The Iraq War 

Great to hear Rory getting Alastair on the back foot. Both angry, disagreeing, yet still respectful. Refreshing!

First time I have heard Rory swear. I do respect Alastair and agree with him on many issues. But the Iraq war was a black mark against Blair and the whole New Labour project and undermined the good work done on the economy reducing poverty etc. The worst thing it has done is that people no longer believe intelligence from our intelligence agencies even when they got it spot like the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I do accept though that the United States was going to invade anyway and that the neo cons led by Cheney had already convinced Bush that invasion was necessary so containment was off the table. Yes the UK could have sat it out but it probably wouldn't have made much difference to what the neo cons wanted to do they wanted war.

"They f*cked up really, really bigly." Well (and pithily) said, Mr Stewart.

The thing that gets me worked up about this is Alastair Campbell's ignorance about Middle East dynamics. Even as Rory Stewart tries to explain it to him. There is zero take-up on this point.

Excellent as always. My one overall gripe is Alastair is too bombastic and Rory too well mannered. What is good with this one is Rory standing his ground. Whether I agree or not, more of this please.

Rory’s maxim of ‘Disagreeing agreeably’ put to the test and surviving (but it got tense at times!)

Briillant episode. Love the tension and serious adults talking about serious things. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Can’t be easy for either of you.

I think Robin Cook made the most convincing argument against going to a war that would do far more harm that any of the other possible outcomes

Thanks for doing that and I can't wait for the second part. Great to hear Alastair's take on it.

That was fascinating. Rory made a superb interlocutor. Polite, erudite, brushed aside the occasional straw man, and returned to the central point each time there was a derailment, and confronted Alistair head on with the hard truths. I wish more political interviews could be like this, but it's probably the specific format of this channel and the relationship between the two of them which made it possible.

There are only two alternative views reasonably open. The first is that the decision to invade Iraq was criminal because it was made without any justification at all and was simply a war crime carried out by Blair and the relevant members of the executive. That view is based on a conclusion that Blair and his executive lied about the threat posed by Iraq in order to justify an invasion that was carried out for a quite different reason namely that the UK and its allies wanted a regime change because it suited them. Part of that process involved manipulating the intelligence services to produce a case justifying a decision to go to war. This is what occurred in the United States where the intelligence apparatus was politicized and produced the "evidence" Bush required to justify the invasion. The second view is that the invasion decision was simply the result of a very high level of incompetence and negligence on the part of Blair and his advisors. This view is based on the conclusion that the intelligence services were so utterly incompetent that Blair should be excused for his conduct. It is the view that Rory prefers to subscribe to even though he seems to find it hard to believe. The nonsense from Campbell about the Iraqi threat is about as desperate as it gets. There was no evidence that Iraq posed a threat to the UK at the time or later. The argument (without evidence) never went beyond pointing out that Saddam was a nasty dictator and imagining a threat to the UK that might have emerged eventually if various improbable scenarios occurred. The nonsense about WMD and UN inspectors is typical obfuscation by Campbell and was utterly debunked by the inspectors themselves before the decision to invade was made.

Well done Rory and thank you for promoting a better understanding of other cultures before we meddle in things we don't understand.

Classic episode. An honest unfiltered debate.

Putting aside the morality, and the enormous human cost, this was a blunder of the highest order, purely from a geopolitical perspective. For Campbell to suggest that Blair was committed to the war for strategic reasons just confirms my belief that Blair was clueless on the actual subject matter of almost everything he got involved in. Great political operator, but awful in terms of deciding policy.

I admire Alistair for facing scrutiny on something so obviously disastrous. Rory said he was wrong and has changed his mind, I wonder if A will come to see all the pain and suffering caused?

Loyalty is wonderful, up to a point. Campbell's loyalty to Blair is past that point, beyond which it's a character flaw.

Please can you have more of these debates where you each take an opposing view on a subject, becomes very boring when you agree with each other all the time, it’s refreshing for the listener to hear this kind of respectful debate

I would like to ask Alastair the question: when was the last time you genuinely thought to yourself "thank god we went to war in Iraq and toppled Saddam Hussein"? Personally, I can not remember ever thinking that.

