Additional evidence: 1.The Beast's theme (or it's main motif) is played upon Sutekh's reveal. 2. In The Pyramids of Mars, one of the names the fourth doctor says Sutekh is known as is "Satan"
More evidence the harbingers have red eyes like how Toby did. They mention the howling void which I believe Tennant mentioned that line in the episode. Also when the Harbinger was speaking those words I got the same vibe as Toby in that episode.
Watched Space Babies, and when they were singing about lulubelle, they called her 'the baby', but when they sang about eating baby, they sang 'eat the beast'
Slightly tongue in cheek observation. But one of the reasons why Sutekh remains so popular from his one-off appearance is simply because the word “Sutekh” sounds so damn amazing in Tom Baker’s voice. His vocal intonation just matches the word so well. Bit like Rowan Atkinson saying something like “wibble” 😂
That would be an amazing twist, it would mean we have seen Sutek in series 2, unknowingly, and give great rewatch ability to The Impossible Planet. Also you will be able to say the 10th Doctor went up against Sutek.
@@user-jd4wv5tj5j Yeah, but referring to "The Beast" as Satan is a normal thing to do, she doesn't have to know that it's Sutekh or everything that's happening around her to recognise something is purely evil and reference the devil. Eitherway it hints that they're all connected
I rewatched the Satan Pit and thought the same- or at the very least the Beast was the original idea of Satan and Sutehk was the closest to that template
Many people like Carla, average everyday non time travelling folk, would se something demonic and call it the beast. I dont know or havent noticed if Carla has mentioned any faith, but that would be the answer of a religious person... At least thats one option.
Average every day people aren’t religious and calling things the beast. Most normal people have brains. 🤷🏼 my kind wouldn’t have immediately went to the beast because most every day people aren’t religious kooks.
@itsalexney if you read again, I was referring to in universe non time travellers. When someone sees something dark and ominous and use the term "it's the beast" (and hasn't been in the tardis for a while) then trust me, they are implying they are as you so kindly put "religious kooks". For the record, I am more concerned with beast like entities who live in human bodies, not a character from Miltons Paradise lost, so on that score I actually agree with you... Because I frequently roll my eyes when I hear the term used in the non sci fi universe.
For sure and the term wouldn’t be exclusive to religious people, acknowledging that what you’re witnessing might be the Devil whilst also non religious is a certain possibility, I do think Carla’s character would end up being religious with her appreciation of Christmas, Ruby’s birth date in particular & blessings; all in all a fair take but it was written in the script for a reason and I doubt it’s exclusively a take on what she’s witnessing but also a reference & an open idea for the future since new show runners will end up rewatching many episodes during their time of show running for lore (atleast I hope)
About the object you mentioned: I think it may have something to do with the Eye of Horus, which looked a lot like a ruby to me when I watched 'The Pyramids of Mars'. I think that when it was shattered, its essence was scattered throughout space and time, and that Ruby Sunday may somehow embody it. I'm all theoried out by now.
Would be cool if this were a Satan Pit prequel, I thought of that, can't wait to find out. BTW, I did some digging cause people were speculating about the animal that Sutekh's head is - Egyptologists don't know for certain, but they call it the Sha. The speculation ranges from a Saluki dog who runs with it's ears erect, to an oryx (desert antelope), a donkey, a fennek fox, a jerboa (rat w/big ears), an aardvark, or even a giraffe.
I think ruby is a child of the tardis which the tardis created to protect itself from Sutekh. Made by the technology from the baby machines from the earlier episode
I was wondering if he was connecting Sutehk to the Beast when I saw it as well. Davies said this was a story he had wanted to do since his original run. Very well could be that The Satan Pit was intended to be the start of this plotline.
