SAILBOAT REBUILD - what they DON'T TELL YOU about PRODUCTION BOATS - Plastskador repair week 2 

I'm a boat builder in the uk and have had to repair a number of yachts with similar damage. I think I've seen four Oceanis 34's in the past couple of years for example. Couple of things that struck me from the video. Your info re epoxy is incorrect. I agree that laminating strength would be fine using polyester or even better, vinylester. However this repair relies on bonding performance to a vinylester hull as well as laminating. Bonding performance of vinylester on cured vinylester laminate is reasonable. The bonding performance of polyester however is poor. Epoxy will significantly outperform both. Finishing of the inside of the hull using a white epoxy primer is just as easy as gellwashing it, with the added benefit of the epoxy being watertight where'as the gelcoat is microporus. (hense Osmosis) I would also advise the use of Polysulphide sealant such as Arbokol1000 for the keel joint. You really don't need the adhesive qualities of Sika or Saba as thats what the Keel bolts are there for. What you do need is the sealing qualities and Adhesive Sealants tend to lose their sealant qualities long before the adhesive. Overtime when the sealant hardens it loses its flex and water will creep in via capilary action to the root of the keelbolts providing the ideal conditions for crevis crack corrosion. I have seen this numerous times. Much better to use a flexible sealant that does not harden over time and rely on the keelbolts to hold the keel on as thats what they're there for.

So good to hear progress is being made and also to be stronger and better, theres always something new to learn, I hope you guys get it back in the water before summer!

I had a brand new yacht custom built I later was shocked at how thin the laminations were. I later bought an older yacht that was built by a well respected builder and the difference in strength is extraordinary. Years later this yacht still looks new. Zero stress fractures.

Thanks brother for the detailed video. I'm hoping to buy a sailboat in the future and still learning a lot. Seeing the inter workings and hull is a big help!

I came here from a comment on Expedition Evans and look forward to watching your journey. Liked, subscribed and rang the bell!

I know exactly what you’re going through, my sailboat was grounded last year by me and is in a workshop in Oxelösund now. Because of the Covid they didn’t let me see it while in repair shop and today the keel was mounted back. Next week they will finish up and the boat is ready for a new season. Because of your video , tomorrow I will be driving there and have a look at my boat, I haven’t seen it in a month and I miss her allot. At least your boat is closer to where you live and you can see the progress .I also live in Stockholm area but driving 250km both ways is not something you can do every day. My boat was repaired in about 2 weeks. See u on the water and keep making this videos, by the way, good job on editing 😁!

Subscribed -- right away. Super interesting, will binge watch all of your episodes. Thanks for sharing.

Hey Chris, you will be getting some of the 'Expedition Evan's' crew over here soon :). I am so pleased to see the work going ahead and being done correctly. I believe you are correct in saying you will have a better boat at the end of this process. Hypothetically if I was to choose your boat new for your proposed round the world journey or after its repair I would hands down choose it after the repair.

A good summary. Aligns with my experience having been there myself. On my yacht the workmanship for the repair was absolutely top notch.

I rebuilt an old CAL34. Already a strong boat but I added several layers of fiberglass to every joint I could access, on the recommendation of a surveyor. Now it is as stiff as a board. Zero flexing. Gives me a lot of confidence offshore

I'm following another channel called Expedition Evans and they bought a salvage beneteau that also grounded causing the same damage as yours, they did exactly the same stripped the bonding and laminated everything back in. they did it themselves, you're lucky you got someone to do it for you

Just stumbled on this and subbed. It looks like there’s a lot of history for me to catch up on, which I’m really looking forward to. Best wishes. David

I find it really interesting to watch and learn more. Yes it was an unfortunate charter accident that you would rather not have had. But on the positive side, the boat should be stronger because of it. Thanks for another informative video.

