Sam Seder Debates Top Libertarian On Healthcare 

I’m a doctor working in the system , this guy has NO idea what he’s taking about. People don’t consume health care like any other service,they have no idea what things cost, they don’t have time to shop THEY JUST WANT TO STAY ALIVE,

This guy: A health care system like in all other industrialized nations can't exist. All other industrialized nations: ...what?

This whole interview was like Sam got to the end of an RPG but he's spent so long grinding and leveling up that the final boss fight just feels like another random encounter out in the grass area.

Yelp for doctors? Has this guy ever been on Yelp? People are really stupid...

the entire fucking point of having doctors is to NOT have to decide which procedure is best for me. thats why the motherfucker has the education he/she does so that he or she can make that decision for me.

“Oooo let’s go shopping for medical treatments! This one looks cool. I think I’m gonna get it!” -Said no one ever

AS A SWEDE I can inform everyone that the system fuckin rocks. When the discussion started poppin up on the other side of the pond I started realizing how well off we are, and how every serious nation should do the same.

Nicholas: "UHC is overrated and inefficient. Lol. Singapore has a better alternative thanks to the free market." Sam: "They have price caps, their system is heavily regulated and the overwhelming majority still trust their public care over the private option. I'm open for that Singapore model. What about you ?" Nicholas: "Now wait a second..."

Sam Seder has the Libertarian nomination in the bag, it’s clear at this point he’s dominating in the polls.

@5:29 YELP FOR DOCTORS?! did he just make a rave dubin argument?

He said it and I'm shocked that he admitted - there is no way to make money out of preexisting conditions. When you make healthcare revolving around making money rather than health then you don't get a decent healthcare system for the mass of the people.

When I'm dying in an ambulance, the last thing I'm thinking about is pulling out my phone and comparison shopping on yelp also how would I do that when I lost all feeling in my arms

Wtf as someone living in the UK, this Nicholas dude is deluded. People go to the hospital to get better, not to shop around.

Libertarianism is just the religious form of capitalism. Preaching to the world that money and the ability to make money is more important than people's lives

Your avg patient does not have the in depth knowledge to determine best practice for a procedure, a point Sam brought up. The consumer interest in medicine is always a bad idea because the uninformed consumer is gullible. The largest fraud in Medicaid system is due to fraud on the provider ( read dr and clinics) not the patients.

Libritarianism : if you solve the problem 100% it's bad, if you solve the problem somewhat is better.

"I never spend other people's money, no one gives me that opportunity" lmao best answer sam

In Canada its illegal to advertise pharmaceuticals. Because drug companies have a conflict of interest when telling me what to put in my body.

"According to Milton Freidman" Aaaaand I stopped listening to this fool.

This guy has absolutely zero knowledge about Singapore healthcare system. I’m from Singapore, in Singapore as long as you work you pay a government insurance premium scheme and you can use it for you or your dependents. It’s not Medicare for all. That’s not the end of the story every medical procedure you do and every hospital stay is capped like maximum hospital stay is capped at $5000 per year and maximum per day is capped at $250. This hardly covers even 50% cost of any major procedures. Singapore also allows employers based private insurance which let you go to expensive private hospitals and these insurance companies normally massively profiteering from young and healthy people also creating a class difference between government insurance and private insurance. I don’t know a single Singaporean who doesn’t complain about their healthcare cost. This is classic misinformation spreading.

Once again for the back of the room: DEAD PEOPLE DON'T WRITE YELP REVIEWS.

Libertarian: Singapore doesn't tax you for healthcare, they mandate you set aside some money into a special account. Everyone else: Should we tell him?

The Cheerios example melts my cerebral cortex...healthcare is not like a trip to Costco

So why should healthcare be a "for profit" enterprise?

As a Canadian, I find this debate a tad rich. We managed to build an effective, working single-payer system, with a tax base one-tenth that of the USA. It ain't perfect, but Canadians don't have to risk bankruptcy over a serious illness or injury.

All governments spend less than the US. That's not unique to Singapore. I get free healthcare in my country. Healthcare isn't like buying cereal. No one goes into hospital or takes drugs because it's free. It's not fun like eating cereal. Not to mention that's not how it works. You need to have a doctor approve things and in a socialised system they don't want to waste money. In private care doctors are more likely to perform unnecessary procedures etc as it's the patients' money and the doctors make money from it.