This is an incredible episode, well worth any money. I'm glad they had the time and platform to clamly go through the evidence and focus on not only facts but the root cause analysis with human factors. Rory does a masterpiece in diligently examining every piece of evidence and asking questions. He's also proposing ways the system could be improved and gives plenty of wise, detailed, and situational feedback. I wish all facts were examined to this level of intellectual scrutiny, maybe we wouldn't go around the world killing so many people in pointless wars.

"You can't say that! You can't say that!" - Campbell's response to every question.

Campbell defends Blair’s insight when it turned out he was completely blind and had no insight whatsoever and Campbell is still blind to the actual reality.

Impressive and dynamic-helps to clarify the thinking behind the decision, We need to learn from this disaster.

Incredibly complex and sensitive subject that the two of you handled well, in spite of your differences.

Just wanted to thank Alistair for taking the time to cover this issue. Discussion of the subject is clearly difficult.

Very insightful, thank you for this dialogue!

I needed to hear this, I'd always been anti war thanks to Benn's speech but finally a lot of the unsaid other side today makes me understand it a lot more.

This was Pandora's Box, changed the world, changed the course of history, we still live with the repercussions, all bad. I'm leftish, but Blair was wrong wrong wrong. This was also the end of his career and what had been a relatively benign and progressive leadership. And there were no WMD.

Think Alastair spends too much time deflecting the UK and Tony Blair’s involvement. Because America, the special relationship, Poland Denmark were in too etc etc I get that Tony Blair is his friend but the PM needs to take responsibility and Alastair needs to admit they made a catastrophic mistake, the repercussions of which are still being felt today

Fascinating discussion. Disappointedly and disgracefully the deaths and maiming of British service personnel are not mentioned at all. It’s accepted that the USA were going to go regardless of any UK involvement. We’re told that America’s forces made up 95 per cent of the total number. The UK’s involvement in numbers was minimal. We didn’t need to go. British lives could have been saved but were sacrificed. I hear no remorse in this conversation, unless I missed it somewhere

I watched the invasion of Iraq on Al Jazeera while sitting in my lounge room in Jakarta. No "embedding" with the Al Jazeera journalists. I saw children in hospitals injured in the bombing. I saw two Al Jazeera journalists targetted and killed by a US aircraft. I saw the devastation inflicted on the civilian population in Iraq. All these two are talking about is the noise behind the decision to illegally invade Iraq, illegal in the sense that the aggressors did NOT have UN licence to do so. The US military were not allowed to publish figures on the number of civilians killed. Estimates that I have seen put the number at at least 100,000. I like Alastair but on this issue he is no more than an apologist for the tragedy imposed upon the Iraqi population. Not once have I heard him say anything about the reality that was inflicted upon the Iraqi people. I know that Saddm was a demon, but whose responsibility was it to free the country of him?

I have been listening and watching these episodes for a while and have been holding off listening to this one. Alastair STILL has no shame and that is so very disappointing. I am afraid that everything he says/does is tarnished due to this event and inability to admit they were wrong...

38:38 The greatest moment in the history of _The Rest is Politics_ podcast, Rory F-Bomb! 😆

Now that was Interesting, well done, very brave.

9/11 and then it all kicked off - people on US streets wanted action, whoever it was against...

Campbell will never accept he got it wrong and that he has blood on his hands. He’s in complete denial. He is responsible for much of the mistrust that now permeates the political domain. Again, he’ll never acknowledge it. Fair play to Rory for calling him out. Campbell sounded rattled at the end - he’s a clever bloke, who must be suffering from high levels of cognitive dissonance.

