War in Heaven over Grace, Works and Agency, an LDS Perspective 

Great discussion. I think one of the most widespread falsehoods that have been taught in the Church is the idea that Satan's plan was to make us be good. That teaching has no scriptural foundation. It is much more scripturally sound that Satan's plan was to save us in our sins and not from our sins. In essence, he wanted to remove all laws and commandments so that there would be no wrong. His plan is alive and well, and being promoted in society today.

Wow. Accuser. I have never viewed the war of heaven in this light. This title gives even greater meaning to Christ's role as Advocate. ♥️

I can see that one of the self serving accusations Lucifer may have used in our prior existence is, 'Just remember; I know you and you'll never make it back with Father's plan.' Does he still use this to convince us that we can't do it, that the road is too hard? Just a thought.

Agency is also, and more frequently, destroyed by eliminating accountability

When I hear people talk about how we were shown what this world would be like in the pre-existence. It reminds me of the line from the movie "The Matrix" when Morpheus says "There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path" We may have been shown what this world would be like, but we had no way of experiencing it until we came here and there is a profound difference.

I enjoyed watching this one twice. Big-picture topic, big-picture discussion. Great discussion - thank you for letting me "be there".

This is how I see our eternal progression - Let's say our Father in Heaven is a doctor (in reality he has every doctorate there is plus some more) and we told Him we wanted to become like Him. In order to do that we had to go away to college. (The ones who just wanted the doctorate handed to them moved out without even graduating from high school). We all initially chose a major (the reason so many of us seem to be taking such diverse classes of experience) and off we go. I even think some of us knew we wanted to go to college but REALLY didn't want a Ph.D, maybe just a bachelor's or a masters. Anyway, in order for us to eventually gain the education we chose, we needed to learn very specific things and to take very specific classes. Sometimes we fail and have to take a particular class over again, or we decide we want to change majors or that maybe college really isn't what we wanted after all and we drop out, perhaps enrolling in a trade school instead. As we progress, we start becoming more and more what we need to be in order to become good doctors. We start figuring out what kind of doctor we want to become. We discover what it is we are truly interested in and what we seem to be good at and what it is that we find more challenging. All of these things will eventually make us into better doctors. In the end, would you want a doctor who worked hard, learned everything they needed to know and who continues to learn, or would you prefer a doctor who cheated their way through or doesn't even like being a doctor? Heavenly Father wants us to know FOR SURE what it is we really want to be and that we put in the time and effort it takes to be whatever it is we want to be. That is the only way we will be happy with where we wind up, the only way we know for sure it was entirely our own choice, and that we know everything we need to know in order to be successful.

Thank you Greg. Another awesome, intelligent and inspiring presentation. I heard you say that you gave up your day job to do Cwic Media. I appreciate your decision. I try to listen to you every day.

One of the best discussions I've heard in over 40 years as a member. Makes so much sense to things that seemed unfinished and too simplistic. I've listened twice and will again. Thank you!

I absolutely loved this discussion! I will say, though, suffering means victimhood. We came to this earth to be tried, not to suffer. Trials do not mean suffering. We can feel hard feelings and go through hardships without suffering through them. That is my only input here. Keep doing what your doing!! So glad I found your channel ❤️

Wow put this one on my save list. In my intense study of the scriptures over the past few years, you just vocalized what I have been thinking about the purpose of earth life!! Thank you

I came back to watch this... I was prompted. This means more today than even last year... this is remarkable. I'm so glad I was brought back to this message. It opened up so much for me especially while reading about Moses and his people.... I'd be up all night explaining. 🙄 I'll spare you. Nonetheless, THANK YOU. 😊

Grace/Mercy does not make anyone perfect; it only redeems individuals from their choices, or choices of others. Works bring us to perfection (eventually). Therefore, we need both grace/mercy and works to progress and reach perfection. We could not progress with works only (without grace/mercy) because we cannot be perfect from the beginning. This is where grace/mercy come into play. So there really is no balance between grace/mercy and works, we need the full amount of both to make it.

