Tekken Movement WILL NOT Gatekeep Me. 

We didn't get the outro out, but I talk about how pacing yourself and learning these movements incrementally rather than shotgunning 2-3 hours of practicing a new coordination is better for health and development. Once the strength, coordination, and endurance is built, you can do it way more, but without building that base, it's easy to suffer injury

Note that "Pinya-step" was something Knee just made up because he noticed Pinya using it. Pinya was not the first player to discover this technique nor has he ever claimed to be. Amongst Raven players we never refer to it as "pinya-step". Its just called ravu-wavu or cd cancelling. Older Raven players like Tissuemon were using it years before Pinya popped into the pro scene. There are old clips on YT as far back as T5 showing off the technique. There were however no guides or tutorials on it, so I took it upon myself to make one once I had learned it myself (which took a lot of navigating in the dark as the old videos never displayed inputs). I play on pad so other Raven players on different peripherals made guides focusing on their peripheral of choice. And it wasn't until after this, that Pinya would be seen using this technique in tournaments. Just felt that's necessary to clarify. Also other cd characters can also make use this technique, not just Raven as once previously thought.

Exactly why Smash Melee/PM and Tekken are probably my favorite fighting games: movement is paramount and extremely important if you want to be good. And it feels really good when it clicks and you get it down.

Personally the best example of movements importants and hype is Qudans. His way of doing wavedashes into nothing and then baiting out a wiff punishing it instantly with an ewgf is so mind blowingly good gameplay

I love how much this guy just straight up enjoys Tekken. I can feel it through the screen

It's very easy to do these dashes on a keyboard: d,d/f,d Feng has a rolldash into blocking with: d,d/f,d,b . Barely any people know about it, but Feng can block *while still rolldashing forward* if you do the input mentioned before. So what I often do is: d,d/f,d,b,d,d/f,d,b,d,d/f,d,b, to dash forward and close the distance and then do mixups. Some opponents will attack into you thinking that you can't block rolldashing forward, you just block it and now it's your turn to attack. You can get hit when you're entering inputs d,d/f,d, of course, but you can block most of the rolldash animation, so it's OK. Feng is even better than people realize.

KBD isn't really that hard, the game just needs to teach it. When I watched Anakin's video on it I just got it, and was able to practice it properly from then on.

Always love the way you analyze things and practice. The true student of the game

Oh man I started learning maven recently and I love her but couldn't find a exhausting tutorial on her dashes. And now you made vid dedicated to that, Phi always here to save the day, thank you sir 🤜🤛

The great thing about tekken is that there is so so much depth in many different aspects of the game, including movement itself. After reading many other peoples thoughts and opinions on movement in tekken throughout the years, I think when the argument is made that movement needs to be easier or more intuitive or that movement is unnecessarily hard for no reason, that people aren't actually saying to take away the depth or lower the skill ceiling, which is what it may sound like they're saying at first, but the more i think about it and what they're actually asking for is to keep that depth, but somehow make base level movement such as simply holding forward or backward better. What would make it better? Maybe increasing walk speed or spacing. Idk what the answer is, but i think those are the questions the developers should be thinking about.

Here's my issue: I super firmly belive high execution gameplay is super freaking cool... ...but I EVEN MORE firmly believe that games should be designed to be fully enjoyable without crazy levels of execution. Pro-level players make up like 1% of the playerbase. You can't design the entire game prioritizing them alone. Movement is incredibly important in tekken, so I think if there's any mechanic that should feel fun WITHOUT execution, it should be that. The optimal zone imo is where casual players don't miss out on fundemental appeals of the game due to lack of execution, while retaining the importance of execition in pro-level play. Hate to say it as someone who doesn't really play them, but even most shooters do this a lot better than tekken does. In most you still get the full experience even if your aim is garbage and you have to play on the lowesr sensitivity, because there's always plenty of full-auto and spread-shot weapon options, and single/burst fire weapons tend to have longer range, so you can still enjoy them too as a noob by playing slower paced and picking off enemies from afar. Meanwhile you still have the insane hype factor of pro players being able to hit multiple split-second no-scope sniper shots back-to-back. And from a movement point of view, there's usually mechanically advanced movement options to move faster or be harder to hit, but it's equally viable to simply duck in and out from behind cover in different directions. I think the optinal spot for movement in tekken is pretty close to where the cbt is. KBD benefits from increasing fluidity over regular backdashing, but low execution players still get solid enough movement via regular backdash to be able to have interesting movement-heavy combat. Personally I'd decrease the delay between non-cancelled backdashes just a smidge more, but I'm still very happy with where its at.

God, i dont even wanna think about doing this motion on stick. It's super easy on hitbox tho, lmao.

getting better at movement in tekken is very rewarding

Cool. Thanks for breaking this stuff down so well. So how are you practicing T8 after the test tho? Is practice mode somehow still available.