Very interesting video, when bilge pumps and float switches are great when they work, but have their challenging moments like when the connections corrode, thanks again for a great video

Thanks for the videos guys. My heart bleeds for you watching this. Also seen the Expedition Evans ones recently. My father had a Beneteau Oceanis 54 which was in charter in Turkey and had it grounded. Was very painful to see back then too. Im sure it will be built back stronger if you get it all epoxy glassed back in rather than bonded.(Dont know why they still do that tbh after seeing Cheeki Rafiki...but at least you have a nice large keel bolt plate in there.) I have a Jeanneau 349 with swing keel. Comes with its own challenges. I hope if (and probably when) I ground it the keel swings back like its supposed to. Only held on with 4 bolts (2 each side) through a threaded transverse keel swing shaft. All the best. Fair winds. David

Excellent presentation, and very informative. Also the comment section has some great experts. Subscribed straight away.

Very nice vid- as an owner of a 458 I love to see the technical side of our boats

Fantastic footage and description. Keep it up!

Truly great and helpful vid. I believe the industry will see a partial return to integrated, modified full keels. Subscribed. Thx.

Nice progress - keep at it!

Looking like a really good repair..cheers

It is really entertaining to watch boat repairs. 👍

As Chris says, most modern boats have been built this way for a number of years. HR use a similar grid frame that is bonded (whether it's over laminated I'm not sure, in some pictures it doesn't look like it is). You have to remember the energy involved in 12 tons of boat travelling at (let's say) 6 knots meeting a solid object like a rock. If you think of a car analogy and you have an accident, the chasis is always checked afterwards, this is the boats "chasis". This is why the ORC are now stipulating hull condition checks before offshore races, especially after cheeki raffiki and it's various repairs. Modern boats / keel designs are fine for all the conditions they will encounter at sea, but not designed for significant contact with the land or immovable objects. The important thing after damage is the integrity of the repair and this job looks to be very thorough. Get those wires and some spare mousing lines in whilst you can Chris ;-)

The bonding, if done with quality materials, is very good practise, the reason that Hanse is in business is because they choose the best, most economical way to build. This collision is about as bad as it can get without holing the hull. I can so empathise with feeling confidence in the tradespeople. Looking forward to seeing this completed.

My partner and I have been watching every episode as we have a 418 on order. I can’t tell you how excited we are about picking her up from Greifswald later this year! It was shocking to see the damage done to Aurora and the wait to get her fixed must have seemed interminable for you! The repair looks to be very thorough and the yard have done a great job thus far. I’ve been wondering how those cutout sections will be reinstated, but ensuring the grid is a strong as it once was. I guess I’ll just have to be patient to find out, but am looking forward to following the numerous stages of the repair. With the grid glass bonded to the hull, Aurora is going to be extra robust! It’s also nice to get sight of the anatomy of Aurora, so we have an understanding of the hidden bits of our 418, when we need to take things apart. I don’t agree that production boats are poorly put together - the build quality looks as solid as the rest of what we saw when aboard two other examples. The damage to your boat looked bad, but sailing 12 tonnes of yacht at 6 plus knots into a rock will do serious damage! I wonder whether you can get the track data off the plotter as there should be specific speed and direction information for the collision. You’ll need some sort of .gpx file reader software. Just one question: I notice that you have a 3 bladed Flexofold prop. What engine size do you have fitted to Aurora? Best of luck Chris and look forward to seeing the boat out on the water again! 👍

You are very good at narrating, keeping it interesting and informative. Well done! On the subject matter, I am surprised to see that the problem with a delaminating grid structure, is more common than i thought..

You shouldn't need a thru-hull for a bilge pump. It is normal practice to discharge through an open port in the transom above sea level (with a flapper/check valve to prevent backflow). The pump should be more than capable of lifting the flow to the required level. Either way, you don't want a T to restrict flow. You should have a dedicated hose (with no connections or restrictions), end to end for both manual and electric pumps.

Very interesting and informative. I only avoid bolt on keels because they seem to always have big vulnerable spade rudders, but there is so much more to this.

The quality of the bilge hose is as important as the pump. I changed out my old (corrugated) hose for a smooth bore (on both electric and manual pumps) and either can now empty the bilge in a fraction of the time that it used to require (for the same size pump). There is a world of difference between lamina flow and turbulent flow.

I just found your channel. If you've never seen his channel, Mads (Sail Life) has an amazing channel and he's just about completed a near complete rebuild of a Warrior 38.

Some great info on production boat construction! Cheers.

I found this video to be very well explained and that I learnt a lot from it. Subscribed due to that.

