best attempt he can to do it. Oaks is probably the best leader of this generation for invention of rationales. By saying he couldn't get confirmation, he is distancing himself from previous leaders and what they clearly taught as "doctrine from God", but without overtly rejecting those leaders.

Square pegs fit in 6000 year old round earth holes oh wait! Was the earth still flat then?...

$$$$$ or created discomfort of the congregation tithe payers. That's all. Justification greed style. LOL

Just a note please stop using the words “the handicapped people”. That term is now out of use and found offensive. The correct word/term is “disabled”. I have children that fall under this term. Thank you. I find your videos very educational.

How did Joseph Smith predict the Civil War 28 years before it started?

There is NOTHING the Mormon church can say to cover-up or explain away the 193 years of the racists attitude and doctrine of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the Mormon church. God would never curse an entire race of people, especially generations of innocent people born after the alleged cursed took place. The Mormon church teaches that all blacks are cursed by God. But the God of the Bible says in: MARK 16:15 "And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preached the gospel to every creature..." See, to everyone, no racists attitude or doctrine in the Bible.

54:45 If the Lord is giving a reason then it isn't a theory.

Wait guys. Cain slew his brother Abel. God asked Cain where is your brother? Cain gave no good answer. God knew the deal. Cain you r in time out. Gave him mark of protection. You r still My child. Go read Genesis