I was screaming 2,1,1 when he got that wall splat😂

Hey man do you have a video or tutorial vid for leroy? I think he looks cool and I really wanna learn him

I have huge problem to play characters with backflips in Tekken, especially Raven, because he will go into stance and even use white hole when i cancel his backdash. This is because of the input method i use to decrease strain on the tendons of my left hand. The fastest backdash cancel on hitbox style controllers is done by holding back and alternating up(fast click with right thumb) and forward (fast click and wait a few frames). It is not a clean Korean backdash, so you do not have any low block and unfortunately rage art freeze frames will make you jump like a dumbass. You will also automatically use wallflip attacks. If things stay like this i likely can't play Raven at a high level, which is sad because i loved this man ever since he dropped the line "Heihachi Mishima... is dead!" in that T5 demo intro.

There's a reason why you still see such a large community around a game as old as Melee. Depth in fighting games like advanced movement is what makes a game truly worthy of dedication and allows you to reach an entirely new level of enjoyment and satisfaction that keeping a game simple will never let you reach. I'm genuinely worried about the reduction of movement and added aggression in T8 because of this. I'm still kinda new to Tekken having picked it up in T7 so maybe I'm overreacting, but if advanced movement is ever entierly removed from the series idk if I'll be able to find the motivation to play anymore.

To be honest i would like u to watch yeonarang’s snake movement its the most difficult movement in tekken ive ever seen and he does it like hes wave dashing and the amazing part about it he can do it with backwards input.

"...prone to causing injuries." 😥

I'm missing where you address the issue of how these movements are prone to causing injury. The high skill ceiling of movement has never been the issue for me. Rather, I don't think hands are physiologically suited to these kinds of minute, repetitive movements, and that's my main beef with it.

I jus picked up master raven for T8 raven and i noticed i can do her wave dash cancel with her cancel being the UP input better than i can wave dash . Ive literally been practicing for 2 days

My biggest fear before getting my hands on Raven was that they would've simplified or removed the ravu~wavu. It's so goddamn satsifying and a huge part of what makes the character appealing to me.

Do it just like Lee's slide with a quick neutral in between. Works for me

Im not done watching yet, but so far to do this technique you just have to do qcf n d,df and once you started the one from crouch, you chain d,df,n,d,df,n it's a timing based input but you can just chain d,df,n with some speed and it will still work, as you said, just don't get to f or you're cooked, it's a very easy motion to learn and develop (Raven players trying to make it like it's a very hard technique to master 😂) Edit (after I watched) : Seems like it's kinda easy to get it done, in T7 it was also a very good approaching tool due to the constant low parry input, as well as constant high crushing, and sometimes mid evasion, I bet everything works the same on T8 except that it will not evade mids that easily

Also why Raven/Maven snakedash is so good is that it buff low parry :D

They don't know that movement made Tekken a quarter easier to play since you don't have to eat or block pokes mid battle always and you can whiff punish the opponent.

Yep*

My main issue with movement is that, thinking about all the variables of what I want to do, what my opponent wants to do, reacting to whiff etc., always makes me freeze in the game which then makes me only playing it like a 2D game where I block and wait for my turn to hit instead of this very free-flow movement. Idk what's wrong with me. I can do wavedash/backdash cancels in practice mode but when it comes to a real match, I just never do it. It is very frustrating for me

Yo Phi, you ever play any Rivals of Aether? You strike me as a Rivals enjoyer

Off-topic, but, since Noctis won't be in Tekken 8, who will you main? For sure, others have asked you this before, I don't watch you much, so idk.

I’m on pad and Ravens crouch dash feels way smoother than a Mishima wave dash to me.

Nina's crouch dash is very hard as well

Gosh this looks so much easier on hitbox

I'm not against advanced movement tech in games. I love movement type games. But I do fully understand both sides of the argument. When I started playing Tekken it did feel kind of clunky to move around at first but once I started learning how my character moves it stopped feeling that way. I want games to be in that comfortable mid ground where moving around feels intuitive and natural, where mastering complex movement techniques is like, one of the last things you have to learn and master to play well. I think one of the issues with Tekken is that a lot of the times new players feel like they HAVE to know it's movement tech to be able to just play and that makes it seem more like gatekeeping. I think anime fighters and super smash bros are the best examples where a movement system feels immediately intuitive but still have some level of depth to them that is by no means necessary to play at a normal level. A lot of said movement techniques are also not necessarily difficult to learn, and the hardest part is learning how to apply it well. And that's where I think movement should be. Immediately intuitive but not without some extra butter on top to give it some complexity.

