One of the biggest differences between “Calvinists” and “Arminians” is the willingness to accept that God’s word can outrun our limited human reasoning. You may find the full resource at: www.desiringgod.org/messages/t....
I don't understand this doctrine and maybe I never will, but I have no doubt that everything that happened in my walk with God was caused by Him. So in the end all the glory is His.
Calvinism is a cult that denies Jesus’ atonement and makes God responsible for sin and evil. It is also intellectually disingenuous; they pretend to be logical, but they fail to see that applying a human lens to God is insufficient.
It’s just heArtbreaking how ppl write fellow Christians off, because they’re Calvinist or Arminian, as not being brothers and sisters in Christ.. All I can say is, Arminian preachers and teachers, had me so lost, confused, for many years.. they told me I wasn’t saved because I didn’t do certain things, that I could loose my “free gift of salvation” because I failed God.. added baptism, tongues, works, to the cross.. Then God saved me, I could understand what scripture said, and nothing the Arminian preacher preached, was in there.. I believe God enables us to choose him.. the natural man hates the things of God, and none would choose him..How can a dead man choose to live? Did Lazarus say no LORD, I choose not to “come forth”? Thank God, He enabled me to choose him, and to serve him.. Gave me a heart that loves him, his word, and the desire to do all of the above!! If left in my natural state I would be lost to this day..
Akihika Yepthomi no that’s not my conclusion. The main point of what I said is that if God wants you he will have you. He’s God. I also believe that to be saved we must endure till the end. I think many people who fall away and become “unsaved” were never truly saved in the first place. Also many think they’re saved but are blinded by satan. And at the same time the word says in latter times many will fall away.
@@Romans--pe4yh lol I'm supposed to be studying right now too... but I agree, John Piper speaks in such a captivating and gentle way that allows my mind to take a break and rest in the Word of the Lord. I love listening to his his daily devotionals (Solid Joys) as I fall asleep. What a blessing.
I have been described/diagnosed by doctors as having ADHD. Thank the Lord that I realized He made me this way. So what if the worlds systems don’t fit w me! I am not like them! My sensitivity to spiritual issues needs to be attended to not forced into medicinal submission. I don’t need medicine to make me more like them or excuses for why I’m not like them. Be free from that label and see how God uses our ABOVE DEATH DISCERNMENT even if it’s hyperactive!!!!
If the devil didn't use a calming voice people would run and not swallow the heresy to their own destruction. Notice how calmly Piper says his god planned the Nazi death camps and his god plans the abuse of children. Yes so calm. He is Satan's master plan in action. Truth in Love
In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
My biggest issue with calvanism generally tends to be it's followers. (And yes, my wording there is intentional). John Piper is an amazing man and though I have theological differences with him I think he is the best preacher we have right now. He is gracious and boldly presents the truth. Other calvanists I talk to seem more interested in spreading Calvanism instead of Christ and are so hard hearted and ungracious with their legalistic approach to Scripture (again, unlike Piper), that is make my spirit grieve greatly to a point where I just can't stay around them. It's like they serve that theology more than Christ Himself and it's terrifying. Again, Piper is a breath of fresh air and the Holy Spirit within him encourages and convicts often when he preaches... and often times it's his mature and gracious manor in speaking that affects me just as often as the Word He is saying. I truly pray he is blessed with long quality health so he remains on this earth longer to preach His Word all the more.
Will Thorpe thanks for your rational comments. You are right, many Calvinists need to focus in spreading truth gospel to everyone around them. Everyone is not perfect, we need to change and set our hearts and priorities right
Will Thorpe I completely see what you are saying. I hear what these men are saying, and I believe it to be true, but doesn't seem to be tempered with love whatsoever.
To be fair, this is also true of at least just as many Armnians. Many are ungracious in their opposition to Calvinism and focused on that instead of Christ. It's always refreshing to encounter humble proponents of both positions.
I believe that as a fallen human being, born in sin, I did not have a choice but to give my life to Jesus Christ because of hearing the gospel in church this one Sunday, I felt total emptiness I screamed out to the pastor "I need Jesus Christ" everyone went silent, then the pastor called me up and asked me why, so I told everyone what I felt and new deep down in the pit of my stomach. From that day I gave my life to Him who died for my sin to redeem me unto the Father. I cried at that exact point because of the weight that was lifed off of my shoulders.I have done nothing to deserve the grace of a loving God, but because of his grace alone, through my faith alone in Jesus Christ alone I am saved.
I am not convinced that Calvanism is true and I would appreciate the people sharing with me the verses that they think demands that Calvanism be true. The scripture "Joacob I have loved and Easu I have hated" does not convice me. For example Jesus said "“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple." HATE your wife? What does this mean? It CLEARLY does not mean HATE as we think of it in English. We are also told "Husbands, love your wives". HATE in this context carries the concept of PREFERENCE. Christ has to come FIRST. So God PREFERRED the messiah to come through the family tree of Jacob. I think the Calvanists misunderstand this verse. I would be interested in hearing from my Calvanists friends with their BEST verse. Scripture first. Thank you in advance.
Before I became a parent I had a hard time understanding God’s relationship to us... after I became a mother I understand God and His love for us so much more. It also has helped me understand how God can grieve our sins but still love us, convict us but not condemn us, guide us but allow free will, and how He yearns for a relationship with us.
How would you define “free will?” Scripture teaches that those who sin are slaves to it and that freedom comes through Christ, not something inherent in us.
@@jacobstewart7915, God gave Adam and Eve 'free will'... After their Fall they died Spiritually , But God did not took away their 'free will'... We, the descendants of Adam and Eve inherit their ' sinful nature' but also inherit their 'free will' that was given by God... It is one of the BIG error of The Calvinists to teach that fallen man is totally depraved and cannot love and come to Jesus unless he is first regenerated...
Pastor John, What a wonderful story about the woman who lost her husband. She wanted the Rock, the Word of God. At 18 years of age, Dominic Aquila led me into the reformed faith, and he didn't even know he was doing it. That was in 1972, and freedom literally burst into a stilted Southern Baptist heart. I didn't fight it...... I did not argue with God, I ran to it with all my heart!!! BECAUSE I found out that God, Himself, wanted me!!!
Here is what I think what Piper was trying said: if you trust God's words (scripture) more than one'sl instinctual theology, you are more likely to accept God's sovereignty and His election. If you like the philosophy of men more than God's words and to satisfy your own seemingly rational desire, you are more likely to be a "free-willer". Personally I cried over God's unfathomable grace and love. I decided put my faith in God and his teaching.
More philosophical people tend toward Calvinism. You don’t even need a Bible to quickly come to a basic Calvinistic view of the world, the reason and logic just leads you there.
Thank you Damon for your response to my 2017 entry regarding Primitive Baptists. Now, after 5 more years of Spirit led study of God's inexhaustible word, by His grace, I continue to grow spiritually; a follower of Jesus, God the Son, and no other. God help all who perhaps have followed and defended a mere man's doctrine. Further study of the birth of Esau and Jacob and their narratives as revealed by God is worth it. Context matters. God never changes. JESUS SAVES.....whosoever believes Him!
Of course He saves whosoever believes in Him! Of course He does! Does John 3:16 say that ANYone can believe? No, it says WHOsoever....Think about that Vernona, get back with me if you feel so inclined.
@@doug2993ive heard it said ‘whoever believing’ is the proper translation. I need to learn greek and hebrew to see, but no doubt modern translations are still the trusted Word
No condition? 20:23 - "If you would just believe, if you would come, He would have you. Trust Him." So I must choose to believe and choose to come? If I'm predestined to be saved then aren't going to believe either way? Is that a choice?
Choice is an illusion in the eternal, but a reality in the finite. We live in the finite but perhaps get glimpses and hints at the eternal and it’s structures and truth. There seems to be a place for both our role in choosing Christ and Christ choosing us. Why does Jesus preach that the path is narrow? That many who called Him Lord will not enter the kingdom? But then preaches about “those who God chose” and off sheep and goats and predestined nature of humans? Jesus wants us to have faith in Him, and he saved us. This I know, but who enters His kingdom and not is not for me to decide and unclear how God decides it. I think we first need to better understand eternity, God, our perceptions/experience/cognitive psychology, etc to get a better understanding of free will and predestination
@@andrewwizard1577, I don't agree with you brother that we need perceptions/experience/cognitive psychology, etc to get a better understanding of free will and predestination... The answer are all in the bible... Please read the parable of 'Wheat and Tares' prayerfully and you will learn truths from this parable that both the Arminians and Calvinist do not know... It is in Matthew 13:24-43 (KJV)
reynaldo david I’ve reads this before, Armenians have read this before, Calvinists have read this before. Truly understanding and interpreting this is what’s difficult and you can’t claim to 100% know that your interpretations 100% correct. Also, what is this idea of Jesus sleeping while the enemy sowed evil people among the good people? How does God get tricked by the devil? Is that possible? These are parables and even harder to fully understand that laws given, that’s the point of Jesus teaching in parables. The full truth runs so deep, and we can only get deeper and deeper in our interpretation with Jesus’ parables and still never fully understand them
@@andrewwizard1577, You said: [[ Also, what is this idea of Jesus sleeping while the enemy sowed evil people among the good people? How does God get tricked by the devil? Is that possible? ]] =>>> RESPONSE: Who said that Jesus was sleeping? and God was tricked by the devil? What a foolish Question... So, did the serpent tricked God by successfully tempting Adam and Eve? I don't say that I understand 100% the parable,But I know that I understand the parable enough to refute you, and the Calvinist, and the Arminians... If you don't agree with me, Please answer me, Why then Jesus told some of the pharisees, that their father is the devil... John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of ''''your father the devil'''', and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. =>>> TRUTH s beautiful and simple... While LIE is ugly and very complicated....