In my opinion, the word accuse means a thing or info is used to cause guilt to be felt so they reflect on that instead of feeling good or feel the need to do better. Just like the big & spacious building, ppl are saying things to try to make us feel bad enough that there's nothing we can do to be better. So therefore, some feel so guilty becuz we are weak, that those pull away instead of turning to our Father & Savior for help. I'm so grateful for the atonement. Knowing just that,... I'm not a quitter. 🙏❤️⚘️

Another thought on the “Accuser”. I think his biggest accusation was against Christ likely destroying the faith many had in Him and His central role in the Father’s plan. If Christ couldn’t have “pulled off” the atonement, the plan would be frustrated or destroyed. We had to have faith in Christ and His ability to accomplish it.

When we measure life, trials, opportunity, education, comforts, suffering, joy and loss and look from person to person to gauge fairness or equity it's a sure sign we don't understand God's plan for individual sifting and progression. When we hear wicked people say "everyone should be equal" and then the wicked take the power and resources and oppress society in general, and we believe it's happening because those at the top believe everyone should be equal, we are fools. Lucifer realized that in God's plan he , Lucifer, would be cast out and be without glory so he tried to turn the tables on God and us, and prove God was imperfect by obstructing his plan and then seize power (which God knew he would do so God implemented a plan that uses evil/opposition as its motor). This life is a moment. Will we be distracted or focused on Christ and exaltation? Our individual lives are for our individual outcome. Will it be glorious or not so glorious?

I just recently found this channel and am trying to catch up as much as i can. I found this video on March 16, 2022 - the day that the Ukrainian president address the U.S. congress asking for help to survive the war that Putin has raged on them. All the while, our nation (U.S.) is becoming more and more divided by ideologies. I'm grateful to find this video at this time because it is so relevant to today's world. I cannot thank you enough for this wisdom and truth. Thank you both for your time, expertise and testimonies. This video is becoming more and more timely.

11:28 "I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." That's a Babylon 5 quote and it makes me think of the garden of Eden story, mortality is what makes that bearable, because it will be fair, but also because we can't survive the process of a fair existence while still learning who we want to be in reality. I would argue Satan more convinced them on the fear of failure, not just the 20 minutes of life will be awful. It's a fear of what we will chose when out there in that unfair place. Like what was said later (around the 25-minute mark) about disparity, agency means some people will fail and some will not. So not only did it create fear but jealousy, giving them something in common with the one who coveted God's position. He had too much ego to admit he would fail but the cowardice is all over his plan. 20:48 leading to 21:27 All while conveniently creating his own hierarchy with him on top, similar to the systems mentioned in 22:25 26:48 I don't believe our agency was different so much as our options were different. We had constant exposure to light and no physical body, let alone a weak mortal one. They were able to sin against the light in a way only perdition here can. That suggests more agency in some ways for the sheer knowledge they had access to. However, without the rest, there was really nowhere else our agency in those circumstances could have taken us. Hence that extra circumstance gave a higher evil to any who do hit perdition here. Least that's my take. I have heard the "show us what we really want" thing and believe that. And like I said, the fear is lack of control. It's easy on that side to say they would choose God. Like a kid on a video game saying they could Totally handle war. Not the same and worse they who fell had at least enough knowledge to grasp that concept. 44:58 That got especially interesting guys. Certainly, some connections I had never fully made. 55:11 Well that hits me where I live. And no, not terribly abstract.

Great video. I sent it to family members. My brother is one of those sober (not prone to exaggeration etc) people who helped deal with a possession during his mission. Never before and never since. He said it was very strange.