I can't help but think listening to this thinking, if Saddam had chemical weapons in the 80's and was using them, why was he not worthy of being invaded then? It's the fact that Alastair and Tony somehow can't fathom that leaving Saddam in place might be the lesser of two evils. Our current situation in the Middle-East now draws a direct connection with the hubris of the Western powers who thought they could topple the power structure of multiple nations and that they could install Western style democracy. I remember being a teen at the same and seeing diagrams of how Saddam had his chemical and nuclear weapons in bunkers. It was all total bullshit put out to convince the greater public, because they knew that without this cause they would not have the support for war. If they had not lied, the British system may have done its job and we would not have supported this war. Iraq/Afghanistan, along with the 2008 crisis, is the reason that an entire generation is disengaged with politics. They simply do not believe the system works anymore and who can blame them?

I like how Alistair is so willing to absolve people he worked with of the responsibility of the death of a million people. Even compared to Brexshit, the adventurism he supported is the biggest foreign policy mistake we have made in the modern era. The fact that he can't see it was a mistake is just dumbfounding. In a just world he'd probably be in jail

Fantastic and nuanced discussion. I'm hoping to hear two questions answered, at the time (i.e. without hindsight) what decisions did Alastair disagree with and secondly if he knew then what we know now how does he think things would have been handled differently?

Rory's commentary was interesting, I think Campbell is simply unable to accept what he is ultimately shared in responsibility for and has to defend it. It really seems like the public was mislead by Campbell etc and the cause for war was unjustified, and they knew it, his defence here is weak and unconvincing.

Very spirited questions of Alastir and standing ground by Rory. Great discussion

21.30secs - and there were have it. Jizzing about power and prestige and getting excited by the process and impressing the Americans. Wood for the trees, Ali?

Campbell’s spending a lot of time defending the honour of both himself and Blair here, arguing the point of whether the decision was morally right in a personal sense, as opposed to Stewart who seems to be arguing on the actual consequences and mechanics of the invasion. That’s why Campbell readily dismissed Stewart’s persistent questioning of the intelligence procurement - for him its very much about the immediate moment of the decision being made and the people involved in its making.

absolutely exceptional episode! Rory was superb! Perhaps Alastair might have a more introspective (&less defensive pushing a narrative) approach if it weren't for thr fact that many of the key players (e.g. Tony blair) are still very active in policy making and within the sphere of intl orgs..

This is the first TRIP I've not enjoyed. I like Alistair yet I feel he is being somewhat disingenuous here and I wish it were otherwise. Putting hindsight aside, I remember distinctly my thoughts at the time of the Iraq War. Firstly, I believed then that the UN inspectors should have been given more time - certainly they said precisely this. Secondly, It seemed clear to me that, in the post-9/11 period, the US were hell bent on taking on Saddam regardless of the fact that Iraq was not behind the attack. Blair appeared far to willing to support this intention. Thirdly, I was very mistrustful of the 'intelligence' contained in both the September Dossier and the February Dossier (Dodgy Dossier). I do suspect that the intelligence may have been 'sexed up' possibly with the knowledge of Blair and even Alistair - albeit for reasons that they thought were the right ones (it is my belief). As a result I was very strongly against the war and I would have marched in London on 15th Feb 2003 had I not had other commitments. How strong my feelings were on these factors is best suggested by the fact that I am not at all a pacifist. I'm an ex-British Army infantry soldier and I fully supported Operation Desert Storm (the Gulf War). But for being in a reserved (Government) occupation at the time, I would have happily served there myself (I received call papers). A nation going to war is such a momentous decision it must always be a last resort and the case for doing so absolutely cast iron. In the case of the Iraq War I do not believe either were true. It was a catastrophic mistake and one for which I feel we are still suffering from - both in reputational terms abroad and for reasons of trust regarding politics, politicians in general and most specifically the Labour Party within the UK. However, today we actually DO have the benefit of hindsight and therefore, I feel Alistair's lack of contrition is a failing (I only wish that he vocalise this though - I don't want anymore sleep to be lost as do I like Alistair). That's not to say that ALL the blame lays with Blair and his Government, because my understanding is that Dearlove has much greater culpability. And indeed the US Bush administration were highly at fault. I would recommend the book by Brian Jones 'Failing Intelligence' for background reading - he was the Head of UK DIS (Defence Intelligence Staff) upon nuclear, biological and chemical weapons section at the time in question.

