There's a book called The Friendship Cure by Kate Leaver that talks about face-to-face socialising (i.e. over coffee, over dinner) vs. shoulder-to-shoulder socialising (sharing an experience). Y'all are right, there is a gender difference: women more commonly use F2F and men S2S. Ideally you'd get a mix of both. I work in mental health and have found that S2S interactions almost always have stronger benefits for building rapport, discussing difficult topics etc because it removes the literal oppositionality of sitting across from someone, feeling perceived, issues with eye contact, being self-conscious about how you're coming across etc. That's why car chats and walking chats are such good quality!
As a cis-het adult man if you invite me over to dig a ditch you can get some emotionally honest conversation with me. Look deep in my eyes and I’ll seize up and/or be defensive.
Spent a few hours f2f with my son over a dinner in a restaurant and got next to nothing out of him. Sat in the car s2s in the car park afterwards for about an hour and he offloaded so much important info/emotional concerns etc!
My husband and I decided not to have kids and lost all of our friends. No one invites us over because they just ASSUME we hate kids (even though I work with kids 🤣) or WHATEVER their assumptions are... We literally have been trying to make all new friends in our mid-to-late thirties because all of our old friends have kids. Trying to make friends in your mid-to-late thirties sucks! It's been the hardest thing ever!
Please keep inviting your friends with kids when they have them, even f they have to say no for like a year. I have kids and almost none of my friends do and I realized that many of them just assumed I couldn't/wouldn't want to just hang out and do things anymore, and it made adjusting to parenthood even more isolating than it is in general.
This makes so much sense. Me and my best friend only ever hang out by running errands together, shopping, sitting on the couch doing our own thing, etc. It's the only friendship I feel low pressure with and my longest standing friendship by far
I miss living close to my best friends so much. One time I went to my friend's house after work and fell asleep on her couch immediately. I slept there for a couple hours before she had to leave and then we said bye and I went home. It was amazing.
Highly recommend a recent video by Hannah Witton re: motherhood and friendship. She spoke with her two longtime friends, both childless, about their friendship since her having a kid. I thought it was really demystifying about the whole thing, and made me feel a lot calmer about the whole topic.
Have either of you ever read about “internalized male gaze”? A lot of your conversations relate to that concept. Discovering that concept and noticing it as a phenomenon changed my body image nearly immediately and honestly changed my life. Highly highly recommend.
Awww Jess, I felt SO sad when you were talking about your cotillion experience. Also, I love your personality, your gorgeous complexion and hair. Love you both!
Omg I love you both! The view from below is a thought that’s been plaguing me lately and my only comfort is knowing there’s more to look at than just my face, plus guys love what’s happening too much to care 😂
The loneliness/friendship activities part was somewhat relatable. I've been feeling pretty bad lately , like I don't do friendship right. In my case I actually have both types of socializing (I'm a dude so it does hold up, it's easier to congregate for doing activities esp. Playing games) but I feel like i do everything wrong. When I'm playing games I miss the conversation and I feel like I can't concentrate on the game and like I am bringing the team down and also not having good conversation or bringing anything to the table, and when I go for drinks/dinner to catch up I feel like I don't have anything to say or to report bc my life is just so fucking boring, plus unlike some of my friends with I guess "on paper boring lives" I don't have the skills to talk about my boring life in a cool and entertaining way
I relate so hard with the desire to just co-work, fold laundry, or do groceries with a friend. The disconnection between everyday life and friendship is so dystopian. I’ve always struggled with face-to-face socializing. The vast majority of organic, intimate, raw conversations I’ve had in my life have been while driving, laying down, walking, or otherwise not sitting and facing one another.
