Testing the Brush Gun Myth 

Lesson: don’t shoot through a thing to hit a thing.

Iv8888 tested this on actual heavy brush and it showed significantly better performance from flat nose rounds. This is showing barrier penetration more than anything else...

From a hunters perspective, the term brush gun refers to a weapon's ability to be maneuvered and manipulated quickly in close quarter hunting scenarios. As you touched on, shorter barrels, but also heavier, slower rounds with good short range energy. Also, IMHO, brush guns should be iron sights, or at least very low magnification scopes with wide field of view. This is because in heavily wooded or brush areas, target acquisition needs to be fast. Love your stuff, huge fan!! Thanks

I think this is obvious... if wind is enough to change the impact of a bullet, why would any other thing touching it be different

Stop this you're going to make me buy a lever gun. My wallet already hates me lol.

5/8ths inch pine isn't exactly _brush_ I'd like to see the same performed with 1/8ths inch balsa to emulate actual twigs & _sunflower_ _stalks_

My Marlin 336 30-30 has always worked for me in any situation even across wide open areas, I can't understand why people think a 30-30 can't shoot in the open 🤨

I've hunted nearly my whole life (38 years) in WV which is almost exclusively brush country. My favorite rifle is a Marlin lever action in Remington .35 with optics. I've read many but not all comments. I use the gun for both reasons stated here. It's short and easy to move with through the woods. I believe it also gives me my best opportunity for clean harvest should I miss seeing a stray twig in the target path. Honestly, even though I have other rifles, I don't have a lot of experience hunting with them. I depend on my .35 because it always gets the job done. I do know I get 75-150 yard shots, yes, through the woods. I don't take risky shots and have probably passed on shots I should have taken but didn't. Good video but I don't remember if you said how far the sapling was from your friend and the deer. A twig close to you but far from the target has much more impact on success than one close to the target. Stay safe y'all and happy hunting!

If you shot through a short "field" of dowel rods, I think you would have a better representation. Testing various thicknesses and distances with each caliber would give even better data.

Enjoying the lever action series!

That friend saying he hit a sunflower stalk and that's why he missed his mark would've been a much less convincing story without it still hitting the target, and that kinda says a lot about people and our willingness to believe others

I was doing some varmint hunting 2 days ago, and took several shots at fairly close range through tall grass with a .222. Two out of three missed. I am fairly certain a 45-70 would have hit. When I think of 'brush' I am thinking there are some leaves or tall grass between me and the target, not limbs or boards. I have seen 22-250 bullets explode when shooting through willow leaves. 30-30's don't do that...

I went to the range on a windy day recently, and with a 40 mph headwind, I got vertical stringing with my AR.

I always thought “brush gun” refers to a gun that is easy to handle walking through thick brush. For example a short carbine instead of a rifle with a 30 inch barrel.

Good to know if I'm ever in a pasture covered in dry 5/8" pine strips. How does one of those strips compare to the sunflower stalk?

To get to the bottom of the brush gun history, we need to get Walter “Manny” Mansfield’s take on it.

Growing up I thought brush guns were just fast handling rifles with iron sights meant for quick shots at close range. Didn't know it was a literal thing to shoot through brush. Seems to violate safety rules to me.

This video is remarkably well made. Your post production skills have evolved nicely. Great work!

Just going to point out: 30/30 still hit 3 out of 3. The goal was to be able to shoot in the woods, which he covers well at about the 12 minute mark.

Even given the seemingly obvious flaws in equating 5/8" wood strips to light, intervening brush, or occasional plant stalks between the shooter and the target, let's take the results actually found by the test and see if they are significant. I'd say that a consistent 2/3 LESS deflection rate from the 30/30 to the other rounds is something the take note of for sure. If the other rounds are deflecting by 4" consistently, while the typical 'brush gun round' is deflecting by less than 2" consistently, then you are certainly getting a measurably better result through 'brush' and the claims can be said to stand up, in my opinion.

Thanks for your work on these videos. Greatly appreciated.

