+Timothy Bozyk It's the only thing that's really worked in the box office for DC. When they look at their own box office numbers, that gritty feel is what they see working. When they look at Marvel's, bringing lots of heroes together is what they see working. That's what leads to the big mess that Man of Steel is and the next movie will be, people trying to make films "like" something successful rather than making objectively good films.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I've been saying this to people for years. What is wrong with the red underwear? What is wrong with Superman being invulnerable to bullets? What's wrong with him being a boycott? That's like complaining that Sherlock Holmes' hat is stupid and that he's too good at solving mysteries. THAT'S THE CHARACTER! He's a symbol of hope (I mean even his literal symbol means hope). Brining up Aquaman for a quick second for those of you who haven't read Geoff Johns run on the character his version is in a world where everyone is perfectly aware of the super friends version of the character with even the police and bank robbers mocking him for having lame powers and for being no one's favourite superhero. Instead of Geoff Johns trying to prove to us that he's cool by changing the character entirely (like they tried to do in the 1990s) he just said Aquaman is cool as he is and embraces his cheesiness. Instead of worrying about how to fix Aquaman and make him cool he just makes Aquaman do cool stuff the way he is. In conclusion unless you have something new and interesting to do with the character (like Tim Burton did in 1989) don't change them just for the reason of appealing to a new audience. If you make good stories people will want to watch/read them.
+ZR Lego Dude 777 Well in a meta sense the character has always been a symbol of hope at his core, even if it wasn't explicitly said. He was created by two Jewish kids in 1938 and he beat up bad guys who were trying to take over the world, often literal nazis. Doesn't get much more hopeful than that.
If you seriously dont see what wrong with a big muscular guy wearing fucking underwear outside his already ridiculous skin tight caped suit then you have a major problem. It is fucking gay and looks lame. Supes suit in MoS and BvS is arguably the best redesign/ suit I've ever seen in any comic book movie( The other person that i can say has the best costume is Wonder Woman)
"I hope that Dawn of Justice finally shows them grasping their own material, being proud of it, and actually trying to make a good movie out of it." If only....
How do you know that name?! But seriously tho i never realized that before. Thank god marvel focuses on character driven plotpoints and not bullshit coincidences
I never thought of that before! Lol. But yeah, Marvel Studios knows what to do with their films. DC and WB have no idea on how to handle the films. And no, I have no bias. I love both Marvel and DC. The whole "Pick one or the other" mentality is stupid.
Heja wolf 0602 (I know this was 6 months ago but I have to get this off of my chest) And I am so tired of hearing saying that current D.C. Movies are better Marvel films because it is quote "Darker" and marvel movies are "campy" oh sod off, just because it appeals to younger audiences does not mean it is a better movie
Great video, Sam. I thought that I was the only one who thought that Superman is perpetually being bastardized just to tap into the Batman crowd. I really wanted the sequel to flesh out the character and justify its pandering to the Batman-biased audience, but it seems like WB just gave up and just put Batman in there anyway. "Hey, guys, should we actually adapt a compelling Superman story from one of the comics so that fans could get the modern movie they always wanted and change any nonbelievers' minds?" "Nah, let's just put Batman in it and make him the good guy. Fans will love that." Now Snyder and WB are going to keep perpetuating that Superman will never be compelling as a boy scout and Batman is still cooler in every way possible. If Marvel can make their boy scout compelling while staying true to its own source material and keeping an audience, then so can DC.
Very insightful. It's becoming increasingly clear that the new DC universe is too often trying to tap into the success of Nolan's Batman or the Marvel films without understanding why those were successful. People didn't just love the Dark Knight because it was aesthetically darker and more morally ambiguous; it had a good story and well-developed characters. People didn't just love Avengers because it threw together lots of well-known heroes; they actually succeeded in making it fun. Seems that Snyder skims the surface of other successful superhero films and replicates that, leaving us with movies that are neither fun nor substantive.
