at NL4 the elbit and l3 look much better than photonis which is what everyone already says. You buy photonis to save money or if you know youre going in mixed lighting conditions but you sacrifice low light performance. You buy L3/elbit if you want low light performance at the cost of highlight performance and cost. It's just trade offs
One thing we are working through, the camera setup we are using unfortunately does lower the PERCEIVED brightness of each tube. The reason this is still an accurate comparison is because it affects them all equally. We are designing new adapters to 3D print and next time we will have even better production value for all of you. That will help understand how close the Photonis really is. We are also going to mix in NNVT 1800+ FOM tubes and Photonis High Gain. Expect another one in the not-too-distant future!
Misinformation or type O? You buy Photonis if you want the most for your money. A modern feature rich tube. You buy ECHO if you want to cheap out. You don't need to miss the low light capability. Just get 4G+ with 90.000 gain and nice output brightness. ECHO tubes are trashy Fallout tubes with extremely low gain.
I was gonna say... I see a big difference especially NL2 and down between L3 and the Echo. The Echo image almost seems unusable in NL2 and on. Maybe the photonis looks way better in person?
ECHOs are fallout tubes with very low Gain and output brightness. Of course it's worse. If you want a brighter picture you need to pick a high gain photonis tube with bright output. 4G+ high gain already outperformed standard L3 Unfilmed. In general I would avoid L3. Get Elbit instead. Way better MTF!
Yea I have a set of NVGs with the Photonis 4G high gain, high FOM (2200+ FOM Hand Select) and it doesn’t stack up that well to my L3 24UAH, DTNVS MG). Although the 4G does work well in the urban environment where there is lots of ambient light.
I have the Photonis 4G Echo in a Nocturn housing. I have been incredibly happy with the performance. The vast majority of us civilians don’t gain (pun intended) anything by going with a higher “quality” or priced tube. If you have no budget and are an actual operator, get the most expensive stuff. If you’re the other 99.998% of us, get a Photonis and go have fun in the dark.
Did anyone think they proved the opposite of their point here? The Photonis were clearly lower performing that elbit and l3 in even NL2 and NL3 completely fell off being even competitive. This is exactly in keeping with what people say about the Photonis. The tubes perform well when there is supplemental light (urban areas w/ light, full moon no cloud cover) but in no light/low light they fall short. That is exactly what is seen here.
@@ravenbear-eaglelion8830 I don’t disagree that they push lower spec tubes but I don’t know if it runs on the shilling side because 1) I think it does a service to new guys getting into to night vision thinking the barrier to entry is a white phos l3 or elbit tubes and these guys provide a hand picked service for lower spec tubes 2) I think of they are shilling they wouldn’t release a video clearly showing the lower spec options are in fact worse
LOL...my old Omni7 tube outperforms my XW3240A 4G+ (2300FOM) in every condition... But a 4G+ costs roughly $4k or something? And the Omni7 non-aviation grade would cost below $1.2k!
One thing you said that resonated was wrapping the extra money from an L3 tube into extra equipment. I think you’re right, getting a lower spec tube and spending en extra 2k to get a vcsel laser would be a great step.
The argument about it being too bright falls apart because most of us with L3 high gain tubes also have manual gain. The Photonis does do great with lots of ambient light but we aren’t buying night vision for seeing where there’s lots of ambient light.
You made some really good points and finding videos that discuss what spec sheets really mean are hard to find, especially with examples like in your dark room. Ask the average NVG dude what's your SNR and EBI and what do they mean and they'll look at you with the labrador head tilt. You guys could probably get quite a few views if you did a "This is what each number on your spec sheet means, and why it's important" video. Definitely forwarding this to my cousins that live down the hill, they've been wanting NVGs but have been scared away from dropping the dollar on "Budget" tubes.
