The Great and Abominable Church as Marxism 

There's no credible historical evidence or widely accepted documentation suggesting that Karl Marx's father, Heinrich Marx, thought his son was a demon. Heinrich Marx was a lawyer and a man of the Enlightenment, who held progressive views for his time. He was interested in the ideas of the Enlightenment and imparted to his son a passion for philosophy, literature, and the values of freedom and equality. Karl Marx's radical ideas and critiques of society, which developed more fully after his youth, might have been challenging or provocative to some contemporaries, but there's nothing to indicate his father viewed him in such a negative or supernatural light. On the contrary, the correspondence between Karl Marx and his father suggests a relationship of mutual respect and intellectual engagement. The notion that Marx was considered a demon by his father or anyone else seems to stem more from a sensationalist or metaphorical interpretation of his revolutionary ideas and their impact on society, rather than any historical accounts of personal relationships or beliefs within the Marx family.

The role of Marxism in our time is why I think the Korihor story was included in the Book of Mormon. His arguments are exactly the same as critical theory. His arguments were 1) No God or Christ therefore everything devolves to power and power dynamics, 2) man can be shaped into the ideal through correct management of the creature, 3) the Nephite society was founded by a group of men that set up the society with institutions, structures, and a set of beliefs that were designed to keep themselves in power, 4) the people of the society were under a false consciousness of freedom when they were actually in bondage, 5) Korihor was there to awaken them to a consciousness of their bondage to the power structures of society and the social restrictions contained therein, 6) once you have the special knowledge to see the way the power structures keep people in bondage, then you can really be free, 7) Korihor then called them to a revolution against the Nephite society. That is Marxism.

People who crave terrestrial, cannot stand the idea of exaltation. God's perfect order is an insult to them.

I taught Relief Society in our ward a couple of weeks ago. I’d just found your channel and binged a lot of the episodes. I did bring up the great and abominable church in the lesson. 😂 It was in CFM that week and also related to the talk we were discussing. Probably because of your videos, my mind definitely went to the abominable church being ANY ideology that pulls us away from Christ. While looking for a pic to represent the abominable church for a slide, I saw this quote in CFM from Pres. Oaks: “Because no religious denomination-Christian or non-Christian-has ever had “dominion” over all nations of the earth or the potential to bring all the saints of God down into “captivity,” this great and abominable church must be something far more pervasive and widespread than a single “church,” as we understand that term today. It must be any philosophy or organization that opposes belief in God. And the “captivity” into which this “church” seeks to bring the saints will not be so much physical confinement as the captivity of false ideas.”

An acquaintance of mine who is (or was) a member was once defending the tenets of socialism to me by comparing it to the United Order. When I pointed out that the Order was entered into by covenant and by free choice rather than the force of government law, he opined that if people wouldn't do what is right voluntarily, they should be forced to. I was completely flabbergasted. It was like he completely forgot whose idea it was to force us into obedience.

Awesome discussion! Misothiest is my new word. Atheist is not a fitting word for opponents of God who are infused with hatred and bile. If a person simply didn’t believe in God that person would live and let live. Many of these people are so consumed with a burning hatred for God and Christians which goes way beyond simple atheism.

Your headline for this video is literally what i almost commented on your last video with James Lindsay. Glad you had Dan on! Great discussion.

Oh my, thank you for this!! I also read 'Wild Swans' years ago (as well as 'Spider Eaters' and 'Life and Death in Shanghai'). Starting in about 2015, the things I saw in my kid's public schools and universities sounded so much like these books! When I tried talking about this out loud, people reacted really poorly, like I was crazy. I've questioned my own sanity. ... I also remember from 'Wild Swans' - how they had students destroying everything beautiful - parks, gardens, art work - people couldn't even grow flowers.

I was just talking to my sister about this the other day. Her and my daughter are being led away by the “pulling on our heartstrings”. Strange times. Prophet says - Hear him. Think celestial. Overcome the world. Peacemakers needed. There is just So much philosophy of men mingled with scripture.

Refreshing to hear an intelligent person for a change. Our general media is so lacking.