There's even more credence to this idea when looking at some of the recent expanded media. So in the most recent War Master boxset, its revealed that Sutekh called upon one of his servants to assist in the genocide of the Osirans. This servant became known as the inquisitor by the timelords. Baring this in mind, in season 1 of Torchwood, a mysterious entity (and he is more an entity than just a man if you look at some of the Torchwood audios) called Billis Manger, was working to summon the son of the Beast, Abaddon. Now back to the War master boxset. Sutekh's servant, The Inquisitor, was Billis. The same Billis from Torchwood working for the beast's spawn. Another thing, you mentioned the deciples of light. Your right to make a connection, as that's the same name of the followers led by Horus against Sutekh, during the Ghost Wars.
"The estately place" is probably the locale we spend the episode in in pyramids of Mars, the old building that eventually became UNIT hq. But idk I mean it doesn't seem like this suetech actually shares much with the original episode, outside of mind control. RTD basically just slapped Suetekhs name on The Beast and called it a day. All of the powers are the same as The Beasts, the tardis even has the same reaction to landing on the impossible planet as it does throughout this season (complete with the doctor referring to it as indigestion like in Rogue), the voice actors the same, there's Egyptian imagery in The Beasts story as well, and In the impossible planet, The Beast speaks familiarly with The Doctor through the ood, implying heavily he has met him before(pyramids of Mars, or this finale). Then throw in sutekh outright saying The Beast is one of his many names. Frankly if RTD doesn't outright say Suetekh and The Beast are the same entity, then we have enough direct obvious evidence to draw the conclusion on our own
That photo of Ruby in front of a staircase reminds me so much of the place they used in the Wedding Of Sarah Jane where Clyde's like the Pantheon of Discord would be a sick name for a band.
Also more evidence: Abadon from the torchwood season 1 finale is the Beast's son and Abadon has death abilities like Sutekh because everyone under Abadon's shadow dies and I might be wrong but in the preview for empire of death i think people are falling before the dust cloud maybe under the shadow of it but they might've just stood on their own shoelaces or tripped over a rock I don't know. Also I'm probably wrong and it's not something you'd normally see in doctor who but I feel like everyone in the UNIT room with Sutekh is dead in like the first 1 minute of the episode but again I'm probably wrong because it's a family show so they wouldn't kill off that many characters especially when one is 13. Also unrelated to the rest but in the Devil's chord when Maestro plays the piano when the doctor shows Ruby the Earth destroyed, it used to say on subtitles that it was the Saxon theme aka the sound of drums in the Master's head but I rewatched the episode recently and noticed it has been changed to 'distorted version of Doctor Who theme'. Are they trying to hide something?
As the last episode is still in the future for me I'm going to share some theories I ran out of time for sharing before I find out if I'm right or wrong by watching it. Sooo hyped for that! I think you're right, they are, at least they have become one entity. There are also so many two references (Doctor mentions his two hearts in promise to defeat whatever they are talking to, Presumably the beast/Sutekh) and twinned TARDISes, one a prize, hmm, prize/gift.... There are even lines about we are two and lots of pairs from the not things to twin planets with twin lifeforms in the Tornado Nebula linked to Sky and possible relevant details of the Sarah Jane Adventures Can't believe you didn't mention the huge ruby in the beast/Sutekh's head. Some takes on Egyptian mythology have it that Set has a benevolent aspect (a sort of yin-yang like positive and negative side) so Ruby may tie in to that due to the ruby clue (and also red plus pinks and reds in other characters, a lot...), there's also the protective red gem of the eye of Horus from Pyramids of Mars. Maybe the TARDIS split is important- beastie was already wrapped round it possibly (albeit maybe in a bootstrap paradox event before and after itself (very Who story) way if the time window was the trap to free it then it was there in the past) so is one aspect of Set (Sutekh) linked to each split TARDIS? As I noted this arc started with The Star Beast, The Beast around star, which I think ties in the TARDIS (Sutekh beast woven around possibly within it) and the eye of harmony at the heart of the TARDIS and it's dying star/ black hole linked origin. Maybe like death per life in reality there's a way it can't even be fully defeated. Note the eye in the TARDIS is locked into the moment just before it completes its death and becomes or becomes something linked to a black hole. Came to this conclusion when had a penny drop moment in break at work- harmony/discord two opposites and fits music, and has been specifically hinted at through The Devil's Chord, the musical laugh of The Giggle etc, we saw a bad omen type shot of the giggle wavelength still on a UNIT screen AFTER The Toymaker's defeat so Eye of Harmony vs Pantheon of Discord?.... Re your cave painting theory as well as the was Sutekh trapped where the UNIT site is in PoM possibility (and my pondering did he use the time window to escape by tricking them into using it in combination with whatever happened to the TARDIS in Wild Blue Yonder, perhaps fusing the beast and Sutekh aspects of the whole into one) as the eye of harmony links to a black hole it could link to trapping Sutekh this way as you suggest. If time is a circle (hinted at by church clock approaching midnight and fairy or fate circle etc) maybe this dualform beast can never be eliminated, only contained with its eventual return always possible, perhaps inevitable?