The entire debate boils down to that part around 10 minutes, when Sarwark says that making a system that works for 80-90% of people is good enough and Seder points out that the 20% who'd be left out are the only ones costing us anything in the first place. And the further they elaborated on that, the more Sarwark engaged the notion that just not providing care for those people was the way to go. Not on a state level...just them not being able to access any care at all, because they wouldn't be able to afford it at a price at which firms could profit. I really wanted Sam to press in on that point, because I'd like to know what Sarwark would expect to happen in that scenario, and whether or not he'd be comfortable with the logical conclusion of 20% of our population dying a miserable death and probably exposing the rest of us to a host of diseases, wreaking havoc on the economy and the social structure of the country, etc. Of course, that's not what would happen...the poorest with unmet needs would die off, and the ones who could pay to leave for a place with better access would and would drain their resources instead of ours. And he'd be fine with that.

Stop. Trying. To. Commodify. Everything. I swear caps would sell their own mothers if it were legal and turn a profit

I pay $150 biweekly for health insurance for me and my wife. And it is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. I would rather give that money to the government plus more for a "Medicare for all" system.

Libertarians think the "honesty box" will work in a free market, because that's what businesses are known for, honesty. /s

Comparing Healthcare to a box of Cheerios is a losing argument.

I'm from Australia, and it's like this in my big dumb country: I pay a levy in my tax each year I have a card with my name on it I go to a dr when I'm sick It is free at service If I want a premium service, I could get a private insurer, but that is a choice. It's not perfect, but at least our insulin won't bankrupt us. Anyone arguing against M4A is Lightspeed stupid or hideously dishonest

Libertarians are the straight to DVD capitalism flicks.

Lasik is still mostly an elective surgery. Not having lasik will not cause health problems in the future.

Let me preface this by saying I acknowledge the problems the VA has had. However, as a veteran that has largely received excellent VA care that has matched or exceeded my experience with private care (in fact I've seen much worse in private hospitals), it really irks me to see libertarians/conservatives knee-jerk dismissal of the hard work put into a by-and-large efficient and reliably run organization that makes a difference. They've heard the worst case scenarios parroted, over and over, by political operatives and talking heads, so much that they seem to believe most veterans covered never even get to see a doctor. It's another example of how conservative propaganda has disconnected them with reality.

In a Libertarian Utopia, all Emergency Rooms have WiFI (not free of course) so that patients can search the definitely-not-gamed reviews about how to best treat their internal bleeding, and whether they should walk to the other hospital 10 miles away because the surgeon on staff right now is only a 3.2 on 5.

You can't just read economics 101, and believe that you know everything, like how all libertarians act. Healthcare can't be compared to the demand for any other normal goods such as groceries, because demand for healthcare is inelastic. So profit maximization in this case does not ensure that people get the best possible service at the least cost.

Oh shit. I better leave that doctor a one star rating before the watch he left in me causes my organs to fail.

I like how he suggests the Singapore system as some kind of Libertarian solution when A. he doesn’t seem to know a single thing about it and B. the Singapore system still has significantly more government management and oversight than what the US healthcare systemhas.

Maybe someone should tell this guy that Healthcare is not a "widget" or product. It's a human right according to rational society. He Admitted this at 13:19 "There's no way to make money on that product!?!?". They do not have a fundamental understanding of basic Economics. "Tax cuts!" have never Worked & economically caused the most crashes/recessions

Things that are paid for through taxes are earned benefits, meaning we paid for it! What a ridiculous strawman to say, "you just want free things."

Fecking hell, I am so grateful we have the NHS in the UK.

Imagine calling the firebrigade & to have the ''freedom'' to negotiate if u like to have water, a ladder & a hose with that, while your house is burning & your family still inside.

he did it, he solved it, he hacked the matrix, he cracked the code. yelp reviews.

He didn't realize Sam was researched on Singapore's economics.

What right libertarians need to understand is that there is no such thing as free market healthcare. And I don't mean "We've never seen free market healthcare implemented". I mean it doesn't exist at a conceptual level. The free market relies on both parties of an exchange working with an equivalent leverage, access to information, and ability to say no to the transaction. It relies on the consumer having the ability to perform a comparison of both price and of quality of product. This does not exist in healthcare. You do not have the ability to walk away from a transaction when a company owns the patent of a medication you need to live. Your cognitive ability to shop for the best ambulance service, the best hospital, and the best doctor in that hospital is severely impaired when you were in a car accident and your femur is sticking out of your chest.

Every Libertarian "Forget all the data and key factors of working models that make my argument completely stupid."

This should be obvious, but laser eye surgery is elective and usually not an urgent thing so you can shop around. You can’t take your time to shop around for the best ambulance service or the best hospital when you are on the ground having a heart attack or when you are unconscious from a concussion.

"But there's no way to _make money_ on that product! All it does is help those unfortunate enough to be unhealthy and poor!" -- Libertarian psychopath, circa 2019

Fun fact: Laser Eye surgery costs less in Nordic countries than in the US.

Sarwark actually suggested checking yelp for reviews on getting a good doctor. He reduced himself down to Rubin with Joe rogan level there. Almost as hilarious but Sam left him off the hook on that one.