Really loved this video! So glad to finally find someone else who shares my opinion that Man of Steel was nothing more than made-by-committee trite designed to pander to people who didn't connect with the source material.
I guess I can understand why filmmakers always tend to get the character of Superman wrong. Like you said Sam, they try to appeal to a bigger demographic. However, trying to make a character cool comes with the risk of ruining their character. I am a big Superman fan and while sadly I did not like "Man of Steel," at least the film tried to go for a "am i doing the right thing" type of story (though you are right, they should have made it work instead of it being just a checklist to put in the movie). Yea I do wish that the filmmakers had done a better job at making the film (remember my opinion I know some people like the movie), one thing I can agree about the movie is the focus of Superman questioning his actions was the right step to take. To quote from Wiz (Death Battle), Superman's story is not about surpassing limits, "but whether or not he is doing the right thing." That is something the filmmakers must always remember about Superman. I sure do hope that "Dawn of Justice" tries to step away from the "checklist" side of things and actually care about "what made the hero's who they are" work in the film. Hopefully the filmmakers have learned from their previous attempt, but only watching film will tell us. Anyway thanks for your thoughts on the subject Sam. Can not wait to see the review for "Dawn of Justice." Keep up the good work!
Nice commentary on Superman Lives Sam. I actually heard a lot of stuff about the documentary so know that i have your insight to it....i'll check it out soon. Plus, I've been a subscriber since 2014 and i'm sure as hell am glad i saw your channel when i had the chance and you NEVER EVER sell out. Like RedLetterMedia & YourMovieSucks, you aren't necessarily the messiah of movie reviewing but holy crap do you all not only know your shit, but your cautiously optimistic, cynically brilliant, and can make some damn funny humor. Hope the channel does well my friend and i'm DEFINITELY going to see your thoughts on BVS soon. Cheers! :)
Amazing analysis. You've just earned a subscription. :) I think Zack Snyder's quote when he'd made Watchman on Superman best sums up your argument. This where he found Superman quote "boring". This baffles me how he even got the job in the first place directing MOS. And while I'm mixed about the movie, it is very clear(especially now with BVS. UC is better but not much) that Snyder never cared about Superman. Yes, BVS does a lot to improve Superman, but really it isn't what I'd call Superman. Captain America to me is what I felt like Superman should be in how good he is. And I'll be the first guy to admit I never really liked Captain America. I saw him as Superman light, though I understand why he was important. And the MCU made me like him with Cap WS. MOS I honestly do not know this Superman. I really do not. The UC does a better job, but really MOS 2 should have happened BEOFRE BVS. That way, Superman's character arc could have been better fleshed out and that way all the stuff on Batman could have been justified.
Funny since the Russo Brothers didn't exactly care for Cap when they were kids, and when given the chance to direct a Cap movie, they took the character to new heights. If that isn't respect, I have no idea what is. MOS and BvS on the other hand feel like two giant middle fingers to anyone who liked Superman and what he stood for.
Hub Pie Yeah, pretty much with you on Snyder with BVS and MOS. I don't hate MOS as much as everyone. But the comic it was inspired was much better. Snyder, much as I like him, is style over substance and it shows. Yeah, there will be fans of the DCEU. And cool. But really, given how these movies have failed to click with general audiences this is going to be WB biggest test. If WW sucks, then the DCEU will probably be dead in the water. The ONLY reason why JL is being directed by Snyder is due to crappy planning.
A genuinely cool person is one who doesn't give two fucks what people think of him. These pictures of Superman with a dark, gritty look don't communicate that at all.
Literally watched this while editing my Man of Steel revisited video. I still like MoS, but all your complaints are valid. I guess my opinion on the movie is very mixed.
Currently at 34% on rotten tomatoes :b Yeah, I can totally see "b-but, critics are mean! Th-they don't understand! ;.;", being the excuse given. EDIT: Seems I'm right. Apparently critics are totally wrong to go about critiquing a movie, which is what they've gone to school for and are paid to do. What they should be doing is making up excuses for terrible decisions and blame other critics for being marvel-fans. Oh, they should also go on imdb and relentlessly upvote it as well.
