I like the way the lanyard was taking a bit of the strain there, as you mentioned, allowing for the possibility of using a heavier drawweight bow. Great informative video, thank you.
Thanks Hutch. I have no idea if the original lanyard was used the way I'm using mine, but it isn't a complicated concept. Just a few knots tied in the cords, with one acting as a catch.
hmm the whole lanyard thing is quite interesting do you think this principle would work taking off stress from the thumb knuckle with a ring whare the string sits more on the thumb or only with this style of shelf/ledge ring? i want to try this but i can figure how to tie the lanyard properly anyways great video! i should really try out more different types of ring turkish style looks interesting you seem to have used many different styles which one do you prefer/shoot with most?
I think it's mostly of use just for the ledge/sear type ring. For other rings that are basically just a solid finger tab for the thumb, it could be useful just to prevent the ring slipping off. In fairness though, slippage is mostly an issue with polished polymers and metals. A horn or antler ring is going to have a lot more friction.
interesting thanks for the info! i suppose the pressure on your thumb is different. I have just been making tab style rings from pvc and leaving them a bit rough with a file so i haven't had any problems with slippage but i finally ordered a plastic ring from vermil so i'll see how that one is i'm still waiting. thanks for the video it was as insightful as always!
Great video, thank you! I have huge problems with thumb rings that put a lot of pressure on the nuckle of the thumb, like you describe it in the video. Vermil Victory is like the only one that does not let my thumb swell. Did you find a solution, or is it just a form error?Just out of interest, did your thumb on the shooting hand also got larger with time? Best wishes!
Interesting. I do like the shorter lipped thumb rings though they are a tad bit trickier to get used to. A poor release can be more unforgiving because of the lip pressing into the thumb. I have a side question..I'd like to know - what are your thoughts on the so-called "Penobscot double bow"?
Also sometimes called the Penobscot double bow? I've never owned one, but from what I've read there are serious doubts about its authenticity. The lone source of primary source information on it is a late 19th/early 20th century man who was a notorious showboating con man. books.google.com/books?id=7-9Afcy47XgC&lpg=PA155&dq=penobscot%20bow%20history&pg=PA155#v=onepage&q=penobscot%20bow%20history&f=false
ryddragyn Oops yes I meant Penobscot! Thanks for the source. i.pinimg.com/originals/85/b5/56/85b5569ac937dc67c79c8e090e1da45e.jpg What do you make of the bows in these photos? I can't quite tell if this first one has a reinforcing piece or not. i.pinimg.com/originals/aa/fd/67/aafd677698a786a1c82dcae931195b1e.jpg This one is supposedly of a 19c Penobscot girl but I can't find further provenance. The bow looks similar to the one shown in the book. Might it be the same?
The bows look similar, but yeah, uncertain provenance. Big Thunder is the reputed con man, and the only known source for the bow design. Interestingly, he also claimed the Penobscot were originally users of a thumb draw technique similar to Ishi's. At least according to Seton, who trusted him (perhaps unwisely) as an informant.
Awesome piece of history :) I actually have a question but its a little off-topic. I noticed the bow you are using at 4:30 is exactly the same as one that I was gifted a few weeks ago (mine is #40). I've been trying to find some information about its company and build online but all the writing is in Kanji (I think). Any information on the bow's make would be super helpful!
@@ryddragyn No worries! got me searching in the right direction either way :) Keep up the video output! I'd be proud to put out as much content as you do.
Have you ever used a left-handed riser (with a right-handed grip of course, so most possibly ILF and cut past center window) with thumb draw, I always wonder how a stiff arrow would behave with that much clearance, if you can do a video on it I would be thrilled.
Oh sorry I made a mistake in my comment, I meant an ILF riser designed to be held in the right hand for lefties and since the window would face right, I (a righty) want to put a wooden grip contoured for left hand on it and use it for thumb draw.
How do you go about installing the leather kulak? I've had no success with contact cement and I'm hesitant to try other types of glue for fear of having residue on the ring that is impossible to remove.
We generally recommend users start with the Chinese Spur ring. It sounds "fancy" but really is much easier to use because the spur helps with consistent string positioning.
Oh wow, didn't know you guys were monitoring this channel, nice! Thanks for the rec... I just ordered your ring sizer so once I get my size I'll give that one a try. Do customers comment that the thumbrings can cause wear and tear on the bow strings?