Healthcare should be a core function in all countries. It’s the same as the police, fire service, life guard etc.

I really tried to listen,but got lost when he equated health insurance costs/deductible being paid by the insured, to shopping at Costco.

Why do libertarians always prefer Yelp over a certificate that proves strenuous training? This is like the 4th time I heard a libertarian use this argument and it’s goofy.

Debating whether an NHS-style or Singapore-style model of healthcare would work better in Americas is like debating whether you should keep the crust on or cut it off the sandwich in the middle of a mass famine.

Liberatarian, Majority Report, Debate; this gonna be good! *microwaves popcorn* *unzips*

Conscious of cost? One should NOT have to be conscious of cost when it comes to one's health!

Sam nailed him when at the end he clearly told him that they both came to the conclusion that healthcare if applied properly to do what it's intended which is take care of people, therefore cannot exist as a profit based system because it's a contradiction and will always fail. Hence why it must be a a non profit system which because its non profit it cannot be run by the free market which run on the principle of profit first. So by definition we must give that up if we accept to live by libertarian principles (aka the free market can solve it). Therefore libertarianism makes no sence, its like saying I wanna feel more freedom therefore I will cut off both legs, and the rest of us say no thanks I rather stay here and be whole.

Libertarianism is the blue print for oligarchy.

Once in a while I come back to this playlist

take a shot every time the libertarian says “incentives”

Isn't Medicare much better at detecting fraud than private insurers? I think Vox had an article where it took the insurance companies years to look into a case where some people where trying to warn them about.

Laser eye surgery is only subjective to market competition because it's not life saving, and it's benefits have to compete with eyeglasses.

"When you try and create a policy that solves 100% of the potential healthcare problems, the policy will be bad." lmao i can't believe he really said that. you can't make this stuff up.

“Singapore spends less for better outcomes” he says. Well so does the UK and their nationalized healthcare. So does France and their single payer. So does Germany with their tightly regulated companies and heavy subsidies.

I had physical therapy last year... they charge you if you get heat applied to the hurt muscle. They charged me 130 dollars to use a heating pad for 10 minutes. The problem with the hc system is greed imo.

I’ve gotta say, this idea of people being more reckless with other people’s money than their own isn’t very relatable to me. Given the opportunity to spend other people’s money I become far more frugal.

Libertarians want us to rely on yelp reviews when deciding who will keep us alive.

Yelp for doctors. Jesus H... "My doctor misdiagnosed my cancer as a nasty sunburn and now I'm dead. Two stars."

"Ok, so we should have a mandatory amount set off from your earnings into a Health Care Savings account..." So... Like a tax?

"Singapore has less aggressive taxation"... Road tax on a car is typically more than the price of the car

Finally! I’ve been waiting for more libertarian debates on here

That makes no sense, if I'm paying for health insurance I want it to cover everything, otherwise what's the point of paying for it.

This guy won’t acknowledge anything, he just slides from one point to the other. What a joke, he refuses to respond to any pushback with facts, only speculation.

Choosing a healthcare procedure is not the same as choosing cereal. You are sick and the last thing you want to do is comparison shop on my healthcare. So I have a brain injury, I'm supposed to compare who has the better price for MRI? This guy is crazy.

Every time I hear a libertarian speak, I am dismayed by their lack of empathy. They have a strange idea of how a society should function, not as a unit that protects its members but as a selfish, ‘you are on your own’ in times of trouble.

Libertarian: when you mandate insurances to cover all sort of stuff...is bad. Sam: Where does 80% of the cost of healthcare system come from? What percentage of the population? Libertarian: I don’t know that answer.

Saying "top libertarian" is like saying "nicest-smelling turd".

Do you sometimes imagine what an alternate America would look like where we have a Single-Payer Healthcare system like the rest of the world, but we have debates on whether or not we should socialize fire departments? "I just think that it takes away American's freedom to not allow them the choice to barter for if they really need a ladder to put out the fire in their house. I don't have a very tall house and the fact that I would lose money in my taxes to have to pay for a ladder is absurd for me. Furthermore, I don't see why we need to get rid of Extinguisher's Insurance to help pay for Fire Fighters. I love my rates and the copays aren't that bad."

We, in Canada, don’t understand the American’s objections to single payor health care. In the mid tax bracket, for example, I pay 26%of my income in deductions. They include federal & provincial taxes (which includes 100% healthcare), CPP (pension) & UIC (unemployment insurance). So, I make $50,000/year ($4,166/month), my take home is $3,083. A livable amount. My health care includes pre-existing conditions (neo-natal to death), doctor & hospital visits, surgery, therapy, etc. There are no co-pays or deductibles. There is also no paperwork. It does not include elective procedures like face lifts. Private employer or private insurance covers vision, dental, medication and many other medical assistance such physio therapy & chiropractic. Our drug prices are 10% of the US. We receive 1 year parental leave. Figure out what you pay in taxes & health care. Is it comparable? So, my question to all Americans, what do you have to lose?

