Real Mormon Women React: To Camille Johnson [Radio Free Mormon 344] 

I told my daughters, “Never become financially dependent. It creates an unequal power dynamic in the relationship that isn’t healthy for you or your spouse.” My brilliant, well educated Mormon mother gave up a career that she loved because she was told it would be selfish for any healthy young woman to put off child birth. So my brother was born 9 months and one week after the wedding, and her career was over. My dad was the breadwinner so he had the last say. If he wanted to take a different job in another state, she started packing. She had no say because she was dependent on him. I loved both of my parents, but I decided as a young girl that I would never let that happen to me.

"Many divorces can be traced back to when the wife went into employment"... These women were trapped in marriage until they could support themselves!

Inspiration calls for church: I had 5 healthy children then had two Down syndrome children 18 months apart, 7 total. They called me to Gospel Doctrine teacher, I tried for one year and I was so overwhelmed. I was told “ Can’t say no to the Lord.” So just imagine the struggle with two handicapped children demanding 150% of my time, but they wanted me to do all the family and teach. It almost broke me…it took as much time as full time college schedule on top of all the responsibly of mothering….😮 I’m out of the church now. The truth claims were false…5 th generation, I have put the 6&7 th generation into this cult

Thank you for inviting older women. I’m 64. I used to rage against those talks in the 80’s. As a sociologist I would love a space where older women could leave a video of their stories about this.

Stay at home mothers don’t pay into Social Security, so they will not be eligible for benefits unless they claim the benefits of the spouse . The various ways that patriarchal societies capture women into precarious lives is insidious.

"A man is not a financial plan." I say it over and over to my granddaughters.

I am so mad! I really wanted to go to Law School but no! I got to go back after my youngest was in school. I traded fixing up our home and promised to have dinner home cooked every night for the privilege of going to school AND find scholarships to pay for it! It took 15 years! But I ended up with a Ph.d that I never got to use! My husband said we have gotten by, no need to go to work now. I am so mad! I refuse to listen to or follow a woman that did not follow the prophet! I spent years in therapy as I was terribly depressed having followed the Prophet! I am so mad! Thank you for taking my dreams! Oh how I wish I could get out!!! Another story for another time!

Fantastic panel! Women, really speaking their minds, unemcumbered by trying to please "the brethren," is so refreshing! This gaslighting of women will not stand! We KNOW what was taught, and we sacrificed accordingly!

I have 4 daughters and they caused my awakening to the absurd patriarchy of the church. Each amazing daughter has chosen to step away, as they reach YW and see the disparity of treatment and messages. My girls are why I use my male privilege to speak out for women, especially in the church.

I was married in the temple in 1974. I knew I should be home with my kids. The father of my children told me I was of no worth if I wasn't bringing in money. I taught piano lessons and babysat so I could be home with my babies. Honestly, the babysitting turned me into a screaming mimi. I also did some secretarial work from home on the side. Later on, I had to drop out of college to get a job to pay back funds said husband embezzled from his employer. 😢 Marrying a returned missionary in the temple did not work out for me. I finally divorced after 27 years.

Thank you RFM for elevating the women’s voices, we need to hear them

My daughter informed me that she would never be like me. I was stuck in a bad marriage with no education and no job (of course following church council to stay home with my children). My daughter has worked her whole married life. She has two beautiful children and is an exemplary mother. She has the freedom to choose to leave her marriage if circumstances go bad.

I’ve noticed that in these discussions over the last week or so, an absence of the pre- courser of these talks. This timeline and the talks seem to be a clampdown of attitudes after the ruling on Roe vs. Wade- a huge legal loss to the churches in the USA. The “get her back in the home campaign “ felt like an attempt to regain control. I’m 65 and remember well being show the movie “ Silent Scream” in my relief society class my first year of college. It’s all about control!

Dallin Oaks “reads the room” as well as Joseph Smith “read the mob” at Carthage. 🥴

Who are you, top left corner? You literally need your own podcast. Everyone here is amazing but I want to hear 1000 hours from you. Feisty and right on point!

This was an amazing collaboration! Thank you so much for doing this, RFM! You all read my mind before my mind could even process it all the way! I am in the age range of all of you!

Wouldn’t it have been nice in the 70’s and 80’s for prophets to have been able to see around corners. They surely would have seen that home prices in Utah would increase to the point it’s nearly impossible to buy a home on the income of one provider. They could have told us in 2024 you’ll need to make 300,000 to afford the lifestyle that 100,000 afforded you in 1980. Sisters get your education so that you can help provide for your family in the future.

Great episode. There's also a mentality that birth control is only to prevent pregnancy. So single sisters who need birth control to address legitimate health problems keep it a secret so that its not assumed that they are immoral.

