Nah. She just didn't care about the loss of life that's been happening around her probably because the Link itself was infected and dying. So, she was willing to take everything down with her. But that's where she got it wrong. The Link would die, the Jem'Hadaar with no new masters would go into proverbial melt-down (or something to that effect), the Dominion as such would end up collapsing completely. Ships can easily be replaced with replicators, transporters and automation. That's the LEAST of their problem. And while yes, lives would have been lost, every person on those ships knew what they were getting themselves into and knew of the risks. So, while the wounds of the war would linger for a time, eventually, people would recover - and its mostly people on ships would would be in danger of losing their lives - a tiny fraction of the UFP population. Given UFP's overall principles and ideals, there would be plenty of people who would want to join Starfleet. Same applies for the KDF, and other species organisations. Point is, the Dominion ends up crumbling into dust and the Founders cease to exist as we know them.... Dominion crumbles, and then the 'solids' end up winning anyway. She may have thought that she was trying to inflict as much damage as possible, but honestly, its a tiny price to pay, and we know the aliies were willing to go through it if necessary. I'm all for diplomacy, but a bit more interesting comeback would have been even more poignant... and then offering her the cure and a way to save the Link.
@@ChrundleTGreat Watch the scene from M*A*S*H where Hawkeye tells everyone in the OR the difference between war and Hell. He says that war is a lot worse than Hell, because people who are innocent don't go to Hell, but plenty of innocents find themselves in warzones. And if you ask me, he's right. War is war, and Hell is Hell, and of the two, war is a lot worse.
I wish they had chosen to not recycle the occasional space-battle clip in these final battles, I think it would have been better to show less scenes (all new) than have more scenes because of recycled shots mixed in... it kind of cheapened it. The recycled clips were too recognizable.
If they ever remaster DS9 I hope they insist on producing new VFX in place of the recycled footage. I believe the intent was a much larger space battle and to have the beginning of the final battle over Cardassia but the network photon torpedoed their budget for the finale. Still impressive what they were able to do.
@@superzentredi a complete reboot to modern standards would be better cause this kind of story telling doesn't work nowadays you can't throw in a big plot with side missions on the series as they did back in the days, the industry completely changed
@@AgentK-im8ke There are millions of people who CRAVE this kind of story telling to return; it's not for the better that the "industry" has abandoned it.
At the same token, I think she was at the point where she would have done ANYTHING to get Odo to agree to go back and rejoin the Great Link. Even if it meant ending the war against the Alpha Quadrant powers. That above all else has been the Great Link's desire ever since the series began.
That’s not why she surrendered. She surrendered because Odo was ready to return to his people if she ended the war. She always said nothing mattered more than Odo coming home. Not even the entire alpha quadrant.
@@mooncake387 He had nothing at all but the life of a Founder to the Founder is priceless and to be protected at all costs and so why he had nothing his life was worth the whole alpha quadrant to her and the other Founders.
Kira should have told, "In that case we will hunt your kind, we will find the great link, and exterminate you", or "be my guest, your kind is already dead without our help"
My thoughts exactly, infected by an incurable disease, with at least one quarter of the entire galaxy's population out to finish you off for good. I think they got lucky that no-one thought to themself:" If I snuff that ship she and Odo is on I probably will die too, but it will wipe these monsters out for good."
A Star Trek without constant explosions, fist fights and lots of crying?? In 2024, almost unbelievable. I am happy to be a child of the 80s so I could watch Star Trek in its old, full glory.
Excuse me, this was a war. There was a lot of peace and no war in Star Trek. Please do not live on Violence. Never ends well. And this was not in the 1980's, this was in 1990's.
Would have been better if if she said, "The Jem Hadar and the Breen will fight to the last." and then someone said, "Uh, actually the Breen are retreating." They didn't sign up to lose!
They were already straining their budgets at this point, but yes, it would have added so much, especially since the Cardassians would have been champing at the bit to stop the slaughter, and the Romulans would have needed to re-shuffle command due to their flagship being destroyed just in the battle prior.