I have to smile and almost laughed. Every time I hear, brother Piper use that illustration of what he didn’t seminary. It reminds me of what I did once in seminary. When I was confronted with God sovereignty before the foundation of the Earth, and now. And I took my pencil And disagreement with my professor, and threw it on the ground and did the same thing.. I am so thankful that 30 years later God showed me through his word of his sovereignty Romans Romans Romans, how I love this book
I’ve been stuck between both views for years. I grew up in an Arminian church, worried about being left behind, losing my salvation, until in preparing a message I came upon the conclusion that salvation could not be lost. I was reprimanded by my then youth pastor. After this I began to discover the differences in between the two major views, but can’t bring myself to fully accept either one.
Calvinists and Arminians both have bible verses to support their beliefs. It shouldn't matter what view you agree with as long as you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Updated thoughts 2 years later: this is not a salvation issue, but it is a very important issue. A few issues I have with Calvinism is that it makes God the author of sin and evil, removes human responsibility, and gives the non believer a great excuse for their disbelief. If there is no libertarian free will, how can there be human responsibility? How can a total depraved reprobate human being, predestined to hell to glorify God, be without excuse for their disbelief?
I love what you said. I have come to literally desire, to one day see Calvin and Arminian in heaven talking to each other and regretting of bringing such a mess to the church. They might say to each other: we lost so much time in debates and becoming famous, instead of obeying God's command to preach the Gospel to everyone!
You making a decision for Christ. Make a decision, you sinful wretched man. Your God died on the cross so you could make a decision. Well I just don't know what to choose. I guess I'll choose to let Jesus, poor Lil Jesus, into my heart . Yeh come on in Jesus but not until I let you . He died on the cross so you could decide not to let him in. Some people choose this no? So his perfect sacrifice was in vain. Sorry but I think you are dangerously mistaken and pride and arrogance still reign Supreme in your view of Jesus and his power and perfect sinless almighty self
I think arminians who are saved will see in heaven that they are the elect, that they are saved by grace alone, that God is sovereign. They will glorify God for that. They will praise God when they know that in fact their salvation rested entirely in the work of Christ and not in their own righteousness!!! They wasted time fearing that they would lose their salvation, when their assurance was in Christ alone. But that won't matter because we'll all be praising our God. In Heaven.
@@andryrakotomalala6219 I’m not a Calvinist but I believe Christians are elect, God is sovereign, we are saved by grace through faith alone, and it’s about what Christ has done for us, not about our own righteousness
Wow, I’m really struggling through this. In a way I’m happy as my salvation is starting to feel more secure, but I’m possibly even more disturbed by one of my nagging thoughts. That being, why the punishment for non believers is SO severe. Like John I had an altercation with one of my Bible college professors when I expressed my discomfort regarding people being destined to hell.
@@jeremyjohnson4106 how is that the answer when a person is deemed without excuse and due to total depravity is unable to see things another way? That is the coldest view of God I've seen to this point.
I would suggest looking into Craig in his dealing with molonism. Paradoxes of sovereignty and free will seem much more likely than the calvanists boxing in of sovereignty
@@kyledanner436 If it's all about free will I would be literally scared about my salvation. If verses like John 6:39 were not in Scripture, I would have been terrified. So, I say thank God it is not all about free will. Also, I know that my three little kids will be thankful one day that I didn't leave it up to their free will to decide what's right for them.
His choosing of Jacob over Esau was how he planned to use them in this world but didn't pertain to salvation. How are we to compare someone's eternity to how God deals with individuals in this life?
That’s not what Paul was saying in Roman’s 9. Pauls point was that God is sovereign in all the choices He makes, whether it is Jacob over Esau, Issac over Ishmael, etc etc. and it has nothing to do with us or what we will do and everything to do with His choice and that includes salvation because that’s what Roman’s 8 leading into 9 is about - salvation.
The whole point of Roman’s 9 is the Jews were upset over the gentiles being included, being saved and jews were being hardened. Paul makes that clear in the beginning of Roman’s 9. Then Paul goes into God being sovereign in that choice. As he was with the examples Paul used. God is sovereign in the hardening of whom He wills and the mercy and compassion to whom He shows it to.
2 peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
AMEN. Which PROVES unequivocally that not EVERYTHING that God "wills" comes to pass. Of COURSE we have "free will" and absolute control over our own choices! IF we did NOT have control over our own choices, we could NOT "justly" be held RESPONSIBLE for said choices and the outcomes thereof... IF the course of every action was "predetermined by God", He could not REWARD obedience and PUNISH iniquity. If you TRULY want to attribute "absolute control of everything" to God, you have to make HIM the Author of some VERY sick, twisted and satanic things. If people believe it was God Who wills partial-birth abortions, sodomy and heinous decapitations of innocent people then you have a strange and wicked false God... My God is PURE, HOLY, RIGHTEOUS... My God is LIGHT and in Him is NO DARKNESS AT ALL.
@@lightisgreaterthandarkness ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-cr1bQu4jh44.html The Apostle Peter is writing to believers when he pens this passage. The imperative word to be understood is the word 'any' and the word 'willing'. Having an understanding of Free Will is essential. In short, it is broken into and used in three different instances. Decreetive Will - God Sovereignty Preceptive Will - Gods Law Will of Disposition - God's emotion
Merci Beaucoup thank you brother. Hallelujah and Amen. When I looked into this Calvinist stuff I was truly grieved in my spirit. So God hates people and predestineds hell, that would mean if a baby is not one of the elect the baby would go to hell that is the only logical way to carry predestination through. “For God so loved the world (Calvinist add: not really the whole world. He didn’t mean that...just the elect) that gave His only Son so who so ever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. God hates and sends babies to torment. God only loves the elect. In this way His Glory can be revealed. Everything I’ve listened to about this seems arrogant and Pharisee like. Who are you to demand that you alone know the mind of God? Why do missions and try to reach people for the Lord...just drop pamphlets from the air and the elect will show up. Can you even say God loves you or God is Love to anybody yes but only the elect the rest He hates
The "any" Peter is referring to is an "any of us (the elect)". He is not speaking of any person in existence. So the "any" is in line with the preceding "us-ward". The "us" is the church or those destined to be in the church. Peter's epistle was not to the world, but was very much 'in house': it was to the believers, and persecuted believers at that. Accordingly, Paul declares that the children of non-believers are "unclean", even though they haven't 'made a decision' with regard to God. For a full and proper treatment of 2 Pe 3:9, refer to colossians.freeforums.net/thread/16/exposition-2-peter-3-9
Read "What Love is This" by Dave Hunt, published by The Berean Call in 2004. It is a definitive rendering of the Calvinist position and will provide the necessary background and the Biblical justification that anyone who is serious about this matter needs to understand in order to make an informed decision.
Yes? The book that was "The worst I have ever read" assessed by Phil Johnson? D. Hunt didn't shy from quoting godless atheists and other anti Christian sources in it... Yes, excellent book, depending on for whom. Definitely a very very bad understanding of Doctrines of Grace.