Campbell was way out of his league in the political decisions made regarding the Iraq war. The wrong decision was made which resulted in significant and unnecessary loss of life. There was no weapons of mass destruction, which was the primary reason to justify war.

Stay pals guys. Fascinating discussion ...

This was a brilliant listen

Very interesting. Thank you!

As someone who was against the war from the beginning, if anyone likes having their views challenged listen to Christopher Hitchens on his justification for the conflict. It's the closest I've ever come to being in support.

It's easy to go on about hindsight but there were millions at the time, many of them Labour supporters or at least sympathetic, who protested against this action and knew it to be wrong. Personally I felt it would lead to Iraq splitting along racial/ ethnic as the country is a western invention but more important strengthen Iran's position as a regional power. It also did much to destroy Blair's personal credibility. One simply can't get away with blaming hindsight. It was a big call, Blair's mind was made up and it was WRONG!

Things didn’t work out as we hoped! Hundreds of thousands of deaths Alistair including UK and USA people. Robin Cook could see the consequences so why couldn’t you and Blair?

Alistair I’ve heard you give great rational analysis of many topics but I’m afraid on Iraq you’re coming across as defensive . On one hand you say there were intelligence failures but then spend time defending them?

There is truly no hope for the world if the individuals involved in waging the Iraq war can still sit in front of a microphone and claim that, firstly, Saddam was a tyrant and therefore the UK was morally obliged to remove him (and only him alone); and that they still stand by the decision in hindsight even in seeing the inexcusable human cost, and the destabilization of the region. This is incorrigible immorality and deceit.

Extremely interesting topic! Do many more episodes on this!

The most evasive Alastair C. that I've heard so far.

I would like to hear what Tony Blair and Alastair back then thought about the interrogation of agent curveball in Germany. He is sometimes referred to as the key source for evidence of the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. But apparently to the intelligence officers speaking to him it was clear that he made all of that up out of personal anger towards Saddam's regime. This ultimately lead to the German government under chancellor Schröder withdrawing all support for an invasion of Iraq.

Wouldn't it be great if there were a similar in-depth discussion between Rory and a Brexit campaign insider (Dominic Cummings or someone at that level) on the 2016 referendum or the Article 50 negotiations. Perhaps we will have to wait until 2036.

Awesome podcast

It's times like listening to this that I am very glad I am not in Government and don't have to make these sorts of horrible decisions.

Alastair did protest too much; Rory challenged him convincingly. Thought it was a good listen.

It reminds me of Robert McNamara who just got into more trouble every time he opened his mouth over Vietnam!

Alistair, a passionate defence, but your main defence is based upon the fact that Saddam had WMD’s in the past. The film ‘In the loop’ is as an accurate depiction of the war as your defence to go to war. Just admit you buckled under pressure. The yanks wanted war, they wanted oil they stitched you up. Alistair, Tony B maybe a good mate but it was a huge mistake that cost thousands of lives. The hawks got the oil - mission accomplished.

RIP Dr David Kelly

Campbell shifty as ever.

We got it wrong I think. But I also remember what the world was like back in 2003 . former airman.

Trying very hard to defend the indefensible

Rory around 38:00 gets heated and really puts in on Alastair. Lovely stuff, very interesting and sad that is our legacy

Well done you two!!

Rory for Prime Minister!!

I find Rory's position of attacking the Intelligence Officers really jarring - is he (as a former civil servant, and a former minister) really encouraging ministers to systematically disregard the advice they are given by civil servants? (Especially in cases where the civil servants have much more expertise and the minister has none) The analogy I'd want to give is Kwarteng's minibudget where he disagreed with the civil servants so much the Permanent Secretary was fired [something Rory called out as a disgrace at the time] and in that case at least Kwarteng did have some economics expertise, definitely much more than Blair did on Islam/Middle East. When the chips are down I guess I agree with Alistair's position, but nevertheless this episode was great. In a similar vein to the debate about Afghanistan I do wish they'd talked more about the aftermath. It seems completely obvious to me that if the situation and had been handled differently we could've prevented ISIS/Taliban etc taking hold -- and if that had been the case people would look a lot more favourably on the war itself. In that sort of debate would be a discussion on the UK's ability to act on the international stage *without* the Americans

Just shows you can have discussion when both sides disagree and be civilised... Maybe that's why it has so few views?