I went and saw it on Saturday. Thank you for making it! My friend and I saw both enjoyed it. It was different than we expected, but loved the relationships in the movie. We both would love to find a guy like Mormon. What a powerful love story! It was faith promoting and inspiring. I also want to deep read the Book of Mormon this year! I’m going to buy the movie when it comes out and I’d buy the beautiful “scroll” too, when it comes out. I hope that comes available. 🙏

Fantastic it really put a new light on this topic, got me thinking deeper thank you 😊

We knew when we came here that we would go through trials and fairness is that we all be tried. So no one gets through life without trial. Also I believe that God is there for all of us but we need to come to a point of we want to reach out to have HIM in our lives

Great discussion.

Thanks, this aligned with my recent thoughts on post-modernism / deconstruction / critical theories. I hope people are paying attention! My fear is that too many are so focused on the carrot that they don't see the stick following close behind. One of the ironies - or perhaps deceptions would be a better characterization - of the stated effort to level all hierarchies is that it doesn't accomplish that at all. What it does is replace hierarchies based on competencies that are useful and creative with a tyrannical hierarchy composed of snitches and bullies at lowest level and murderous tyrants at the top - the competency it favors is the disposition and ability to exercise compulsion over others. Regarding the tug-of-war between mercy and merit: the apparent conflict between the two arises because the question is not properly framed, or at least that's the way I see it. It isn't a one-dimensional problem, it's two-dimensional. In a one-dimensional model, you have a straight line representing both the question of who does what as well as what the outcome is. So if I do 10%, then Christ does 90%, or maybe I do 0% and Christ does 100%, that kind of thing: you add Christ's contribution with mine and that determines the end result. In a two-dimensional model it's a graph with a diagonal outcome line with upward slope from left to right. Christ operates on the vertical (dependent) axis and I operate on the horizontal (independent) axis. If I refuse Christ and rebel against him, the result is that I expose myself to only the bare minimum of the blessings available through the Atonement. If I do all that is within my power - however little that might be - I expose myself to all of the the blessings available through the Atonement. Christ does all the lifting, I do none of it. My role is to put myself into a position where the Atonement can lift me. (To an observer, it may look like I think I'm doing the lifting, but one must keep in mind that correlation is not causation.)

Thank you for persuading me.

Great video brothers! Thank you 👊🙏

I would like to share something with brother Matsen about what I learned on my mission from what was taught to us by Elder Bruce R McConkie and others while on my mission regarding premortality that he did not discuss. However, I am unaware of how to contact him. I joined Cwic because enjoy the information I'm learning. Thanks Gary Gerber

I have been studying Revelations for the last couple of years (since Nephi and the Brother of Jared point us to it). I ran across this quote from Joseph Smith: "There is a grand difference and distinction between the visions and figures spoken of by the ancient prophets, and those spoken of in the revelations of John. The things which John saw had no allusion to the scenes of the days of Adam, Enoch, Abraham or Jesus...John saw that ONLY WHICH WAS LYING IN FUTURITY and which was SHORTY TO COME TO PASS...The revelations do not give us to understand of the past in relation to the kingdom of God." I immediately reflected on what I have been taught from a young age, that Revelation 12 was about the war in heaven. A premortal battle, but now I was faced with some new information that required revelation to reconcile. I spent weeks pondering how this could be referencing something in our day as opposed to the premortal realm. First thing revealed was that like all things, Revelation is multivalent. Much like a parable, where there is a feel good lesson on the surface, but there is always something more valuable for those who put in the time to look AND are willing to be taught something new. Well, one night while lying in bed thinking about this, the distinct impression came to my mind asking "What ideology is a reflection of Satan's plan on earth?". Of course my answer was Socialism (Communism/Marxism). I then got the impression to look at the history of the modern Socialist movement. While Socialism has been around for hundreds if not thousands of years, you can actually trace the resurgence back to the end of the French Revolution in 1796 with Francois Noel Babeuf's "Conspiracy of Equals". If you start to look at the growth and acceptance of Socialism in Europe and Asia you will see it line up with the restoration of the church on the American continent. So much so that as the Woman (or Church) was fleeing into the wilderness on one side of the world, the other side of the world was receiving the Communist Manifesto (Marx, 1948). At the same time that the Church was being restored in the latter days, the seeds of Socialism were also being sewn. Comparing the number of souls saved (through the ordinances of the Gospel and temple work) to the number of lives lost due to socialist/communist regimes since the early 1800's is also very telling that the war is being fought in these, the latter days, on this earth.