The US birth rate is at 1.6/woman and basically every religious conservative is having heart palpitations.

Wendy Nelson and Sherri Dew worked outside of the home their entire lives

I was considered unmarriable when I attended Ricks College because I had type 1 diabetes and was told not to have children. No young man wanted to date me, because I was advised to not have children.

I was fighting on Instagram under Oaks' comment and the amount of women gaslighting on there saying this was never taught was so infuriating.

Commenting to help.

I heared all this stuff when i was in the LDS church. I totally ignored all that advice. I never stayed at home as my daughters father was unable to work.

Camille has NEVER been there for her kids or grandkids, by her own admission, sooner or later, shit hits the fan, I’m still trying to help my hubby get past the abandonment that his parents gave, all in the name of the church, she is very good at self promotion

This makes me so angry! I came of age in the 80's and 90's where it was crystal clear I was to only be a wife and mother and had no other worth. Even considering a career was evil. How does she get away with it?!?! I hate the Mormon cult more and more each day!

I was a Mormon stay at home mom while my husband went to medical school, residency, and fellowship. The story you shared….it was NOT God who made it possible. It was that wife who gave up everything to have children and raise them while her husband was getting a medical degree. I can tell you from personal experience that you are basically a single parent in that situation. It’s extremely difficult and isolating.

I am so grateful for a mother in the 70’s and 80’s to teach me to be independent. She was fierce! And I am now a stockbroker. Have been for 30 years.

If the LDS church wants more money, they would want the women to work.

Oh my, how I regret spending more than 10% of my time in callings like high council, bishopric, bishop, stake mission leader. I missed so much if my kids growing up. I honestly thought I was doing gods will. I’m 77 and bitterly regret it. Lost time to never come again.

In 1987 I was asked to give a talk in sacrament meeting, based on the pamphlet. Because of the culture in the LDS church of always saying yes, I couldn't refuse the request, but how I hated giving that talk. I still remember it vividly.

Even though I'm only thirty, many of my friends and I also did not imagine a world where we could have kids and work. Because we were taught by our mothers and yw leaders who were taught by these leaders. Maybe the new graduates have a better outlook. But the damage is not all over. My generation is still feeling it.

Oaks forgot to list dental work, and other medical care for all those children without end. Not all is covered by insurance and many families have none.

I remember women working in the 1980s in part time jobs to make ends meet. They were always apologiseing.

My daughter went to nursery. Dad was unable to work. Absolutely turned out unscathed. She is an engineer and doing what shexfeels right for her.

Based on the comments here this will be an unpopular comment but - here goes: - a strong family is the backbone of every healthy society - women of other faiths also have children and choose to stay home to care for them especially when they are little. - The Proclamation of the Family that came out 20 years ago, encouraged husbands and wives working together as equal partners - and leaves the interpretation of what that looks like, to each couple - Studies show that people are healthier and happier married with children. -Children DO need to be cared for. And in the end, it is these relationships that matter most -Homes and home life matters and for a season it might be best to focus on this and caring for the children -women are encouraged to get as much education as they can. - Camille Johnson was half way through her law degree when she got married. What did you want her to do ? Quit ? That’s where she and her husband made a prayerful decision. That’s her story. These women seem very very jealous - these women seem bitter and interpret their experiences through a lens of bitterness - when all is said and done, at the end of your life, it will be your relationships that matter and not how many days you spent working - so funny that the host insists that this is not an exaggeration of Latter-day Saint Women’s experiences. Much of what these women shared are their personal interpretations of their own choices - Their personal opinions and not actually fact. There are millions of Latter-day Saint women who do not share their views - women’s issues continue to evolve but these women’s interpretations of what happened are skewed and come from a place of anger, bitterness and jealousy - these women … don’t appear to be currently active in the church. Therefore, your title “real” Mormon women is misleading.

Nice panel discussion!

This is one of the most helpful and supportive podcasts for my generation. 🙏 I attended BYU from 1993-1995 (i escaped after that) and I certainly suffered the aftermath of this “stay at home mom” push. It was the most damaging and devastating environment for young women. I could have done so much more, been a doctor or struggled a lot less financially if I hadn’t been trying to, and pressured to, follow this nonsense that supposedly came from God. 🙄

Ffs. Commenting to help but OMG all the feelings 💔💔

Martine wasn't "quiet at all". She was outspoken and excellent throughout.

Loved this conversation! I thoroughly enjoyed everyone's perspective. More of this please!

“It’s not too late to cry at church” Rebecca that was epic!

Church Leadership may be aged 80s & 90s, but stats tell them more children per family usually means poverty in today's economy, including Utah. Fewer kids, dual incomes means more tithing. Well paid professionals give extra money & are asked to become mission presidents. Sister Johnson is talking about the track for wealthy upper tier Mormons. So watch what they do, see how church rewards them & does not tell everyone to stop following the "prior" advice. Practically there are different LDS churches forged in the last 50 years.