Please can someone answer this question I always have about it all. As I remember the first gulf war ended with a ceasefire agreement which froze the conflict and stopped the multinational force from going all the way up to Baghdad and toppling the regime. The terms of the ceasefire were free and unhindered access to weapons inspectors. What Saddam then proceeded to do over the next few years was everything in his power to block inspectors from doing their job properly. To me, he has surely broken the terms of the ceasefire which then made the second gulf war legal. Even after he broke the terms UN security resolutions were still sought but on paper should not have been needed. I don't understand why there is this continued argument about the legality. Can someone explain?

Through out this episode I sat there and wondered how differently this interview would had developed if Alastair instead would have been allowed to, he him self, say "look, mistakes were made", and then had him go through what those mistakes were in his opinion. Then used that as a platform to start off from. I wonder if he had been as defensive about .... well about everything, if he had already been allowed to 'take the plunge' as it were on his own volition. As it were I didn't feel this interview was nearly as interesting as most of the others I've heard on this pod. 🤔 It was just an endless tirade of Alastair's about how Rory was making unfair accusations and prone to afterthoughts. What's the problem with afterthoughts? If you hope to learn something from past mistakes it is a necessity. I usually enjoy listening to Alastair but this was a bit embarrassing to be honest.

I would love to hear (and an idea for a podcast episode), both of your opinions on Noam Chomsky, both the man and his very cynical but believable theories of history and politics.

😂 very dark comedy listening to Campbell slithering around at every point so as not to give a handle or even a moment for a handle to the obvious criticism that the UK acted illegally, immorally and culpably in a war of pre-emptive aggression against a sovereign state whose danger was trumped up. Iraq had been reduced to the Stone Age and to pure posturing by the Kuwait war, and by ten years of stringent sanctions that caused the death of half a million Iraqi children (apparently 'worth it' according to Madelaine Albright). The 2nd Iraq War had NOTHING to do with 911 except spin. The real context was not the war on terror but oil and the era of the US as the single geopolitical hegemon, ie the real rogue state at the time, throwing its weight around without a thought for the way others would later copy its illegality. After 911, the UK had a chance to stop at Afghanistan, to hold the US back. Instead we gave the green light to another half million dead Iraqis and destroyed the lives of thousands of British servicemen and set the stage for the emergence or ISIS. Funny how after the discovery of Shale Oil the US lost interest in the Middle East. Given the indictment of Putin, we should see the indictment of Blair, and Campbell. No wonder he wriggles his way uncomfortably through this. It is a whitewash, he knows it, and on this matter I remain ashamed to be British.

I'm a year late to this one, but I think when you boil it down I think Blair/Labour/Britain came to the conclusion that if the United States was going in come what may, that it was best for the UK and global security that Britain lend legitimacy to American foreign policy when it was completely isolated on the UN Security Council post-9/11. Perhaps additional aerial and logistics support to America (not that it needed any) would have been more digestable than fighting shoulder to shoulder, but alas. People forget there would also have been huge pressure from America and the context of 9/11 around that time changed everything. If it makes you feel any better about it, Alastair, there's no telling what Iraq would look like in an alternate timeline. There is a very real possibility that worse could have happened, and although different lives would have been lost or spared, Sadam was a basketcase waiting to happen with a track record to prove it.

Campbell's ego and vanity really came to the fore here.

Campbell and Blair should be doing time.

Too few politicians have a a background in science.

Rory wins hands down, and for no other reason than simply following the most fundamental priciples of intelligence gathering and assessment. If Iraq had a deployment system that could reach Europe in 45 minutes, this would imply a missile platform, a structure which would be clearly observable by satellites. Alistair remains loyal to Blair's decisions for the unfortunate reason that the most difficult words anyone can ever have to say are "I was wrong".