Hi Chris, thank you for another very informative video. Lets hope that Aurora will indeed inherit some benefits of a custom yacht! On the subject of the new bilge pump, Johnson quotes 4 times more flow than the stock Xylem (Jabsco). It is however double the height of the stock pump (216mm vs 111mm) so I doubt it can fit under the floorboard. An alternative that I am considering is to fit a second Xylem pump close to the original one, that only activates once the original pump is overwhelmed. In addition, it might be a good idea to install a 3rd pump in the forward cabin. Water could go anywhere when you are sailing. In any case, the through-hull should be above water level at all angles of heel. But the higher you go the pump's performance will be dramatically reduced, so I think the best option is what Hanse already does, i.e. take the hose aft, right below the platform opening. btw I am planning a transatlantic voyage in a couple of years by joining the ARC rally in November 2023. If this may trigger your interest and fix a date, just think about it! All the best

I like your attention to detail.

you should check out how X-Yachts mount their keel into a steal craddle that also takes the mast and the spreaders. Had a grounding with my X-442 on an uncharted rock after Tsunami in Thailand, at about 6 knots, the boat stopped with a massive bang, but we managed to here off the rock. On inspection, the lower led keel itself had some holes and scoops of led missing. The keel to hull bond was solid all around, no cracks in the hull or keel mount area. Inside the craddle was in perfect shape, no delamination, keel bolts straight and undamaged. Back in the water in a few days. X-Yachts !

Hi Chris, another great episode. I like your recaps a great deal, very professional. Not much to say this time. Glassing in the repair areas is proper. You make a distinction between a production boat (bonded grid) and a "custom" boat (glassed grid). You will mislead folks that don't have a good understanding of boat building. The vast majority of sailboats are production boats, meaning a company is making the same hull and deck over and over, from a mold. A true custom boat is when you go to a naval architect and tell them you have an idea for a sailboat and you want them to design it. Then you take the drawing from the architect to a boat yard and say here, build me this boat. There is a middle, or semi-custom boat. Make no mistake it is a production boat but the customer has a great deal of input on interior design and layout, hardware selection and so fourth. With a semi-custom, or production boat the customer is never given a choice of bonded or glassed grid. Moody and Hanse are under the same umbrella that is why you will see some Moody design and innovations in the Hanse. Moody is a production boat, it is a semi-custom. Hanse bonds their grid, Moody has a glassed in grid. Amel production boat without much input from the customer, glassed grid. Sirus a small german maker of of some fantastic sailboats. They only have 3 boats in there offering 31, 35, and 40 foot. There boats are semi-custom, the customer has a great deal of input. All their boats have a glassed in grid. Bonded grids are safe, strong, and work well except when they don't. Would I exclude a boat maker from my list of what new/used boat I am going to buy based only on how the grid is secured. Yes, I would, I guess I am a bit OCD about that. OCD and bilge pumps. I hear and understand you mate. For what it is worth. Get the best and highest capacity pump that will fit in your bilge. Matter of fact, get two. The bilge pump thru-hulls being above the water line is not as critical of material used, as those below the water line. Having a seperate thru-hull for each of your 2 or more main bilge pumps is the way to go. You are doing very well, I like to watch as your knowledge base increases. Here ya go use a sealant when you want protect from water intrusion. Ues an adhesive when you want to attach something to something. On the keel, it is 3M 5200 adhesive. There is no other choice that compares. Those guys at 3M have an "unofficial" slogan about 5200, it goes like this. "What 5200 puts together, no one but God takes apart" Be happy, be safe.

Hope the repair turns out well. I'm sure it will be beautiful again by the end of this process

Phantastic Video and information.

Thank you for your showing other repairs in your last video....its amazing how much the manufacture's cut cost by using bonding materials in key strength area's...to keep costs down....as they say in many things (TIME IS MONEY) 😠 instead of quality ...😢 and care of the final product....🤔

Great video!

Great video, interesting to see the work being carried out. That is some bilge pump you are looking at installing, 258l/min - just looked at the spec for mine, a Johnson pump, a miserable 16l/min, I think a bucket might be quicker.