Really digging the lever series!!

Thank you for making this series. Hope everyone had a great and wonderful Christmas and a happy new year.

Hey Lucky Gunner team, loving the videos. Chris is a great host and I very much appreciate the quality of the content you guys produce.

The rough holes from the Carbine calibers could simple be partial deformation of the soft nose. Other test have shown how sensitive Spitzers are to even *very light* obstacles. The intent isn't to be able to shoot through a BRANCH, but through leaves and very light twigs.

Good video, interesting concept. While I generally agree that the concept of a "brush busting caliber" is moot, it is definitely true that heavier projectiles will be acted upon less by general brush. In this test you're shooting through a solid board. Even knowing that the board is not going to be completely uniform by means of density and makeup, the projectile is still being acted upon on all sides by the board as it passes through. However, if a projectile were to just nick the edge of the board to where it was only acting on say 50% of the surface area of the projectile, I would bet you would see your lighter projectiles deviate much further than heavier projectiles. At least my understanding of physics would imply so as the heavier projectile only being acted on on a single side would have more mass to exert it's own inertial forces against the edge of the board. Basically, the heavier an object is the hard it is to accelerate, decelerate, or change its direction.

Always good stuff Chris. Thanks. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours!

Always enjoy your videos. There is always lots of great info and interesting perspectives to consider

Reminds me of that cop sniper who couldn't understand why his bullets weren't hitting the perp, he was hitting the wall in front of him but looking through the optic he thought he had it high enough to clear it

Don't forget that the 'Brush Guns' ammo also is flat or rounded due to the fact it usually is loaded in a tube fed magazine. A pointed bullet could cause the ignition of the primer of the cartridge in front of it when the gun recoils.

Thank you so much for this lever action series

Great points! Thanks for the videos! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

I love that your intro clip is so short and simple.

That Marlin Dark at the end with the LPVO looks cool as heck.

Merry Christmas, Chris. I’m really enjoying this series, since I mostly hunt these NE Georgia woods using lever action Marlins

Very nice review Chris - thank you for posting

I was told that the bullet shape was to prevent the accidentally setting off the next round due to the tubular magazine, pointy tip to primer. True ?

It's "brush busting" not tree busting. I would have used balsa wood instead of pine. If you have a significant limb in your way you're going to adjust your aim.

Another reason for the truncated end of the heavier rounds is that they're used in tubular magazines, and the nose of the slug is pressed up against the primer of the next round. The thought was that they're less likely to cause a discharge from the recoil. Superb analysis of the data and experimental evidence in examining this subject. Merry Christmas!

Chris, I have had too many discussions about this all my life. You nailed it. You should have a clear path to the target.

years ago, I think it was Berretta that made a move on what happens when you shoot through brush. Wish I still had it. They pretty much showed that a "brush" busting bullet simply does not exist.

Awesome video. The overall advice at the end is great. I hunt in the woods with a 22" .308. I've seen the results of other hunters having taken marginal shots with "brush guns" that resulted in having to track a wounded animal for hours. No caliber is magic. It's mostly about the Indian, not the arrow.

Good video, got a chuckle out of it. Heard plenty of stories of shots thrown off by blades of grass, bullet mass definitely a major factor. Very well done

Great advice, thanks! Merry Christmas!

This is a great test, and that first round of 45-70 that nicked the barrier is the most telling. My money is that the most deflection would be found when a bullet in flight hits the edge of a barrier. The asymmetrical effect on the external ballistics would cause the most exaggerated deviation. That said, a test like that sounds like it'd be an exercise in frustration to get it done as the margin of error is as little as .224"

You should do this same test with a slow motion camera. It would be cool to see.

Absolutely one of the best channels ever!

Another superior video. Great job!

Having lived in both Missouri and Alaska, I have come to know two wildly different, yet valid definitions of what a "brush gun" is. In MO, most people mean something compact, light weight, with protected sights and positive chamber safety. Normally that means a lever action due to the easy decocking of the hammer and relatively save "live chamber". In AK, however, a brush gun is specifically something short with good iron sights that can stop at least a black bear with ok shot placement at short to close range. Aka a "bear thumper".