I've been hoping that was the case for ages, I don't think the Doctor ever met Toby when he was possessed by the Beast so it makes sense that he wouldn't have known it was Sutekh. The timeless child also fits in with the Disciples of Light from before the universe sort of thing.
In Pyramids Of Mars was also known as the Typhonian Beast. The Beast in The Satan Pit looks like a ram or goat-like creature. It seems like some of the Gods look like Sutekh - Jackal, Horus - Falcon, Mara - Snake so The Beast is another god-like creature.
I just thought when she said it’s the beast it was just fear and referring ti how the devil is called the beast and was just her sensing this great evil was the devil
Sutekh being the Beast makes no sense. The Beast was still trapped in the pit in during periods where Sutekh was free. The Beast has been stuck in the pit since before time and only escaped (or rather failed to escape) in the 42nd century. And Sutekh was free in 5000 BC, 1911, and 2024, when The Beast was still trapped.
In many religious communities today people call anything they think might be the Supreme evil the Beast. That's why Carla called it that, in her culture what else could it be at that moment. In the impossible planet/Satan pit the Beast is implied to be the inspiration for all cultures idea of the Beast. So that's how the two episodes are definitely connected. I have a faint memory that the Beast may have called him self Set in the impossible planet ( I may rewatch that episode later ). So the two god-like beings are definitely reaching for same role and RTD would definitely be aware of that.
The Original concept for The Satan Pit was that Sutekh was the big reveal. But RTD decided against it and rewrote it as The Beast. according to a conversation I had with Mark Gatiss.
Did anybody else notice The Masters theme music playing when Ruby ran into the time window??? I know I know, Russell said he’s on “leave” for the lack of better words but COME ON!!!!! Also, The Doctor is God of stories? Memory Tardis, feeding it stories of old… Ion know, fleeting thought maybe 😅
I think the doctor is god of LIFE...as he can restore life, and regenerates, and an entire civilsation evolved based on his regeneration abilities into the Timelords..Direct opposite to Sutekh..
As the chameleon arch is in the vortex where Sutekh has emerged from I wonder if we get another reference to the Timeless Child or pre-Hartnell Doctors that gives a taster of the next series arch.
I would honestly absolutely adore if Sutekh and the Beast turn out to be the same creature (and I think it would be super fun if we do timeywimey in such a way that this is a prequel to those episodes. Small correction from your friendly neighbourhood egyptologist: Seth is not in fact the god of death, that would be Osiris and Anubis, since in Egyptian cosmology death and the afterlife are not seen as evil or bad their gods are positive forces. Set is also not an 'evil' god, he is simply the god of *chaos*, which is juxtaposed in Egyptian cosmology with Ma-at, the goddess of balance. Yes, Seth plays an antagonistic role in the becoming of Osiris as the lord of the underworld and an enemy of Osiris' son Horus, but he is really more akin to Loki than to the devil, if you wanted a comparison. He's chaos incarnate, and you need chaos becausewithout chaos there is no balance (and Egyptian cosmology is all about balance). He's also not a jackall (Anubis is a Jackall), the 'seth animal' as archaeologists call him is either extinct or fictional.