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God. Not as a result of works so that no one may boast." Let's break this verse down because I think it is a perfect explanation of salvation. First of all, we have been saved by grace. This is the element Calvinism tends to focus on, and I absolutely agree with it. The only reason we are able to be saved in the first place is that God showed us grace. Without that, we are sinners doomed to an eternity in hell. There is no argument there. The question then becomes, "Who receives God's grace and how?" According to the Calvinist view, people are saved only if God chooses to save them. There is no choice in the matter. God selected who He would save, and there is no changing that. The issue with this arises when you consider the fact that there are unsaved people. If God has the power to save anybody He chooses, why doesn't He? Frankly, I see this issue as unresolvable without some acknowledgment of free will. The idea that a perfectly loving God would choose to send countless people to hell with no chance of salvation, only because God Himself chose to cause mankind to sin (which is another necessary conclusion if free will is discounted) is entirely contradictory and is a completely justified reason for someone to turn away from the faith. This is where the second part of the verse comes in. While grace is the only thing that can save us, there is a reason that Paul included this mention of faith. The Arminian view accepts that salvation is only possible because of God's grace; however, they disagree with the notion that God only offers that grace selectively. The offer of grace is a free offer to all. This works with the fact that God is absolutely loving, but the question now is "If grace is freely offered to all, why isn't everybody saved?" The answer is faith. Faith, by necessity, is a choice. Yes, God makes it possible for us to have faith through the work of the Holy Spirit on our hearts, but He does not force us to have faith. As a visualization, imagine you are hanging from the edge of a cliff. You start to slip towards your certain death when a man calls out to you from above and reaches out his hand. If you reach out to grab his hand, you will survive because you made the choice to accept salvation; but if you don't, you will die because you chose to reject the offer. This is obviously not a perfect metaphor, but hopefully, it gets the idea across. The idea of free will is also supported in Genesis. God gave Adam and Eve dominion over the earth. The word dominion means to have sovereignty or control, and control implies the existence of choice. In being given control over the earth, Adam and Eve were given a choice. They could follow God's perfect plan, or they could choose to do things their own way (sin). This idea of free choice makes it possible to accept the existence of sin without being forced to accept the idea that our perfectly good God caused it to exist. It is also for this reason that faith is a necessary part of salvation. We chose to turn from God's will, so we must choose to return to it. "Faith equals repentance plus trust," is how a pastor described faith to me once. God alone offers the grace we need for salvation. No work we can do can ever earn us that grace; it is offered simply because God loves us. In order to receive that grace, we have to acknowledge and repent of our sins, and we have to put our trust in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Without both of these, faith is not genuine, we do not truly accept God's offer of grace, and we remain unsaved. I also want to address the issue of losing one's salvation. Many people have an issue with this, as it leaves room for uncertainty in regards to salvation. I sympathize with these feelings, as for a long period I frequently questioned my own salvation. However, what I would like to remind you of is God's patience and understanding. He is under no misconception that we are a stubborn, forgetful, and sinful people who struggle to do what is good. God has patience with those who seek to do His will and be transformed in the image of Christ. As long as one has that desire, they will not lose their salvation. The only way for one to lose their salvation is, once again, by choice. If someone outright refuses to do the will of God out of the genuine desire of their heart, they will have committed apostasy and lost their salvation. This is the only way to lose salvation. This may sound terrifying to some, and you may even be second-guessing yourself right now, but take heart. If you are worried that you are in danger of committing apostasy then you are not in danger of committing it. If you care about not committing apostasy then you still have the desire to do the will of God, and your salvation is assured. God knows our hearts, and He knows and rewards genuine faith. To summarize, God is the only one who can save us from our sins, but we have to make the choice to return to Him. It is possible to turn away from Him again, but only those who completely reject Him are in danger of losing their salvation. I hope this helps someone to understand the truth about Arminianism and Calvinism. Ultimately, both of these views are not far from the truth. I believe that Arminianism is closer, but both views are often presented in extreme ways that make them appear heretical when neither is entirely irreconcilable. If Calvinism allows you to feel secure in your faith, then I praise God that it does, but I simply ask that you consider that maybe your faith is stronger because you are choosing to put more trust in God.
When man fell, humanity was doomed in itself. We have been corrupted. We should have been wiped out then and there. We rebelled just as Satan did, and if Satan deserves to go to hell, then so does his children. It is the grace of God, that he chose some of us to be saved, not all, because we know many are going to hell. Not one of us chooses God, because we are dead in sin, not only because of the original sin, but because man chooses to do so. Adam and Eve, didn't know sin when they chose to disobey God, yet they did, with their own free will. Man is accountable for his actions 100%, God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to do so. It is just that we should all go to hell, because of our own disobedience and rebellion against God, yet because of His mercy, for His glory to be shown, He chose some of us to be saved.
@@elle5020 man is "dead" (as in separated from God) like the prodigal son was. He "came to his senses" and returned to his father. Man is NOT dead as in Lazarus. (Until we actually depart this earth) God spoke w Cain while he was "unregenarate"
To all of you free will libertarians.... Does the God you worship have libertarian free will? Is He free to do otherwise? Is He free to sin? Does His nature determine His choices? Fallen man defines freedom as the ability to rebel or obey, to believe or to not believe. God defines freedom as "willing servitude to God" see John 8:34-36, freedom from sin, free to serve Him! Will man posses libertarian free will in heaven and or the new earth? I think not, he will not be free in his glorified state to rebel and sin against God, he will be free from sin, from its presence, dominion and power! The creator defines freedom differently than His fallen creatures, "If the Son sets you free you will be free indeed"!!
JCIL I have a feeling this conversation is going nowhere.....I was not "saved" within the context of Calvinism, but Pentecostalism, which is Arminian, and Billy Graham style general, Baptist theology. I gravitated to Calvinism, in part due to my salvation experience of God seeking me, chasing me down if you will, I was not consciously seeking Him, and also because of my personal study of the scriptures, I think Calvinism best represents the comprehensive teaching of scripture on the subject of salvation! I was not raised in a Calvinist household, nor did I attend a Calvinist church, I came to the realization that Calvinism best represents the total picture of what it means "to be saved by the grace of God"! And yes I am one of God's elect, not by any worthiness on my part, but by God's love for me and His gracious mercy shown to me, an ill-deserving rebellious sinner!! Hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from.
JCIL I think that the emphasis in the bible is on election and or predestination to salvation, God eternally plans to save some (many) for Himself, to create a new people in Christ examples are many, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, 9-11 Ephs 1-3, 2These 2:13-14, 2Ti 1:9 & 2:10 etc so then God does not plan or predetermine to save all but to pass others by and leave them in their fallen state of rebellion against Him, enemies of God, I think that "at least" this much can be said, (without getting in to the finer points of Calvinism & the decrees)...so if you want to say that He predestined some to hell by passing them by, or by not electing them to salvation, then so be it, His mercy & grace is displayed in the elect, His just wrath is displayed in the non elect or reprobate...I completely understand that this can be a hard (harsh) truth to embrace but I believe it to be biblical! No one is saved against their will in Calvinism, but God makes them (us) willing to be saved, willing to believe. The non elect are in a willing state of rebellion and they remain that way, willing, enemies of God I am married, just shy of 58 years old, and I have one stepson.
Romans 9 Paul lays it out the best that he can. But who are you, O man,to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? We cannot understand the depth of the wisdom and glory of God within our human minds. In any attempt to do so and rationalize it to fit our understanding, we risk questioning God's sovereignty. God loves us first. We love because He first loves us. In His foreknowledge before the foundation of the world, God knew who would come to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Yes we have our own free will given to us by God, and everyone is ABLE to come to salvation, that does not mean that everyone will. God elected the nation and people of Israel to receive revelation of Him. I can understand why it is difficult to grasp the concept of predestination and I do not agree with some hyper calvinists who would say "welp God will save the elect so I don't need to evangelize" because that's not the answer at all, but to act like God reacts to anything man does is not the nature of God. It's almost a role reversal as Piper says in an attempt to compartmentalize God in order to make us feel as if we can control everything about our lives when day to day I'm presented evidence that I wouldn't want to be in complete control. I'm so thankful for God and His sovereignty and His election. Election is a very sound Biblical doctrine and you cannot disprove it whatsoever because it is consistent throughout Scripture.
Well God gave me a brain and let’s face if your teachers hadn’t questioned and searched and tried to find the mind of God you wouldn’t have Calvinist belief. And yet you use that scripture against people to keep them from asking questions about your doctrine. Not Cool
Jacob Jackson, by your comments you seem quite knowledgeable in Calvinism. Is the concept of Calvin's doctrine of double-predestination aligned with the Bible perspective of predestination in relation to salvation. Your comments please. Thanks.
I must strongly disagree.The potter with the is perfect example if he make a vessel for dishonor use does he throw that vessel out or does he refashion it?Calvinist seems to always quote Rom 9:13. I say well let's look at the verse itself after that go to where came from but first Go to Gen 25:19-25:23 then look at Mal 1.:2-3. Just my opinion of course.
Well I'm being convinced. I can't, and wont, see scriptures and say, NO NO NO that can't mean that! Even though I find myself thinking how can that mean that? Actually I think I am convinced, I just don't know how to ....umm....reconcile all scriptures together. Except to fall back on the mystery of God, which I think is the only place to fall back to! Romans 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Don't worry; if you are confused it is because your were decreed to be confused from before the creation for God's glory... Or Calvin was wrong, and they have some really good speakers on their side.
God led me to Calvinism. And I believe He did so because he knew I couldn’t believe under the Arminianistic beliefs I was raised under. Free will was too much for me to handle. I would literally wake up each morning unsure of my salvation. It would torment me all day. It still does. I have to immerse my mind in these scriptures in order to actually “believe.” Thank you John Piper for this message. I can’t believe it has taken this long for me to discover you on YT.
How do you know you are in line to go to Heaven and not in line to go to Hell? It doesn’t matter how good you are, or how bad you are, you can’t change what God picked for you. At least that’s how I understand Calvinist doctrine. You could go to church all day, bring millions to the Bible and still end up in Hell.
@@brandondriver99 Do you see what you’re doing? He just shared how Calvinism doctrine led Him to a relationship with Christ as it explained it to him to understand. And you come in here trying to attack instead of praising God.