The more I see this grid issue in these the more I'm glad I'm rebuilding a older Newport.

you are passing through what @Expedition Evans passed, they got a damaged boat and there are tons of videos of all their work to re-laminate a grounded Beneteau.. good learning channel of how the boat is built

This makes me feel great about our decision to buy an older Swan rather than a (much) newer Beneteau for similar money.

I totally agree on the comments on how the stringer is bonded to the hull, but the real problem is about the quality of the adhesive used. Use a polyester/vinyl-ester bonding paste

Well made video. This is a major repair that most boat owners hope not to be faced with. You've turned it into something positive. Could you share your general budget and time needed to get this done?

The second bilge pump is a definite Go Ahead. The one you have is way too Pussy for a boat of this size and investment. A separate hose and discharge port is a definite Yes. I also do not like standing water in my bilge--always want to determine how it got there?!-Mikey, Belfair, Wa, USA

Put a 30mm condut across in the grid then you will have space for wiring later

Very interesting getting into the various build formulas, I own a a custom built low production power yacht 650k for 38' and even though it was a low production there are still items that suprise you. I like that you have pointed out that in general its also true car production up and down a manufacturer line many similar parts. My beef is that many of these parts are lower quality made in china which I understand but not getting the mark up on crap parts. Bilge pumps - I obsesse as well no water but interestingly I have 6 bilge pumps.

I’m coming from the carbon fibre world where when you bond two pieces of carbon fibre together using Methyl Methacrylate you’re not able to break that seam before you actually crack the cf laminate first. I’m curious to understand what is the bonding material used in boats like Hanse? Methyl Methacrylate should bond equally as well to glass fibre. I believe you got the it backwards regarding polyester being stiffer, that is not the case. Tensile strength in epoxy is higher than polyester. Great video. Interesting to see the work carried out by these guys.

Thanks for the in depth! Die nut is the term in Oz. For cleaning a damaged thread. I plan to build a cat yet all boat repairs are educational.

Same story like Expedition Evans. Hmmm, interesting.

Bilge pumps. You absolutely need an upgrade here. That pump is a clearing pump only, i.e. it is designed to get very close to the bottom of the boat to clear the last few gallons. If you are heading offshore my advice is to fit 2 fully independent pumps with separate outlets (T 2 hoses together at least halves the pump output). Arrange the switches so that one comes on a couple of inches higher than the other. The idea is that the first one is the 'working pump' and the second one kicks in when the first one fails, clogs or is overwhelmed. Because the second pump normally stays dry and unused it is more likely to work when you really need it. Also rig a loud alarm to the second pump, if it goes off you know you have an emergency. A good idea, but not essential, is to use the same model for both pumps, that way you only need one spare. When sizing the pumps look at how much water can come in if a sea-cock, rudder seal of prop shaft seal blows. Your pumps need to clear water fast enough in that event for you to make a repair. Personally I would not consider anything less than 2000gal/hour (for each, not total) as a bilge pump on any boat that is going offshore. I have always fitted 4000g/hr and under test these will keep the sump clears if you open a 1.5" sea cock but they will be working close to capacity to do it.

Great video. Thank you.

You mentioned that the keel of your Hanse 40' was bolted through just 10mm of hull fiberglass. It is insightful to contrast current boatbuilding practice against 1980's boatbuilding practice. My 1985 Pearson 36-2 has a 10mm thick structural grid of longitudinal stringers and lateral ribs. The grid extends up above the heeled waterline, and the grid appears to be bonded to the 10mm thick hull with 5200. The strength of the grid is such that the shroud chain-plates are bolted to the grid where its top edge is heavily glassed to the hull. The grid also extends down into the hull's keel stub & bilge. Consequently, the external lead keel is bolted through both structures comprising at least 20mm of fiberglass.

Thank you kindly, awesome explanation!

Thanks Sailing Aurora. You mentioned brass versus plastic seacocks. Like you said plastic seacocks have the potential of shattering under an impact load. The reason for this is some seacocks are made of cheap plastic with a poor fracture toughness. The cure is to force the seacock manufactures to build out of more expensive plastics with acceptable fracture toughness. Fracture toughness is a materials resistance to cracking under impact load. I am sure there must be manufactures who build seacock with very good plastic parts. Any suggestions from the other readers. Good luck with the rebuild.