I was expecting to see some fires on the planet from cities being nuked, the ships don't need to be firing there is plenty of munitions planet side... but at least the casaulties sound correct, the big issue I had with babylon 5 was the humans where basically being slaughtered for 2 years and only suffered 250,000 casaulties, here in a day the Cardassians suffered 800 Million.
It was a prime time TV show, so they couldn't show too much. I'm just glad Ira Steven Behr was able to write the show he wanted to and it was allowed to be as dark as it was. Best Trek show in my opinion.
@davesmith5482 Look at the cost for one season of The Acolyte and it was only 8 episodes. How many episodes was Picard? They can't do even a full season anymore like they did of DS9
What left of it. "O..Oh... Ohhhh you are dead you little weasel" Weyoun is shot. Before he dies weyoun hears Damars ghost say "Overconfidence. Hallmark of the Weyouns".
The whole production crew did incredible with DS9, The Next Generation, Voyager back then. Everything from scene setups to the ship battles. Especially considering the computers then were still slow compared todays.
The Breen were shown to wear refrigeration suits, a metaphor of their cold, ruthless nature. They had a mutual understanding with the Dominion. They were all in -- cold and rigid like an ice cube... or a Borg Cube, undeviating. So the Breen embody the Founder's statement, "You may win this war... but when it is over you will have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your victory will taste as bitter as defeat." In contrast, the shape shifting process is symbolic of melting. So by offering the Female Founder forgiveness Odo symbolically melted away her coldness and opened her heart, which is why she chose to end the war. This is also why Odo returned to the Great Link, to heal his people from long standing wounds they'd internalized. Again symbolic of Star Trek favoring individualism and free choice over collectivism, that one man can make a difference (I'm admittedly channeling Knight Rider with that last statement).
No one does, it was never explained in the show. We just know they hate earth, no reason given. Nor do we know why they waited so long to join the war efforts.
The Jem He'dar would fight on forever and the Breen seem like opportunists that would take advantage of that situation but I don't think they'd actual fight on indefinitely. She was bluffing with what she had I suppose.
Those battleships, like the one that tore the Valiant a new one as well as the Regent's Negh'Var, were hugely over-scaled to make them look extremely threatening. Even so, they're going to munch through Alliance ships whatever size they are rendered. Also, the weapon platforms are interesting - do they have their own internal power source this time? I imagine the Federation already has any remote power source targeted which would make for a rather swift win, but internal power might be a different challenge. I sure as hell wouldn't like being given the job of attacking something that can fling 1,000 torpedoes and some rather deadly disruptors back at me.
That just the Dominion in the Alpha Quadrant. They were cut off from their supply lines and industrial complex in the Gamma Quadrant. It still the entire Aphla powers everything they had to force a surrender. Imagine if they had to continue the fight at the Wornhole or worse if the Dominion just spent 1000 years to expend towards the Alpha Quad.
@@dantruong2582 I suspect once the Federation upgrade it fleet with their current ships, the Dominion wasn't much of a threat. The defiant could handle 3 or 4 herself. something like a sovereign could take on 10 and stand a good chance of winning I imagine. Let alone the prometheus.
@@DutchGuyMike If those reinforcements made it though during the war. The Dominion would would probably win. However the writer decided to pull a deus ex machina. In the Star Trek Online story they just displaced into the future not knowing that the war was over. So not sure what is your point.
The link works both ways and Odo needed her to see what he believed, how he believed it, and most importantly why this all work out for his people, for her to change his mind where words alone wouldn't work.
Would’ve been in line with the mystery of Garak’s character and an amazing deep cut if he had produced a Varon-T disruptor to personally dispatch Weyoun.
Actually it was none. What stays unspoken: Odo sacrificed himself in exchange for peace. He agreed to leave behind the life he chose with Kira and join the Great Link if she agrees to surrender. And coz the founders are racists Odo returning home is a lot more important to them than the war and the whole Alpha Quadrant. A real deus ex machina was the prophets destroying the Dominion armada while crossing the wormhole (literally a deus ex machina, coz the prophets are worshipped as gods by the Bajoran)
@@itsOasus Absolutely. The female Founder said as much to Weyoun on the DS9 Promenade. Was a really superb show. Sadly we will not see the calibre of writing, story arc and character development again imo.