Many members of my family who still live in Africa are thriving because they have taken advantage of BYU Pathway. Uplifting and informative as always. Thanks Greg and Dan.

Read the end of 2 Nephi you will be amazing how descriptions Nephi gave match so closely to the social/cultural issues around us today.

Finally, wokeness explained in a way I can understand. Apparently, to really understand wokeness, with all its tentacles, requires a deeper understanding of Marxism. Thank you!

“An Enemy Hath Done This”, written by Ezra Taft Benson, warned of this way back in 1965. I started reading and was like, yeah, yeah I know all of this and THEN when I got to the latter chapters on how communism/socialism HAS, not will, permeate every facet of our society and then listed the steps on how it IS happening, I started to feel panic as I realized we are already DEEPLY victims of its grasp! Really, now it’s just hunker down and listen to the prophet for direction on how to get through to the other side. Greg, you ask your speakers if they’re optimistic but, really, we HAVE the playbook and we can’t turn the train around but only go through the tunnel and by the will of God we spiritually survive it.

I am so grateful to see this idea finally being vocalized. For years I have been getting pushback for this idea. Thank you for such a great episode!

Years ago I suspected that Karl Marx was a likely candidate as a great false prophet, and nowadays I'm more convinced of that. And personally, I view the Great and Abominable Church as ANYTHING that contradicts the Lord's Church.

Thank you Greg and Dan for laying this out so clearly. I’ve got a few people I need to share this with.

Great way to start my day. Thank you gentlemen for helping me gain a better understanding of marxism. I feel like I need to keep my head on swivel because of how fast this seeps into our lives.

Isn't it interesting how Marx and those who influenced his thinking emerged around the same time as the restoration of the gospel? As Joseph Smith was seeking to find and consolidate all TRUTH, Marx and his ilk were seeking to define and consolidate truth's opposite. The Book of Mormon arrived at exactly the time the world would need it!

Thank you for the topic and your thoughts guys

Great interview. I keep learning more and more from your interviews. Thanks so much.

H. Verlan Anderson wrote a book called The Great and Abominable Church. In summary he described it as a political entity. HVA was endorsed by Ezra Taft Benson.

This episode is a major breakthrough for Cwic Media getting to the heart of the core drivers behind what is going on with modern Marxism. I have never seen it so clearly! Thank you Dan Ellsworth!

Oh, boy! This topic is going to trigger a lot of woke LDS. 🤣

I barely started this one but I already liked this discussion !!!!❤

Such a great discussion, thank you!!

This is absolutely brilliant. I'm 100% sold. This frames things I've been pondering about and troubled by in such clear terms.

Thanks for sharing such great perspectives!

Excellent discussion! Got my next sacrament talk 😂😂😂

Having taught at the university level for over 20 years, Marxism is not specifically mentioned in many academic social circles. However there is a deception going on. Many academics will not self-label as a Marxist. However, I lived through a number of "isms" and other concepts that are leftist in their agenda. They do borrow many neo-Marxist ideas. Examples include social constructionism, postmodernism, racialization, feminism, critical theory, poststructuralism, critical race theory, and social justice. I am not sure that church members as a whole are as sophisticated as adopting a leftist agenda. What I have noticed is some younger (Gen-Z and Millennials) are buying into the idea of rights and equality. This comes up in any discussions of LGBTQ issues. They are also quick to point out something is racist without even knowing what the definition is.

Great stuff guys

great discussion - Makes me think of things that never even crossed my mind.

This helps me see the Book of Mormon in a whole new light. Look at Laman and Lemuel. They never denied the existence of God, they just dispised everything that came from God. They were driven by selfishness. Lemuel received a blessing from Lehi that promised him Lehi's first blessing, or his birthright to lead the family, if he would listen to Nephi and follow his prophetic guidance, much like the relationship between Jared and the brother of Jared, but he refused it because he couldn't have it all and he didn't want God telling him what to do.

President Oaks has said that the great and abominable church is any group, people, organization that fights against the kingdom of god and his true church.

Great content!!! Very interesting. This makes so much sense!!!