If I were to sum up the sovereignty of God as king; as I see in the Bible, into a philosophical truth statement. One that I believe challenges the thoughts on the “Free Will” of man; and instead exalts the sovereign decree of God, as the ultimate free being! Well, this is it. “Space-time! (Past, present, future.) Along with all “creation”, isn't some self-existing free flowing entity. But rather, events, wholly dependent on the sovereign decree of the Triune God. According to His holy divine will and purpose! To the praise of His glorious attributes and the exaltation of the gospel.” That's my Calvinism...
zane lyons, Can you please explain what the Statement below means, and if you agree with it? Thank you.... ''God arranges all things by His Sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify Him by their destruction.''
@@52RGD _"Can you please explain what the Statement below means, and if you agree with it?"_ You should cite your sources. The statement comes from John Calvin, _Institutes of the Christian Religion,_ Book 3, chapter 23, section 6. The chapter is titled "Refutation of the false accusations with which this doctrine has always been unjustly burdened," and the section is titled "Second objection: the doctrine of election takes guilt and responsibility away from man". Calvin uses section 6 to lay out the objection, then spends section 7-9 refuting it. So yeah, I agree with Calvin, this is a common objection, so much so that people nowadays actually use this very passage to imply that Calvin taught it rather than reveal that Calvin wrote this to establish the objection before providing his response.
here's the final word on this matter: Deuteronomy 29:29 The Message God, our God, will take care of the hidden things but the revealed things are our business. It’s up to us and our children to attend to all the terms in this Revelation.
Why is it so hard to just believe that God chose His elect for a specific purpose(like he chose the prophets & disciples) but also give the opportunity for anyone outside of the elect to be saved? Idk why Calvinist make it so unbelievably difficult.
This is how I also view it. Also, Jacob I have loved and Essau I have hated. Does not mean God just hated Essau. It just showed he had more favor over Jacob. Also, it says, there are 2 nations inside Rebekahs womb. That easily tells us that God was speaking of Jews and Gentiles. The Jews were Gods elect, but later on we find that the inheritance is then granted to the other "nation" as well. Jesus in the New Testament said, if you do not hate your mother or father, you are not worthy of me. But we know according to scripture that we must honor our mother and father. So was Jesus saying to hate our parents? Or was he saying that we should not love them more than we love Him?
The Book of Acts tells us that, because of Jesus' death and resurrection, ALL men are commanded to repent and believe. Also, 1 Timothy 2: 1 - 4 exhorts believers to pray for ALL men because God desires that ALL men be saved. Why would we pray for ALL men if God only destined SOME to be saved. Calvinism blatantly denies the Gospel, which is "For God so loved the WORLD (all men), that He gave His only begotten Son (for ALL men), that WHOSOEVER (ANYONE of ALL the WORLD) believes on (puts their trust in) Him shall HAVE eternal life." Arminianism also denies the Gospel because it denies that a man born of the Spirit cannot "die." It denies that one who is born of God HAS eternal life. One must know and be confident and steadfastly assured that they HAVE eternal life, lest they believed in vain. The very Gospel that we preach is either a promise from God that we can be assured of, or it is something else. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are blatantly false gospels. The ONLY foundation a true believer can build on is the true Gospel. All others are building in vain and will lead to destruction. If anyone doubts he can be saved or doubts that salvation is secure because of Christ's finished work has a false gospel. There is no need for anyone to even try to learn and study the Word of God if they do not stand firm in the Gospel message with absolute assurance of the faithfulness of God to complete the work He started in them. If the Holy Spirit is the SEAL (security) and the EARNEST (guarantee) of one's inheritance, why are these people believing in another gospel? The very reason for water baptism is to make a public confession that one believes they have died with Christ and WILL be resurrected to live with Him! If you believe you can lose salvation, you deny the very Gospel that you say can save! The Gospel never condemned anyone, but a false gospel is self condemning. If you build a gospel on the foundation of doctrine, the result is a false gospel. The ONLY sure foundation we can build on is the Gospel, so I strongly urge ALL men to not try to build before they know they have the ONLY sure foundation. If you don't have the Gospel right, everything else you know, don't know, or think you know is useless and false. Believe the promise of God, as Abraham did, or don't. THAT is the only choice you have! Both Calvinism and Arminianism are false gospels that must be warned about.
Why do Calvinists overlook the word "Foreknew"? The destiny God has in store for us is based on His foreknowledge (those He foreknew, He predestined...). That's why Jesus says "Many are called but few are chosen"... because God foreknew who would believe. Also, John Piper says "I have mysteries in my theology". If there are "mysteries" (i.e. things John cannot explain), then why can't he accept (whether or not he can explain it) the fact that the scripture clearly and repeatedly puts forth the existence of God's sovereignty alongside man's responsibility?
Neal Wright, Predestined can be placed before or after Foreknow because they are independent... God can Predestined without using His Foreknowledge... Those who are chosen are the elect.. Only the Elect are Predestined since the foundation of the world to be saved...
PLEASE read these verses to the end and you'll grow closer in Christ to another level. 🎚️❤️ I SURELY DID!!! GOD HAS CHOSEN HIS CHOSEN ELECT OUT OF THE WORLD AND GIVEN TO JESUS BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD 🌎 THE SAVED Matthew 25:34 then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, COME, YE BLESSED OF MY FATHER, INHERIT THE KINGDOM PREPARED FOR YOU FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD 🌎 John 17:5-6 and now, O FATHER, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD 🌍 WAS. 6 I HAVE MANIFESTED (REVEALED) MY NAME UNTO THE MEN WHICH THOU GAVE ME OUT OF THE WORLD 🌍 (His chosen elect): thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. John 17:24 FATHER, I will that they also, WHOM THOU HAS GIVEN ME, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, WHICH THOU HAS GIVEN ME: FOR THOU LOVEST ME BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD 🌎. Ephesians 1 4-5 ACCORDING AS GOD HAS CHOSEN US IN JESUS BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD 🌎, to be holy and without blame before Jesus in God. 5 HAVING PREDESTINATED US UNTO THE ADOPTION OF CHILDREN BY JESUS CHRIST TO HIMSELF, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURES OF HIS WILL. Ephesians 1:11 IN WHOM ALSO WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, BEING PREDESTINATED ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNCIL OF HIS OWN WILL. 1 Corinthians 2:7 BUT WE SPEAK THE WISDOM OF GOD IN A MYSTERY, EVEN THE HIDDEN WISDOM, WHICH GOD ORDAINED BEFORE THE WORLD 🌎 ONTO OUR GLORY. 2nd Thessalonians 2:13 but we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brother beloved of the Lord, BECAUSE GOD HAS FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN YOU TO SALVATION THROUGH SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT TO BELIEVE OF THE TRUTH: ✝️ 2 Timothy 1:9 WHO HATH SAVED US, AND CALLED US WITH A HOLY CALLING, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, Free Will CHOICE in the flesh, which is 100% heresy or false teaching. Jesus spoke against it in Matthew 7:21-23 -- 2 Peter 2: 9-10 (LOST) -- Titus 1:7- 8 (SAVED) BUT ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, WHICH WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD 🌎 BEGAN. Hallelujah Titus 1:2 AND HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE, WHICH GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, PURPOSED BEFORE THE WORLD 🌎 BEGAN. So everything was planned and sealed before God said let there be light. GENESIS 1:1 1 Peter 1:20 WHO VERILY WAS FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD 🌎, BUT WAS MANIFEST (REVEALED) IN THESE LAST TIMES FOR YOU. This is why God’s thoughts N ways are totally different than ours. THE CROSS Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the Earth shall worship him, WHOSE NAMES ARE 🚫 NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB 🐑 SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD 🌎 The cross was PRE-destinated in God's plan for his glory. Romans 8:20 21 and 29 30 that's what Calvinism is all about PRE-destination to His chosen elect. THE LOST Revelation 17:8 The Beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the Earth shall wonder, WHOSE NAMES WERE NOT 🚫 WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD 🌎, when they behold the Beast that was, and is not, and yet is. So if you believe in what people call FREE WILL CHOICE, which is not found anywhere in the Bible. IN FACT, JESUS SPOKE AGAINST IT IN MATTHEW 7:21-23 Just because you say Lord Lord does not get you into the kingdom of heaven, BUT THOSE THAT DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. GOD'S WILL IN SPIRIT, NOT FREE WILL CHOICE IN THE FLESH. 22 And many will say unto ME in that day, Lord Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name cast out DEVILS 👿 and DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? (CUZ THAT'S ALL IT IS IS WORKS IN THE FLESH) 23 THEN JESUS WILL SAY UNTO THEM, DEPART FROM ME, YOU THAT WORK INIQUITY, I NEVER KNEW YOU. 👿🥵😭 CAST INTO HELL FOREVER, WHERE THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. MATTHEW 8:12 PLEASE WATCH BOTH OF THESE SITES ON RU-vid AND PASS THEM ON. Calvinism in a nutshell by John MacArthur Responding to the Will of God
Calvinist believe this is referring to a general calling. There are many people who will be called to come to Christ by other humans but won’t come to faith.