The deer died, tree branches are rounded and move. My favorite brush gun is the 12 ga. Slug and my ar style 450 bsm.

Nice video with great info. Thanks! Merry Christmas!

About two decades ago I remember reading in one of the major hunting publication magazines that a standard high-powered bottleneck rifle cartridge, such as the 30-06, was a better platform to actually go through brush than the standard commonly believed cartridges such as the 30-30 or 45-70.

Should have used round dows to see how much deflection.

I’ve taking over 180 deer in the brush, when we say A brush gun generally talking about when deer stop, they generally stop behind a small piece of brush, therefore if the bullet struck anything it would be within 1 to 3’ of the deer and generally in one or 3 feet the bullet won’t stray much, in my test pointed bullets tend to deflect much more than flat nose bullets and I used about 15 to 20 pieces of brush for each bullet to impact, sometimes you have to shoot through the brush if you want to eat

Hands down the best gun related channel on RU-vid. Thankyou Sir.

Made a couple magazine purchases from lucky gunner, worked out well and made it here in no time!

You should have shot dowels since that would more accurately represent the round shaoe of most branches and brush reeds. Theres a big difference in penetration capability and deflection resistance

Makes sense that most of those studies occurred during and right after Vietnam.

Man, you do good work. Thanks for this.

Very interesting. Appreciate these details.

Iraqveteran8888 did a nice part 1 and 2 few years back!

This was a good experiment, the only thing I didn't like about the test is that the wood sticks had a flat surface that was placed perpendicular to the bullets flight path, you could add another variable by using round dowel rods or angling the flat strips that you already have.

For all the safety patrols commenting...watch the whole video please. He clearly states he would never take a shot without a clear path to the animal, says hunters should consider better optics so they can make better decisions, says he doesn’t actually believe the marketing of these rifles was ever to encourage hunters to shoot through brush...watch the whole video...the video is about ballistics, trajectory, and WHY we shouldn’t shoot without a clear path...well done Lucky Gunner, as always!

Love the series!

The soft nose rounds likely also deformed in addition to yawing. Try looking up the Buick o truth for pistol caliber test on windshields. Slow heavy always shows less deviation.

Happy Holidays, everyone!

It's always been about handling well in thick brush. I remember growing up reading stacks of old hunting magazines, dating all the way back to the early 30's that had been passed down from my grandfather to my dad then to me. The topic of brush guns would come up every so often, and it was always about lightweight carbines that carried well in dense brush. I think the myth of "shooting through brush" came from a few advertisements about "brush busting" bullets. The old timers really knew their stuff and there was multiple articles about not shooting through brush. There was even an article where they shot through a raspberry bush at a target to demonstrate the effects of brush on bullets.

Merry Christmas to you and your family Chris.

To me personally the definition of a brush gun would be a rifle that's only effective at less than 100yds. Not a long range rifle like a .243 or something.

When I think brush gun, I think of shooting through a collection of small twigs/sticks. Not sure this captures that, but nonetheless I like your videos.

Great presentation. I always appreciate your knowledge and rational thought process.

Thank you very much this test was very informative thank you

Heck, the SlowMo Guys confirmed that a watermelon can deflect a full on tank round significantly!

I would advise to test 12 gauge steel or brass slugs, kind of wadcutter profile. For example, DDupleks Monolit. They are advertised to cut brush, it would be really interesting to see in comparison to rifles.

Surprising results. Thanks for this experiment. You have made my opinion much more gray in terms of the effectiveness of the ability of a brush gun to deflect less if it hits an obstacle obstruction on the way to the target.

Excellent as usual. Thank you.

So, Newton's first law of motion is still true ... every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force.