I remember picking up on lots of little threads years ago when I binge watched the series a few times, I think it's fair to say that Sutek was the original inspiration for the beast back when RTD was trying to be more original, weather this gets reshaped into a more litteral tiein I guess we'll find out but if not this could be a little admition to the viewers.
The special effects were stunning overall except sadly Sutekh. His head looked like a cross between a draught horse (especially the mouth and nostrils) and a massive canine (even down to having a collar). You can actually see the fabric material used in the costume even down to the stitching. CGI good but they should probably have also applied it more to the actual revelation of Sutekh. I hope the mask makes a return. All that money and I an old school DW fan could easily detect the handmade parts of Sutekh's appearance. You can't tell so much on this post because the picture does not fill the screen but look around the left eye (on screen) or Sutekh’s actual right eye - it is very easy to notice the material on a large screen. Enlarge the image and you can see the actual thread. Is this a promo photo? The possessed humans though were very shocking and convincing and what an ending. Wow.
@@itsalexney I know but I just think in this case he doesn't look like a Jackal. It doesn't matter but as long as the creature looks real. I was just suprised I could see some unconvincing effects. But overall he still looks menacing and frightening. He is supposed to look like/have the head of a jackal (as you correctly state) yet to me I kept thinking he looked more like a dog. Anyway it's just a personal opinion on just one small aspect, however overall this finale looks like it is going to be very exciting. I hope you enjoy the final epsiode.
@@TreyHusted Actually I have both a defence and a embarrassment in reply to your commnent. I never actually watched Space Babies. I could tell just by the previews and commentary it wasn't going to be a great episode for me. Some must love it though but everywhere online it seems to be most people's last ranked story. If I had of watched it I think your comment would resonate with me as a very justifiable one. It's fair comment anyway. Cheers.
in episode 7 in the time window there was a significant time period spent on the lamp post, it flickered to give the impression it was loading up. Maybe that wasnt true and maybe it was materialising as now in the first photo you showed on this video it now looks as if it's in the room for real with them.
Well done on calling it, I too had called it months back but was beginning to think Russell may have been misdirecting and was managing my expectations. I've always thought they were connected, given Tom Baker's speech in Pyramids about Sutek being Satan, but I love the idea of it being a prequel or bigger connection. Btw, in The Name Of The Doctor, The Great Intelligence says The Doctor will eventually go by other names and one of them is THE BEAST.
Carla saying "the beast" could just be her seeing something dark and demonic looking and thinking "oh it's the devil!" The Devil is called the beast sometimes,so even though it would be super cool if Sutekh was the beast,I don't think that line is very good evidence.
Ah, you have suggested at least two mechanisms for stopping Sutekh, both last resorts. The previous episode mentioned chronons. One method Time Lords and the Doctor have used many times is to trap beings or even entire planets in a time loop. One can think of time loops as discrete states of time, chronons, locked in a quantum type configuration that is unbreakable by whatever is trapped inside. A second method would be to create a time paradox that traps Sutekh, probably involving Ruby Sunday's mother or lack thereof, and then invite whatever RTD wants for Time Vortex creatures to come and destroy the paradoxical time loop, and Sutekh along with it. Either way would leave ambiguity by the end as to the fate of Ruby Sunday.
I've got a question regarding the Tardis. If Suetek was hiding around the Tardis and starting to manifest way back in Wild Blue as that's where the first moan from the Tardis in that when they crash. When The Doctor wacks the Tardis with the toymakers mallet and splits it in two, does that mean Suetek was split too?
The Beast owned being evil. Sutekh pointed out that "Your evil is my good. I am Sutekh the destroyer. Wherever I tread I leave nothing but dust and darkness. I find that good". So in his philosophy he is not evil.