We don't overlook "foreknew" as to know or foreknow is not the same as foreknowledge. In both the old and new Testament the word is used to express intimacy, love, favour or choosing. Look a a Greek lexicon if you have doubts. Gen 4:1 "Adam KNEW Eve his wife and she conceived.." Amos 3:2 "Only you have I KNOWN from all the families of the earth...: Luke 1:34 "Then Mary said unto the angel, how shall this be, seeing I KNOW not a man" Romans 11:2 "God has not rejected his people whom he FOREKNEW" Its assumed that God foresees peoples actions (to believe or reject) which the text does not say. It says he foreknew persons not actions. This is not the only word that is misunderstood as "Firstborn" in scripture doesn't always mean the first one born.
Since in the beginning the devil is trying to separate man from God, and man to other man. Thank you for your sermon. We are all the byproducts of the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Sometimes I wonder if Jesus looks down at us pitiful souls, and then looks at our Father and says "Look, these Pharisees and Saducees are at it again".
Your words make zero sense .Pharisees and Saducees were against Jesus They worked together to kill him . All scripture is given by God for rebuke and correction . Love shouts the truth . It is Free will choice to believe or not to . . Jesus argue me the truth with those in a lie Jesus even took a whip to some .Paul argued with those in s lie . Go read what Paul said to the Galatians or about Alexander the coppersmiths . Seem you do not understand ... Jay that said Calvinist are much like Pharisees and Saducees all in s lie .
@@danephillips It is obvious that you believe you have a command of the scriptures. Unfortunately it appears that you missed the point. In scripture we learn that their were two, competing Jewish sects that believed they had ownership of the truth. I did not mean that people today are literally pharisees or saducees, but rather that calvinists and armenians resemble them in that they both believe they are right, and are constantly babbling on and debating the issue. In the meantime there are people who are lost and need saved, but can't be led to Christ because these religious "scholars" are to busy complicating the truth.
JayLee854 The Pharisees and Sadducees were against Jesus and against the truth . Calvinism in that sense they have a false gospel and a false Jesus All of Their tulip is utter reprobate . Armenians gospel doctrines is not contrary to biblical gospel or the biblical Jesus . Sadly you are unwilling to know this or unable . God only know what you think is truth
@@danephillips whats the lie in calvinism? God knows all? He alone is to thank for our salvation? We did nothing to deserve it? Holy Spirit has prompted us to believe? Cannot lose our Salvation? Predestined? All biblical.
I know exactly what you mean, and how you feel. I was taught (and myself taught as a Sunday School teacher) that old "traditional" theology where pastors by the thousands are attempting to compel people to make themselves righteous enough for God to save them. That is, God will save them only if they [do] something first. Anything "good" that we do can be done only if God FIRST changes our hearts to do them.
@@77ronboy Thank you for your reply. And even though I learned late in life (and still learning) about this wonderful, great, & sovereign Lord. I am eternally thankful that He did not pass me by, but graciously allowed me to know Him more fully. God bless
@@RanierMedic We are saved by GRACE, but not through anything "we" do, but solely by what God has done. If we were saved by something "we" have done, then God hasn't saved us - we have actually saved ourselves.
@@MichaelTheophilus906 Using the example of Reformers (Calvinists) being puppets is idiotic. Puppets do not have minds, nor souls, nor hearts. The main difference, simply put, between Reformers (Calvinists) and Arminians is that Reformers being it is God who saves without any help from those being saved, and Arminians believe that we must do something to give God justification for saving those He saves, which means converts have actually saved themselves. There is no Scripture that supports Arminian teachings. Those who support that are simply ignorant of Scripture.
It is God who opens eyes to believe this truth about Him being the Supreme in all things. To Him be all the glory for His glorious grace and love to the undeserving and granted them peace and hope in believing through Christ the greatest Treasure!
As someone who leans Arminian, I definitely would agree that "it doesn't make sense" isn't an adequate argument(though not without some value). The suggestion that exegesis is strictly behind Calvinism does not sit with me, however. Largely, my belief that the word did not bring me to calvinism came naturally having read it, while I was shocked the first time my father suggested otherwise when we were reading the same passage. I would hardly simplify these differences to "this side believes the Bible, this side doesn't listen to it". There are really good videos pointing out the biblical reading that sees the same verses differently, so I won't break it down but suggest people listen to several speakers on the other side of the argument(which is what I'm doing by listening to this video, by the way-so I'm not asking anyone to do something I wouldn't).
My question is why we follow a philosophical perspective from a guy who was born in the 16th century? The father told us all about himself before this guy was born.
It’s real simple Brothers & Sisters. Jesus tells us that “ no one can come to Me unless the Father draws them. “ Our mighty God knows all hearts, He knew You Before Creation & He knew Then who were the “elect” & who would Reject Him. He’s Perfect, Righteous, & All Knowing and no human being can hide their heart from God. Amen. 🙏
It has been written elsewhere he desires all to be saved, whosoever believes, he wants all to be saved. I can't see how you can ignore this. It is plainly written. Comments welcome.
So I just want to be clear, God could save people, He is the only one who could, He simply just chooses not to save them. He wants them to be tortured. I know the text seems to say that (Romans 9), but then how do we square that with Paul's prayer for people to be saved, for boldness, for open doors, who cares? Why would he care? Why pray, does it make a difference? If God wants people tortured they get tortured, if God wants them saved they get saved. This is the problem. Why does Paul write things that seem to totally contradict the idea "God wants some people tortured." Paul says: "I become all things to all people that I by all means save some." Does he really believe that there is any free choice, that prayer and our actions make a difference, does he believe that seeking to be Christ to others somehow mistakenly believing that it is already rigged? Or are you saying the game isn't rigged? That our prayers, our actions, our appeal make any difference and yet it doesn't really because none of it matters? Because if all is predestined, why pray? If I pray for people in my community does it make any difference? It isn't just that they don't have a choice, we have no impact do we? You mentioned preaching the gospel, why? If God wants them saved they are going to be saved whether they hear it or not right? You say it is good news for hopeless people, but only if they win the God lottery right? If they win the torture lottery then too bad. If someone knows can you tell me where John addresses this? The question: How do you know you will be a believer tomorrow morning? If you are chosen then it is God, if you are to be roasted it is God. At the core: It is simply untrue "God wills none perish" if Calvinism is true He wishes a bunch perish yes?
God can use prayer as a means to fulfill His will. Like a parent offering for a child to help out with something, those in Christ have a privilege of participating in this process. God commands us to evangelize as well. What a privilege this is! Also, God doesn’t want people to be tortured. He created humans for His good pleasure. The fault is on humans for choosing to sin. The Bible says that God doesn’t delight in these things.
I am not convinced that Calvanism is true and I would appreciate the people sharing with me the verses that they think demands that Calvanism be true. The scripture "Joacob I have loved and Easu I have hated" does not convice me. For example Jesus said "“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple." HATE your wife? What does this mean? It CLEARLY does not mean HATE as we think of it in English. We are also told "Husbands, love your wives". HATE in this context carries the concept of PREFERENCE. Christ has to come FIRST. So God PREFERRED the messiah to come through the family tree of Jacob. I think the Calvanists misunderstand this verse. I would be interested in hearing from my Calvanists friends with their BEST verse. Scripture first. Thank you in advance.
In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
I encourage you to listen to RC Sproul's 30 min talk on this very subject as well as on that very passage. On his podcast Renewing Your Mind, entitled 'Limited Atonement' It is also available online
We need to read - believe & understand and do the written word Of truth - shared to us from the Holy Spirit. And make it work by faith. stop winds of doctrine. Do Acts 1:8
As with most systems, they are rooted in actual scriptures. The problem is not the scriptures but rather the mixing of eisegesis with exegesis. The other problem with adopting systems is the tendency of human nature to defend the entire system at the cost of eisegesis of part. Election and free will are not mutually exclusive terms and both are biblical.
Johnathan Pandullo Because He is God.... “He creat everything to His pleasure!” “ Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.” Revelation 4:11
True, I sinned too much still I was elected, but I was happy to be saved because I had hope I will be one day I spent 10 years of my life looking for God and I did many sins during the search. Thank you Jesus
@@mediaistheenemy personally, only you will know and nobody else will know for you, in my experience I had gone into a lot of sinful things and dark places. But I was drawn in by the father and when I accepted him into my life he told me “ even as hard you tried to run from me, I still knew your heart and who you are and you belong to me no matter what”
I am Arminian. Every Calvinist preacher I listen to, I have never heard them say that any of their family members were unsaved. So it would seem that whole families are unconditionally elected? Would you struggle with your Calvinistic belief if you had 4 children and only two were saved, or would you say “well God predestined two of my children to be of the elect before the foundation of the world, but two he predestined to eternal damnation.”. Can you honestly say you would be ok with that? I think not.