Interesting tests. Thanks. My grandfather was an Adirondack guide. He took wealthy hunters (usually NYC people) into the thick foliage of the mountains to hunt. He'd get a chuckle at their invariable choice of 30-06. He used a 35 Marlin. Hunting deer in the Adirondacks was almost always close range and through brush. His claim was that the 35 worked much better through the brush than a 30-06 or even a 30-30. My father however had a different tactic. He used a 22LR and shot the dear in the head. As a teen my dad was a great hunter. His claim to fame was taking his shots at under 10' :p Ultimately my dad became USAF special opps. One more story. My dad (18yrs old at the time) ran down a large buck in deep snow (on skis). I've got a photo of it somewhere - my grandfather took the picture. He grabbed the deer by the antlers and pulled it down into the snow. The deer submitted and just kind of gave up. He spent a bit of time face to face with the deer. To my grandfather's dismay my dad let the deer go. My dad was affected by this event and never hunted again. My grandfather was not moved by it at all. Always a hunter.

Brilliant...as expected. Thank you.

A well done video with a well spoken, knowledgable investigator.👍

the strips are on the thick end of a branch or something that would cause a deflection, as you said if something that thick is in the way of the target, it may not be an ethical shot. but I do get you already having them handy and repeatable. however next time I would place the strips at a 45-60 degree angle. a non straight impact on a barrier may cause more deflection. would be interesting to see if hitting a barrier straight on or at an angle changes the flight path significantly.

Back in my navy days, we never noticed any deflection of our 16” gun rounds..... btw how many grains is 3200lbs?

Francis E. Sell in his book, “Advanced Deer Hunting” did exhaustive test shooting through brush and Alders. The results are quite interesting. The winners were cartridges with a muzzle velocity of between 2100 and 2500 feet per second. Some examples are: 30-30, .300 Savage, .30-40 Krag, .444 Marlin. There are a number of new cartridges that fall into that velocity range such as the .350 Legend. Very interesting 🤔.

Iraq veteran 8888 has a 2 part series on this and its determined that big heavy bullets win hands down and he shoots at a lot longer range and about 25 yards of very thick brush.

Personally I find buckhorn sites accurate and easier to use than other types.

I would be curious to see the test repeated with a 35 Remington, or 45-70 loaded with hard-cast lead, shooting through brush rather than flat dry wood. Seems like a better test.

What about a heavy, slow moving thing like a 12 ga slug? That might not deflect much. Merry Christmas, Chris! I hope you and yours are well and that 2021 turns out to be an awesome year.

Appreciate your approach!

I would guess (common sense) that any kind of “deflection” would do just that..deflect. Like you said, hitting anything on its way to the target will destabilize the bullet and from there on, its anyones guess..it would also have something to do with the distance between the twig/branch and the final target..the further the target is from the deflection, the more distance the deflection. A branch closer to the target may not be that big of a deal, however if that branch is closer to the shooter, you might miss the target all together!

Faster Heavier = Less deviation

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too.

Iraq veteran 8888 had two videos also testing this. They tested quite a few calibers. Their tests suggested big and slow non-spitzer design worked better.

My brush guns is a .50 BMG-works well,punches through mild vegetation and usually drops my prey on the 1st shot

I'm a hunters ed instructor. Never in my ten years of teaching I have never once recommended shooting through an object. A brush gun is a short barreled, close to medium range rifle that allows for quick target acquisition, because in the thick woods of western Montana where I hunt. They're there then gone.

Liking these lever action videos!