Spiritually brilliant interview. I love it thank you

When he said that there were those that would complain about the hardships of this life. And that a loving Gos wouldn't do that. It made me realize that some of us brought this idea with them to this side, or remember it so e way. Or even a conclusion put there theought their hard life if they had one. It shook me to the core , because i hear it all the time and even from some members. But a loving parent would not keep their children from all harm, for how can they learn about 🧬 fe and its hardships and its great joys , if your protecting them completely. I have one short story to explain this . When me and my brother were young. I was ten at the time my brother was eight. Dad told us he had to go get the Deer he had shot. So he told us to follow his orders strictly and vary not and follow the path before us to the truck and wait for him till he returned. So we were scared at first, because we were in the Rockies. But we did as he said , and in doing so , though we were scared. We felt a sense of pride getting back to the truck bu ourselves. Unbeknownst to us. Dad was followinf the whole time above us on a ridge watching the whole time making sure we got back. So as with God we were never in any real danger. For he was watching. But he allowed us to prove ourselves to ourselves and build confidence in our selves . For he already knew what we were capable of . My father told ke what he did just a few months ago. Im 65 now. And how i loved him for this. What a great Dad. And he is my step father. And yet , he is my real Father. Im sealed to him now.

SPOT FREAKING ON

With listening to this discussion, The thought that comes to my mind is we already chose what side we were on in our pre-earth existence. We already chose the correct plan, the righteous plan. And there is only one plan that suffering/unfairness will actually come to an end. And that is God and Jesus’s plan. If you choose Satan‘s plan, Suffering and unfairness will last for eternity. I also think that the suffering that comes with this life is because of choices that are made, either by ourselves, those around us or the ones who come before us. I guess the point is that the choices that are made always have consequences and they don’t just impact you as an individual.

Heavenly Father is weeding us out as to the level of life/eternal life we are willing to live.

I am reminded of a quote by Joseph Smith. If people knew how wonderful even the telestial kingdom is . Many on this earth would commit suicide to get there. That spooked me beyond imagining.

I am a Telestial person -- I know it, and that is the Kingdom in which I will have all the happiness that I deserve.

this is very uplifting, I love this!

Very thought provoking! Thank you.😉

2 Nephi 28: 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God-he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. Universalism is an apostate doctrine and directly fulfills Nephi's warning.

and as Lucifer was a morning star so was Judas in the inner circle.

Faith is at the core of everything.

A lot of people don’t know that a soul is really the combination of the spirit and the mortal body. So some people who are talking about near death experiences mention that they lose their souls who rises to heaven.

So exact so great an explanation and interpretation. 100% spot on

Possession. This is a very interesting topic. Why did Bro Ellsworth say we don't talk abt it for very good reason? Because my son and I have both had experiences with evil spirits. Not trying to possess us, but for me, something worse. I think we should be talking abt evil spirits more, so when we encounter them, we are prepared.

Really interesting... Thank you!! Very much enjoyed this discussion, much food for thought 🤔😊

I'm in so many wars and conflicts in my life 🧬 myself. I love 💕😇❤️🤩😍🥰🌹😘 this program and The gospel of Jesus Christ though 💬💭🤔🥰😊.

I think you’re missing a big part of the reasons that spirits felt the plan was unfair. It wasn’t just the unfairness on earth, it was that some wouldn’t EVER be going back to live with their Heavenly Parents and their loved ones on the earth. They would chose something else, and be separated forever.

Interesting music for LSD discussion!😄

Man is that he might have joy. But we have a Father who weeps over His children.