I'm a noob to intensifier tubes and still learning, but based on what I just watched here, to me, the L3 tubes were the clear winner. The only exception is the poor performance with the IZLID laser. But! (always a but!), the real advantage to intensifier tubes (and thermal) is that they are passive. If you have to introduce active illumination, then you can be seen by others with night vision. IZLID is still IR, just at different wavelengths than what we normally associate with IR illuminators. Their advantage being coherent light, is they reach a long way but as we saw, they are still visible. As far as low light performance vs brighter scenarios (relatively speaking), it seems tubes sort of lie somewhere within two realms, the high gains, which work better in extremely low light vs the others that are better in somewhat brighter scenarios. To me, it seems that's the trade off. Better performance in extremely low light has trade offs when there is more ambient light. The question then comes to mind, how bad are the high gain tubes really in some of the higher brightness conditions you are likely to encounter? If you have control of the gain, I don't understand how or why the L3's make things worse when you flip up your NODs vs any other tube. Why would you run them so bright as to completely blow your night vision? I dunno, maybe that's my noobness here, but every intensifier tube is pumping light into your eyes and your pupils are going to constrict (not dilate as he said in the video, but I know what he meant). Basically, in my current quest to understand intensifier tube night vision, it seems to me that really what all this boils down to is price vs performance. The Photonis 4g's look pretty decent, but I still think the L3's look best. The question then is how much more is a pair of L3's vs comparable spec'd 4g's and how much less performance are you willing to accept or can afford. So, although I'm still quite new to this, right now, based on what I've seen so far, and if money were no object, my "dream" NODs would be a pair of high FOM, high SNR L3 super gains with Boomslang 50 degree lenses. Would that be a bad choice? If so, then explain why. I'm still trying to absorb it all.
Another great video, we're starting to think you guys are actually getting good at these and understand what you're talking about! One recommendation is to show close up and distance shots so that viewers can see the effect contrast has on resolution in differing light levels and to mitigate the effect of shooting video through a camera. As you noted, it's tough to show what your eyes actually see versus what the camera sees, and getting closer to a calibrated chart will help smooth out the difference. One viewer, in the comments, was sharp enough to notice the reduction in resolution under high lights. Photonis tubes don't drop below 56 lp/mm resolution in high light conditions. Finally, as we always say everyones eyes and brains are calibrated differently when it comes to resolving light and shadows. Therefore, everyone considering NODs should purchase whatever looks best to them under the conditions they're most apt to operate in, at the price point they can afford no matter who makes the gear. Buying solely based on a spec sheet is a roll of the dice, and we encourage everyone to work with OEM approved vendors, such as Arkayne, to provide the best customer service and advice.
Just got my first echo and i’m loving it, havent been disappointed one time looking through it. When/how can I get 4g’s in the USA, thinking about a matched set for a pair of bino’s.
Appreciate what you guy's are doing! I personally went with a NL914C/PVS14 L3 from Nightline inc. Great tube especially with the adjustable iris. I won't lie.. It was alot over my head from all the "info" on YTube about "The best TUBES!" Use what you got. I have no regrets this being my 1st monocular. 🤙🏼🇺🇸
Yes, this video predates the High Gain by only a couple weeks. We plan to do another version of this including some NNVT and Photonis High Gain variants. Unfortunately we lined this all up juuuuust a bit early! Next Time!
Yes it was just the setup/glass causing distortion. Next time we’ll have an even more consistent mount for these units. This comparison was far from perfect, but it really achieved what we wanted to show. Next time will be even better with what we learned in the dark room with our filming setup.
I’ve always thought that Elbit is the most bang for the buck. I bridge a pair of 14’s when I’m not bridging my RH25 with a 14. Solid setup in my opinion.
Someone needs to come out with an out of band LAM. I think the most interesting take away from this test is how washed out the bars are under IR with the L3 and Elbit tubes.
An excellent observation. Read an L3 spec sheet sometime. High light center resolution diminishes by about 50%. Photonis does not. Elbit and L3 suffer tremendously in high light scenarios. Folks think "when am I ever going to be in high light scenarios!?" Anytime you enter a building with exit signs, any lights on, pass street lights, walk under street lights, have oncoming traffic coming right at you, turn on IR illumination, get hit with white light, etc. It happens A LOT. Thanks for watching!
