Note that James doesn't deny there is an oscillation in pitch during that fast riffing. He just says there's no hammering. i.e. If there is an oscillation in pitch, it isn't being achieved via his left hand. There remains the possibility that he is causing an oscillation in pitch via the actions of his right hand (see my separate comments down the thread), whether intentionally or accidentally. After all, this debate only exists because some people think they can hear such a phenomenon in the track in the first place!
0:36 That one is actually right. I was listening to the isolated guitar track of the song and that part actually sounds just like that. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-i00KPvKfedM.html
If you listen to Jason’s isolated bass track, he very clearly plays 2-2-2-2, and Jason pretty much played exactly what James played on that album when it comes to main riffs.
Not sure when this debate started.. it's ALWAYS been straight 2's with the single 3-2 on the end. You can clearly hear that. The other way sounds completely wrong.
I just did an experiment to see if I could recreate the 2-3-2-3-2-3 effect myself. Check it out here. :) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-J_05wR7EXFI.html
Just watch a video of the song on expert on Guitar Hero Metallica. It's red-red-red-red-red-red, not red-yellow-red-yellow-red-yellow. I don't understand how this is a mystery 😂
You also know that Metallica simplifies things to 11 so they can play faster live, right?? I'm not saying that 2-3-2-3-2-3 is right, I'm just saying that using their performance live as refference is pointless, since even Lars simplifies things that are very apparent (and no I'm not saying about him impovising every song). This only proves that Metallica prefers to do it that way live, it means nothing about the original song.
Hi!! What about the oficial transcription by Wolf Marshall? My brother has the official songbook and it's transcribed as 2-3 riff. I know it's not transcribed by the composer, but Marshall's work in Metallica songbooks is pretty accurate.
So i just listened to the original Metallica recording and the remastered (both posted my Metallica yt) and slowed at .25 or even .50 you hear its 2-3-2-3-2-3-2-3 on both
Ok this is my favourite Metallica song and not many seem to acknowledge how absolutely bonkers it is, probably because the lyrics are a bit cringey angsty teen type stuff, but it's funny you mention Lars not being able to keep up with what was played on the album, I've had a theory for years that he had nothing to do with it is recording, hes never seemed able to properly keep up with some of the songs on that album
Dude I'm loving the back to back Metallica videos. I just recently got back to practicing their riffs and boy does the lack of practice take its toll. It's the perfect time for me to watch these videos so thank you.
James frequently simplifies his guitar parts when he plays them live so he can sing at the same time, but in the studio he has a separate vocal track he records afterwards. So if one transcriber was watching a live performance and the other was listening to the song on the album, that would certainly explain the discrepancy. Generally, if you're hearing something more complex, you're probably right, but there are some musicians that make changes to their parts later and add embellishments to their live performances. There's one Trocadero song that has a different solo played every time, so anyone that's learning it is encouraged to just make something up. Personally, I like the sound of the more complex version, so I'd go with that if you're just playing guitar and not singing (or you think you're that good)
Very true. What I found interesting is James frequently has his guitar in the vocal booth when recording vocals, probably so he can make sure he can sing and play the parts together!
Also consider that it's from ...and Justice for All, so theres probably a bunch of extra guitar tracks doing different things. Hell, there's a song (I forget which one) from that album that Metallica had to learn from a cover band (Battery, from recollection) because the album version had so many guitar tracks they weren't sure which ones to play live, whereas the cover band were playing what they heard from the aggregate
James said that they got carried away making the Justice album too complicated and they simplify it live. I imagine this is a case of that because I’m definitely hearing 2-3 on the album. I like it the album way. Sounds more appropriately schizophrenic than the standard 1 note doggy paddle.
Nah, what you hear on the record actually in the pick scratch giving it an accent, due to the super scooped sound. I think a straight B is pretty much it..It is a fact that when transcribing by ear, you ALWAYS make things more complicated that they are (not my quote BTW, P Gilbert, J Petrucci, J Becker, M Friedman, have mentioned this a thousand times)...But if you want to play it the crazy way, cuddos!!!! I always play the song just how I hear them, and also usually simplify (or personalise) parts to suit my playing and fingering. As Yngwie once said: "If it sounds good it is good.."
The album is definitely 2-2 as well. Because of how strong James's palm muting is, the note is a little sharp which creates an illusion of a higher sound. But it's clearly one note.