Some problem with Calvinist is that they lean too much on Gods election and not present those verses where Jesus him selve and many other examples where many callings many invitations are made
I don't think it is for us to dwell on who is elect and who is not, leave that problem to God. It is the job of the Calvinist to preach Christ crucified to his family and pray that God would be merciful to them. It is also not for the Calvinist to know whether someone is saved or not, it is for him to preach the Gospel until there are evidences of a repentant heart. "That is unfair", is the most common argument when a Calvinist talks about election, the question is "Is it fair that we transgress a Sovereign, Holy and Righteous God and not suffer the consequence?", we are sinners in the first place and we deserve Hell.
I don’t think any would deny that their children could easily go to Hell. The fault is on humans for choosing to sin. God created us for His good pleasure, and we have all rebelled.
It's possible to have "Free Will" if it comes from God, IF God first Wills that to occur, but it's hard to find a lot of verses that suggest His Will to do that. Even if we grant the original premise, the environmental texture of that "Free Will" can still be easily manipulated by God, even IF God had already put rules on himself not to violate your "Free Will". Basically, it's the environmental texture that will, in the end, override your "Free Will", if "Free Will" as the Arminians believe it to exist, even exists. God is ultimately in charge of your decisions, even if you are as free as a mouse in a maze; God picks the food, God picks the walls, God hand-crafts your DNA.
I had the same period of time where what I believe to be true was kind of basically torn apart with what the Holy divine Word of God said and it was quite tramatic, however worth it!! I walked around like a zombie somewhat in mourning and so confused and torn. It was necessary.
brad brown Yes. God chooses. We are told again and again that He chooses based upon certain conditions. Repent and believe. Notice that whoever was willing to come to the feast were chosen?
Why does this always come down to Calvinism v Arminianism. Arminians believe you can lose your salvation. I don’t believe Calvinism, that doesn’t make me an Arminian. Even the name makes me laugh. Like I’m following some man made religious theology named after the guy who thought it up
Oh my gosh. This is happening to me right now . I am balling and this Is torturing me . I don’t understand what’s the correct side the correct belief. And the fact that what I grew up knowing could be wrong really really hurts and is scary.
AF: As a Calvinist, I realized I had to believe the following about hell. Before the world existed, God decided to create a world in which the majority of humans were ordained to suffer eternal punishment in hell because, ultimately, God wanted them to so he could glorify himself in their damnation. Their damnation was God’s intention. This gets explained via a complex causal web, but that’s the inescapable conclusion at the bottom of Calvinism. All doctrines of hell are difficult, but the Calvinist doctrine presented me with a God so (seemingly) cold and morally ambiguous that I despaired of how I could know and relate to such a God. If the God who could die for sinners could also create sinners in order to damn them, then the universe was an incoherent place ruled by an enigmatic deity of arbitrary, raw power. It is certainly within God’s rights to do such a thing, but if it’s within God’s heart then we’re all in big trouble.
Justifyd Jim Yes Love is either a free will choice or it is forced love which isn’t really love but rape. God offers His love as a free will gift . Hell is full of those who willingly refused to seek and know the True Biblical God
Justifyd Jim nothing stopping you? Emotions, circumstances, mental illnesses could make you disbelieve in Christ even after 20+ years of faith and service. God saves and will forgive and hold the salvation he gives you even if you disbelieve. God is sovereign, God is good, Holy. I am much more likely to believe I misunderstand God and goodness and Holiness than to believe God is not good or unholy. God has to exist, and he has to be good and holy. Otherwise there is no point. Gods not the problem, I am
Well unless you know when Jesus will return or how many people will turn to Christ before then can you really say most humans were ordained to suffer eternal punishment? And if the punishment is just should it really bother us? Would you lose sleep over Hitler being sentenced to death?
Calvinism, like so many isms, is extra- Biblical (that is to say outside of the bible). I believe it is a pernicious doctrine which robs Christians of their joy, their zeal for mission, and their pity for lost souls. The fruit of Calvinism is division in churches unwarranted pride in its adherents, and a lost sense of hope in Christ as redeemer.
@@michaelborg5798 Actually it's everywhere I read in the Bible. It's in both the old and new testaments. Of course I love 1 John Chapter 2, but the admonition in Ezekiel 33:7-9 makes it clear that there is choice in the matter and that blood may be on our hands for failure to warn sinners. I also think often about Genesis 4 where God personally counsels Cain about resisting sin and lays out his choices for him. Deuteronomy 30:19 explicitly describes the choice that faces each of us. It's important that we view Calvinism through the lens of the whole counsel of God's Word, and not view the Gospel through the lens of Calvinism.
Clay Cadwell choice does not equate libertarian free will, it describes choice. You’re allowed options, that isn’t the same thing as being the lawmaker.
Clay Cadwell Clay, the Calvinist doctrine is t that you don’t have choices. Calvinist affirm that we have choices and we’re responsible for the choices we make. The claim is that the natural man, the fleshly sinner, the unsaved cannot please God. “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Romans 8:7-8 ESV The unsaved are not neutral against God, they would not choose God and they cannot please him, they are hostile to him. It isn’t speaking about morality, unsaved people can be moral, most are to be honest. It is saying that unregenerate people will not chose God.
John 14:6 is the verse God's Spirit pierced my heart with decades ago to bring me to saving faith in His Son's redeeming work. I heard and I believed. There was no talk of Calvinism or Arminianism. I "desired," as time passed, to tell all my family about my salvation and the saving grace of God in Christ Jesus for all who will believe. An uncle, who I loved and who was the only earthly father figure I ever knew was one of the first family members I talked to. He was a challenge which now I know strengthened my Christian journey; my uncle always enjoyed challenging me when it came to Scriptural matters. He never voiced a proclamation of faith in Christ's redemption work, rather he would say that he couldn't know if he was saved and headed for heaven or not until he died. I shared passages that challenged his beliefs. The last conversation I had with him he promised me that he would read passages I'd suggested to which I looked forward to discussing with him. The Epistle of 1 John NASB contains the word "know" 36 times. The message is clear that we can know if we're saved or not. I did not know the beliefs of Primitive Baptists until after my uncle died. Now I do and now I understand my uncle's statement about salvation - I was out of the country when his funeral was officiated at the PB Church he attended. My hope is that my uncle responded to God's word.
Interesting! One branch of my family was deeply involved in the Primitive Baptist movement during the early to mid 1800s, and went from town to town through Indiana, Illinois and Iowa helping to plant Primitive Baptist churches for two generations. Despite this family tie, I only really found out what their beliefs are within the last couple of years, as my great-grandfather married a Lutheran whose parents had immigrated from Denmark. As neither of their families approved of the other's church, they decided to offend them both equally and join a Pentecostal church. I've never attended a Primitive Baptist service, but I did see the last church my great-great-grandfather helped to plant, or more properly the building, as it closed its doors more than a generation ago. It sits, boarded up, in a field at the edge of a tiny village in southwestern Iowa, still bearing a large sign proclaiming "Primitive Baptist Church" above the front door.
@@DamonNomad82 Thank you Damon for your response to my 2017 entry regarding Primitive Baptists. Now, after 5 more years of Spirit led study of God's inexhaustible word, by His grace, I continue to grow spiritually; a follower of Jesus, God the Son, and no other. God help all who perhaps have followed and defended a mere man's doctrine. Further study of the birth of Esau and Jacob and their narratives as revealed by God is worth it. Context matters. God never changes. JESUS SAVES.....whosoever believes Him!
When Piper gets to his example about how the doctrine of unconditional election is helpful in evangelism at about the 20 minute mark, it seems like he may be making an unwarranted assumption. He seems to imply that if someone is worried or even convinced that they could not be elect, then they must assume that they are among the elect, and then he encourages this hypothetical individual to place their trust in Christ. I wholeheartedly agree that that is what anyone and everyone who recognizes the weight of their own sin should do (Trust alone in the only One who paid for the sin of the world), but it is precisely what the reprobate in Calvinist Soteriology cannot do.
“May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither Calvinism nor arminianism means anything; what counts is the new creation.” Galatians 6:14-15 NIVUK
Provided we are factoring in the absolute justice of God into the predestination equation, we presumably won’t be too far wrong. Therefore as we know that God is just and fair and obviously reasonable, we also know that those whom He chooses must be chosen on the basis of justice. It would be unfair and unjust if God chose one and not another simply because of the way He rolled the dice. If you want my worthless 2 cents worth this is what I think. It’s obviously necessary for God to do some predestinating otherwise He wouldn’t bother with it. Maybe the Satanic temptations are such that if God doesn’t step in and help out, the tempter will be too much and repentance may not actually be possible. And if this is the case then it’d make sense for God to step in and help out by helping those whom He knows will repent. And this stepping in by God consists of orchestrating the life of the believer ( yet to be,) to ensure that they can indeed repent and be converted.