I don't think they are the same entity. But I do think they are related somehow. Alas also, the Beast has a son named the 'Great Devourer' which absorbed life through it's shadow but it dies when trying to absorb Jack Harkness' immortality. Perhaps Sutek always was just a powerful alien, but he has since absorbed the power of the Beasts Son.
NOTHING to break down with the stately house image? Are you sure about that? It looks awfully similar to the house / mansion in The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith or am I reaching here?
Ruby's mum calling Sutekh the Beast has nothing to do with the Beast of the Pit. Its another call back to the original story. The Doctor mentions that they also called him the Typhonian Beast.
In Pyramids of Mars, when Sutek tortures the Dr, his eyes glow green and there is a green aura around the Dr. Is that what is happening in Unit HQ in the finale. Also Tom's Dr uses the time console from the Tardis. Is that what Ncuti is holding ?
We know the doctor came from another universe or outside the universe so what if he is actually the god of life explaining why he has the ability to regenerate. We also know Ruby got her name from Ruby road where she was found so what if ruby is actually the harbinger of the doctor
Thats what i was thinking because when i rewatched TLORS, I thought Sutekh's voice was familiar, and i looked up the actor and saw he was voiced by the same guy who played The Beast, and not being overly familiar with Sutekh, i looked into him and saw he was also considered to be the devil.
I don’t believe they are the same character but I do believe it likely that Sutekh is probably very aware of the Beast and plays along with those myths and uses them for his own gain
Carla says THE BEAST because its a name for the Devil...SATAN. She doesn't know about seasons episode. However, one of Sutekh's other names, as stated in PYRAMIDS OF MARS was...Satan.
I wonder if the place Ruby and the Doctor is the site in 1911 where 4 and Sarah were in Pyramid of Mars Side note: didn't The Beast have a son in TORCHWOOD?
I am totally on board with his theory! However, how come Carla be aware of who the beast is?! She was the one saying "I know it's name: it's the beast!" No one else said anything.
I would 100% bet that Sian Clifford as 'Kind Woman' is actually playing the young version of Susan Foreman and that they will get Carole Ann Ford in to play the older version of Susan somehow opposite David Bradley as the first doctor.
I think I know why carla said the beast. Carla and cherry Sunday are part Jamaican, or at least I think so by the way cherry talks. But I thought in Jamaican culture they still do believe in the boogeyman. And another word they have for boogeyman, is the beast. I think that's why she said it.
Set in Egyptian Mythology isn’t actually the god of death, he is more the god of storms and chaos and is linked to death because of that (at least in my limited research!)
I have a feeling that the reason Carla called it “the Beast” was just a Christian sort of thing. Christian’s will sometimes refer to satan/the devil/whatever as “the Beast.” I don’t think it goes much further than Carla just meaning “it’s the devil,” but I guess we’ll see!
The Beast is the Devil.... I think that, most peeps would consider the manifestation of pure evil as "the beast".... although, I've been could a beast on numerous occasions.... but those are tales for another time... and another platform..... ahem..... May I refer you to the number of the beast by Iron Maiden? BTW, enjoy you summer jollies! :)
You recently changed up your comments about working on RU-vid as your part time job and I thought maybe you'd finished Uni and how this is your full time job? But now you just returned to reminding us that this is your part time job and you do make so, so much content I wonder how much time you spend each week on it? All that said, do you have another part time job as well or are you looking for something full time?
I don't think they are the same. They're origins are a Billion years apart and they're abilities are (just) different. They are voiced by the same actor. That's it. It's like saying Optimus Prime and Ironhide are the same. THE Key to Time will save the universe but start a war over future ownership of it
Not really reconning. Sutekh was an Osirian, then imprisoned, then released, Doctor trapped him again. Then Sutekh went to the void somehow. He became the beings there, brought them to the universe Why Sutekh's Harbinger says he is the mother, father, and other of all. Sutekh got around
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