It's about time rank and file members stood up for themselves. To often they consent to things against their interest, as the sheep did in Animal Farm : 2 legs good, 4 legs bad. The principle of 'some are more equal than others' is amply demonstrated within the church hierarchy but is perpetuated by members baaing consent. Mormanimal Farm will continue unless the 99 sheep storm the farm.

Great job ! All of you !

Great episode! Incredible panel! Thank you!

“Faith without works is dead” and that is what I am going be if I don’t use birth control! I had. 4 kids in 6 years! And had two more in the next 3 years! The Bishop said “NO” to birth control. We had so many couples that cannot have children! I ended up with heart damage and open heart surgery when my baby was only 6 months old! I have got to stop! So does she!

Why isn't anyone (in the church) worried about the lack of informed consent for the children of influencers? How is it not distasteful in church circles to make money shilling with your kids' faces and lives as the subject matter? Some of these women influencers are doing so much damage to their families. And I would argue, most influencers would do their children a great service by having a full time job and leaving the job at the office or just not pretending influencing is a family-friendly job.

I come from a very matriarchal family. Dad's worked away, women ran everything, and worked. Indeed the whole neighbourhood was like that. I can hear my dead mother and my aunts laughing at what was said from that podium at the women's conference.

She used to be my feminist icon because she said that she made her children read books at dinner. LMAO. I was like if I was a mother that’s the only way I could be a mother. Shut up and read a book.

Great chemistry. Four very funny intelligent guests.

As a young father in early 80s I taught my children to get education. All of them. They did and are all graduate degreed professionals inc daughter. My wife and I had a lot of stress because she was home all day and felt trapped. She finished school when our children were in school but left me and church because of the patriarchy. She didn’t think I would leave …she didn’t give me a chance she assumed. I did too. Oaks is so out of touch with what’s going on. We know he hasn’t seen Jesus so it’s all on him. They make this up because this mom at home was how it was done in the 1920s when they were children. Besides the 1st pres was too busy serving missions …not

Now in my sixties I have a low paying retail job because I chose to be a stay at home mom and not get an education and I am a widow. What now?

Thanks!

For those in the church, I'm glad they have a woman who maintained a career as an example -- an alternate voice and path. But I sure wish I could erase the extreme guilt I felt when I had two kids in daycare in the 90s. There were so many talks in General/Stake Conferences, Sunday meetings, firesides, and testimony meetings that heavily asserted I was doing wrong by working. It led me to quit after 6 years and stunted my career path.

I was a nevermo stay at home mom with the difference being that I was able to choose without being told what to do. I have so much sympathy for LDS mothers who had to obey whatever these old white men leaders said without question.

(1.28.08) Rebecca exactly!! Juggle the pregnancy birth nursing roundabout with no help at all, run the house, serve the church. Carry the eternal salvation of all your family. Don’t you dare have a morning coffee or take 20 minutes to put on yoga pants

I remember hearing both talks when I was young and was absolutely livid that two old men thought that they had the right to tell me how to live my life. The message would’ve been bad enough if I’d heard it from women, but from two men who had no clue what being a female first and a female church member second was even like? No way! I had been taught by my dad, his feisty and wonderful mother and an influential teacher in HS to not only think for myself but to refuse to give someone else the permission to think and make decisions for me. From my earliest memories I remember my mom, and later, my YW leaders and church leaders telling me that I was too “independent” for “my own good”. I was told that no good Mormon man would want to marry me because I would expect to have a say in how many children we had and in all decisions that affected my family and myself. Shame on me! With that said, I have always found it disingenuous for the majority of speakers at the annual BYU Women’s Conference to be successful (mostly) married women who have had interesting careers and lives. The vast majority of women who attend these conferences followed the church leaders’ counsel to get married young, have a bunch of kids and defer in everything to their husbands because “.they’re the Priesthood”. I know from talking to family and friends who followed this path that hearing and seeing these speakers being touted by the church has been a huge punch in the gut. The church can’t have it both ways no matter how much they want to.

30:49 I graduated high school in 1987. All throughout my young women’s time I was taught that ladies should go to college to meet a guy and she should get a degree as a back up plan in case something happened to her husband that made it so he was unable to work and she was forced to have to work outside the home

As a nevermo friend of a TBM, I met Camille Johnson recently at an event. What struck me is how similarly she presented compared to a typical corporate exec. This is not a church. It is a corporation masking as one.

OK I only just began this podcast but President Kimball actually told women not to socialize???? Women having women friends is absolutely essential to mental health, especially when it comes to surviving patriarchy! Seems like the ideal Mormon world is very silent. No music, no warm sweaters, no women except as domestic help. No thanks!