Calvinism does not have as much biblical support as Arminianism. Calvinists narrowly rely mostly on books of John and Paul's for support, and much are due to that Calvinists read the Scriptures out of context. Calvinism has also been used by Satan significantly, resulting in two very sad extremes: 1. people believing "once saved always saved" and continue living in sin without repentance, and 2. religious superiority that transformed into racial superiority which caused Apartheid in South Africa and slavery defense in North America. Please John Piper study your history and explain these two sinful realities from Calvinism, you can learn a lot from Jacob Prasch and David Pawson.
C P seems a bit like a stretch for both. Claiming we take scripture out of context and blaming calvinists for slavery. Wow. We rely on every book of the Bible and wrestle just like piper said early in the video. If you are a “Calvinist” and continue living in sin, you are not a Christian and you’re fooling yourself. A true Calvinist is necessarily regenerated and strives to escape sin i their lives. 22:00 piper talks about the head vs heart calvinists. I think that answers your concern as well
@@joshback119 Thanks for your feedback. For someone that's so into making money (based on your playlists) one can't help wondering how true of a Christian are you? :) Anyway, I do think Calvinists should study what their doctrine (i.e. TULIP) really says and observe the history and the consequences of this doctrine. It's a fact that those "Christians" continue living in sins tend to believe predestination and once saved always saved, it's also a fact that Dutch Calvinist Puritans immigrated to South Africa and supported Apartheid and Calvinist Puritans immigrated to America became slave owners and went to war with Lincoln in defending slavery. When you compare Calvinism with Arminianism, you'd find a lot more Scriptures supporting Armenian views than Calvinism. Anyone believing in less than a 5-point Calvinism (so called moderate Calvinist) is fooling themselves, because the mismatch and conflicts between their doctrine and practice are overwhelming, not to mention what they preach are dangerous and misleading to the unbelieving and "not so true" Christians. Remember the Scriptures say that those who teach others will be judged more strictly. James 3:1. I heard Jacob Prasch said several times that he rather drop dead than mislead others. I'd love to hear John Piper or any other Calvinist pastors say the same thing.
he said he wept for a full semester, it seems like he was being led by a spirit of fear into these knowledges when in reality we all know that God does not give us a spirit of fear but of power love and a sound mind.
I am always amazed by calvinists who all get saved by the gospel, the gospel that says for God so loved the world, meaning everyone. It's the gospel they first received, when they got saved. Galatians 1 No Other Gospel 6I am amazed how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- 7which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse! 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse! The calvinist doctrine that God doesn't love everyone, makes it impossible to preach the true gospel with an honest heart. Some say I preach the gospel of the bible, but if anyone asks them, did Jesus die for my sins, they can't say yes, honestly. Calvinism without doubt distorts not only the gospel, but makes God look unjust. The gospel is good news, but there is no good news in the calvinist gospel, because Jesus only loves some, not all, so you can't offer it to anyone. If the scripture above doesn't convict you, it should. God knew calvinism would spring up, hence why it's written has a warning, true spirit filled believers who fear God's word, should recognise it's not the gospel they first received, when they got saved.
@Lindsay Colon But remember, if He chose you, then He chose to pass over others. Or, maybe He didn't choose you, and you are just experiencing effervescent grace, but you are still damned to Hell.
@Lindsay Colon Calvinism strips the hope from the bible that Jesus spoke of. I was in a bad place last year and I came upon Calvinism. It taught me that no matter what, I am doomed to hell with no hope in what Jesus did. What Calvinism does is strips God of who he is and puts him in a box of limited things he can and can't do. It rips away any hope. I felt, if I am condemned, why even continue in my Christian walk? If I'm already condemned to hell, I may as well go out and have as much sex as I can with random women and enjoy life to the fullest because I'm going to hell anyway. There have been so many Christians who became atheist because of Calvinism. It is a lie! A tool of Satan to take away our hope that Jesus gave us. By your words, yourself, you may not even be saved and are just fooled. So.. if you think you are saved, but God didn't choose you, why are you even a Christian? Why believe in a god who may or may not love you and give you salvation? You may as well go out and worship a bear and hope it doesn't decide to eat you after all you have done for it.
@Lindsay Colon Yes you're right, we have no role at all in our salvation, we're not saved by works but by grace through faith alone. The problem with the Calvinist is that they perceive faith as being a work, yet no where in the Bible does it speak of faith in such a manner, it's the contrary. Paul makes a contrast of being saved by works or saved by grace through faith, therefore faith can't be a work.
Revelation 22:17 says, “Whosoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” Calvinism, however says it actually means: The ones I (God) chose, will take of the water of life. John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” Calvinism, however says this verse actually means: For God so loved the ones He chose, that He gave His only begotten Son, that those He chose WILL have everlasting life. Joshua 24:15 says, “…choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve…But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Calvinism, however says this verse actually means: There is no choice, rather, God will decide whether or not one will serve the Lord. 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” Calvinism, however, says this verse actually means: The Lord is not willing that any of the ones He has chosen should perish, but that all of the ones He has chosen should come to repentance. Matthew6:8-10 says, “…therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done.” This is a prayer. If God’s will was already being done as per Calvinism, then why do we need to pray that it will happen? Hebrews 3:12-14 says, “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end…” This is a call to not harden our hearts and depart from the living God, and to hold our confidence in Christ steadfast until the end. According to Calvinism, we can’t make that decision; God has already decided. John 1:29 says, “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” Calvinism, however says this verse actually means: The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the few that God has chosen. 1st Timothy 1:15 says, “This is a faithful saying …that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners…” Calvinism, however says this verse actually means: Jesus came into the world to save (ONLY) the sinners God has already chosen. 1ST John 19 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Calvinism says, this verse really means, the ones He has chosen WILL confess their sins, and He is faithful and just to forgive them their sins and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness. Calvinism calls confession a synergistic work; meaning a work of faith added to what God has already done. Also, there is no IF in Calvinism. Revelation 3:20 says, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.” Calvinism says, this verse really means, “…when the one I have chosen hears my voice, he will open the door…” Luke 13:3 says, “…unless you repent, you too will all perish.” It doesn’t say, “it doesn’t matter if you repent UNLESS I have already chosen you.”
Romans 9-11 has a very happy ending: "God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all. … From Him, and through Him and to Him are all things." (Romans 11:32,36a)
No...I reject Calvinism for many reasons. One is that if man has no free will, he is nothing more than a puppet or robot with no true identity. We are all just pawns in a game. Period. That’s what Calvinism equates to. It would also mean that you would have to deny 1/4 of the scriptures and explain to me why God, Jesus Christ, and the apostles warned believers about not falling into the entrapment of the evil one. Why warn if everything is predestined? Not to mention, i take very seriously the warning God gave in revelation not to add or take away to the Holy Word of God. And naming an ideology after a man who had no hand in writing scripture, Mr Calvin, has me second guessing his followers. There is no solid foundation in this belief system.
Annie Aviles, Calvinism is a mixture of Biblical Truth and man-made Lies.... Definetly, although God is sovereign, every person has his own free will.... It is stupid to say that man has no free will because God is sovereign... When God created Adam and Eve, God gave them free will..... After the Fall of Adam and Eve, all their descendants inherited the sinful nature of Adam and Eve, and all died Spiritually, and all fall short to the glory of God.... But the free will remains in us... That's why Jesus commanded His disciples to go and preach the gospel to all the world, and said: ''Those who '''''BELIEVE''''' and is baptized shall be saved'' If you have a choice to believe or not to believe, It means that you have a free will..... However, Calvinism has Biblical Truth in it's doctrine..... It is indeed true that before the foundation of the world, the elect were already predestined to be saved... And it is also true that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father for the Elect Only.....
@@reynaldodavid2913 so I suppose the scripture that says that God is willing that none should perish that all should come to repentance, but many because of the hardness of their hearts will lose out. So you're saying that God contradicts himself by saying that he hardens people's hearts against their will and by doing so overrides his own wishes that all should come to repentance?
How can u teach our Gospel the way men choose to interpret it? The word of God is very clear. U r confusing a lot of people leading them not to be saved! U don't even know if u r saved if u believe this nonsense!!!
Calvinism is just a label. It just happens to align with what the scripture teaches. Don't get caught up with the label. God is sovereign in his choosing.
Bobby A you don’t seek God? The bible says that should seek him, what are you talking about? Almost all mankind seeks God. Just look at all the different religions.
I believe in free will God's REQUIREMENT that I live a holy life like a "new creation." If I am right - I am good with God. If Piper and all the other Calvinist warriors are right - I am good with God. In fact, if as they teach, nothing I do really matters - I am good with God. Here is the real problem: They believe God has enough love to save someone but not enough power to change them.
It is not about change them is about he doesn’t want to change them because the ones he wanted he will sabe soon or later God have the power to do anything.
These are just caricatures of Calvinism. I don’t know a single Calvinist who says God has enough love to save someone but not enough power to change them. In fact, it’s precisely the opposite. He saves them and then by the power of his Holy Spirit begins the process of sanctification, or transforming the person into the image of Christ. I also don’t know a single Calvinist who says that what you do doesn’t matter. That is actually called antinomianism, which is vehemently rejected by Calvinists. What they’re saying is that god will not cast you out eternally because of your sin. At the same time you can be absolutely assured he will discipline you for it like any loving father would.
