As an addiction worker I'm so appreciative of your discussion. So many people are so biased against people dealing with addictions and lack all compassion and empathy. It's such a devastating disease
as a person w recovering & active addictions & mental illnesses who’s also lived with other long time addicts for a while, i still don’t believe actions can be justified due to diagnoses.
Thank you for doing that work. I’ve struggled with addiction to alcohol and beat it by myself with a good support system. But it is incredible how strong addiction can be.
Agreed! Just in general, I wish people had more compassion and empathy for others. People seem to not realize that they are only 2 steps away from becoming the same. Everyone has the potential to do bad things, everyone has the capability, there’s no exception. Yes, we should absolutely hold people accountable for their actions but we still need to be respectful to everyone, especially when they’re struggling and in a time of need.
Omg once my teacher was doing like a lecture thing about drugs with the entire thing being supposedly neutral. Next thing I know he's talking about drug addicts and says "I would bring one of them here to talk to you but that probably wouldn't be safe" (not sure whether or not he specified a recovered addict but I'm sure he did) and my heart just broke. It's stereotypes like that presenter as if he's not being biased which can really affect people's lives.
@@p1kkuma just @ me next time, maybe? you can feel empathy for someone without totally letting them off the hook. this era of famous & pretty people being let off simply bc they’re pretty or famous needs to end. it’s just like when gabbie hanna had her moment recently and people said “she can’t control herself!” just for her to come out and say it was all an act. empathy & justification are not mutually exclusive.
Its amazing how complex a simple subject like "addiction" is. Pretty much anything is an addiction if you enjoy it enough, so now we have good vs bad addictions
What I don't like is that the medical definition of a lot of disorders has changed under thr DSM-V to reflect the subjective belief of the subject: if they don't think they have a problem, then they...don't.
I think Jordan is onto something with the fact people put more put more blame onto addictions like alcohol and gambling because most people can find themselves doing it without becoming addicted, but I also think those being more common addictions is part of it too. Because more people are gamblers and alcoholics than cocaine addicts, more people have been hurt by alcoholics and gamblers, so scandals like these probably hit closer to home. I think for many people who have given money to/been hurt by people gambling addictions, seeing a public figure scam fans out of thousands of dollars probably sparks a lot of anger from personal trauma
a good point i wanted to mention is that even though gambling offline is more regulated, it's still designed to target people with a predisposition to addiction. it's morally wrong to encourage addiction to make money. online gambling IS entirely unregulated and that's terrible.
I think a lot of people view gambling more as a choice rather than an addiction. Not to say it doesn't start out a choice but there's always pressure to get into things you don't want to do, and even if he started gambling of his own volition, to then having it be something as intense and life-changing as gambling can really mess with someone's head.
Like drugs, there is often a choice at some stage - but it’s the same choice many people make and do not end up with an addiction. They’re never judged for their choice in the way addicted people are, even though they both made the same initial choice
Very into this nuanced discussion of addiction, I don't know anything about this story other than this video but I'm glad you covered it the way you did
I went to a dual dx treatment center for bipolar 1 (actively psychotic and suicidal) + IV drug addiction, and I thought I was the epitome of suffering and "too far gone", but once I met some of the people in there for gambling addiction, I was completely awestruck. I don't think any one manifestation of addiction is objectively "better" or "worse" than any other, but hearing their life stories and how much (and frequently) they gained and subsequently lost- both monetarily, emotionally, and relationship-wise- completely changed the way I look at it. Most of the time, they also had co-occuring substance abuse issues too. It's real shit
The only barrier preventing a lot of other hardcore addicts from pulling off scams just like this is a lack of influence/audience. He should still be held accountable, but that doesn't mean his addiction hasn't been the driving cause of all of this.
@@Notcleverenough Which is a horrible outlook, especially in cases where it's always "well I simply would've handled it". I get consequences but it often feels like "I want them to have something bad" because it makes someone feel better instead of helping victims.
as a person in recovery.. you cannot have empathy for addiction unless you view it as a disease. im like, so impressed with the conversaton yall had... as much as society has progressed... it feels like its constantly been stagnant with addiction, particularly drug addiction (i think this type of addiction is the loudest, gambling is quieter (not easier.. externally, quieter) i didnt even know nick struggled with this... damn. thank you, for your perspective
An illness or addiction can *explain* harmful behavior and poor choices, but it doesn't *excuse* it. You still have to take responsibility for your actions.
