Space Marines BUFFED - but is it Enough? Which Units are Stronger Now? 

Yup this is very true. Can’t have a starter army be too strong. Learned that lesson in 8th edition with the supplement books during the 2.0 release.

Yeah but your other stuff got cheaper which you needed

​@@BillWDthe problem with the other stuff wasn't just points. Stuff like companions or dw knights or Lion just have bad rules. GW could of course make them crazy under priced. 150pts DW knights , 200pts Lion or 60pts companions. But l doubt they ever will. It is like the problem with custodes, there is limited stuff you can do with bad armies getting extra points. Ad Mecha are so cheap , that they reached (even before this update) the point of quantity , turning in to quality. But the army is boring as hell to play , costs around 2000$ and you need a car to get it to the store. This whole edition feels like some core rules trued out and army rules being writen because of over all update . I have not seen in 9 editions people wishing to not have their rules updated with a codex.

Yeah nice of GW to give the old models a boost before they’re all scrapped 😂 I’m still fielding an early 2000s army

​@@richardseaton6390 what do you mean lol the jump intercessors and terminators are brand new sculpts

@@aidanpeterson1001 Those new ones are Primaris. He's talking about the Tactical Marines or rather Firstborn who might unfortunately get scrapped altogether and what he's getting at is GW making the older ones more viable so you buy them especially since they're "cheaper" and then GW will pull a "Gotcha" and scrap them from the rules so you can't use them after you already spent out. They basically did this in Age of Sigmar with deleting all of the Beastmen and more than half of the Stormcast units only to replace them with new ones that are basically the same thing. And it hurt players there since the Stormcast that were deleted from the rules can't even be used as proxies unless you're with people who don't care nor do they get a "Legends" treatment. The models themselves were young too. Beastmen at least do get to still be used in the Old World.

They should not be priced the same. G-Man is simply better in almost every way. 1 less attack for there strike for 2 more strength. His sweep has 2 more strength, Dev wounds and does 2 damage for 2 less attacks. There actual abilities G-Man is just better. A free battle tactic (Two free ones with a Captain) or a second Oath of Moment target. Not to mention a revive which isn't the best. Lion's only decent one to me is the anti stratagem one but even that's not a guarantee. Even shooting wise it's situation dependent. G-Man got the range and consistency while Lion has an always overcharged Plasma Pistol. Lion's only advantages is Fights First, Deep Strike and a 3+ invul save. If there melee was more even I'd say there of same value but G-Man brings so much value and doesn't have to engage in combat. Lion is only good in a fight and they nerfed that, when they took away the damage 2 sweep and -1 to wound while G-Man got no nerfs. Is the G-Man worth 350? Hell no but he should be more than his brother.

@@PhillipOnTakos Sorry but I solidly disagree. Gman is a glass cannon, sure he has a better offensive profile, he should do carrying the Emperors sword, but the Lion has a way better defensive profile because he has the Emperors shield. 3++ is nearly unheard of, he can cause mortals with his saving throws. His fights first totally mitigates his incoming damage too. Being able to give a 4+++ against mortals to units within 6" is useful. All secrets revealed can be good, giving plus 1 to hit on all units with 6" is pretty bloody good too. Being able to deepstrike a demigod right onto your primary target is massive, it also doesn't stunt your short range weapons any. FYI Gman was nerfed in two ways just not directly, OoM and only being able to modify battle tactics were two nerfs to his force multipliers. As I said he is a glass cannon, he only has 4++ and the Armour of fate can't be relied on. He also has to cross the board to apply any of that damage. If Roboute charges the Lion, high chance Gman is dead before he gets to attack. Even if he does get to attack there is a low chance he kill the Lion in one turn, which says a lot. I'm not saying the Lion is better but they are complimentary. They are better at different things. Roboute better one punch the thing he's aiming at because he can't take a punch back, where as the Lion can brawl a bit. This is why I think they should be the same points.