I'm glad to hear Campbell has some sleepless nights because of Iraq. He should have some sleepless nights in prison to atone for his part in the whole debacle which led to loss of life, and loss of press freedom, brought about by his rigid defence of the actions of the UK & US. It's comforting to listen to his discomfort as he wrestles with his memory of the spin rather than the truth. A great episode about a sorry episode. Well done Rory for getting close to rattling a hint of truth out of the bars of the cage.

This is gonna be good

Hubris and Prestige - The Temptation of the Path of Good (Rationalization ?) Intent

38:38 Rory is a Tiger with Teeth!!! 🐯

Alastair, like Blair, has never been able to answer the key question. What was there in 2003 that uniquely justified the invasion of Iraq? Had we taken Saddam down when he was gassing his own people, that makes sense. Had we gone into Baghdad in 1991 (would have needed a new UN Resolution), no complaints. But over a decade later there was no compelling case that Saddam was sufficient threat to justify us taking him down. And it’s not hindsight to say that because so many of us were saying it at the time.

Am I the only one who thinks Rory is pretty much spelling out he used to be S.I.S. (MI6).

Remember the fuss about those huge gun barrel sections made by a British company for Iraq? What a fuss that was! The Tel Aviv gun or whatever. Then Saddam started missiling Israel. Oh what a circus oh what a show...

Alistair cutes the UN weapons inspector as defence. The Head, Hans Blix, believes that Blair and Bush should face trial at the Hague.

I've gone back and forth one my thoughts on the Iraq war, and for a while now I've sat at not being against it. I think a problem we have is that we ultimately look at the war in retrospect and then apply the outcome to the decision making. It didn't go ideally, to be put mildly, but it did oust a genocidal, chemical weapons using warmonger, did introduce even if tenuously, plurality in Iraq.

i like alastair but i've never been able to justify britains part in the iraq war and he was a massive part of that. rory did well arguing the other point

Yes, to the extent British commitment towards allies, what does that mean as evidence based? When the short-termism of domestic politics, does not take responsibility for past expeditions or exploits but to cherry pick. There seemed no consistent logic for the second gulf war but retribution! The subsequent betrayal of the Iraqi Kurds, the humanitarian disaster that is Afghanistan, its heart braking, especially the attitude of those responsible for humanitarian relief, to the extent to contrive as illegal & victimize minorities at home. Is there a dimension of pathological denial, a narcissism associated, to demote convention?

Alastair starts to make points and then deflects away

At the end of the day, stopping a murderous dictator was enough reason to go to war (I know some people will disagree with our role as world police but I think we have a duty to protect people) So I don't understand why we had to lie about it!.

Brilliant podcast AND Rory drops the F-Bomb. One question I would have is the pair never discussed the theory that the US Govt wanted to secure and control Iraq's oil reserves for its own needs. And to establish a US friendly Govt in Iraq to this end. That the WMD, Iraq were helping the Taliban and Saddam was a despot dictator were nothing more then smokescreen reasons for the invasion? Wold love to hear Alistair's opinion on this?

‘…George Bush perhaps less so.’ Never change Rory :)

I think Rory is being particularly naive and misunderstands the context at the time.

Like having a pleasant fireside chat with Goebbels

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. While we can look back at specifics and draw conclusions that can be quite different to those drawn before, we can rarely use one specific 'fact' to prove our position. It all makes me think of Sir Humphrey going on about knowing what we know, as well as knowing some, but not all of what we don't know. I believe that time has revealed some of what 'we didn't know we didn't know', however, I would not be surprised if there was still much to be revealed. As to whether those revelations would change or reinforce the accepted views, who knows? I also believe that we need to accept that we can do the wrong thing for the right reasons as well as do the right thing for the wrong reasons. This means that simply proving or disproving a particular 'reason' is not enough. While I hope to be informed before coming to a conclusion, I always try to remain open enough to accept that it may have been based on incomplete or inaccurate information, and that it may need to be modified.

It is difficult when you are a decent person like Alastair and you realise you were so profoundly in the wrong in the past.

War is not good for business unless you're in the business of war. If you want to know why Americans wanted to go to war, just follow the money.