Love and really respect the way you guys talk about addiction. For those of us who've gone through it in one way or another, or have intimate experience, it's refreshing to hear a well nuanced take with compassion as well as reality.
amazing video, my dad has struggled with drug and gambling addiction my whole life and gambling was what ended my parents divorce and the drugs came after. Jordan's first take was spot on
I thought people were generally less empathetic to alcoholics as it's more likely they have known an alcoholic in their life & had a bad experience. Having an addiction to alcohol is much more likely than an addiction to heroin. It's also so accessible, something that can affect anybody, from all walks of life. I also think there is severity issue, where people can't notice how bad a problem is, & that it isn't in their control, until it reaches their personal threshold of bad. So they see somone working a job but drinking alcohol, or doing coke as just partying, need to prioritize better or that they just need to stop. Where as someone doing crack living on the street they will see as being in a worse condition & have more empathy, often with the reasoning that they clearly can't control themselves... Missing all the other people unable to control themsleves & suffering too.
oh 100%. i was a functional alcoholic where i was still going to work and doing classes and stuff but the second i wasn’t gonna be driving i was getting drunk. i wasn’t getting blackout but i drank alcohol more than water and couldn’t sleep sober. i operated like that for the better part of two years before i finally had a friend with alcoholics in their family call me out. heavy drinking is so normalized you can be super fucked before you realize you have a problem
As a recovering addict and nurse myself, I appreciate this conversation. There are different addictions but they are all the same. Addiction is a life long disease. It is all the same biologically.. rather it's opiates.. alcohol.. video games or sex. Some addiction are more destructive than others but all affects the reward system in the brain. I like that yall brought up how addiction is looked at from a non-addict perspective. It can be very hard for non-addicts to empathize the struggle of addiction. But in my opinion the most judgemental people are recovering addicts. I've been sober 9 years and have met addicts from all walks of life. One common issue that's not mentioned enough in recover is the judgement from recovering addicts. Almost as if they themselves never suffered from it. The biggest debate in addiction recovery circles is the use of M.A.T (medication assisted treatment). Basically the use of medicine to assist in the recovery process. It's used in combination with therapy. Sometimes people may have to take these medications for years to stabilize themselves. Other times just a few months is needed. It difers patient to patient. There are recovering addicts who say the use of these medications is just switching one addiction to another and that anyone on mat isn't sober/clean. This undermines active and recovering addicts on mat because they are less likely to reach out for help. Withdrawals is the #1 reason why addicts stay in their addiction. Mat helps with withdrawals and cravings. Plus while on mat returning to their addiction drug will cause horrible withdrawal symptoms. As a recovering addict myself with debilitating pain, mat has ABSOLUTELY CHANGED MY LIFE! But people have told me I'm not in recovery because I am still taking medication. This medicine doesn't make me high.. it doesn't affect my judgment and It helps my pain and cravings. So now I can focus on my emotional and mental health since my physical needs have been met. The best way comparison to these snobby people is former smokers. Usually they are more against cigarettes than nonsmokers. They act like they have more rights to tell others to quit. They also insist they any nicotine is wrong. So forget nicotine patches or gums.. plus they have to tell you how they quit cold and whatnot. Speaking of nicotine, mat is similar to medications that help smokers quit. Anyway of you are struggling with ANY addiction, please reach out to someone. There's so many way to connect with someone that wants to help. Take it easy and one step at a times. Have patience and forgiveness for yourself. I wish you all the best!!
That final account hit hard. I have never won anything huge and I've never played with much either, but if I took my $20 to the penny slots and won $40k instead of my biggest win of $40, I could see myself having a lot more faith in winning big again. I don't think about gambling much but a big part of that is proximity, even as an Oklahoman near a lot of casinos. If I participated in gambling on my phone or computer I think I'd be a lot more tempted. It happened to him so fast that's pretty scary.
I dont enjoy being an alcoholic, and i didnt enjoy being a homeless alcoholic off the wagon. Its not something anyone wakes up one day and chooses to throw their perfect good life away
great conversation guys,,, jordan i really felt the bpd experience behind the analogy of unhoused people... idk its probs unrelated im not putting words in ur mouth but i just. idk i hear u man. im glad this controversy is opening up those conversations, i feel like i rarely hear about the impact of harmful actions on the person who did the harmful act. i really appreciate the humanity in acknowledging everyones struggles
@@jijitters oh yeah aaa i was just too tired to go back and timestamp but it was in that like "??? well i dont WANT to be unhoused" and then he went into detail a bit more after yknow
This was a great discussion and very nuanced. Gambling is awful- it is literally designed to leech of of people and be as addictive as possible to our brains :(
Sad Boyz. The podcast we blahdeedah we blahdeedahed but we blahdeedah blah. No but I do love y'all and am glad for all the uploads, it's good for the people. It's a positive force. So thanks.