@@tyhar7493 I still don't see it. Lion also got another nerf when Dev wounds got changed to not be Mortal Wounds and Mortal wounds on there own aren't enough of a threat for me to care that much about his FNP. When Azreal and the Death Wing Terminators/Knights have there 1 time use FNP vs Mortals and Lazarus (Who isn't even good) gives a 3+ FNP vs Mortals and Physic. It feels more like a deterrent to make someone think twice. All secrets revealed isn't a guarantee and might have no effect. Even giving you a CP is kinda useless since you will play Azreal as a DA player. Again it's something to make them think twice but unless it's a low leadership unit of an 8+ I'd still risk it. The odds are in your favour even with a 7+ since it's the most common roll on 2 D6. His 3+ invul is amazing. The +1 to hit melee is nice to buff a strong melee unit or counter a -1 to hit. Fights First is rare enough that he is almost unchargeable but if you're in charge range you can just shoot him or kill his bodyguard unit at range. This is true for Guilliman as well but with him being less focused on just fighting he can hide more often. The Emperors Shield is also inconsistent as hell. A mortal wound on a save of 6? When he has fight first that's only good against something he can't kill in one round or when you're very unlucky. So it's just a feels nice if it happens ability to me. They are not the same value. On top of the overall better characters you have access to for UltraMarines (Aside from Azreal) G-Man still pulls ahead to me. 2 free battle tactic strats when some detachments (Like Firestorm) have amazing battle tactics. Two oath targets can even make first company actually fun to play. Heck even giving +1 OC and leadership rerolls can secure an objective you shouldn't own. Sure neither of those are guaranteed to work but I'd still take it since they're active choices I make, not something that causes my opponent to think twice about, which is what the Lion does with two of three abilities.

@@PhillipOnTakos You cannot make an arguement about the other characters in the Ultramarines line up. We could go down that rabbit hole but frankly Dark Angles have some great characters and you have access to a host of additional units, Ultramarines getting better supporting characters with standard units is the trade off. That's the thing, every unit/faction has trade offs. The Lion is far more survivable, can get into the fray quicker and has a higher damage ceiling than Gman. Roboute has more consistent damage profile, is a better support piece but is likely to fall quickly to any real threat. They are far closer than they are appart. They certainly aren't 50 points different. 5-10 at most. If Gman was 305-310 I would of been happy. Especially when a C'tan can wipe him off the board no issue no reprisal and they are still under 300.

@@tyhar7493 Ok I don't want to argue about other characters because yeah that's another rabbit hole even though I do think none of the DA characters outside of Azrael are better than an UM or generic equivalent but my initial point was Lion and Guilliman were not the same value. I will agree Guilliman shouldn't be 350 and even with the C'Tan nerfs it's still bullshit they are cheaper. Just from a pure loyalist Primarch to Primarch comparison Lion is worse overall. Sure he has aspects that makes him stronger just for putting them into an army Guilliman will be better. I just can't see a world with there current rules that isn't the case. Maybe some edge case niche armies Lion works really well. I'm just speaking as a DA player who has a brother who plays Ultra Marines. In every situation outside of fighting each other Guilliman comes out on top. Even with deep strike it's a good chunk of points off the field in turn one and limits how much you can put in deep strike.

Yep. Eliminators?

@@g-monk2775 Lol they didn't need an increase.

​@@JimH.They needed a rules fix though

Dark Angels and Black Templars Ironstorm are winning plenty of tournaments, so a lot of the nerfs are targeted at that

I honestly think that the Brutalis works best when paired with the Stormraven. Fly it into battle and drop directly into combat.

Surely Chaos won't lose access to it?