This movie killed my respect for IMDb. I saw the insanely positive reviews soaring in and I went and saw the film, and I had an epiphany. Zack Snyder and Ben Affleck were right. People ARE too dumb to understand BvS. Too dumb to understand how fucking insulting and lacking the film is.
+M Phylo IMDb has and always will be a representation of the dumb masses and lowest common denominator. I've been on since 2005 mostly just watching people argue over pointless shit, and it's _always_ been like that. "This dumb movie has 'heavy' sounding dialog, it must be smart!"
That's why i can't stand these Hollywood studios, "Lets Revamp, Revamp, REVAMP"!!! These studios mind as well create their own original superhero characters.
Zack Snyder is the main problem. Then the script. Man of Steel or BvS, doesn't matter. Applies to both. I think you're going to tear BvS apart. And I look forward to it.
+sanshoryu Zack Snyder is the worst possible director imo. he focuses far too much on bombastic action scenes, without thinking about the characters in anything other than a visual aspect. I genuinely think that if you throw £200 million at me, I'd be able to make at least a decent justice league film.
The MCU is also vastly different from its comics counterpart, but still written enjoyably on some level. For example, I don't mind that they changed Hank Pym and Janet van Dyne into WWII superheroes so much as I do the fact that they were excluded as founding Avengers (it was Janet who gave the group, and Vision, the name), to be replaced by Hawkeye and Black Widow because they were easier to film. But I still enjoyed watching _Ant-Man_. More so than _Avengers 2_, actually, especially given how much less powerful they made Ultron (also originally made by Dr. Pym). But still enjoyable. _Fant4stic_ is another movie that gets it wrong mostly due to the direction it tried to take: The movie took itself _so_ damned seriously, especially the science. The staff clearly forgot that at its roots, _Fantastic Four_ is a fun, light comic book, and that because of that, the FF themselves are Marvel's First Family. The movie tried to 'science' so hard, it tried to turn itself into _Batman Begins_. And turned Doctor Doom into... Doom? I dunno. He was weakened so much more than Disney did to Ultron, though. The movie was just... _bad_. There's no adequate word for it. My worst cinematic experience thusfar? _Strange Magic_, the movie that Disney didn't put their name on, but George Lucas did. It has _no_ redeeming qualities at all. But don't worry: I watched a copy from my library, so I only spent time on it. Time I'll never get back. Avoid at _all_ costs.
This is why I like your stuff. When you dislike the movie you can actually be able to explain and point out the reasons why where most people would just say "Oh this movie sucked because it sucked." No matter how anybody can try to disagree with you then you have a points to counter your statement. Keed on doing good job. BTW Batman v Super is around 36-41% on rotten tomatoes. so far.
+Matthew Burton He used to be Barbara Streisand's roommate/hairdresser! See "An Evening with Kevin Smith" to get the 411 on Jon "I'm an arrogant, self-important asshole" Peters! Kevin NAILS him!
(Spoilers for people who have´t already read or seen this movie) I will see the movie in a couple of weeks but I choose to go to reviews to hear some stuff, then I wanted to know more and more beacause my worries started to raise and what I know now happens in the movie, barely anything from Man of Steel was resolved or followed up to at all as I thought. #1 Superman killing Zod: Let´s not kid ourself what could Superman have done to stop him? Go into the sun? Maybe, kind of epic but simple. Anyway I thought that was there to be the reason Superman whould never kill again and always go for the better way. With the trailers having him saying - "If I wanted to you whould be dead already." Made me think that was part of him never wanting to kill again but what do I hear? He kills a guy for trying to kill Lois, and Batman kills with guns common criminals. Okay guess we won´t get a Joker for long if Batam kills. 2# Secret identity: Okay I don´t know yet if Lois knows or not but it sounds like no one knows and I thought they wanted to get away from that. I actually thought they whould joke about it like some new guy comes to the planet and he says - Oh that´s the alien! And some else says - Yeah and what can you do about it? Like they know it is him but sure what can they do? And worse Lex makes a hostage situation - Fight or I tell. WOW REALLY! Dark and serious universe goes for the most simple thing ever! Ten ofcourse taking away any light or hope Clark Kent could have, killing Jimmy. I can´t belive I am hurt over this but wow. It´s like if they made Spiderman and Uncle Ben was hit by a bus when he wanted to say hey to Peter and he looks back just as when the bus hit´s him. That whould look like a joke.