We don’t scroll to find an answer we like a prophet scrolls surveys to find how to lead the church.

I was living in northern VA during the ERA mess and met Sonja Johnson once. Not that it was a pleasant encounter....

I would love to see another panel, to explore/explain the reasoning WHY we think the prophets laid this down. My gen z kiddos asked and I didn’t know why . Why are they changing their minds now? Maybe it’s because they will get more tithing?

They are probably paying more than the required 10 percent lol

How is raising healthy, securely attached children not “building The Kingdom?!”

10:35 mothers are the ones giving the lessons to other children in a lot of cases

Money and honor wasn’t in the way for her. It was the way !

I think that Oaks impulsively slipped into his best role as president of BYU when he said she is a role model.

Let me remind you, children of any age are NOT allowed at women’s conference. Go figure that

He just did this show to prove he can not interrupt. 😅

I mostly agree although I will say that while the message to these lady’s might be she’s special and did it and they couldn’t, it’s being given to college women who could absolutely take that message as an optional path they can take… why wouldn’t it?

So people really believe that the Prophet talks directly to Jesus? I don’t recall believing that literally during my 60+ years of activity. Too many mistakes and changes in doctrine/ policy, and lack of common sense and many immoral/unethical teachings.

Lila said it!!!

Thank you! Thank you for those amazingly beautiful, true quotes! I loved them all!! Stay at home mom here without one. single. regret!! So proud of our beautiful, intelligent BYU graduate daughters who stay home and who have the amazing support of their wonderful husbands.

25:42 I had a friend who along with his wife, decided that since the rule was no birth control allowed, they interpreted that to me that God did not approve of any sex that was not for conceiving a child. So they set out to only have sex whenever they felt like it was time for them to welcome a new child into the family. I’ve since lost touch with this friend so I don’t know, how over the course of the last 30 years things developed for them but that was how the first 10 years of their marriage started out

Who are the "elite" piano teachers in Utah? If there are any in Cache valley, I'd like to know.

The problems of the world aren't there because Mom isn't home, they're there because we don't have community as much any more. At one time when our ancestors were developing social groups, etc. we lived in tribes and tribes raised children together. If we aren't going back to that then we need to figure something else out besides shame. I'm so grateful I'm not apart of that any more it caused so much depression in me to try and be Joan clever every day. Before the industrial revolution both men and women worked outside the home with anything they could. The false promise of industry made us think we could do different is showing its true colors right now. It's not what works especially in hard times, the hard economic times right now aren't enough of an emergency for both parents working in the leaderships tone deaf minds?

Stereotype or stranglehold

I’m so sorry

Does anyone know if the female “leaders” get any type of income like the top male leaders?

Is that a picture of Bill Murray? He's so funny!

1:13:52 A slight correction to what she said. Mothers raise MALE children to be future leaders. She forgot to add the male part.

RFM , why are there sounds -like whistling- coming over through out the podcast ?????

Sister Johnson has three children. Back in those days, that was generally a deliberate choice to limit the number of children in their family. And wow, did we judge by the numbers! It would’ve taken lots of mental gymnastics for her to makes these choices back then

I’m not Mormon and just happened on this UTube and wonder if these people are part of the LDS church and if they are, why? If they are so unhappy with the way things are they should leave. I truly wonder why any woman could they subject themselves to what I think is abuse.

It’s wasn’t a flip. Giving women the power to vote gave the church more power because the women would vote whatever way the church wanted them too!

Polygamist make bank sending out professional Moms to work while another sisterwife holds down the fort.

More time together but not with the dad and not if there is a church activity or calling.

Hint for the bro~ let the women do the talking...

I’m really sorry to be co-opting the chat, but this is a very important topic to me. I suddenly remember being at EFY and hearing from a woman who was a professional anchor on the news… I remember thinking that you really can have it all, until she said… “You can’t have it all.” She essentially left her amazing career to be a mother. And she suggested that all of us youth do the same thing. I don’t know what my career would be today if I hadn’t heard this destructive message. I honestly think that I was lucky to be queer because a avoided relationships with men, for that reason, and was able to develop a career.

Camille’s speech drips of wealth - so disgusting

That was like watching a cynical gaggle of hens and an neutered old rooster clucking around the henhouse.

Her voice is so cringey

The ERA would have resulted in women being drafted into the military.

The Living God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit bless you all. Praying you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. You are precious in Gods sight and honoured and He loves you.

How come leftists rarely criticize Islam and the burka?

Did you guys have or do you have bad lives now? Are you divorced, in un loved marriages are you poor? I’m not saying I don’t get the regret that you feel, I do. I’m just curious, you sound like you have miserable lives or you really hate the choices you made