I love the topic and result. I've often said that you will get deviation regardless of caliber. What I've found though also shows that when hitting small round branches, a .223 destabilizes way more than shooting through your 1 x 2's you used. Those are soft wood and due to the fact that they are smooth front and back, you get a lot less deviation from the .223. I shoot a .45-70 typically for deer hunting. The bullet you chose to test with was probably the worst of all the production bullets for this test, however. I shot my first buck with a .45-70 using the 300 gr. HP and it went in at .5" and came out the other side of the deer at about 1.5". That bullet is very soft and over-expands violently. I changed to a different bullet after that and haven't had a similar issue since. I use Hornady's 350 gr. RNFP and I find that whether hard cast lead or jacketed, this shape without the hp and thin jacket will do a much better job. The original .45-70 bullet was a .405 gr. bullet and as you go up in weight you also increase the sectional density, which has been shown to keep bullets penetrating and on track. I think the simple physics of inertia shows that the more mass an object has, the more difficult it is to force it off target still stands. The first doe I took was shot with a .30-40 Krag with a Winchester Powerpoint. I had a perfect target opportunity, but had to shoot through an opening in brush. I'd waited for the deer to move for 10 minutes, but it was holding tight. What I didn't see at the 75 yard range was that there was a small stick through the opening. The bullet that would have been a heart shot glanced rearward and ended up being a liver shot. The deer still only went 30 yards, but I was amazed at this result. Since I've switched to the .45-70 after that, I've never had any issue with glancing bullets and also, the bigger loads do tend to anchor the animal much better, IMO. I've since then shot about 40 deer during 28 years of hunting without a lost animal or miss. Due to my older eyes now, I do have a 2-5 x 32 compact scope on it for any shots over 25 yards. I also upgraded the sights to Tru-Glo fiberoptic sights which really make it easier in early and late light to use the iron sights. Anything you can do to make the outcome more sure is a positive. I will say this though also, I've seen people hit twigs while looking through a magnified optic, where it was inside the "focus plane" of the scope and you don't even see the twig in the optic. My good friend shoots a .270 and has also taken many deer without an issue for years. One time though, he was leaned on a fence post for support and didn't see a small grape vine hanging down about 4" from the muzzle. When he shot, that tiny object redirected his .270 to be a complete miss on the deer and he thought at first it was his scope having gotten bumped. When I came up for lunch, I saw him re-zeroing his rifle that we'd just tested the day before. When I ask him what happened and heard, we went back to the spot he shot and I saw the nick on the grape vine. I feel that anything that hits the bullet on the ogive obliquely, does a lot more re-direction than hitting objects closer to the actual target too. Thus the bigger flat bullets have less ogive and could be why you don't see as many of these types of deflection. Finally, I'll say this: Some properties that people have access to hunt on are ALL brush type shots in some parts of the country. Stating that someone should wait for a perfect broadside in a wide open field is just not possible. On my property, I do my best to get open shots, but it's also hilly and shooting up and down hills also affects the way ballistics go. I have seen people with a perfectly zero'd rifle miss shooting downhill. Does that mean you never take a shot at an animal that isn't exactly horizontal to you in an open space with no grasses, brush or vines? That seems to me to be a very narrow answer and one that doesn't make sense in the bigger picture. Do your best to make an quick, ethical kill and learn from mistakes, because no matter how much you try, adrenaline, cold, wind, elevation, brush or whatever you can think of can affect the outcome.

Tree branches aren't planed planks of wood. The shot that best represents actual field conditions is the shot on the edge of the board with the .45-70, and that does it poorly. The idea of a brush gun isn't to shoot through 5/8ths inch of wood, you're trying to shoot around the trees and branches. The idea of the brush gun is to give an edge while shooting though the inevitable tangle of twigs in thick brush that you can't even see while taking the shot. Go hunting in the woods where you can't see 50 yards for the brush and this concept becomes obvious.

Anecdotal I know but I was hunting with my father when I was a child in the hills of West By God Virginia. We snuck up on a pretty nice buck who was chasing his does. My father took his opportunity, shot the 12 gauge slug. What he didn't notice was the large vine in the way, threw the slug off course, and the wad following behind smacked the deer. We had thought we hit because of the Deers actions. But we looked, and no blood, no hair, and a little flatter than usual wad. I saw the chunk out of the vine and we figured out. A long winded way to say I agree, don't shoot through things to shoot things.

Your videos do so well capturing not only the mechanics but also the spirit of these ideas. Your summary on this perfectly nails the brush gun idea.

I freaking love this channel....