Great interview! Where in Brazil have you served your Mission? Brazilian hug from South Florida.

There is an Accuser or Adversary figure in the story of Buhdda. He does everything possible to keep Buhdda from attaining enlightenment. The interesting part is that when Buhdda does finally overcome him, they become friends because Buhdda recognizes that the Adversarial role is necessary and the Adversary knows he us just playing a role. In our theology, Satan doesn't know that he is fulfilling part of the plan by creating the requisite opposition.

It was my understanding that Jesus gave the glory that he received for being the Savior to the Father. It was not required. Lucifer wanted to keep that glory.

Absolutely loved this!

We are here in this earth no only to get a body but to develop our divine attributes and overcome our human nature. Heavenly father has given us so many tools to achieve our divine potential, scriptures, the Holy Ghost, priesthood, etc. and for most JesusChrist's atonement if we repent. We all accepted to be here it is like receiving a mission call we knew what our circumstances we will be born, society, race, family's circumstances etc. but we knew we have Jesus to guide us and we were confident we can make it. Heavenly Father is a judge God he will not give you more trials than other people. The balance of justice is equal for everyone some will be tried at early age like being an orphan , other as a teens, other as adults everyone in the due time, some mentally, some emotionally, some physical, some temporal. Then we will see God's hands in our lives and become grateful and be converted and gain charity.

I am not the same person I was before I joined the Church but I learned a lot through some tough experiences and living life and constantly looking for the truth in order to ascend. I am no longer so naive but still Satan tries me bc that is his job … Mr opposition! It’s necessary. We are not in equity… but equal like the constitution declares . No respecter of person but God hated what the Lamanites did to the woman and children and Jesus treated the Pharisees different than his Disciples so I believe he loves everyone but if we want His divine love there are conditions that have to be met. Justice and mercy will work together. In the temple he says the purpose of this life was to know good from evil…. We are not going to have fairness in this life. One General Authority said “ if you think life is fair, you’re on the wrong planet. I don’t believe all raised their hand to agency and Jesus. We are here to be sanctified so you can’t be sanctified unless you get burned. Universalism is what Satan proposed in the war in heaven and that’s why he lost and got kicked out without a body!! Yes we bare one another’s burdens but not their baggage! Otherwise we have a co- dependence thing going on with one another and the person can not progress. My parents were occupied by Nazis for 5 years…. Total tyranny… total …. Which means becoming a slave! Satan always has a counterfeit to everything that’s good! Satan doesn’t have a plan! He just has tools.

Wait!...I was counting on bliss. "No more pain and sorrow" Ah. Say it aint so.....😇

Super Thanks. I have been thinking about how Satan, Lucifer could persuade so many away from Father. This is very helpful. You lost me on the Aaronic priesthood bit on individual vs Melchizedek & Family. I’m not a philosopher. Just a geologist. Lol. If you talked more on that please point me to the discussion.

I really love this video. I've always wanted to write a book on how the war in heaven has continued on the earth today. My heart has always been with God and Christ. It's been very tender towards the Savior since I was very small. I remember watching a crucifixion scene when I was around 6 and I just sobbed watching Him being crucified. My patriarchal blessing mentions the Savior, so I know we had a relationship prior to my birth. I love Him very much. I love being in the Temple. One question though. I am always worried not being worthy or not measuring up. I'm a worrier by nature; which is not good, I know. I want my children to be there with me, but one is not active, and another is gay and gone totally off the rails. I have a daughter that won't let us see our grand children; so I wonder what we did wrong. I know people where all their children, girls and boys, went on missions; I had two boys go. I know I'm rambling, but I really feel like I've failed in my stewardships and have plenty of reasons why I won't make it. And why maybe I wouldn't feel comfortable; because there would be so many people who served a better earth life than me. I just thought I would get your opinion based on your understanding. I've been watching your videos and have gained a high opinion of you conclusions and commentary. Thanks for all you do.