Please sir make more videos of slow mo arrow flights as they come out of the right side of the bow ( for right handed thumb ring shooters ). Maybe try different spine shafts from weakest to the stiffest. It would be even more interesting to see how different spine bare shafts act to the tale end slapping to the bow with and without hand torque/side khatra.. I am watching your videos while working on hand torque/khatra with my SKB Korean bow, bare shaft shooting very close to the target, (3 to 5 yrd). I lost all my shooting skills trying to get the khatra thing.. I know I need lots of practice to be able to shoot like you :)
If it's a bit like the Byzantine/Turkish models from Custom Thumbrings (This Sarmatian one seems even more 'aggressive') then yeah, kinda. I've shot with the Byzantine and Turkish models, you rest the string on a very small ledge or 'edge' and thus you only need a very small movement of the thumb to release. This Sarmatian ring seems to have this even more, so I imagine, together with that lanyard, it'd be a pretty fine release.
Sorry I can't comment on the content, but I gave up watching about 45 seconds into the video. I had to put my computer's volume to max and the same with the youtube volume and could barely hear or understand what was being said. The images and writing were blurry with the writing barely legible or readable. I see that no one else appears to have this problem or is not commenting if they do. I'm actually disappointed that, for me, the video is not viewable as the subject was of interest to me. Oh well, you win some; you lose some. Today, I'm the loser.
Now here’s something you don’t see every day: it’s a replica of a Sarmatian thumb ring (or at least a ring that was reportedly found in a Sarmatian archaeological context, with an estimated date of around the 1st century AD). First, some background. The Sarmatians were an ancient Iranian society that existed in what is now the Ukraine and Russia. Their culture is closely associated with that of the nomadic and warlike Scythians, and as such, the Sarmatians are reputed to have been formidable mounted archers. For example, during his exile near the Black Sea, the Roman poet Ovid described how “greater hordes of Sarmatae and Getae come and go upon their horses...among them there is not one who does not bear quiver and bow, and darts yellow with viper’s gall”. “Here there’s no wealth of books, for my nurture and stimulation; instead, the twang of bowstrings, the rattle of arms.” “Shall I forget my country’s customs, be seduced by indigenous practices, [and] learn to bend a Sarmatian bow?” Pausanius remarked how some Sarmatians apparently used bone arrowheads, possibly due to the scarcity of metal on the steppes. Also, there’s a reference to them lassoing enemies from horseback. The cowboys of the wild wild east. “In place of iron they use bone for their spear-blades and cornel wood for their bows and arrows, with bone points for the arrows. They throw a lasso round any enemy they meet, and then turning round their horses upset the enemy caught in the lasso.” This so-called “Sarmatian” thumb ring was reported in a Ukrainian archaeological journal. It’s what I would call a “sear” ring, in that the string is supported a small lip or ledge, and the majority, if not all, of the pressure is supported by the thumb knuckle. The original ring is made of bronze, and it’s a bit of an oddball. Apart from the thin lip, and the short, aggressively angled tongue, its most noticeable feature is a small ring on the back of the band. Ostensibly, this was used for a very thin lanyard or strap. Given that only one of these rings has ever been found, it’s impossible to say if it was a widespread design, or if this was just a one-off creation made for a single person who was possibly in the habit of losing thumb rings. For the CTR interpretation, I installed a leather kulak, as was used on many rings from later centuries. I have no idea if the original ring was used with an insert. It’s certainly possible to do without them. But they do make things quite a bit more comfortable. I also made a lanyard for it out of black nylon. It worked really well for attaching the ring to my belt for safe keeping. But importantly, I also found that when the lanyard was arranged a certain way around the wrist, it helped to relieve some of the pressure on the thumb knuckle while drawing the bow. This may have played a role in comfortably pulling a heavy draw weight. It also gave a little peace of mind for when my hand got slippery with sweat, ensuring that the ring could never slip off. Interestingly, there are ancient Chinese rings that appear to have also made use of the lanyard concept. Given the widespread nature of the nomadic Iranian cultures, it’s interesting to speculate on what ideas could have journeyed from one end of the steppe highway to another. CTR has made the ring’s lip about the same dimensions as that of their Ottoman, Byzantine, and Turkish models. It’s a good width for my modern bowstrings, and with practice, gives a very clean release. As with the original, the angle of the tongue is extremely aggressive, and as such, this is a slightly tricky, and not very forgiving ring to use. It takes practice to hold the thumb at exactly the right angle, pointed more forwards than sideways. At least for me, with my medium sized hands and short thumbs, this makes it somewhat difficult to get enough of my thumb to the opposite side of the string, where I can support it with the index finger. The shortness of the tongue or tab, may put some people off. At least for me, the tip of the tongue slightly digs into my thumb pad, though I don’t notice it while actually shooting. Some archers might also be afraid that that the tip of their thumb will be struck by the bowstring. But thankfully, I didn’t have that happen to me, and historical manuals seem to indicate that such an injury is a basic form fault, resulting from too much tension in the thumb. I’d say that the CTR Sarmatian ring will probably appeal the most to people who are really interested in historical accuracy and reconstruction, as well as those who are up for a really fun challenge. The lanyard concept is very interesting for how it relieves pressure off the thumb knuckle, and I’m honestly a little surprised the idea isn’t utilized more often. And as with the original, it may be useful for people who are slightly forgetful, and need a good way to prevent their thumb rings from falling through holes in their pockets.