Since I was very little, one of my favorite things was to learn about the Plan of Salvation. I have always had a deep love and gratitude for it. One thing that always baffled me was that I didn't understand why 1/3 of the spiritual sons and daughters of God followed Satan. Nowadays, I can see exactly what happened and understand why so many got confused. However, being much older than a Primary kid, I learned that not everybody sided with Heavenly Father and God for the same reasons I did. A friend once told me that she didn't like the Plan. She didn't understand why we had to suffer, and she knew she only accepted the Plan because of her deep love of Father and Jesus Christ. I had an enormous Pre-existence deja vu; I wanted to tell her to scream and tell her all the reasons thousands of reasons why the Plan was good. I felt I couldn't put my thoughts into words. I tried to reaffirm to her that the "PLAN IS GOOD!"

Ask Pres Benson

I'm old enough to remember when members 100% believed Bruce R McConkie when he wrote that the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church and I also remember when a Priest in his black apparel and white collar were in the temple films. It was definitely taught and believed in SS and I am glad you are clearing that up.

This was an excellent discussion.

“Don’t take this to your Sunday school lessons” Too late, Ive mentioned this same exact thing in Sunday school since I was 16 😂 Also, excellent content!! 👏 Such a good interview

Very enlightening! Thank you

Very good episode. ❤❤

This all makes so much sense! Thank you!

Nice job, Dan!

Also, I know I’m out of topic today, but could you bring Michael Rush to talk about the Book of Enoch. There’s a lot of weirdness with the Book of Enoch but it’s not that far from what we learn from the Pearl of Great Price and the creation. Besides, I think Rush did a lot of research on the subject to make an interesting case.

Absolutely loved this!

I attend Pathway Connect and it has been an amazing experience.

Interesting show !

Greg, what do you think about the phrase: 'Religion of the Natural Man'?

Touché Dan and Greg

Ii would like to know what you are basing your thoughts of Utah becoming a blue state. We are refugees from California sent to live in Utah by the voice of the spirit. We are very conservative and a lot of the people we know who have moved here are also conservative. Would the Lord send us here only to come to what we fled in California?

I'm looking for a list of unwoke churches. I don't know where to look though.

Love the discussion and tropic. But why only one quote from our modern prophets and apostles when numerous quotes from scholars are used?

Dan makes an important point here about how changing vocabulary allows those with the Marxist world view to claim that they fit (receptor sites) into a gospel perspective - claiming that this is the "new" socialism. Thomas Sowell points out that changing the definition of words is a clever way of lying. The Great and Abominable Church is a believe system or world view that combats the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is a much more broad concept than a defined group or organization.

Dude! Read "The Naked Communist" by Cleon Skousen!

Thanks!

The great and abominable church meets in the great and spacious building.

Hey Greg, love your work. What's the best way to bring this up in our wards when we are constantly encouraged to not be political?

I have to say that this discussion has brought together many of my thoughts. The idea of satan's thought processes makes a lot of sense to me.

I’m reminded of a recent visit to the Kirtland Temple where the director shared the “curriculum” he was creating as doctrine to implement in the Community of Christ church. He could not answer the basic question as to whether the church believed in Christ. This, and many other comments, make me think he was headed in the direction of adopting Marxism as a religion.

What's the dominant economic system on the planet?

I imagine that “The Great and abominable church” could have many applications but I linked it directly to the Council of Nicea and other similar uninspired councils. . 1. God called the creeds abominable. 2. Church simply means an asembly or council. God has sacred assemblies or councils and the opposite of that would likely be abominable. 3. Those councils did exactly what Nephi prophesied in taking away the plain and precious parts. It also happened after the gospel went from the Jews to the gentiles as Nephi prophesied as well. 4. Lastly, coincidence or not, the council of Nicea was not called together by religious men Or ecclesiastical authority. It was mandated by The political figure Constantine. Otherwise known as Constantine the “GREAT”.

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to tell people in the church in our discussions that Marxism isn't Satanism because it is

This looks quite interesting

….and right out of the gate when the Nephites got rid of a monarchy (righteous as it was) and started a democracy (reign of elected officials or judges) there came their version of Marxism… Nehor!! ALMA 1 2 And it came to pass that in the first year of the reign of Alma in the judgment-seat, there was a man brought before him to be judged, a man who was large, and was noted for his much strength. 3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people. 4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life. 5 And it came to pass that he did teach these things so much that many did believe on his words, even so many that they began to support him and give him money.