Thank you, that was fascinating!

Thanks!

hmmm we have different definitions of suffering. I'm 73 and fell and broke my shoulder (Patella?) and I'm in a lot of pain. one of my definitions of suffering is pain

Brilliant!

A thought that has come to me about the war is that e sometimes think of it as too binary. I think there are 1. those who didn't want to take the chance, so they surrender the offer agency to Luci. 2. There are those who accepted the plan of agency knowing the risk, so as to become more like The Father. 3. There were those who agreed to come here simply to have agency and not care or consider the eternal consequences, they just wanted to "eat, drink, and be merry?

why the idea of a war in heaven is only considered as a spirit world conflict when ancient book clearly show that ancient society were fighting each other with spaceship missiles etc. ?

My favorite scripture to understand heaven and life and feelings

49:05 Interesting question I just had... Even with God's power and glory, was Satan's plan even feasible? I've long held a theory that our bodies are soooo important to our progression because they are what ultimately grant us our absolute agency in eternity. Before we came to earth we were granted whatever agency the Father afforded us (hence the choices that lead to the war in heaven) but no more than the limits he set. Our bodies allow us to choose up to and including outright disobedience and defiance. Ex. If someone were to try and "cast me out" of their presence in the name of Christ I could simply stand there and laugh and disobey. Conversely, when Satan and those cast out with him are commanded by that same authority they are compelled to obey without argument. What is the difference between these two examples? We are clothed in a body making a soul. Maybe this is why it is said that the dead viewed their time in the spirit world as a prison (even the righteous who longed for the glorious ressurection afforded by Christ's atonement) and also why those same spirits without the saving ordinances and temple covenants/ordinances have a harder time repenting is because they are far more easily influenced and tossed about as spirits than if they were housed in a tabernacle of flesh and bone. This is also why Temple Work for our dead is so crucial. We afford them more agency to repent and progress as spirits when we give them their ordinances via proxy. Therefore, had we come down and gained our bodies under Satan's plan, would he have even been able to carry it out? Is this why Satan wanted God's glory, to try and use that power to compel us to obey? And having full agency his plan would be frustrated from the very beginning? Someone set me straight if this sounds off base. Love the podcast!

Love the new intro :)

Question. What would have happened if Eve and Adam had never partaken of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil?

In Star Wars, Yoda is famous for saying that fear leads to suffering and suffering leads to hate. It kind of implies that if we have faith we won't suffer. Suffering just happens, but with faith our suffering gains meaning and purpose. With faith, suffering can lead to charity, and I don't think there is really any other path to charity than through suffering. THAT is the plan, and I could see why (as Dan Ellsworth points out) it could be easy to accuse individuals based on belief in this truth. Suffering can lead to hate as well. Especially the FEAR of suffering. It just depends on if we allow Christ in to turn our suffering into good or not. Ironically Anakin commits horrible atrocities in his quest to stop suffering. That exact thing happens in our world. It has Satan and War in Heaven written all over it.

I've often had discussions with Born-Again Christians who proclaim that all you have to do is pray for Jesus to come into your life and you're saved. They condemn the LDS faith because they "...try to buy their way into heaven with works." Another sad doctrine that will have to be corrected in the next life, if they don't accept the church here. ☹

Is the word super natural of God or is it mysterious so it would be of the devil. When I think of God I think that I would use the word spiritual not supernatural

lasers of truth in this one folks - PRAY ATTENTION! :)

Very interesting conversation. Good things to remember. Thank you. Sometime would you give some perspectives on “the wrath of God”. What does that mean? How can God be wrathful and angry when he teaches the opposite?

The War in Heaven continues, as does the mystery of iniquity, or the apostasy. I think that the Restoration and the Apostasy are parallel and mirror manifestations of that war.

Great topic in conversation done well by the both of you! Do you have any other text that he might suggest to expand on what was discussed in this video?