@sbeaber it's gw. They do stuff like this all the time

I've been waiting for first born tanks to get a range refresh or vaporization

@@sbeaberI wouldn’t think chaos would but who knows GW isn’t really known for good decisions

Glad I got one last week. Such a cool looking model, even though people tell me it's not a strong list pick.

how's that working for you? I always took Redemptor cuz no transport then charge

​@@rlira0908 the brutalis does well as a disruptive tool for me. Even if it cannot get an immediate engagement, it really forces the opponent to react to it as a threat. Still not sure if it's a viable points investment, but it's damn cool when it all works out for it

Had a captain, tech marine, and 10 hellblasters with a Brutalis dreadnought drop into a bunch of genestealer cultists. One of my best plays yet in tenth

Agreed on the terminators. I’ve got ten with Captain leading them and that’s a 1/4 of my army lol Glad the assault intercessors went down as they die so quick. Also have nice big blob of ten of them lead by a jump Chaplain

Was hoping they would be 160/165. Double a "normal" SM in cost for their stat line would be good. My guess is the same fear that most people have and that is if you buff Codex SM too much, Divergent SM are also buffed. Whilst DA needed that help, BT defo did not. Personally I hope they consolidate the detachments into 3 Codex SM and 3 Divergent choices, but pure Codex SM get more options that can also be better. Oath of moment to re-roll wounds of 1 like the Sternguard focus ability across a non divergent list would be a huge bump that could not impact divergent characters/units (a concept not an actual suggestion)

@@davidring681 Ya the jump intercessors are either a deepstrike unit that can snag an objective, or a pack with a captain can be kinda potent as a kamikaze unit. Alot of mortals, plus 1 to str you are now hitting equal to terminators then use something like 'for the chapter' in gladius for lance and maybe an ap and you are gonna do damage...... just don't expect to survive. Glad that the termi point reductions were applied to the others too. Still it should be a tad lower.

@@ViciousSkittle I'm not entirely sold on the idea that divergent chapters should be locked off from basic SM detachments. but I see why it would work better. You can totally consolidate power into the divergent chapters more effectively, instead of needing to make sure something in DA isn't too strong despite being a normal SM unit. My brother is hurting bad from the DA stuff, but he is super glad Lion got lowered to 300, after his nerfs latch dataslate he had no business being equal to G-man. he is living and dying off first strike and 3+ invul after losing his perma -1 to wound.

​@@ViciousSkittlealmost as if making multiple armies based on one codex creates more problems , then giving factions fewer page of pictures, and instead reprinting the shared units , with some stuff having different rules and/or point costs.

Agreed. 175 is music to my ears

Agreed. I feel like a good 40% of the Space Marines codex needs a cost reduction. I’m hoping that GW is just taking baby steps?

The Aggressors are being punished for the sin of the Fire Discipline Enhancement stacking strongly on Apothecary Biologis with Bolter Aggressors. The cost of that enhancement should have been what was raised.

@@Zayamad I could live with that.

Aggressors are ludicrously overcosted now. More than any terminator with no invulnerable and no teleport.

6 Eradicators are 190 vs 240 for 6 Aggressors. They work very well in the Marneus brick. Highly recommend giving it a try, it seems people are often surprised by how well they work there.

Almost like them dropping granular costing for equipment and per model was... a really fucking stupid idea? HMMMM who coulda thought it, eh? -_-

Yeah I have no clue how they make these decisions

@@peters6345 They look at what people bring and nerf it and whatever isn't selling that they want going, point decrease. If something is truly too powerful, they nerf it some more and if it sucks, they save it for a rainy day when they want to rotate sales. I think at this point, this is literally all they think about.

It feels like they don't know how to do their job, maybe they are just lazy?

​@@Klierowskiyou misapprehend what their job is, their job is to move models according to warehousing constraints, supplier issues and marketing drives. They could randomly change points and it would cause the vast majority of players to just go buy the relevant models doing nothing more but grumbling.

The decreases aren't a problem - these are needed for internal balance and will feel good to anyone with those models. The problem is that there was no need for nerfs at all. Codex space marines are doing so badly that what was needed was to pull more up to the level that their best stuff can reach. Generally though they need an improvement to the faction rule rather than pushing to see whether a 100 marine company can fit into a 2000 point list (answer: now, yes: 6 tactical squads + 2*10 assault intercessors + 2*10 hellblasters = 1600 points; plenty of room for a captain, two lieutenants, company heroes and a little extra).