1:02:45 interesting that Dan brought up BYU Pathway. The church’s first attempt to do this was a dismal failure where they took donor money for a “perpetual” education fund and then expected the people who needed it (because they couldn’t afford to pay for education) to pay back more than they could afford, even with plenty of donor money available. So glad they’ve learned from that mistake.

I really like the talk given by Marion G Romney at BYU and again at General Conference titled "

I hesitated to watch this for some time, partly because of reservations as to whether Marxism really fit Nephi's description. But reflecting on Marxism as a manifestation of an ancient heresy (what James Lindsay identifies as Gnosticism), I see the parallels much more clearly. What Dan said about liberals witnessing how Marxism devours everything certainly fits my experience. For years I considered myself on the Left, even as I rejected Marx's extremism and atheism: I wanted to be in favor of economic justice for Christian reasons. But it feels like being among the Jaredites, with Coriantumr and Shiz scooping everybody up for one side or the other. I'm glad to live in a time when it doesn't have to be a choice between Coriantumr and Shiz, but between Christ's covenant and Church, and the great Counterfeit, whose many disguises are at last wearing thin.

Such an important subject! 🇺🇸

I've listened to this a couple of times. I think it's the best, plainist explanation I've heard of Marxism. I wonder how Marx feels about this now.

Listening to Bakunin's statement about Satan "Satan the eternal rebel, the first freethinker and emancipater of worlds. He makes man ashamed of his beastiel ignorance and obedience. He emancipates him, stamps upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity in urging him to disobey and eat of the fruit of knowledge," reminds me of Saul Alinsky's dedication in his book, "Rules For Radicals." He says, "Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgement to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins - or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom - Lucifer "

Marxism roots go back into the pre existence when Lucifer suggested he would omit individual free agency for forced equity in group salvation. So much for any eternal achievement awards in a non works based faith. Like Cain.... God did not like Lucifer's offering and naturally chose Christ's plan instead. :>)

Ellsworth is impressive. I see why you chose him for this topic.

H. Verlan Anderson, an LDS author, wrote a book entitled The Great and Abominable Church Of The Devil. It was eye-opener for me about 4 years ago. It was recommended by President Benson.

Marxism is just one tool or even tenant of the Great and Abominable Church and sadly, many of those tools have made inroads into our church. This was a brilliant and enlightening discussion.

In 2007, when I was newly elected to the ASD Board of Ed, I was given John Goodlad's book, "The Moral Dimensions" by the superintendent. After reading only two chapters I had to vomit. The Marxist premise was so thick it made me physically ill. In 1984 Goodlad himself, by the invitation, if I heard correctly, with the hero of the then superintendent of the ASD, helped to set up the CITES and the BYU-Public School Partnership programs at BYU with the "Moral Dimensions" as the basis. Several years later, emblazoned on the wall, "Enculturating Our Young Into A Social and Political Democracy". Many of us fought to get this removed, and we did. Again, Marxism in our schools, even back then. Yes it's all around us. Even at BYU in the McKay School of Education.

Greg. Have you met Strve E. Smoot? I wonder if his coverage of how the John Westley Powell and Lewis Henry Morgan kept native Americans down would be relevant to your channel. He covers how Marx, Engels, and even Darwin were people they associated with.

I always thought The GAC is secularism but I did not hear that word in this discussion.

Is it my imagination or did a video get deleted?

Love this episode. It confirms my thoughts over the past 20 or so years. Not only is this ideology ancient, but it's pre-mortal to the creation of this earth. My only question on the subject of Lucifer is that Lucifer is claiming that what he's doing has been done in other worlds. The context, it seems, is that he, Lucifer, didn't tempt in these other worlds. I can't find anything addressing this. What happened in pre-mortality seems to be very illusive, yet we know, through modern scripture, that other worlds not only exist, but some have already "...passed away".

Great lesson. Important to learn that commu ism, as awful as it is, isn't Marxism. Thank you

It started out in the war in Heaven.