@@gregfalc That theory makes zero sense. Under your theory they would all be sharp. It wouldn't bounce back and forth. Whoever started that theory is making others believe that a palm mute could alter every other 16th note. EVERY note is palm muted there, not every other.
I've done a cover of this song. I played straight 2-2-2-2-2, it sounds like 2-3-2-3-2. The palm muting does affect the sound of the guitar enough that it could sound like the 2-3-2-3-2 variation, but I'm pretty sure it's just 2-2-2-2-2.
I’m loving these videos breaking down timing and whatnot, great work. If you ever get the chance you should break down the counting on the overdriven variation of the main riff from the the thing that should not be. I don’t know why, but I can’t count it properly to save my life.
Perhaps they played it in the studio version the more complex way and decided (as with many other songs) "nah, thats too annoying live. Lets keep it simple. Nobody will hear the difference".
I'm pretty sure that the easy way 2-2-2-2-2-2 is the correct way. Is not about complexity, is about sound, and the easy way sounds identical to the studio version.
Another thing everyone seems to forget about and I think it's the most crucial Metallica has never been (and probably will never be) THAT technically complicated Why would James write a riff that requires so much left/right hands synchronization ? It is really hard, especially at that speed, to play 2-3-2-3-2-3 and pick every note It's too hard to do and pointless That would just be more a Megadeth thing to do (Holy Wars, Take no prisoners, etc)
That whole album is way more technical than any other of their albums. Get the tab book. It's crazy what's going on there. To play that stuff accurately live you'd need 4 guitars going at the same time. It's absolutely 323232. Listen to the album version. Metallica aren't playing it like that live cuz they can't physically do it anymore.
@@scythelord Maybe, but listen de James' riff tape for the song and you can clearly hear 2-3-2-3-2, and still sounds great. And, at the same time, you have evidence that James has that much technique to play it like that.
I love these videos man..keep up the great work, I know how to play and I love love love seeing other players find weird things or figure stuff out about songs we grew up loving. It's like another beautiful surprise that we didn't know about or knew about and now seeing others find it too.. it's like finding continuity errors in movies lol. N e way love the channel man
Bro, another awesome vid. Mad respect for you. Been playing for over about 16 years now and I consider myself an adequate player. Your videos keep teaching me new stuff though, and I love that. Would really love lessons from you!
My guess is that they play the upstroke with more pressure on the fret. Because the upstroke and the added pressure both slightly sharpen it up it may sound a little like 2-3 while still being fretted 2-2. Also 2-3 would be a bigger change in pitch than what is heard in the recording. I tried different ways and I think adding pressure on the upstroke sounds closest to the original and is a lot easier than 2-3.
Honestly I think its just a picking technique thing. James is far better at down strokes and has a really steep angle on downpicking, if his upstrokes aren't just as angled in the opposite direction (Which at this kind of speed just can't be done) then it would make the string go a bit sharp on the up strokes
I remember Kirk Hammett having a guitar world tutorials section in the magazine where he shows how to play the riff and he was locked into that 2nd fret and the pull off is done on the D and G string strings 5th fret slide to the 4th fret.
On the record it's also 2-2-2-2 and because of James's hard palm muting the note is a bit sharp. But you can clearly hear it's one note repeated. Aside from that, Kirk once confirmed it's 2-2-2-2 in an interview I can't seem to find now, and finally on the Justice deluxe boxset there are James's riff tapes - including this one, and it's very clearly 2-2-2-2 there too. EDIT: Oh, also on the same boxset there's Dyer's Eve demo from Jan 1988. Again, absolutely without doubt straight 2-2-2-2 there, so there goes the "they got old and surely simplified it" argument.
Sharping ALL of the notes wouldn't explain why people think it wobbles. New argument, but very tiresome to hear. Under that theory it would sound like all 3's...and it doesn't.
I've always played it like this: A|-2---2(tr)---2------0--2 D|---------------5/4---2--4 I feel like that augmented fifth sounds more like what I hear on the album. James was no stranger to harmony, he knew how to build tension. It wouldn't surprise me that he chose an augmented fifth rather than a regular power chord
Yeah, but your argument is about the live version, they sometimes do simplify those things that can be simplified for things to go more smoothly, especially when James needs to sing and play at the same time.