I feel like "well there are other people with a gambling problem don't go this far" doesn't... Matter? Like sure no one goes to this extent but I don't think that doesn't mean gambling didn't drive them this far. Awful behavior but really sounds like that internalized treatment Jordan was talking about.
People who make bad decisions still need to take personal responsability, even with addictions. There are people with gambling problems who don't scam people, lie to them or steal so much money, he chose to do this. Its avoidable & the existence of others proves that, so it does matter.
Agree that personal responsibility needs to be taken, however, unfortunately those types of behaviors (severe manipulation, lying, gaslighting, etc) are often associated with more fringe and stigmatized mental illnesses, such as NPD, AvPD, and AsPD. Not saying it's right, but I don't know why people think there is just a magical line people cross that takes them from "mentally ill" territory into "just an ass/bad person" territory. Any human being that feels the need to manipulate in order to function is not stable, sound, or healthy, even if they appear to be hella functional or claim they're aware of their actions and choices. You can't be self aware or mentally well and still act like this, especially when stuff like this is not only harmful to others but an act of self-harm. It's literally impossible to make a fully conscious and mindful choice to harm people--it is always traced back to there being warps or blocks in the subconscious; conscious and mindful people CAN'T consciously choose to harm people due to their *ability* to weigh ethical issues involved. Let's all remember that it's a privilege to be clinically psychologically able to feel or experience empathy. Pile on top of that, the fact that every other meme on Instagram is about how awful people with narcissistic personality disorder are, and everybody calling anybody that does something they don't like a "psych0p@th" or "s0c!0p@th," and it makes it pretty hard for these people to get the real help they need, beyond the surface level addiction issues.
@@NotAnotherKuromi you just... Repeated the same talking point and just insist it matters somehow? That's not how that works. You didn't really add anything, effectively going "nuh uh". Missed the point being made by Jordan and myself. Not all addiction is the same, of course not everyone goes this far. It doesn't show that it's "avoidable" at fucking all, it shows people deal with it differently. I do not know how you conclude that, especially about addiction. To say "well this person had didn't do this, clearly that must mean you're a bad person despite the damaging circumstances" is such an awful idea. I'm not against personal responsibility, never implied that. Just saying there's more than "he chose to do this". The added context of seeking unregulated satisfaction is very different to someone who is malicious for the sake of it.
but he’s not wrong in his sentiment. every single comment under this video is completely justifying & excusing everything slicker has done. no one else with any other addiction gets that privilege. he’s famous so he gets a pass?
@@anonymixx8106 empathy actually isn’t a privilege bc the ratio of those without it to those with it does not warrant that so it’s weird that you would even try to state that as fact.
Stuff like this with family members is why I don't loan money, if I have it to give, it's just a gift. That's the only way I can do it anymore. Back when I still had money regularly, and a now ex friend was on hard times, I just gave her the $200 as a gift. I knew she had a habit as well with borrowing, then spending it impulsively, then not being able to pay people back. I gave her partner of the time some money too, in private, as her partner was really frugal and would make sure they had that when an emergency hit.
Gambling hits the exact same spot as alcohol in my brain and because of that I have to stay away from both or I'll ruin my life. Not enough people realize how completely consuming it can be
I feel awful for the guy with the addiction but i wish we heard more about the people who were kind enough to trust him and loan him money. im sure he's struggling greatly but i wanna hear about each fan he stole from and how that loss of money impacted their lives and financial freedom. it's kinda like what you both said about people wanting punitive punishment as opposed to aid for the victims, you can also go too far in making it about gambling and addictions when it will always be about the people who were robbed, not the person that robbed them. if someone gambles away their own money that is where this conversation would apply best.