Lucifer wanted to be the leader but was not willing to go through the atonement and all of the suffering that Jesus endured. Therefore, he started the great secret combination in the first estate. Now when Lucifer proposed his plan in the Celestial kingdom, God rejected it on the spot. So I think Satan waited until the first estate had started to begin his over through of God plan.

❤❤❤

Great interview and discussion! Why was Dan being a little obscure about the church leader who taught that the purpose of life is to show God what we want so He will give it to us? I don’t know who or what he’s referring to, and why he would be hesitant about it. Thanks!

Question: Does "a third part" really mean 33.3333% of the hosts of heaven? Or does it simply suggest there was a FIRST part (noble and great ones who fought for the Father's plan), a SECOND part, who eventually were persuaded to support it, and a THIRD part, who did not (with no specifics of how many were in each group)?

Greg, you said that the 3rd Host of Heaven that accused the other 2/3rds of 'disparity'; shouldn't the word be equality or equity? which is what is being used today?

We’ve always been fighting against communism.

But we were comfortable in his presence before we came to earth I assume.

Can accusers mean blames of their weaknesses mistakes on others reather than accepting responsibility of growth to overcome and to become more like our Heavenly parents....truly I believe that the essence or purposes of life is growth and to become and to overcome. Tell me what you think . Please ...

So does Satan hate distinctions because he can't stand the thought of someone else being above him? Because as the scriptures say, he was an angel that had authority in the presence of God. Not to mention that he was also called a son of the morning, a title that Christ was given as well. It doesn't seem that he didn't like them because he wanted equality for everyone. In fact, an apocryphal account, and I get that it's apocryphal, gives us an account that Christ had with his Apostles where one of the problems that Satan had was bowing down to Adam because he was older than Adam and wouldn't do so because Satan himself was the elder. Much like a Laman and Lemuel to Nephi. They wouldn't bow down because they were the older brothers and had the right to rule. Side note: that would also give us an explanation as to why it was that Michael and his angels fought against Lucifer and not Christ.

Michael was also Adam which he knew that he would be our earthly father He was fighting with us

The Dragon in his position it's just like in our day on RU-vid where you see trolls accusing, demeaning, saying you're stupid you're not doing this right I can do it better! Give me the power I will show you what a good and proper job I can do ! sound familiar?

please explain Mathew 11-12

OK.... but how IS the life in a celestial society to not be that wanted?

How could some want to hunt others

Would you say that satan was a part of God’s plan because of his temptation for Eve? Without her choice to eat of the tree we would not exist. Satan’s part is confusing me.

Just like how Satan deceived Eve and later Cain, he deceived spirits in the first estate and they in turn deceived other spirits until a third of the hosts had crossed the line and sinned. Then the movement was discovered and the war broke out.

Well I do not understand everything. .but if there has to be opposition in all things..satin chose to be our our opposition. We needed this for our growth fon the calisstecticks of growth in becoming more like our Heavenly parents. I believe that the essence of life is growth and to become and to overcome. A baby can grow up and become an adult. We can grow up and become like our Heavenly parents.... We came to earth. to become more like our Heavenly Father. Parents. I see it as we were just babes little children of real Heavenly parents. We desired to grow up and become more like our Heavenly parents just like our children want to grow up and become adults .we desired to come t ok earth to get a body to develop faith to go through experiences for the calisstecticks of growth in becoming more like our Heavenly parents. So when we came to earth they placed a veil of forgetfulness over our minds thus giving us the opportunity to develop faith and I can see of no other way . What do you think ?

Why do we still continue to use the words pre-existance? As intelligences, we have always existed. Then spiritual bodies were created and our intelligence was co-mingled with these spiritual bodies. Since we know nothing about being an intelligence is pre-existance before we were given the spiritual bodies? We are as eternal as our Father in Heaven is. Premortal means before mortality. And in heaven, we were premortal but not pre-existance. Does that make sense?