If you slow down the fast part in ‘one’ you can also hear 01010101, and no one will argue that it’s anything different than 000000, Dyers Eve is 222222 on the album and live
Nice vid. I think it is just 2's myself and the upstrokes sound sharp. (Because the supination of the wrist joint to execute an upstroke during palm muting pushes your palm into the string causing the string to go sharp)
I've never heard this track before, listening to it for the first time I hear some sort of modulation on the guitar track. I can't tell if it's a slight phase or something but there's definitely a modulation effect on the guitar at least on the intro and that's what I hear causing the interpreted pitch shift.
Could the confusion have arisen from the fact that the first note on B is less muted, followed by a rapid series of heavily palm-muted B's, and James pressing hard with his palm on the string to mute it has the effect of tightening the string slightly, which in turn shifts the pitch up slightly, giving the impression that he might be playing something closer to C notes some of the time? Just a thought...
Or another theory - the down-picking and up-picking are both on B but have very slightly different pitches for some reason (possibly related to how hard the muting is in place - as per my previous comment), giving the impression of alternating B's and C's?
I've thought about this some more overnight, and I think there might be something in it - when James is heavy palm-muting, during down-picking he's probably pushing slightly inwards (towards the strings) as well as downwards, then on the up-picking he probably releases that pressure slightly. So you could get a natural, subtle oscillation in pitch as the tension on the A-string varies during the alternative down/upstroking.
I can't remember if Dyers Eve ended up on GH Metallica but if it did, the multitracks for all of the rock band and guitar hero games are incredibly easy to find online so I would suggest pulling out the isolated guitar track and seeing if you can get a closer listen.
I think you're right. I've thought it was the 2-3 for years actually but I just found a rip of the guitar tracks and u can actually hear it clear as day he's chugging that B note
its 2s. dial in a super compressed scooped tone on a mesa/boogie amp, and then have the low end get caught up with the bass guitar, (it is there in the mix) and it gets muddy and woofy. its straight 2s. i hate this arguement. lol
I slowed dyer's eve with youtube's slow down and using transcribe and I think it's 2-3-2-3-2-3, isn't there a video of metallica playing that song live?
Can you break down the Disposable Heros riffs..i cannot work out some of the rhythm parts on that song, its almost likes hes changing the patterns/timing of his pickstrokes at various times. I cannot understand what hes doing lol
@@TheArtofGuitar hard to explain..basically the rythym part that comes in after the intro and the short pause..the rapid open string chugging part without drums then the drums slowly come in. That part. Cannot figure out the picking pattern
If anything your upstrokes would be lower. You have more pressure during a downstroke than an upstroke. Still, a terrible argument. Under the "altered pitch from palm muting" theory, it would sound like 3-2-3-2, and not the other way around.
Is it the other instruments on the recording making it sound like 2-3-2-3 because live he was clearly playing 2-2-2-2-2 Or maybe they simplified it for live shows and not to make it easier difficulty wise but to make it easier endurance wise since they play a big set list?
I've been an hardcore Metallica fan for the first 6 to 7 years of my guitar playing and I've also run in the same doubt and analyzed it extensively. I came to the same conclusion that it's played like 2-2-2-2 in the original recording as well. Glad to see someone studied it like this and came to the same conclusion. Also the guitar hero chart which was supposedly recreated with Metallica themselves showed that the note staid the same also in expert mode which is the one that maps every note change.
Well you could have skipped the whole studying thing. And just looked up the fucking tab on songster. But OKAY 🤣 Or or. Better yet. Bought the And Justice Tab book if this was such a god damn mystery to everyone. I wouldn't be half as salty if this wasn't completely fucking obvious.
@@tristanwright9733 yea I was a bit too intense on that studying thing but I got carried away. These are all hypothesis by the way because official transcriptions were not made by them personally
Ok, it is now clear to everyone that it is 2-2-2-2, but I am not sure about that gallop/triplets is it 3-3-0 of 3-2-0, that is hardest part for me to play tight, and is the third note, 0 palm muted? EDIT: 3-2-0 is correct.
An isolated guitar track of the song slowed to .5 or even .75 speed is also pretty conclusive. I personally just do not hear a 1/2 step difference. There is something weird about it that might be a slight difference, but definitely not 1/2 step. I personally have always attributed any potential difference (it's so slight that I can't even be sure there IS a pitch difference) to James' technique; he down picks so much that it is a significantly stronger motion for him, slightly bending the pitch a tad sharp at times while his less-used upstroke was less aggressive.