I don't know if you've checked Twitter about this at all but that is basically where the beans were spilled so you can find many individual firsthand accounts there. As far as creators mentioning those specific accounts, I think many people have avoided that for several reasons including: discussing and promoting unvetted stories which could detract from actual victims' stories, potentially directing people to specific private people's social media to say whatever their heart's desire, and also potentially (further) embarrassing people that were scammed. I think people tried to stick to accounts from people already in the public eye for those reasons as well as the higher dollar amounts & having less individual accounts to detail. Totally get your point about it being about the victims and a fair amount of the coverage I've seen on this has focused on those people, but since those people are being taken care of and something is being done about it, I think a lot of people want to focus on prevention and awareness for what would cause someone to defraud people on that scale or at all for that matter.
yea. i’m kinda sick of the “poor slicker” narrative. i’ve had addictions & mental illnesses that hurt no one but myself but i could never imagine being completely let off the hook for everything i’ve ever done bc i told the internet i have an addiction. these things don’t free you from responsibility. his privilege allows him more access than most of us in this comment section. he has no excuse.
Gambling has destroyed the lives of many down here where casinos are super common. Now with these new sports betting apps becoming legal, I'm terrified for people. Most people don't know anything about gambling and have no idea how it swallows you whole.
i felt like i was losing it when i was talking to my coworkers about how gambling is a bad addiction bc they were all like “what?? but i love gambling!”
9:15 lol this is the least important thing, and I don't believe in the prison system. But sometimes, the people who run Ponzi schemes do go to jail lol. Petters from MN has been in federal prison since 2009. I hope that we can get to a place of restorative justice, where he community impacted is able to heal and that the streamer does too. I agree that the focus should be getting the money back to the people, and since he does not have it...that would be unhelpful. I also believe if he still had that money, he also wouldn't "learn his lesson" because, as you said, gambling is an addiction- a mental health condition that needs treatment.
Former junky here. Don't give anyone money you can't afford to lose, and ppl that are always having shit going wrong and always have some story asking for money are almost always full of shit
does this almost put the onus on the people who got scammed.. you could say old people getting phone scammed should have been more careful, technologically intelligent etc.. but no, obviously if you are scammed you were taken advantage of. you can take certain preventative protections of course but the scammer is always at fault, even if their addiction did it for them. manipulating works for a reason.
@@googleoogle yes ofc people who have been scammed have been manipulated. That is not their fault and they still deserve sympathy. But from my POV, I agree with OP because they are giving the best advice for anyone to help protect themselves from financial harm. You have to know your budget. If you NEED that money, if you will be screwed over if you can’t get that money back, then you should not give away that money. Prepare yourself for the possibility that you might not ever see your money again. So if someone asks you to loan them money, no matter their reason, view it as a gift to that person. You cannot guarantee your money will be returned. If you would be depending on them to repay you on time, then you should not give them any of your money. You need to be okay with the idea of losing that money forever before you give it away to anyone.
Agree that personal responsibility needs to be taken, however, unfortunately those types of behaviors (severe manipulation, lying, gaslighting, etc) are often associated with more fringe and stigmatized mental illnesses, such as NPD, AvPD, and AsPD. Not saying it's right, but I don't know why people think there is just a magical line people cross that takes them from "mentally ill" territory into "just an ass/bad person" territory. Any human being that feels the need to manipulate in order to function is not stable, sound, or healthy, even if they appear to be hella functional or claim they're aware of their actions and choices. You can't be self aware or mentally well and still act like this, especially when stuff like this is not only harmful to others but an act of self-harm. It's literally impossible to make a fully conscious and mindful choice to harm people--it is always traced back to there being warps or blocks in the subconscious; conscious and mindful people CAN'T consciously choose to harm people due to their *ability* to weigh ethical issues involved. Let's all remember that it's a privilege to be clinically psychologically able to feel or experience empathy. Pile on top of that, the fact that every other meme on Instagram is about how awful people with narcissistic personality disorder are, and everybody calling anybody that does something they don't like a "psych0p@th" or "s0c!0p@th," and it makes it pretty hard for these people to get the real help they need, beyond the surface level addiction issues.
i get your point and appreciate your effort to combat misinfo on personality disorders--genuinely--but referring to PDs as "fringe" and associated with those abusive behaviors, or calling empathy a privilege is stigmatizing and not really correct. people with personality disorders aren't more likely to behave abusively. we're more susceptible to addiction because of the fact the majority of us have childhood abuse history combined with stigma and inadequate mental health care. but no personality disorder causes abusive behavior in a higher rate than identical people without them. people with PDs don't do bad things because not having empathy inherently inhibits us from consciously deciding better. most personality disorders are associated with *hyper*empathy. and the idea that empathy makes people kinder or more able to be good contributes to a lot of stigma against people with personality disorders, and makes it easier for abusers to claim they're better. i guess what i'm trying to say is you're on the right track and i appreciate this, but i would be a bit more mindful about your associations regarding empathy and people with personality disorders.