Thanks to God that I am so busy and I don't have time to read and learn about Marxism.

I tend to agree. Isaiah paints two worldviews: Zion and Babylon. What Zion is, Babylon isn't, and vice versa. Any practice, worldview, belief, doctrine, etc. that has no place in Zion, is by definition, a part of Babylon. Nephi echoes that imagery: "Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." (1 Nephi 14:10) I agree completely that Marxism fits the bill. I see it in other places too though... "And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church. And also for the praise of the world..." (1 Nephi 13: 8-9) These are also the desires of every professional athlete, movie star, entertainer, etc... people that society puts up as the false gods that we worship. Man, I long for Zion!

Maybe instead of satanic he could be said to be “Devilish, and lovers of themselves“

Please Greg, give us just ONE example of a more ancient version and "systematized" philosophy or movement that was essentially Maxism

I think it is.

Wait...does this mean that BYU is part of the great and abominable church? Wokeness, critical theory, organic evolution and the rest is taught there and paid for partly at least by tithing, which means the church allows this at the very least. Where does that leave us?

That makes sense. Can we get the brethren to second it? 😂

Two Weeks On FEMA - On The "Counter Culture Mom Show" Or The Same Show On FreedomProject!

Why are members trying to skirt around what Heavenly Father has asked us to do? Do they think they know better? Do they think they can really change Heavenly Father’s plan?

I understand and appreciate your comments. Please let me help to better articulate the some of the your points. Words matter. Please understand that there is a distinct difference between Satan and Satanism, and Lucifer and Luciferianism. When you commented that the term "Satanist" didn't capture what you were trying to say, it is because the aspects that you were talking about are Luciferianism. Luciferianism and Satanism are not the same. Luciferianism and its worldview is typified by what you read in the scriptures about Lucifer in the premortal existence, what we read abut Lucifer in Moses, etc. Luciferianism is the penultimate misotheism-worship of, or embracing all the worldview of Lucifer WHILE acknowledging the existence of God the Father (Moses 1:12). While certain forms or institutions do not directly embrace the worship of the personhood of Lucifer as God of this World on all levels, there are many that embrace his goals and aims or perverted worldview or priesthoods which are antithetic to Moses 1:39 and the Plan of Salvation. While Satansim and its ploys, as a religion, embrace Satan as God as a replacement object of worship, a Luciferianism worldview enjoins its adherents (knowingly or unknowingly) to actively participate in the Plan of Destruction against the Father and His Christ. Satanists are "out in the open" regarding their worship, but Luciferianists are NOT known by that name, and operate in secret. Luciferianism is Anti-Plan, Anti-Kingdom, Anti-church, and Anti-Christ, and Marxism is but one of its institutions. There must be opposition in all things, and the Anti-Church (the Great and Abominable Church) must have antithetical elements to all that God Loves, Prizes, and Plans. This is why Nephi indicates that there are only two churches, which we can understand as the the Church of the Firstborn, and the Church of Lucifer. All earthly institutions have patronage to one or the other.

I always say, even Athiests (whether they want to admit or not) have a belief in something. We as humans have a natural desire to believe in something bigger than ourselves, whether its a 'God' OR a lifestyle, purpose, etc on how to conduct our lives.

Several professors were card-carrying members of the Communists party at the College I attended. (Wayne State U. Detroit, Mich) In my Social Psychology Class the professor said that the father of our world view of communism was Henri de Saint-Simon, a French Social Reformer.

24:40 How about "Satan's fanboys"?

Many people are teaching that the great and abominable church is our church . Where are they getting this from ? Who teaches it ? Prophets seers and revelators ? Or just regular people ? Seems the church teaches that it is any person or group who teaches you to lean in them to help you save you and not Jesus Christ . Or any organization . I just want to know where dies the church teach the great and abominal church is our church ?

This fits the World Economic Forum's takeover

nk you. So very well done. Just what our prophet said we need to be able to recognize the voice of the Holy Ghost we will fall. Carol

1:03:55 I think I will

An excellent but very graphic book that informs & describes the effects of these insidious philosophies, read "Bloodlands" by Timothy Snyder.