I hate that we even have to have this discussion that learning anything complex should require practice is "gatekeeping" or "elitist". I'm sorry, that's not gatekeeping at all. Wanting complex combos or movement to be locked behind execution is not gatekeeping. It's keeping true to a very basic concept - which is that anything worth doing should involve training to get better at it. Like at other things like the gym or playing guitar. Do you know why no one ever complains about not being able to deadlift 300kg easily or play complex guitar solos? I do, it's because there's no "developer" these people can go crying to nerf the requirements for doing these things. They have to swallow the bitter reality that if you want to do any of these things, or other impressive displays of skill, technique etc - you have to put in the time and effort for it. For video games however, to make up for their feelings of inadequacy or insecurity - they're reframing skill requirements as gatekeeping because in this scenario, there is someone they can go crying to, that's in a position to actually do something about it. Instead of looking inwards and saying; "What am I doing wrong? How can I fix it?" - they have an easy out by saying "How can I blame others or shift accountability?"

pog

I need help learning this movement on hitbox

nice content

You don’t have to press up. You can cancel from QCF to fullcrouch. You get the next crouch dash from fullcrouch. The one where you cancel fullcrouch to neutral is completely unnecessary and just a flex to be honest. No utility to it. You have know when you can access full crouch and QCF moves during your dash. It’s bigger than just dashing. Also you don’t always sneak dash with the intent to hit. Sometimes you just block. If every time you go to sneak dash they launch you they’ll keep mashing against it.

I like Tekken movement and I want it to be good. I do hate doing it on a Japanese lever though lmao I need a korean stick to be able to learn doing it consistently without it feeling like chruning butter or giving me artrithis

Yuh we learning that ravu-wavu

people has forgotten about dead or alive 5

I just read the dpad comment in the chat and it's easy but slow lol

3:20 :]

Everyone that complains about this are the type to buy a guitar, practice for 3 days, and then give up. Literally takes like 7 straight days of 20 min of practice and you can do almost any tech that isnt frame perfect, people just dont want to do the work

I love you PhiDX 😘😱

if you think movement techniques are gatekeeping then i'll support the gatekeeping movement

My argument is so what if it's gatekeepy or elitist? Why do gamers strive for soulless perfection and "games should be for everyone" mindset. Why can't we have cool mechanic like kbd? I've seen TGO players with good fundamentals who don't kbd at all. If that's the case HOW is it gatekeepy?

“Oh no I have to practice something therefore it’s gatekeeping me” What a silly argument 😂

complex movement for hardcore platyer: challenging and cool filthy casuals: gatekeeping and unnecessary - what a bunch of bums

You should've played Virtua Fighter 3 and 4.Those games had amazingly deep movement mechanics that have since beel watered down/removed in the latest VF. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-PCWVabhdTSE.html This one from Ryan Hart one of the only top level players of both Tekken and VF ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Trr6COGLDHo.html VF3's movement was easier to do and on the hands thanks to the dodge button which doubled as a movment assist button.

Movement is defense

The first time I ever saw KBD in my life I was like what tf is this, are they having a seizure, why are they moving like that 😭 it looks extremely goofy and is something I honestly don't care about learning. And I am absolutely content with that. I've been playing Tekken since I was seven or so, I love the game to death, I enjoy playing it and I know that if I don't put an effort into learning the more advanced mechanics I will be just an ok player, at best. People who are saying KBD is gatekeeping probably don't even wanna master the game and become pro players or whatever, they're just mad they got their ass kicked online a few too many times by a guy that moves like a weirdo 😂

It's not that these movement exploits are gate-keepy -- it's that they're just stupid. It's easier to make my character do an intricate martial arts move than it is for them to simply move backwards? That is so dumb.

Oh you like movement and you dont care about gatekeeping? Go ahead and play magneto in Marvel 3. Ill wait.

why wouldn't people just learn how to do it? Just takes a little practice

People who don't like movement are either victims of severe skill issue or never saw a single match of Q3A/TF2/airdasher fighters

People that complain about something being "gatekeepy" are just too lazy to practice. You will not master EVERYTHING in a game that has depth, people just need to get over that fact. Also, making it too accessible means that players that hardly play will be able to perform **EFFECTIVE** higher level techniques without putting work into it, how astronomical would a person's sense of entitlement have to be to think this way.

It sounds like the people complaining about this are people fighting games weren't meant for. So why are they the ones being pandered to? Clown world.

People wanting to nerf movement in Tekken are like those who want the souls series to have different difficulty modes. If you can’t dedicate the time to learn the game. Don’t play it. It’s supposed to be challenging and we won’t sell our game’s identity as legacy players ‘cause someone is lazy. Not every new player wants to be babied. We were all new players once.

Complaining about KBD in Tekken is like going to Quake and complaining about bunny hopping and air strafing.. Just because people are better than you at it, you feel like its gatekeeping.. this new generation of people in general just don't want to have to try hard at anything. They want everything spoonfed to them and this is the real truth