Great video,keep it up!🛳

Thank you! Very helpful.

You experienced the reason I will only own a full keel boat. I know of dozens of fin keels boats that have suffered this same damage. 9 out of 10 never make it back to the water. Those boats include models of every manufacture you mentioned at the beginning of your video.

VERY instructive. Sincere thanks :)

Wow this is unbelievable, how much work this takes. How much is all of this going to cost??? Great drone shots and content. Keep up the good work.

For a steel boat sailor, very interesting to see! Through hull fittings: With collars around 'plastic' valves, like supplied by several, valves are accepted by for instance USCG. Bronze will last for ever in sea water. I myself removed valves/seacocks from sv Venus, at that time 110 year old original Collin Archer. Material was by spec. 'Admirality Bronze', that in fact is a sw resistant brass. Same material in keel bolts on this vessel. No corrosion, no damage, appart from wear. The boat was built in Larvik, commisioned to Bergen. Sea water all her life. Now in Oslo, Maritime Museum. Still sailing.

ahoy ⚓️ very well documented! I have one more question: is the damage insured? And what does the repair cost? thanks for replying. Lg. Stefan from Switzerland 🇨🇭

Maybe someone mentioned this in another post, but, have you had the engine brackets holding the motor in place checked? They usually take quite the damage when running aground, just food for thought.

Glad to see things going well. Great explanations. You and RAN2 really make sailing in the Swedish archipelago really attractive.

You sound just like Korg, great vid

Awesome video. Tnx!

Expedition Evans bought a grounded boat and repaired it themselves. Same issues.

Thru-Hull fittings and taps, the general rule that most of us follow in tropical waters is to change them every 7 to 10 years whether Bronze or Plastic. the fitting materials usually outlast the ball valve area of the tap. The ball and internal face usually fail and seize (thru poor maintenance) before serious corrosion problems. Some English made valves are made for pull-apart maintenance, expensive but worth a look, for a much longer service life than 10 years. I only have 2 thru-hulls, one for in and one for out, I run a manifold system on my custom built boat.

Glad you're doing it right!

This is the trade off for fibreglass boats In the end isn’t it? They’re much cheaper and lighter but less solid if something does go wrong... Enjoying watching the work done anyway as every boat material has merits and they’re all interesting.

Would you be able to provide the grounding details? (Speed at time of grounding, what was hit, weather, etc). It appears this was a significant event. If this is covered in another video I look for it. Thank you!

You can use a t connector for a pump out but it must have a check value, and one that will not clog. Some pumps have check values built in?

The fishing boat had a y valve in the bilge,it could suck salt water through a throughhull for washdown or y valve to bilges for sinking,kept us running for hours till we ran the boat aground under the lift at the hall out yard….

I've heard of a tee valve being added to the engine cooling system to suck in bilge water in an emergency to augment the bilge pump. Personally, I don't think that would add much. Better to add another bilge pump for more throughput AND redundancy.

Have you watched 'Expedition Evans' where they are re-glassing the grid back after a grounding ?

I'm thinking what would happen to a boat with a fully laminated grid during a hard grounding? Would more damage be done to the hull itself?

If the bond has broken between the hull and grid flange, you’ll have to cut the flange off and put in a fillets then lap multiple layers of epoxy glass across the two. Lapping glass on top of the flange and onto the hull won’t have enough strength to keep the grid from peeling and lifting away the the hull.

Good investment? Would you do it again? Also I would replace the front keel bolts at least.

Good job, I hope you succeed. Where do you repair the boat?

I have watched way to many videos of problems with production boats, I have been in the market for a 45'-65' sailing catamaran and I decided on an aluminum hull boat and I am building it myself.

Too bad about the boat. I'm in the same predicament on my own. My boat has had a really hard gronding a loong time ago. The problem is that the repair is delaminating.... descoverd this when i started to fix my osmosis problem... so no im considering buying a different boat. It's is an old boat... but im gonna follow your videos with great interest. Best of luck . Regards Jarle

Interesting!

Keel bolts tend to be cast in lead, and drilled/taped in iron.