Let me understand this. If someone is having a heart attack they are supposed to take the time and price shop hospitals, doctors and procedures and outcomes when I’m in the middle of a cardiac crisis?

Doctors don't fight publishing pricing, Nick, administrators and hospital billing departments fight publishing pricing. Don't make doctors the villains here when it's the administrators and insurance executives who are.

Using non essential eye surgeries and shopping for breakfast cereal to explain why not everyone deserves or decides to get life saving surgeries. Libertarians.

13:11 you can just hear gears spinning in this guy’s head through the phone. Do Libertarians just think lobbies that bribe government aren’t a thing? Everything bad thing is the government’s fault and the private industry just TOTALLY wasn’t involved in the corruption in any way.

In our current insurance driven system, patients are not conscious of cost. I took my daughter to the hospital when she got hurt when she was a toddler, and it cost $10,000 to keep her overnight. They literally charged us $100 for every kleenex tissue used while she was in the hospital. And it didn't matter, because the insurance company was paying for it. And even if I wanted to, there was nothing I could do about it. My daughter needed treatment. It's not like they asked me if it was ok for them to open a box of tissue and charge me $100. I had literally no choice. If I had declined treatment, I would have been arrested for negligence in not taking care of my daughter's healthcare needs. This guy's argument about the consumer needing to care about cost makes no sense in the context of our current system. And while over-paying for tissues is a huge problem - do we really want to be concerning ourselves with cost when it comes to the care that we receive? Did he not hear about the guy who recently died because he took a no-name brand of insulin so that he could save money for his wedding? That's the kind of tragedy that happens when you make the consumer of healthcare be concerned about pinching pennies. Life saving medicine is not the place we should be worrying about the cost. The problems that needs to be addressed are 1 - how do we pay for vital healthcare that people cannot afford, and 2 - how do we keep the health insurance industry from fleecing us and charging $100 for a tissue that should cost $0.01, or worse, $1200 a month for insulin that should cost $9. That kind of price gouging on services that are necessary to life is illegal in any civilized society.

Lets just call it what the callers health care plan is really called...... Medical Bills for All

Actually, I think that state provision - as in our NHS in the uk where I am, but I am sure elsewhere - likely DOES impact behaviour. We have the sense that need should be treated, irrespective of income, and that we have a collective sense that everyone belongs to a community that acts together, for each one of us, and not as a mass of atomised individuals who must look out for themselves. It's this our Conservative government is trying to erode.

10:00 half a million bankruptcies every year that's not edge cases mic drop

The guy on the phone really likes the sound of his own voice.

If we did healthcare the libertarian way there would be absolutely zero reason to research any rare disease that doesn't currently have a wealthy victim, what a great community based solution.

Ironically, I gave Libertarian ideology a half a star on Yelp

You should make your own decision. How do I make the decision? Speak to your doctor. So, a doctor recommends the best treatment is X surgery. X surgery is the most expensive, so I should ask what the cheap surgery is, even though it’s not the specific surgery or procedure I need? I’m not a fucking doctor dude. And healthcare shouldn’t be primarily treated like a commodity.

My appendix just burst. Can someone help me shop around for the best and cheapest place to get it cared for?

This gentleman was one of the most skilled Libertarians that Sam has ever debated. It is easy to miss the garbage he was spewing because he is so much better spoken than many Libertarians.

The thing I hate about the lasik argument that ppl rarely pt out is the fact that cheap alternatives exist. Very Rarely if ever do people NEED lasik. Glasses and Contacts exist while this is not the case for many illnesses. Its not like with cancer there is a cheap alternative to Chemo. When you need a heart bypass theres no substitute for that. When you need hip replacement theres not alternative other than downing painkillers to save you from the joint pain. Libertarians always talk about lasik eye surgery but completely ignore that its optional and has tons of cheap substitutes to doing it.

“Doctors will defraud government or insurance companies! So it would be better if they defraud me directly!!!”

Why not just debunk these libertarians by explaining that healthcare services are incredibly demand inelastic, which makes private healthcare insurance a market failure.

Either you think everyone should be entitled to some base level of healthcare, or you believe social Darwinism should determine who lives and who dies.

Did this mofo say you can use Yelp to see which doctors are good doctors lmao

Everyone should just get MD's so that they know how to comparison shop when they get into a car accident and need open-heart surgery. "Don't take me to St. Mary's Memorial Hospital... take me to Holy John's Discount Bone Saw Barn because I'm on a budget"