+Brett Putman Fuck. I didn't like Man of Steel, so if what I've heard with Batman v Superman is really that bad, then I'm glad I'm holding off on seeing it.
+Brett Putman I liked it compared to Man of Steel. There are some amazing parts and the rest is crap. Yes it is a bad movie that is still worth seeing once.
Here's some interesting bit of trivia? Originally Star is Born was going to have Elvis Presley to be the romantic lead to Barbra Streisand, that would have been 1976 when Elvis was big on his come back tour. But Elvis manager turned the part down only because Barbra's boyfriend/producer was a "Hair dresser." That man was John Peters, he ruined a chance to bring two of the biggest names in music back in 1979 and it bring a lot subtext about his comment you just quoted him on.
+crithon John Peters is a dumb asshole with a lot of luck, no more no less. Another rich idiot who thinks that because he has money he can have creative control over movies, just because movie studios are cheap and greedy whores.
+Alex Rus in deed.... he lost the opportunity to bring in the two biggest singing legends in 1976 because someone else thought he was "feminine job compared to other men at the time".... and now he is this whole "I'm so macho I bet up guys every day for the rest of my life." this man is mentally insane on so many levels. Elvis and Streisand 2 different generations together on the screen and he messed that up, just let that sing in.
crithon Well, he always made stupid decisions like that. That fucker must have a lot of money if wb still listens to him and all the shit that goes out of his mought.
crithon I know, i've seen an evening with kevin smith a couple of times. It's so hard to understand how wb gave him so much creative control over superman lives seeing that acording to kevin his ideas for superman were ludacris and nobody seem to like them at wb. Fucking money ruins everything.
I enjoyed the video and somethings you are right about the 90's Superman but I totally disagree about Man Of Steel. That's what makes this world great different opinions. Keep up the good work.
Sam this is brilliantly well said, Very well said, thank you thank you thank you. I'm anxious and can't wait to hear your thoughts on the B vs S film. very insightful, well said Sam.
I just realized that not only the producer stayed, but apparently the concepts for the suit. the fact that this was stemmed from a 90s mentality explains almost everything.
I will correct you and say that Peters only had Executive Producer credit on Man Of Steel. And that's usually a title that means nothing really. Peter's was minimally involved in Man Of Steel.
I'm gonna admit, I've never really been a huge fan of Superman's suit in MoS. Going back to video games and Twilight Princess specifically again, I love the realistic look and tone of that game (especially now with it's much cleaner HD re-release), but I hate how the developers of the latest (at the time) installment of Super Smash Bros. decided to force said look on every character in Brawl, giving them more realistic appearances despite the game being mostly consisted of cartoony and campy characters. Thankfully, the newest game alleviates that issue with a much more beautiful and light hearted artstyle that has detail. But back to Superman, not to be off focus, I didn't like how you could barely even tell the suit was blue and red in the film, and red undies or not, it's still Superman. It's just a nitpick I always had with it though, as a whole I wasn't a huge fan of the film for pretty much the same reasons as you, Sam. Sorry for the rant though :P
+Leopold Litchenstein (SpongeBobfan1.5) I never understood this mentality that "darker colors" = "Realistic". It's like these people have NEVER stepped outside in their lives. If they wanted Superman to look less silly, then I have to say that it backfired, because this is the absolute most ridiculous design I have ever seen on Superman. Shadow the Hedgehog riding a motorcycle while carrying a gun has NOTHING on Superman with dark primary colors!