@@steveareeno65 First of all, there is not even a single instance in Scripture in which a person said a prayer of salvation. A commitment to Christ was indicated by baptism and literally following Him. This prayer that supposedly gets you into the club is part of the problem - once people say it, they believe they have a lifetime membership. If they actually grow in the Lord, it is just icing on the cake. Part of the problem is the false trichotomy developed by Calvinists. In their thinking, there are the lost, the saved, and those who go even deeper and are disciples. In the actual Bible, there are only unbelievers and disciples (followers). Of course, the Reformed safety valve for anyone who does a lot of real ugly sinning is, "They were never really saved." I have known plenty of people and you could see the Holy Spirit working in their lives but like the parable of the sower they got choked by other things because they did not grow enough. "And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." (Luke 9:23) He makes clear the evidence that someone truly belongs to Him. Then there is this: "66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” (John 6:66-67) It does not say that "many in the crowd turned back" but that "many of his disciples turned back." Calvinists completely misinterpret Romans 7 and 1st John 1. "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him." 1st John 3:6
He's a good brother . . . compassionate, kind. And yet, he does not "sacrifice" Truth upon the "altar" of Peace. John would surely say "Peace, if Possible, but Truth at All Costs!"
I am not convinced that Calvanism is true and I would appreciate the people sharing with me the verses that they think demands that Calvanism be true. The scripture "Joacob I have loved and Easu I have hated" does not convice me. For example Jesus said "“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple." HATE your wife? What does this mean? It CLEARLY does not mean HATE as we think of it in English. We are also told "Husbands, love your wives". HATE in this context carries the concept of PREFERENCE. Christ has to come FIRST. So God PREFERRED the messiah to come through the family tree of Jacob. I think the Calvanists misunderstand this verse. I would be interested in hearing from my Calvanists friends with their BEST verse. Scripture first. Thank you in advance.
Even though I was predestined before I became born again in 1987, I wasn’t chosen by God immediately. At that stage I was in the category of the called but yet to be chosen, just as there was a time when I was yet to be born again. And although I was always predestined along with God knowing that I would eventually get chosen, I was still yet to be chosen. I believe it’s only in the last few short years that I’ve been chosen, and I know it. How did I get chosen? By becoming completely obedient to God with all gratitude. Not 80% or 90% obedient. But 100% obedient. But we, who are the predestined, are invariably not always privy to whom God will and won’t save, so therefore we sow liberally like the sower in the parable. And as the growth of the seed shooting up into shoots is not dependent upon us, apart from preparing the ground, as John the Baptist did for Jesus, but instead it depends upon God’s sunlight wind and rain. We do the work of the sower liberally sowing the word of God. Who would have thought such a terrorising persecutor of the church could become the messenger to the gentiles? The prayers of the saints undoubtedly contributed to turning this menace into a miracle.
God is outside of time. His mind is not limited by time. So while I understand the sequential understanding of what you're saying, those limits don't factor into God's thinking. Also, you're not "completely obedient to God" even today. You were not chosen because of your obedience. This is a misrepresentation of the gospel of grace.
@@matt_h_27 Yes it’s an interesting subject Matthew. Let me explain it another way. But firstly let me quickly agree with you by stating that you are absolutely correct, God is outside of time. And because of this, the prayers we offer up to God for the salvation of others can be effectual, if God allows them to be, even though we are praying today for what God has done yesterday, namely before the birth of the ones we are praying for. However I have digressed. We know that God knows everything. And as He knew before He created the angels which ones would be faithful and those who would be unfaithful. He also knew before He created mankind those who had the wherewithal to be faithful and obedient to Him. And whilst He isn’t choosing us because of our obedience, but instead it’s the obedience He knew we would have, if given the perfect opportunity to be obedient. God is predestinating or orchestrating the lives of the yet to be believers, so that they can indeed become believers, by perfectly arranging their lives in such a way that they can repent of their own free will, at the perfectly prescribed time that God arranges. But without this orchestration by God, we would not be able to repent, hence the reason for the existence of predestination. And whilst we might perhaps imagine or think we could repent without God’s assistance in this manner, nevertheless it would not be possible, because the powers of Satan would overpower us. This is aptly shown with the example of Peter, when Satan desired to sift him. Peter had been with the Lord from the beginning of His ministry. He had seen the miracles. He has seen it all. He knew the truth. But without Jesus praying for Peter he would have been sifted. And this clearly illustrates that we too would be sifted, hence the reason for the predestinated life.
Also if this theology is true, then every comment every decision every word, has been decided ahead of time. And we have zero control. We are merely experiencing what we are allowed to experience whether good or bad, and we can only glorify Him as much as He wants us to glorify Him! Do we have any free will at all? Or did God write all my words just now?? Did I? Or did John?
I think they believe in a sort of will, and decision making. Just that we aren't even capable of choosing God when we are dead in our sins. That God has to draw us. But Calvinist or not, anyone who believes God knows what will happen before it happens runs into those same questions. The first question is "Does God know what will happen before it happens?" If he does, then your questions apply. If he has "foreknowledge", which most Christians believe, doesn't that kind of imply that what we choose is already set? Because if he knows we will do something, and we don't, then God is fallible. So if he knows what we will do before we do it, it's kind of been set as to what we will do. The other option is that he just doesn't know what the future holds, which is clearly not biblical. I struggle with this same question. I definitely believe God knows the future. So where is the line drawn between "our will" and "God's foreknowledge"?
@@MansterBear, Calvinism is a mixture of 'Scriptural Truth and man-made Lies'.....That is the reason why Calvinism is puzzling and can never be understood, and worst, it implies that God is not just and not A Loving God. The truth is : Before the foundation of the world, God has His own True Children....and the devil has his own children..... God will definitely Save all His True Children.... Not one will be lost.... While God will cast to the lake of fire the children of the devil..... Please Read: Matt 13:24-43 (KJV) 'Parable of Wheat and Tares'
52RGD I'm confused. You said Calvinism is man made lies, yet the end of your post sounds like what Calvinism believe. God knew his children (who would be saved) before he formed the world. Isn't that what Calvinism believe? That's the elect, right ?
@@MansterBear, I said Calvinism is: 'Scriptural Truth mixed with man-made Lies' Calvinism does not say that God has His own True Children before the foundation of the world.... They believe that by God's Sovereignty, He choose whom He will Save and Whom He will damned to hell..... Listen to what Calvin believed..... ''God arranges all things by His Sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify Him by their destruction.'' John Calvin Calvin himself did not know that God has His own Children before the foundation of the world. If he knew, he would include that those individuals that are doomed for destruction are the children of the devil..... Please Read again my first comment..... Thank you.....
@@MansterBear, Man definitely has his own free will.... God did not took that away from man.(another error of Calvinism) Man has the free will to choose whether to come to Christ or not..... But the Elect will choose to come to Christ because they are the True Children of God, and Have the Character of God..... The none-elect will not believe in Jesus because they have the character of the devil their father.... Do you remember when Jesus told some of the Pharisees that :''you are of your father the devil''.... Jesus was not playing of words, He meant what He says.......
I believe the Bible makes it pretty clear on the predestination and election doctrine beginning in Genesis and going through Revelation. The Bible makes ALSO it pretty clear that a predestined and elected person can turn their back on God and walk away and arrive at a point that they can never be renewed to repentance again. Now that is a mystery I cannot explain, but the Bible states that is a fact of life.
Hebrews 6:6 is a hard verse, but given the verses the teach eternal security could your interpretation be in error instead of the scriptures be contradictory? I won't enter into interpretation on the verse, but just point out that the word "lord" in the Greek in not the normal word for lord and this is the only place where "bought" doesn't mention a price.
We look at the New Testament and isolate it from the Old Testament. When the writers wrote these letters and gospels, their source was the old scriptures and pointed to them and how they relate to Christ and the unveiling the mysteries of the Old Testament.
It's so difficult to talk to a Calvinist because instead realizing that someone else might understand more than them, they say it's a mystery and no one can understand.
I agree that our God is big. I also know that I will never understand everything about Him. That is something special. That being said, using "mystery" to cover up the total contradiction that is called Calvinism, is absurd. For example: God loves everyone but everyone doesn't mean you. Or perhaps this one: God justly damns you to Hell because He loves you with a different type of love and so relax and give Him the glory for not wanting to save you. I think when a Calvinist throws out "mystery" all He does is make God smaller and not bigger. They make God almost like a man who controls robots and then punishes his robots because they are defective.
Okay, let's go to the Bible. The burden to show that God does not love everyone and that Jesus did not die for everyone, and that God doesn't even want to save everyone is squarely on the backs of Calvinists. (John 3:1; I John 2:2; Ezekiel 18:32; 33:11; I Timothy 2:4; II Pedro 3:9) The burden to show any texts that give a regeneration (new birth) before faith is squarely on their backs also. Faith comes before regeneration. (John 3:1-21; 20:31)