Life is but a short while, death is a release and this "mortality and suffering is done), guess what? Onlky the body dies but you do not, you will see that you are still you and you are an eternal spirit. This life is learning through testing and it is over, then no more suffering. Even those that do not have an equal opportunity to know and accept Jesus Christ, they will be taught and every blessing will be equal and have equity, no unfairness as you will understand. We are children of God (Heavenly Father). All will be right and everyone will have equity and fair opportunity to be a joint heir with Jesus Christ to inherit all the Father hath. I died once and was out of my body and could see my body but was no longer connected to it ( as it, as it was no longer me as I am an eternal spirit. I moved through the attic and roof and was outside and could see a large round globe that was pure white, as I moved upward toward the light I remembered Father and I felt His Love and I Love Him with all my heart. As I was about to enter the light, I remembered my sweet wife, who I met on the high school bus and we sat together. We were married at 18 and parents at 19. I looked over my shoulder down to my home and I was immediately sucked back into my body with a thud. I was tingling all over from lack of oxygen and I could not breathe or move. I thought, well I'm back and have to breathe, after the 3rd attempt I took a deep breath (like a switch was tripped allowing me to breathe), slowly the tingling left my body and I could move again. What a wonderful experience, death was easy and wonderful. I am now 84 years of age and soon to die. I tell my wife (married now 65 years), she is an invalid for the past 8 years and I visit her daily when allowed (I feed her many times purred food). She is a total invalid and cannot communicate. We are sealed in the Salt Lake Temple in 1972. I am a former Baptist minister and the son of a Baptist minister. The Holy Spirit lead me to the Book of Mormon and the missionaries. My father also read to Book of Mormon and later came to me and asked to become a member of the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The 1st year 14 member of our family joined the Church comprising 4 generations. We have been a member for 52 years. I am also the Ward organist and have been off and on depending on my callings. This is the True and Restored Church along with the Fullness of the Gospel which gives us a knowledge that we are also the Sons of God and Joint Heirs with Jesus Christ to inherit all the Father Hath. All that is required is to Love God with all your heart, mind and spirit and to Love Our Neighbors as ourselves. That is to be considerate, kind and generous to giving of our possessions to others and the needy. Forgive and remember no more offences against us, so our offences can be forgiven. It's easy if you may a decision to do it. Love you All, Amen

King Ahaz was promised a sign. The sign wasn't the birth of Christ since King Ahaz would be dead long before that happened, but Hezekiah was the sign, and he was a type for Christ just as almost all other prophets in the Old Testament were a type of Jesus Christ in some way.

I am watching on RU-vid and I don’t see what you put up to see

Does the LDS religion believe in reincarnation? Do you believe we may have lived a past life here on earth before or does this go against your doctrine. I'm struggling with why some people are born in wealthy homes and why some are born in 3rd world countries with poverty and no opportunity to really know Christ teachings like most mainstream middle class families. Why are some people given a better earth experience than others - was it earned by a past life or am I completely missing some key points to what makes us children of God. I feel so lost.

I Nephi 17 35 Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of God. But behold, this people had rejected every word of God, and they were ripe in iniquity; and the fulness of the wrath of God was upon them; and the Lord did curse the land against them, and bless it unto our fathers; yea, he did curse it against them unto their destruction, and he did bless it unto our fathers unto their obtaining power over it. 36 Behold, the Lord hath created the earth that it should be inhabited; and he hath created his children that they should possess it. 37 And he raiseth up a righteous nation, and destroyeth the nations of the wicked. 38 And he leadeth away the righteous into precious lands, and the wicked he destroyeth, and curseth the land unto them for their sakes.

Lots of people who remember the preexistence think that this is reincarnation

But EVERYBODY having the same outcome is NOT fair Why should someone who plays all day get the same as someone who works hard? How is THAT fair?

So was there a plan 'c' if Christ hadn't followed through? asking for a friend....