Thank you for the transcript. Your kindness in providing it is appreciated. I have a feeling the problems I had yesterday were internet/server related as I watched the video again today and had no problems with picture quality and, while the volume was low, the diction/clearness of what you said was fine. I'm glad to get the transcript and the video to go with it. A little adversity to get what I hoped for makes it all the more enjoyable. Thumb rings have been an interest for me for 18 years now as they are the standard way to shoot a Korean bow. Two types are used exclusively and I'm fascinated to see what other designs there are and how they work. Thanks again for the informative video and the transcript to go with it. Best and many hits.
I have a male ring from CTR that I'm in the process of figuring out. They do allow for drawing really heavy bows, so I'm a bit curious why the male ring concept isn't commonly seen in other thumb ring cultures. Maybe it was wasn't needed? Or maybe it interfered with handling of other weapons, or other tasks requiring dexterity? Hard to say.
I don’t think your thoughts are off the mark. Invention and innovation are the result of a need for something that works or something better. If you have a working, successful tool, you’re not likely going to make any kind of significant change in its design or replace it with something radically different. One should also consider Korean political history. Korea was a country invaded by a number of other states, not one that waged expansionist wars on others. It tended to keep its military secrets, primarily its bow technology, from others. There is the story, however true or not, that despite being a vassal state to the Chinese, the Choseon Kingdom (the name for Korea from 1392 to 1010) continually fabricated excuses why it could not send to China bowyers to teach the Chinese how to make bows in the manner of Korean ones. In the case of the male thumb ring, those who invaded Korea may not have seen any significant advantage in it. Certainly not the Mongols with their horse archery skills. And this is where your last point makes a lot of sense. A male ring would be more cumbersome in quickly getting arrows out of a quiver on horseback. Korea had two forms of archers: those on horseback and those on foot, the latter more likely to be on the ramparts of a defensive wall. The female ring would be suitable for the horse archers, while the male would not pose any kind of detriment to stationary foot archers. Yet another point is if an archer loses his ring. Lose a male ring and have to shoot with a bare thumb, you're changing your style of release to that of a female ring. Lose a female ring and your style doesn't change using a bare thumb. There is going to be pain that will reduce your usefulness to your side in both cases, but your effectiveness is going to be longer if you're a female ring archer. A small point maybe, but I'm more inclined to think as a significant one should you be using the male ring. When I started Korean archery, I used a male ring for about three months and until, visiting another foreigner at another jeong (club), an archer there took one look at my ring, stopped me from shooting, brought out a female ring blank and proceeded in about 15 minutes to make me a custom female ring. I shot four arrows with it and have never considered going back to the male ring. Shortly, thereafter, I had someone at my jeong mention to me that the male ring shot harder, whatever that meant. I don’t know whether he meant one gets a cleaner or faster release, whether the draw length is/can be a little longer hence more energy stored and a faster arrow, or some other factor. Regardless, I know many really good archers who use one or the other type of ring. There is one, maybe two downsides to the male ring. The pressure points of the ring onto the thumb are the sides of the knuckle in an area of maybe ten square millimetres. This can be very painful, especially if the ring is a poor fitting one. The female ring’s pressure point is over the pad of the thumb, maybe two to three square centimetres, an area far greater than that of the male ring. I know of only one person who found the female ring to be painful. And he was a bit of a crybaby/whiner. The second point is that the male ring, over time, can distort the thumb rather badly around the knuckle. On the other hand, having used a female ring for 18 years, I could show you my two thumbs and you likely would not be able to tell which one is my release thumb. One last point, for whatever it’s worth, which is not really much, I took the liberty to go see what CRT has for a Korean, male ring. The particular one shown is not a common design for Korean rings, or should I say popular with Korean archers using male rings. Mind you, Korean archery has evolved over time. I see that in examples of Korean horn bows from the Choseon Kingdom to the present. An evolution of the thumb ring is also possible. Two things Korean archers like to tinker with are the grips of their bows and their thumb rings. Sorry for the lengthy piece of writing. I get started and ideas just keep popping into my head. While ring related, they are not necessarily on the topic of why the Korean male ring or variations are not found elsewhere. All of your thoughts are valid to my mind. I’ve enjoyed putting together this. Best and many hits.
But to reply seriously: the phrase used in the video describes the Sarmatian territory as being located "in what is NOW [2018] Russia and Ukraine". Present tense. At least as of 2018, those were two distinct nations. No further historical insinuation is made apart from the former Sarmatian nature of the area. There must be a translation error somewhere for you.