Honestly, it was no debate for me until a few days ago when I was playing along for the first time in ages. I'm not sure, but I think they're both wrong. I think when the riff first starts its just 2222 but after the slide, i would say its the B and then C 16th notes. Addressing the live version, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that they changed it live so its easier.
You would also hear a clear hang on the C note when it comes to the fill in the riff. 2323 then 32 before changing string. Just.. clearly doesn't happen.
I think the difference is in the live version and the album version. Album version definitely had the alternating, I think it’s easy to hear but they would definitely keep it “simple” and just play the single power chord version live. And I’m pretty sure that performance is after the time period they made AJFA so they would’ve more reason to keep it simple
In the studio it's 2-3-2-3-2-3, you can hear it clearly if you hear it slowed or just the guitar track. But live they do the 2-2-2-2-2-2, becaus it took less stamina. I mean, they aren't doing a warmup exercise on stage.
the only thing id say is that that live show was from 2008 era - james is known for simplifying the riffs over time and since there isnt any real footage of them playing this song live in their prime (or even the ...and justice tour) so i feel its that that caused all the speculation
Here’s my comment. Let’s review Eye of the Beholder. i could only find two shows one where the debate is That show can be found live i. the 90’s and James is waisted. They blow the beginning he gets pissed off and We never see that song live again until a few years ago where it’s James and some other band riffing a little bit. I learned to play this song about 5 years ago. still one of my all time favorites. My question to you is. why do you think it’s not played live? the first part of the song is a little tricky in timing with the chords but I’m wondering if it’s all the changes period. there’s a lot and live and waisted in beer. igor have made it more difficult to perform without mistakes and getting lost with all of the returns and turnarounds
Look into the chorus of Master of Puppets. So many tabs and cover bands play it wrong. The second bar of the chorus is rooted on the 7th fret, 7-7-7-7-8----7, but everyone plays it wrong as 8-8-8-8-8---7....
One thing I want to mention about metallica live videos. Like you, I've been learning and playing metallica riffs for 20 years. That said, many of their faster and more difficult riffs are simplified for performance as to make it easier for James to sing and play and move around, etc... If you slow down the track on the album, it is very clear that they are doing the "2,3,2,3..." method. But seeing a live video of James doing that riff differently, in a performance that looks like it was within the last several years, doesn't prove anything other than how 30 years later, he's made it easier on himself. I believe both tabs are 100% correct, just mislabeled. They should specify "live version" vs "studio version". Andriy Vasylenko (spelled incorrectly I think) has a very good video about several examples of this in metallica. I believe it's titled something like "songs metallica plays wrong". It's a breakdown of a handful of songs that are played one way on the album, and totally different live.
If you slow it down you can clearly hear it's all 2s. There's a slight difference in tone, which is just because of the massive distortion of the sound, but nowhere close to a semitone. You will hear the same slight variation if you go to something like guitar pro digital track with distorted guitar and slow it down... Then there's also the most obvious thing: If you tried playing it the 2-3 way yourself, it would sound wrong, and nothing like the record.
I always thought it was 23232323 until i saw them playing it live in that exact same video. As a result I also play it as 222222, but it is possible that they simplified it live and also because they are older. It's a shame there is no video footage of them playing it live back in the Justice days where they definitely would have played it as it was written. They never actually played the song live until 2004.
You know, in every band I've ever been in, there are certain riffs that I sometimes play the "easy" way and the "hard way," so that could be at play here. Also, I think it looks like from this video that JH isn't alternating 2-3 he's just occasionally putting 3 down as an accent. Until we see a video from 1987 or something we will never know.
Don't know where this legend came from. Was a huge fan of Metallica when I was a teenager in the 90's and back then, the official song book was already 2-2-2-2-2-2. And if you're familiar with Hetfield earlier riffs, you know there's no single chance he played it 2-3-2-3-2-3 Listen to Battery, Disoposable Heroes, etc. The typical sound of Metallica comes from strumming the bass note to make it sound like a motor engine or a machine gun.
Helloooo...James is not playing these days exactly as he did back in 1988(look at the intro riff of Blackened..)so this might be happening right here in Dyers Eve.Slow down the album version and find out
Haven't listened to the song in years. Just went back to listen. I hear all 2s, but I can definitely see where some may think it's 2 3 2 3 2. Been playing guitar for 27 years