Don’t use eliminators lol

@@aariuswins He plays Raptors, Not using Eliminators is just wrong for a Raptors army.

@@aariuswins well yea it's becoming quite clear i cant play any of the models i like because they go up in points even though generic space marines WR sucks. guess ill axe 2 units of eliminators and toss in a lancer... cause why bring 4 las snipers if you can bring a fucking las tank for less

Counter argument make them separate again just calhange out oath of moment for (insert fluffy divergent chapter rule here) and make their units costs separate.

They are starting to do that now points went up for my BT lancer with multimelta

"There is one space marine for each of imperial planet...oh way now they are in billions".

Agreed. Infernus marines really needed a points drop. They just can’t compare to normal Intercessors outside of a few very niche situations.

yeah but that means rewriting rules and dropping/upping points is easier on the printer

I'm fine with them having gladius but leave the others for just codex.

I've been doing something similar, but my armiger doesn't get any faction or detachment bonuses and so it gets no support the way a brutalis dread does, so I'm moving away from it for the time being

Warglaive are 50% faster, have an invulnerable save vs ranged, double the OC, cheaper, 12"Melta range that can be utilized coming in from reserves. Str12 melta is kinda neutral with str9 twin linked. You trade sustained hits for melee on the charge for Mortals in the charge and twin linked melee. Certain access to detachment rules/starts is nice, it's been a difficult decision between the two.

Have you tried Battle Drill Recall on a standard landraider. It deletes most things especially with sustain +5 on hunter killer missiles

And to fix this issue they wouldn't even need to revert to the more grainy points system they're trying to steer away from. Just allow one model additions instead of having to jump from min to max unit size.

Yeah as someone making a Dreadnought-heavy list, this is a double edged sword - I can buy more models now 🥳🥲

Ok give the formula or excel drop I want to see your formula

same, drop the raw data/charts

Yeah let’s compare real game balance math to GWs accounting teams balance math

@@aariuswins nobody said you have to you potato. We're doing it for fun for ourselves.

Consider this, a Deathshroud terminator is 40 points. The only WS2+ non-character unit in the game (as far as I know), 2+/4++, best unit rule, insane character rule to attach (Sorcerer in terminator armor), W3, T6, A4. Know what else is 40 points? An Aggressor.

@@JimH. Aggressors have... the same toughness? haha punished for Vanguard crimes.

@@emdeo That's literally it, both T6.

​@@JimH. There is a whole faction of 2+WS units XD

Eliminators went up due to a weird rule interaction

I use stormraven for Firestorm to drop 6x eradicators. Heving amazing results with it. Increased cost evens out with brutalis points drop, luckily..

Unfortunately the points seem to be set based on the best possible competitive use for a unit, not the general case.

DA Ironstorm list uses a couple of DA only units for example. The main complain with these changes is that to nerf that list and every other divergent chapter all codex compliant chapter suffer and in comparison to divergent we dont get any cool unit that would help us balance it out. We just end up nerfed to the ground due to every divergent chapter combo.

@@the_andertech I'd honestly prefer to be locked out of the core detachments and have my Divergent ones be playable.

Guilliman datasheet sucks, he's overpriced as hell and his abilities got nerfed twice, luckily we also got all the codex datasheets nerfed as well so we can all go and buy another faction.

And you absolutely love to see it

The Captain and Apothecary Biologis are still competitively priced as are Eradicators. Aggressors have been point-nerfed twice now and are massively overcosted, being punished for the Calgar/UM/Vanguard trick. Inceptors were over-nerfed for their 3" rule and really need to lose a few points. HI are in a weird place: they're pretty cheap as it is, are very tanky and have decent shooting. But they can't go much cheaper without invalidating regular Intercessors and still suffer greatly from no melee upgrade on the sergeant. Even a power weapon would go a LONG way in that unit.

A solid nerf at that in the only way that a struggling faction was doing okay

...yes, because the things you buff SHOULD be the things less taken, but on the cusp of being good.