1:02... I kinda like the desaturation of the greens on the Klingon and Romulan warships... having them bright green like in TNG would've felt wrong for the grittiness of DS9...
Garak's killed before on the show and has initiated violence a number of times against Jem'Hadar. He also has killed off-screen as a saboteur and assassin, like most tailors do. However, trying to remember if he's ever openly attacked an unarmed person. A first "this was personal" kill?
Odo dominated that link with her. Throughout all of DS9, the Female Changeling seemed to be the strongest. I can imagine the conversation between these two during the link. He agreed to cure their people, but she's totally submissive when Odo was finished. I love how the Changeling they cast aside, even taking away his powers for a time, became the savior of their entire species. I was so proud of the whole crew here.
My personal belief was that the events of Broken Link were never meant to be an eternal punishment. My feeling is that once enough time had past, the Founders let loose the baby changeling that came into Quark's possession in The Begotten as a form of test to see how he would treat it. And we know what happened after. The Begotten is actually one of my favorite episodes.
I'm not entirely convinced the Federation could have won that battle. Their fleet looked pretty ragged and worn out. The Dominion fleet guarding the planet looked very impressive. Theres a good chance the Dominion could have won.
I just did a quick and dirty estimate, about 120 combined ships and platforms, most worryingly 3-4 of the massive ships of the class that tore apart the Valiant and the possibility they had corrected the platform's energy flaw the federation exposed at Chintoka. I agree it could have gone either way, but I also agree with the Foundress, it would have been bloody AF.
@@jaybee2402 - Personally, I want to believe the Orbital weapon platform's flaw was eventually fixed - especially when the Breen joined the Dominion. So The Federation Alliance only option was to destroy the platforms with brute force. Just smash through. Maybe it required sustained fire from multiple ships working together to destroy a single one? That's why they needed an entire fleet just to destroy just the platforms. Or the alternative is to keep sending ships until the platforms ran out of ammo. Lol. Which is funny and very costly.
Woren out Starfleet had excelisors and reliant class ships on the front line they had no choice better be glad odo was kool but I would have liked to see that battle for cardassia
even if the Federation/Klingon/Romulan/Cardassian armada had managed a draw ...... the Dominion and Breen still lose the war. but, the Alpha Quadrant definitely loses in the long run. ultimately, Odo saved everyone. even those who intentionally created the disease intent on eliminating the Founders.
@@dhinton1 Sure there was. Prevent them from sending forces to the Dominion, retaliate for the attack on Earth and make sure they don't do it again. Destroy their ability to wage war as well.
@@tomb7942the problem is that they had no intelligence on the breen. They had no information about their territory, their defenses, their fleet positions, the number of ships they had left, or even how quickly they could replenish the loses they suffered in the war. The federation and klingon fleets were heavily depleted. It was probably all they could do for quite some time to deploy enough ships to protect their own borders let alone launch any offensive operations. The romulans might have had enough resources but they were afraid of the breen.
@@ryanarment5393 And doesn't all that seem odd? A not small empire on the Federation border that they know nothing about? But regardless, the Breen killed how many people in their attack on Earth? Why not divert forces against the Breen as soon as you are making headway against the Cardassians and have the wormhole secure? This would at least force the Dominion to divert forces to another front. The rest of your comment regarding available forces makes sense only in the ST universe which of course what we are dealing with. In real life, the Federation would outclass every other power combined simply by virtue of their size. Tens of trillions of people create a very large economy and scientific base with unlimited natural resources. Star Fleet should have had at least 250k ships during peace time, with secret bases and shipyards, especially after the Borg showed up. But lets not get bogged down with the lack of continuity, because that is Star Trek's claim to fame.
@@davidnihil_ @0:48 - center right. Jem'Hadar cruiser should be under the Battleship. The Cruisers are massive on their own but going over the Battleship makes it look tiny.