@@soldiaz7261 I didn't refer to PD's as fringe, I referred to *certain highly stigmatized PDs that are associated with a clinical lack of empathy* as fringe in the sense that they are not often included in the community or mental health discourse and are frequently used as scapegoats for other people's unresolved trauma. I have more than one personality disorder and I'm completely aware of all of the things that you're saying, so I feel that there has been a misinterpretation. It's not about people being more likely to behave abusively, it's about certain traits being so stigmatized in everyday life that these people legitimately never get put in the position to access resources that help them develop proper skills. I never said that all personality disorders are characterized by a lack of empathy. I was specifically only talking about certain manifestations of NPD, AvPD, and AsPD. Your response actually kind of proves my point. Those highly stigmatized personality disorders, the ones I just mentioned specifically, are left out of personality disorder discourse-- just because we're so focused on championing people with personality disorders that aren't characterized by lack of empathy, doesn't mean that the people with PDs who legitimately don't have access to empathy deserve to be left behind, under discussed, further stigmatized, erased, diminished, downplayed, etc. Point blank, I in this moment am literally not even allowed to talk about these traits in certain personality disorders without people swooping in and assuming that I'm demonizing/stigmatizing other people with PDs. I do genuinely appreciate your response, the opportunity to clarify, and your effort to make sure to clarify for any readers that also misinterpreted my comment. That being said, I want to be clear that making a comment that was intended to bring visibility to *highly stigmatized personality disorders that are associated with a lack of empathy* about making sure people with other PDs aren't seen as problematic is kinda a part of the mentality I'm having an issue with. People with NPD, AvPD, and AsPD are constantly left out of personality disorder discussions and communities and separated from everyone else within it, because other people with personality disorders don't want to be associated with them and the manifestations of their illness.... It's ableist.
@@anonymixx8106 psychologie, everybody talks alot while understanding nothing. The blind leading the blind. You claimed to be fully aware and self reflected and then you say you have several pds which makes no sense if you were so aware you woudnt struggle with pds. That overly rational alproach pychologie has been trying for the last decades is idiotic, in that time we could have made real progress with plant medecine, but pharma was more interested in making people addicted to heroin, and they are still doing it, creates fentanyl 100x stronger, people are droping dead like flys which they new would happen, straight up massmurder... again. but anyways, you cleary du not understand how powerfull addiction can be, thinking about the consequenes of hurting others, lack of empathy ? Just an ashole. He is ADDICTED, you think he doesnt know the concequenzes or feel bad about it? He is suffering enough, and clearly a victim and the people which kept lending him money hopefully learned a valuable lesson. Never lend out money you cannot affort to loose. They basecly scammed themselves.
Hey guys, love you both, Especially Jarvis. Just some creative tips on a podcast, your camera needs to be a bit further away, not naming names. But most importantly, it should be much longer, atleast an hour. People crave longer viewing without having to search for new things to watch. Great episode, but we all want more per episode.
This isn’t the full podcast this is the clips channel. Here’s the full pod if you want it: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ueVwFWuMcqk.html
Some of these reactions definitely feel like "Support mental illness!! But not /that/ mental illness!!" Like you dont pick the less ugly mental illnesses, its all or nothing. Like everyone with mental illness has to deal with personal accountability. You must always acknowledge the illness and the person who did the harmful actions, and that person should seek to regulate their illness while also making amends for the harm they've caused. Some are too eager to leave the vulnerable behind....
Someone other than HIM should be in charge of the repayments. So yet get they money back but he should not have access until he has his addiction under control.
gambling is a serious and potentially devastating vice or addiction, which is why i find it so weird that one of my sisters hobbies is casual low stakes betting??? she’s never put in more than about £30 of her own money total but she finesses free bet promotions from different sites so she’s made maximum like £40 in a month but has never lost any money so yeah i think she’s a psychopath
do you realize that the music that comes on towards the end sounds like the toilet in the bathroom across the hall is backed up? like a bubbling sounds. lmfao if you change this I won't be mad.
I don’t get why people want him to be punished? Yeah what he did was bad but it’s not a punishable offense. Him being revealed and people learning about it is the “punishment”. I would like everyone to get their money back but it is unlikely. The man needs help and it should be acknowledged. It was a bad choice not an act of malevolence.
Istg if I see another comment talking about how mental illness only explains and not justifies actions I'm gonna scream. As if that was the point at fucking all