I really don’t think the Ironstorm lists took that much of a hit at all. Minor minor “nerfs” but I’d suspect most lists won’t change much. Lowering g points on u derplayed units is supposed to encourage variety. Who knows if it’ll work

@DrakonPhD they aren't on the "cusp of being good"... they are miscellaneous dross, this isn't the Imperial Guard nerf that really only affects one specific janky competitive netdeck style army but overall was actually a buff for the Guard

@@stuartbanana5083 Well the most popular list is a BT ironstorm list. Since Sword Brethren went up by 10, their vehicles went up by 5 each, and the enhancements went up by at least 10. That's where I got my math. Eliminators were nerfed for barely any reason. Tacticals still need to be taken in a 10 man. Why would you invest so many points for what is essentially action monkeys? The Brutalis finally being costed fairly is the only saving grace for this MFM. Vindicator going down id good, but not enough. The Jump assault ints going down is so stupid cause now there is no reason to take regular assault ints. They were already viable and taken all the time. Incursors are irrelevant when infiltrators are just superior in a utility sense. And termies going down was nice but their issue is that they're only really good for meatshields. Their ranged is meh and their melee only works if you get to even attack with them.

Or limiting the u it’s in the codex fairly drastically to make it a real choice. Something similar to the Deathwatch detachment but something that is attached to the chapters and not detachments.

Even something like +x pts per unit / limit on number of units taken from Core lists if you're playing a divergent list.

That would involve making champions of russ usable, and that would mean a complete ground up rewrite. Space wolves have the most fleshed out army of the divergent chapters but the detachment is so terrible it's never used

Adding in generic heros not available to divergent chapters would be better, give the generic marines a spiffy new character that provides the CP farming

Everything here sounds nice on paper, but some fluffy lists, such as the Risen Dark Angels I play, would be deleted from the game, that'd kinda suck.

Same here, my casual Ironstorm list went up about 50 points (and still unplayable Hammerfall Bunker :/ )

Yeah currently unusable need a rework

Because its essentially a death sentence against that unit for no real cost

@@BLUEBOYISLEDGE I get that, but most of the shit in the space marine codex is strength 4-5 anyway. Most of the stuff we get that’s S10 or higher is attached to vehicles of some kind, and a good portion of it is melee. If you’re going to give me a bunch of S4-5 stuff, then I’m really gonna need to re-roll wounds. Everything already hits on 3’s. Yeah, it’s nice, but I don’t need to re-roll hits like I need to re-roll wounds, because I’m usually wounding on 5+’s. Furthermore, even if it is a death sentence to one unit, that means I can only eliminate a maximum of five units with Oath for the whole game. Even the Custodes players I’ve gone against wouldn’t feel threatened by this. Hell, at this point, if people are really threatened by re-rolling hits and wounds, I’d settle for JUST re-rolling wounds.

@@jonathanellis5811 Pre 10th edition reveal: Space Marines get OOM. Reaction: "Zomg that's stupidly OP, SM will never lose a game." 10th edition drops: SM win around 44% of games. Reaction: "OOM still OP, needs nerf." SM Codex drop, OOM nerfed to hit rerolls only: SM win around 42% of games. Reaction: "OOM was still OP, glad it was nerfed." Conclusion: People never bother to let facts get in the way of their narrative.

They literally said at the start of the edition we were getting 4 munitorums a year and 2 dataslates. They only made exceptions at the start because of how wack it was initially.

True tournament grinders don’t complain; they just pivot to the next thing. The complainers are the ones who can’t see the new ideas yet and are mad they lost their old effectiveness

Combi weapon WGTs are really useful against anything that's tougher than T4 4+sv, and a godsend against other terminators. But I could just get a wolf guard squad and librarian for 25pts less

@@greg_mca If i'm running termies it's not for their shooting though i've had some strange success with lethal hits from storm bolters and frags from cyclones vs ctan with oath but ultimately i'm trying to get them into melee and i just don't think they shine like they should (for the cost)