Lugbzurg It's definitely a dumb mentality in all honesty, but the thing is that it's based solely on appearance as opposed to concept and thought process. If you can find a way to mix them then that's fine, but thinking you're "realistic" or "edgy" just because you have a bleaker color palette is really dumb. (i.e. Shadow's game.) When I say realistic look for Twilight Princess specifically I mainly mean in terms of the backgrounds and locations as well as the execution of the story it was telling as it definitely stayed true to it's guns about the balance of light and dark and several other concepts, but then giving that entire look to Brawl just made that game look blander by comparison, especially when it comes to a party fighting game compared to the other installments. In terms of Man of Steel, I feel as if the whole Nolan Dark Knight trilogy thing felt forced onto it and the whole of the DC extended universe. In lament's terms, people see movies in terms of what they see much like most people judge others based only on their outward appearance.
Hello Sam, as someone who has defended Man of Steel for three years and might have the rug violently torn from beneath me with the reception to Batman v Superman, I thought I'd chip in one last time, to offer a defense for Clark Kent/Superman in MOS. There is a sentiment that Superman is dragged down into the morass rather than allowed to rise above the failings and weaknesses of people and society in MOS. Some might say Superman in this film is a darker character, but I don’t feel that’s true. The trucker harasses a girl incessantly, Clark calmly asks him to leave only to be ridiculed in front of the bar and trying to pick a fight despite Clark's tranquillity, and then throws a can to top it all off. After this humiliating display, Clark gives into a very inhuman act and wrecks the guy’s truck, rather than give into anger and accidentally kill the man. It’s not the nice thing or the heroic thing to do, but it’s a very human thing. A brute or bully with Clark's powers would have killed the man out of selfishness, and that's not who Clark is. As a man who was bullied nonstop as a child and teen, he still saved Pete Ross’s life, so it’s not like he has no value for human life. Before he even puts on the suit he already uses his powers to help people. When it came to having to finally stop Zod, Supes was clearly shaken and distraught by having to kill the last living member of his race. Zod was bent on comitting planet-wide genocide to recreate Krypton, and there was no prison on Earth that could hold him. Not killing him and allowing him to go on with his killing spree, in my opinion, would have been worse. While I object to the tonal dissonance of the following scene as well, I do not agree that Zod could have been kept alive. I also find the notion that Superman was responsible for the wholesale destruction of Metropolis almost counterfactual. I've poured over the film several times, and apart from his reckless fight in Smallville, Superman doesn't actually commit any amount of property damage that is comparable to the damage done by Zod's ship. I'm not saying you have to like this Superman or the DCEU, and I certainly believe that a more optimistic and tonally accurate Superman on film can and should be achieved today (ideally without rebooting the universe again), these are just my thoughts on the matter.
If "'Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice" is the worst-titled superhero film in recent memory, "The Death of 'Superman Lives': What Happened?" has to be the worst-titled superhero documentary.
Seeing as the early reviews of Batman v Superman are soul-crushing to say the least, I think DC/Warner Bros need to embrace the source material of the other heroes, rather than just making them like Batman. Just look at how Marvel's doing because they respect the source material.
6:51-6:54 Hey man don't knock on Ben Reilly! Yeah the Clone Saga sucked but he was one of the few things that didn't suck. And also it's 2016. Can we please let Batman and Robin go now? Shoemocker's career is for all intents and purposes done. The horse is dead gentlemen, just put it into the ground. At any rate this was a good video and I agree with a lot of what you've said Sam. Also a neat bit of trivia Burton was a producer on Forever, take that as you will.