Garrick and Kira break into their command center…. It seems like it takes five people to fight their way all the way to the founder…… but she would think that her room would have some shields or some better weaponry or there’d be seven or eight Jem Hadar in there cloaked prepared to shoot them in the back when they came through the door
Imagine next Star Trek show about postDominion world...Alpha quadrant forces is still recovering...new alliance forming...Dominion in a state of chaos since their reputation as invincible force is shattered...Cardassia under Federation protection...Voyager is back home....Federation inspite heavy losses is expanding rapidly since it proove it can emerge victorious in hard conditions...Klingon empire still not stabile..Romulans too but glimpses of brighter future can be seen...Alpha quadrant is exhausted but Alliance between Federation-Klingon-Romulans in war prooved that peace and prosperity in our part of galaxy could be achieved.
The problem with the " victory is bitter as defeat is , who become subservient to the other who will write the history of the war after it is over that is the difference
And this everyone, is why modern Trek has died. This showed the best of Trek, that in adversity, the ideals of the federation always prevail, that forgiveness trumps hatred.
@@Vector_Ze what on earth does trump have to do with this? It's the adem voting story writers, producers and directors who created this mess. This is from a Brit.
@@Vector_Ze I have no idea how that comparison works really, the subject in this context is the abstract philosophy of the United Federation of planets, which i would propose was an optimistic utopian society, so given the subject and definition, my issue is that the series after Enterprise all moved away from that view of the subject and replaced it with a new paradigm, which was that of corruption and conflict. I really don't Abrams' behaviour as the issue but the content he produces, which in all fairness is garbage to me, sure maybe a younger audience loves this cr@p but not me.
I find it strange that the Romans and Cardassians were to attack the Dominion, while the Klingon take the Breens and Federation take on the orbital platforms. The Romans lost their flagship and took heavy loses in the previous engagement and the Cardassians don't seem to be powerful enough. This combo is just canon fadder for the Dominion.
One thing that never made sense to me. The Dominion proper, is in the Gamma Quadrant. It would have been untouched by the war. Their industrial base, shipyards, weapon plants, and cloning plants..... All of it, still in working order, all of it presumably operating at peak efficiency for the whole war. So technically, The Dominion wasnt defeated Yet, that's never addressed ?
It was addressed. Prior to Starfleet mining the entrance to the wormhole to prevent reinforcements coming from the gamma quadrant. Starfleet manage to infect the dominion with the same disease that the female founder was suffering from. Eventually, all of the founders would have died everywhere if Otto had not cured them. The way the dominion was structured. It is doubtful that it could’ve continued with the loss of the founders. The dominion Empire would’ve eventually collapsed with the loss of its leadership
It's kind of messed up they had the Romulans, who just lost their flagship, and the Cardassians who took the worst brunt of casualties of anyone in the war, to deal with the Jem'hadar who are the most numerous of the defenses.
Did the Dominion win? I mean they left the Alpha Quadrant in ruins. Klingons, Cardassians and Federation were broken by war. The Romulans were best off but had learned to keep out of Gamma Quadrant. If the Dominion’s goal was to keep the Gamma Quadrant secure from outside influence they kinda achieved their goal.
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What is such a scream is the sheer proximity of thousands of ships in a small area of space! Do they not know of physics and gravitational attraction between bodies!
The gravitational attraction between even thousands of objects as small as spaceships would be negligible (due to their relatively small mass and because the gravitational attraction decreases with the square of the distance between ships) and easily overpowered by their engines.
I don't think any Sovereign class ships were ready yet besides Enterprise E, and Enterprise E was leading an attack force to liberate Betazed at that time this was happening
@JTB198819962006 has there been any confirmation that Picard liberating Betazed wasn't canon? Cause nothing about Betazed after it's fall was ever mentioned in the TV series
This was such a disappointing ending. Huge build up for a massive action scene, most of it was just reused footage from previous episodes and it all gets wrapped up by a completely senseless surrender.
Maybe it felt anticlimactic but also inevitable. Star Trek is all about finding solutions instead of solving problems with brute strength. There are big space battles that happen from time to time. One happened earlier this season. No major war in any Star Trek show was won by simply killing all of the enemies.