I got L3, high spec, non-adjustable gain dual tubes and paid a lot. I worked extra hours/side hustled and saved. Definitely could've done much better with my efforts/ money. I do use them but would go a different direction if i could do it all over
With the prices of tubes now, I just don’t find photonis worth it anymore. Prices went up and now they’re neck to neck with some mid tier spec Elbit tube. What I can pay for an elbit tube that can see juuuuuuuuust that more in lower light? I’m gonna pay it if it’s not that much more, if not - the same price as not even a photonis 4g, but even a photonis echo. I don’t even know where to buy a 4g tube. Everyone offers echos and supply on those is low. If 4g tubes were just under that elbit price point and available? Dude, count me in I’d run those all day (sorry, night) long! But…that’s not the world we live in. I know you guys aren’t shilling. I know the feeling when you really believe in a product, but to pay for relatively the same for 4G tubes (because the echos in this test just looked worse than Omni 8 tubes I have), when I can get a bit more with an elbit or L3 tube? Come on. Out of band capability is freaking sick, but not my priority in nods. If photonis 4g tubes were more available, and were priced more reasonable compared to the others? I’d be singing a different song right now. I’m seeing 2200 for the echos rn but 2400 for good spec elbit xlsh? That’s where you lose me to come to the photonis side.
L3 unfilmed rocks(but i really think you meed manual gain), but elbit and Photonis work well and have their own perks! Get whats in your budget and run it
IDK dudes from your comparison at increasing NLs it seemed pretty clear that it was L3>Elbit>Photonis. Not sure your evidence matches your conclusions. You said you would take an Elbit over an L3 but the Elbit looked like crap the whole time.
@@WMDMithbuster If only we would have had a high gain echo tube when we did this video. The high gain Photonis tubes are becoming more and more common now.
9G's for photonis bino? that seems about double what it should be. fancy aluminum articulating bino's with high end photonis tubes? ok maybe high 7k max.
They’re expensive but extremely robust. Find another aluminum 16mm white phosphor 2000+ FOM option with the quality glass, auto shutoff, onboard IR, a hard case, sacrificial lenses, etc. not for everyone, but it’s an amazing unit
4G tubes slap. Don't sleep on them! Most folks have experience with VERY low spec Echo and they associate Echo with 4G. There are some amazing Echo tubes out there. But 4G will almost always have higher specs all around and it is VERY noticeable.
@@Arkayne I have a 2337 FOM Echo. It has some mild shadowing in zone 2, but otherwise it's amazing. Could it have been a 4g if it didn't have the shadowing? Specs: 33.87 SNR 69 Res 1.1 EBI (corrected for US measurement) 34.222 gain (also corrected)
The statements in this video seem to be at the very least inadvertently misleading. Saying "specs are specs" and then rolling it up under "just train past your specs", then acting like the specs themselves aren't what make the tube outside of the manufacturer, but then the elbit XLSH performing the best and yet *gasp* also having the best specs is kind of wild. I think it would've made more sense at the very least to guys who run night vision to say that tube manufacturer itself matters less than the specs of the tube. As was clearly demonstrated in the video, all of the tubes performed congruent to the specs listed at the end. The tube with the highest SNR and highest luminance gain did the best in the dark. That is an unavoidable truth.
The statement “specs are specs” means you compare spec sheets to spec sheets and the data is what it is. The numbers for Photonis, L3, Elbit are the same save for gain. That can easily be converted. We mean when you see identical EBI, SNR, Center resolution etc of a Photonis and another brand, the performance largely will be identical. Except for some strengths each possesses. We don’t mean specs never matter. We mean the comparison between them all is the same. Although we do believe your training matters most. That will never change.
@@Arkayne pushing cheaper, inferior, Chinese tubes doesn’t help anyone, expect the thieving Chinese. It’s also arguably unAmerican to push knocked off gear, especially for “2A people”. These tubes, as you both admitted or at least shown don’t perform particularly well in low light, which is where it actually matters. If you’re in light settings good enough for your naked eyes you arguably don’t need NV, and the L3s still show to be superior all around. Sure, an L3 is more expensive. 1k or so. L3 is also American, used by actual professionals and shown to preform the best all around. Pushing Chinese gear is unwise, this is my opinion and many others who won’t shill for the most intellectually dishonest society in history. Give your money to Americans and those who fund those who protect you. Being poor is a mindset, save your money and spend it in line with your principles.