Action Spidey It just goes to show what poor planning can do to a film series. think about this for a second Burton: who is not a fan of the original material even though he said he was inspired despite he lied about that and said he'd never read a comic if people knew him; get near total freedom with Returns even though apparently WB was trying to put a leash on him; didn't work. Shumaucker: an actual fan of the material and even though he had a little too much love for the 60's show (Not going to hate on him for that I love the 60's show too) get almost now breathing room and is forced to make a seqeal to Forever which is the exact same plot in some spots and is forced to make it "Toyettic." I hate that word. Singer: The guy has a die hard affection for the Donner films and he's given complete control because WB mentality was "Well he did so good on the X-Men he can't fail here." We got film that was more a retread of those films rather than a next step. Snyder: WB mentality "Well he's done so well with 300 and Watchmen we'll give him Superman." Seeing a pattern here? On the recent Spider-Man films the Amazing series had potential but it was squandered because Sony wanted to do what Marvel was doing but they only had Spider-Man. Now Peter does have other heroes he associates with but I highly doubt Sony would have made a Prowler movie compelling. Not knocking Prowler I'm just saying. Fan4stick is a whole other can of worms but still. All examples of poor planning and WB is the worst because they NEVER learn from the mistakes they've made because they'enever cared about the characters and only care about what will sell. They want to be different from Marvel fine but at least be good different not "This is what kids want" different.
That shouldn't matter when writing a good Superman story. Sam mentioned All-Star Superman and he's absolutely right about that. It's one of the best despite being as powerful as the then-canon version. There's also Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen and he's the most interesting character in the series or Dream in Sandman who is quite literally one of the most powerful characters in the entire DCU.
+Rufus Harvey Possibly and perhaps quite likely, but not necessarily. Man of Steel was a little more polarizing than what this movie seems to be. While perhaps it is even more flawed, the redeeming factors might make it a more pleasant C film for many.
+Gottfried Osterbach The redeeming factors in Man of Steel were enough for me to forgive its flaws. Because of the negative reviews BvS are receiving now, I have a feeling Sam will dislike this movie. Just like with Man of Steel, I hope there are enough redeeming factors that will make me like it somewhat.
Nicely done Sam. Though if you post your thoughts BvS and they happen to be negative I'm incline to believe the DC fanboys are going to come in and start harassment in comment section like they did 3 years ago.
I know Peters is listed as a producer on Man of Steel, but I was under the impression that he had no involvement in making it. Just some leftover Hollywood contract nonsense. I could be wrong though. And I'm not defending Jon Peters or the movie. Producers like Peters are a what's wrong with Hollywood- like having a used car salesman in charge of a movie production. Apologies to all the used car salesmen.
I guess if you're looking for dumb action you'll be satisfied, but you'll be disappointed if you're looking for something more. Also, it is clear that the film disrespects Superman.
+Connor Brennan also , in your opinion. Nothing wrong with having an opinion but everyone here including the guy in the video speaks their opinion as if its a fact and it isn't.
Well, if it sounds that way, it's because we are all so passionate about this. We may not mean to sound that way, but that's just how it turns out sometimes I guess. Think whatever you want to think. I won't stop you.
The Christopher Reeve Superman movies and Superman Returns are the DEFINITIVE Superman. "Realistic Superman" from Man of Steel and BVS is not Superman.
I disagreed with your statement that the people who worked on Man of Steel didn't really like the character; I own Man of Steel on DVD and when I listened to the cast and crew talk about the project, it seemed to me that they genuinely cared about Superman and the source material he came from. I may like Man of Steel much more than you do, but I don't think with the passion they had for the project they aimed to bend Superman in some way that would make him more appealing in their eyes. I think they wanted to make the best Superman story they could create and what they made wound up not being what everyone wanted to see from Superman. (Although, in all fairness the fact that Superman snapping Zod ' s neck only came about because David Goiter thinking it would be cool does come from that uninspired place you described and does deserve to be called out in spite of whether or not I like how it turned out in the context of the film.)
Just saw BvS. Sam, I know you don't usually put your face on camera, but as soon as you step out of the theater after watching Dawn of Justice, please make a recording or take a snapshot of your face. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh...oh...god.......... *cries in a corner*
killing zod at the end was powerful and I thought it was a good ending. It proves superman is willing to do what is necessary to save a family. However, they destroyed the whole city for 30 min and it got boring really fast. They should've watched spiderman 2