I just watched a conversation on the RU-vid channel More Hannah between her and two friends talking about how having kids vs. not has affected their friendships. Hannah has one child and her other two friends do not have any. One of them is sure she never wants kids, the second is undecided. They shared that most of their friendships do fizzle when they're friends have kids, but it hasn't with Hannah because she's very intentional about carving sometime to do one-on-one hangouts with her friends OR communicating and asking if it's okay for her to bring her child along for an errand run, etc. They said that the biggest impact on the friendship so far had actually been when the doesn't-want-kids friend moved out of the big city they all met in. I think I'm just kind of convinced that almost all friendships thrive when there is a reason to see each other regularly beyond just "let me plan an event." But there are some friendships that are so valuable and important to be loyal to that even when one of you moves away, life changes etc, both people involved genuinely do just have to be intentional and communicate honestly. I completely understand why it feels very, very unfair to ask a new parent or just a busy parent to carve time out of their schedule for friendship, etc... And it probably feels unfair to ask your child free friends if it's okay to hang out with your kids too because they didn't choose to have children, but it takes a village to raise a child and it takes a village to raise an adult. Even if you have chosen not to have kids, you still live in a society where children exist and you should still be able to at least acknowledge, "Hey, this kid is an important human to my friend, so I want to hang out with them at least a little bit. Not every time but sometimes." That doesn't mean you have to babysit for them, but it does mean that an individual choice to not have kids does not guarantee never having to interact with a child 😂 but it's also true that parents have to learn how to set boundaries for their own sanity and self-care, especially because that teach is their kids that it's okay to do the same as they grow up, so is exhausting as it is to plan all the schedules for your kids etc... Parents also need to be intentional about finding time for their friends if they really want to keep them in their lives. Everyone has different seasons of intentionality, but if there is a friendship that you generally want to last your entire life, you have to make sure you're being reciprocal as possible. I don't have kids and none of my friends have kids either, but I have moved across the country or to a different continent multiple times in my life while still maintaining friendships. But definitely not all friendships. Some people come into your life because you're in a season where you're going to be at the same workplace or the same gym, town etc, and it's okay to lovingly say goodbye and let go when that season ends. No bitterness or resentment just an acceptance that you're both good people but not friendships soulmates. I have one friend that does live on an entirely different continent and we only get to see in person once every 5 years or so, and that is a kind of friendship that feels like we can pick up wherever we left off, but we're still pretty intentional about sending messages at least once a month just to check in on each other. I have other friendships where we do message each other in a chat literally every day or every two days, and we have to be very intentional about planning a meetup once a year. None of us have kids yet, and that is about to change, but I still have a lot of hope that we're going to be intentional about maintaining the friendship because it clearly has mattered to us for 10 years. When our friend has a kid, they are still welcome to join our yearly meetup, and we are eager to adjust plans and include that baby if she doesn't want to/can't leave him with her husband or relatives
Probably most women don't have a great "first time," but weirdly, Queen Victoria was completely smitten with Prince Albert after their wedding night. She hated pregnancy, childbirth and even infants, but found him worth it in the age before birth control
Looking at oneself from underneath angle is being to anxious, too vain of an issue, listen to gorgious Jess! Never looked at my self at that angle until my 50th accidently at the toiletpaper container lid reflection. Just dont go there whenever less flattering...
Caroline where is your shirt from?! The combo is SO GOOD I need to start wearing more strapless shirts over long sleeves, I'm obsessed. The socializing segment was my fav, even if it does make me miss college so badly, ugh.
The wanting to talk about sex in a "sex positive" and therapeutic way... This episode was good. But in terms of the podcast and overall- step away from the subject for a while until you feel genuinely ready and equipped. Porn as we know it was created by a genuine psychopath who's been in jail many times. Carolines 'fantasies' come from the thing that happened within her household as a child and it's obvious from someone who that also happened to. And I've had to turn off many times for that reason. Jess stuck fantasy is clearly directly from not being able to/(struggle with) communicate and feeling free to be overtly overly sexual when she feels like it. It doesn't take much thought. Giving in to this or spreading it as a way through is not "responsible" its just something that more deeply entrenches that women can't be and do what they want and the idea that they love to be submissive etc. A story some psychos made up. That we've been brainwashed by. Does a woman who's truely gotten over the pressures discussed really want that. I think not. Caroline mentioned wanting to be mysterious or putting on a big show. And that's exactly what you are still doing and it was encouraged by the acting world etc. Talking a big mysterious self disrespecting game. Going into the bad thing isn't something you'd do with food. And Jess it isn't something you'd do with drugs etc... You'd find a way to do the most empowering healthy and in control thing. But still not with this one topic..... Its not a good message for the young girls at all. This is coming from a gay woman who thinks you're both extremely attractive and lovable. And who spent a long time pretending to be straight and playing a similar game. Not coming from a puritanical place, but not a BS "sex positive" one either. You're not mysterious I can predict when you will try to be, it's not enticing or exciting it's silly. Time to mature.
Ask questions before commenting if you have no idea!! I was extremely clear so it's also concerning that you have no idea. Openly discussing things that are harming to the psyche eg details of suicidal ideation to an unwilling and unprepared public is extremely irresponsible. Your opinion is basic and expected status quo and also invalid.
It’s extremely damaging for you to assume you know something (or anything) about Jess’ or my personal history or sexual history in any way. Please refrain from making those assumptions publicly. I’m sorry to hear that the content of the podcast doesn’t appeal to you. We understand and respect if it’s not for you 😘
It's not at all extremely damaging. Caroline you heavily heavily implied it in a solo podcast. And with Jess she had literally said that at seperate times in her own words so that's not remotely an assumption... Maybe your not listening is damaging too!? To assume your audience doesn't have two brain cells to knock together may be damaging to you!?? Most of the podcast is for me. And I'll listen to it and do what I want as and when I want treacle 😉 so an implied shuv off right back.