The strength of fiberglass is long continuous strands of glass fibers laminated before the chemical reaction has cured.A repair patch stick on is just that a patch.When your hull flexed and popped the glued in grid structure the entire hull flexed and broke the fibers.Marelon fore spar thru hulls are inert and lightning proof along with non corrosive. Amel uses a sea chest for that reason as does feadship

Hello. Another Brit in Sweden here. Currently planning my escape. And I've decided to do it by boat (just waiting for the kids to get old enough to press the eject on). I'm no sailor, despite spending 18 years living in a house on the sea on Karlsudd. I've only ever got on the sea with my RIB, and was once told what ropes to pull on aboard a friends Mälar 22. So I'm gathering info for the getaway. Just wondering why you bought new boat. Is it because you just never know the history of a used boat and there can be bad things lurking? From experience, I know that besiktningsmän(hän?) for houses are hopeless. Is this the same for second-hand boats? Thanks.

My Nor'sea hull is twice as thick and it's only 27 feet. I had a bad grounding and had to put a little fiberglass bandaid on the leading edge of the encapsulated keel. It was 1/4" deep gouge at the deepest point, but it wasn't even close to penetrating to the lead. I felt extremely sick with myself, but it's nothing like this. I've been through all the new production boats at the boatshow and they are so inferior which is a shame because as you say the same equipment is used, and I'm fine with a cheap interior, but a compromise in hull integrity is unacceptable in my opinion.

I have had two bad experiences with plastic through hole fittings on a trimaran I owned. Firstly when I purchased it it was only about 5 years old and the fittings had become brittle in that short time and I had to replace them. A few years later we hit a floating log at speed and it knocked off the head of a fitting. Luckily the amas kept the boat floating. I wish I had used quality brass fittings. The plastic fittings must have been poor quality but I didn’t realise that there was such a thing as poor quality through hole fittings.

Only February, and we have a strong contender right out the gate for the best sailboat RU-vid video of 2021. (It's a mark in your favor that you didn't have a thumbnail of a 20-something in a bikini.)

very nice and have a hole there, I would actually have one on each side so it will be aerated

I wouldn't buy a production boat. Ever. I really do struggle with bolt on keels. I have grounded a few times and my well built solid keel took it in its stride. Grounding is a fact of life on a sail boat and I just can not get my head around compromising the integrity of the boats structure. I love the look and finish of these boats but think this is a flaw that needs be addressed.

thank you dude

Install multiple bilge pumps and they can exit into the cockpit. No more holes in hull.

I own a boat in charter in the Mediterranean. There the throughhole fittings last not longer than some 3 - 4 years. The Charter corp. I know change the brass after 3 years to plastic due to the danger of ripping of due to corrosion. When I saw some pictures about your strongback I saw some very different distances between hull and strongback. Seems the boat should be adjusted before lamination work. Electric cables - yes they are a pain .... What's about glue in some tubes (more than one) to put the wires through later. You don't like mold - me either. Well there are this air driers. They work fine where they are but humidity does not force air movement. If you have some Ideas: find some ways to construct an airflow by hoses and ventilators (don't have to have power - just a little bit - to move air through the boat - at best to the dryer. That would help a lot.

If you use Bronze (Copper and Tin) they will be the best choice, but expensine. Brass (Copper and Zinc) even when it says corrosion resistant can suffer from de-zincification, which leaves mainly copper, which work hardens and shears. Sam with Brass props

Why choose between plastic and Brass/Bronze? Why not use stainless for the through hull and ball valve? Would stainless cause some type of reaction or corrosion?

Timing was kind. Boat on hard (and safe) during a year of limited sailing opportunities. (BTW Was it a fractional sailing operation?) Plus an Insurance job to help the ship builder's business through Covid. But I expect their next year's work will be impacted by this year's reduced grounding and other colregs fails.

Did you consider replacing the frame with stainless still like Salona 44? I believe (at least partial replacing) will be faster and stronger, but I'm not an expert, just curious. Wish you all the best with the rebuilding...

You can put epoxy on polyester but not the other way around. You can keep putting layers on epoxy as long as it’s very tacky, but once it’s set it must be sanded and quick wiped with MEK before more epoxy glass can be added. Oils/waxes migrate to the surface and must be addressed before continuing to ensure a strong bond.