The rest of the video are points lifted from the Last of Us subreddit. "Joel isn't a beloved character" may be the only original thing he said in this.
It really shows how dumb internet arguments are. Like the dude used a wrong word, but all the stuff he says afterwards, depicts pretty clearly what word he *meant* to say. He meant to say „morally good“ or „hero“ and its so fucking obvious. So everybody just realizes it was a small writing mistake and moves on from such an inconsequential little error right? Nope the entire fucking comment section is only about that one incredibly irrelevant thing.
I mean titling ur opinion video calling other people dumb for having a different opinion isn’t a strong or smart argument so I’d imagine this guy’s opinion is actually quite false
@@GloomyNooby the only reason he called them dumb is because of how closed minded the game is, if ur gonna have an opinion about something than make sure you know everything that ur talking about
The problem I see is that they're bad people but the thing is the world they live in made them bad. Joel has lost a daughter and lives in a post apocalyptic world and has to do what he has to to survive. Arthur also has to, he's constantly breaking the law to survive and has police on his back end 24/7. They're not beloved characters In my opinion but the reason they aren't is justified. Their world is just awful in their vision and that what made them bad people
Yea, when i defend joel's death as a plot point in this game i usually use red dead redemption 1 & 2. The main character in BOTH those games die, and in the first game the main character gets shot 50 fucking times. But for some reason no one complains about it , yet for last of us 2 it's the only thing people seem to care about. Personally I think their deaths were warranted, and same for joel.
@@cryinmonkey2003 Arthur and John died redeeming themselves, that's where the "Redemption" part of the title comes into play. While Arthur was dying of an incurable disease, he decided to save as many lives as he could, and tried his damnedest to save John and his family. John died in a similar manner, but his redemption came in not running away. All he ever did was run, hell he ditched his son and his gang for a year for no apparent reason. But in Red Dead Redemption, even though he was forced to do it, he killed his former allies, now enemies, in doing so he redeemed himself. Joel definitely did NOT redeem himself, hell he said he'd save Ellie and kill the doctors and soldiers A SECOND TIME
Montaholic Yea that’s why the game is not called Joel dead redemption, I’m just arguing that a main character dying in a video game shouldn’t cause such an outrage. Joel fucked up BIG TIME, dude literally threw the only chance for a cure out the window because he was selfish and didn’t want to lose another “daughter” like he did with Sarah. I think he had death coming. Shit from the moment I saw the first trailer for this game I knew one of them was gonna die because of what Joel did.
@@cryinmonkey2003 Joel's death is justified in that he's done plenty of things in his past that can come back to bite him. However, it is not justified in that it was done by the daughter of a no name NPC who was retconned into being an all around great guy (who would still kill a girl without letting her know of the procedure and avoids the question of "what if it was your daughter?"). She brutally tortures Joel without hesitation or consideration about the fact that he saved her moments ago. Comparing his death to John's and Arthur's is a terrible idea because they went out with dignity. The government never gave an indication about upholding their deal with John and he gets murdered, but not before he gets a final moment with his family. It helps that his son actually avenges his father, unlike Ellie, so we at least get John's final heroic act and the catharsis of vengeance for his death. Arthur's death was inevitable, and he accepts it. He learns his lesson and reconciles with the life he's lived. He dies on his own terms, quietly. Most people knew, going in, that Joel would probably die but not in the first 2 hours by a person he just saved and a group of armed strangers he allowed himself to be surrounded by. His actions leading up to his death were out of character, John's and Arthur's weren't.
Was Arthur a good person? That's one of the reasons I love RDR2, is because even more than a year after playing through it, I can still sit back with myself and debate that just in my head.
Ok if Marcus wants to say that Joel isn’t a beloved character because he is a bad person, doesn’t that mean that Darth Vader and The Joker aren’t beloved characters either?
Bro if you actually hear his argument you would know what he meant. The point is, he is a very morally ambiguous character and not all the things he did were good. A lot of people were thinking that he is a 'beloved character' in the sense that he could do no wrong. But he did do wrong, and lots of it. So many people are super nitpicky about his exact wording that its just so ridiculous. Actually listen.
but would you be unhappy if those two died? and also no it wouldn't be fair to put those two together with joel since he is the protagonist and is more sympathizable, much like a more morally good walter white (although if you think about it he doomed the world the one time he did a bad thing but since it's just a singular action that was based on good intentions that's okay apparently in our dumb human minds)
@Donny’s NWO yeah, they kill for their own survival, but there are still morals, just that they are not respected. but joel didn't kill for his own survival rather he killed out of selfishness and compassion, and as a result he prevented the vaccine from coming out, and killed a whole lot of people that was trying to do good
@@toch0418 His point was that Joel isn't a huge beloved character in overall pop culture. He's a character a lot of people loved from a game 7 years ago and that's about it. If the new spiderman game opened with Spiderman being brutally murdered and Miles avenging him a lot more people would be outraged than for Joel because Spiderman is a beloved character by millions.
@@dustinmoore3779 Mate I like the Punisher but in stories where he dies I'm not upset for him. And frankly it's hilarious that your mind would go there since the entire point of the Punisher is that revenge and violence are a never ending cycle, biggest difference is that Frank never chooses to end it.
@@1Seanmb Yet that is his character and that is his choice, you can relate and understand the decisions he made in the bubble of his own fictional universe and reality. So of course you're upset when they die, you had 7 years to accept Joel's decision and decide "Of all the shitty things he did this ain't too bad"
I agree with a lot of the stuff in this video, except for the “beloved character” argument. Just because Joel is a person who does fucked up things doesn’t mean he isn’t a loved character. Him doing bad things makes him more realistic and interesting to the player. Respect your opinion tho
Cosmonaut commonly despises any hero or protagonist doing anything that could be seen as ‘bad’, makes you think he demands all protagonists to be like superman, inherently good, when that’s not possible because unless you take his story and copy it word for word, all characters will have different challenges and flaws, but importantly, wont be totally good, at least most characters
Definition of beloved character: A character we all love, and the main reason we play a video game. Not the definition of beloved character: A character who is pure good and eats honey.
Preach the good word. I think the video is great when it comes to editing and overall quality. I completely disagree with him on the quality of the game though. It’s a 3.5 for me.
Yeah but the point still stands. Just because people like the character doesn't mean he deserves a heroic death, in alla and all fairness as much as I also like the character Joel got what he deserved and the circumstances of his death fit the themes of both stories, Joel would've done the exact same thing if he was after revenge so it doesn't make sense why his deeds should be treated any differently. People cry all day about fan service but then claim that a character who's done truly evil things should get a better ending just because they like them.
@Charlie Don't Surf but those people also say the games theme is forgiveness so when Joel dies right after saving Abby from being eaten alive it’s called bad writing since we all know the games theme wasn’t revenge 😂
"Joel is not a beloved character, Joel is a violent anti hero." Joel is a violent anti hero, but he is also a beloved character both those things are true
Dude was an asshole from the very beginning. He straight up tells ellie that he was just like all the bandits they've been killing throughout the game. His own brother hates him and doesn't trust him when they reunte. And then in the end he lies to ellie, cause he doesn't respect her wishes and only sees her as a daughter replacement. I always hated the character when I played the game. I don't know how anyone could like this asshole character
@@surferOS101 holy shit, okay you just said some really stupid stuff. First of all, no joel does not start the game as an asshole. He starts with a loving relationship with his daughter. Secondly, he tells ellie he did similar things to the bandits, but not out of pleasure but out of survival which was also to keep tommy alive which we know becuz he literally says this to tommy. Also tommy does not hate him at all and does in fact still trust joel, their relationship is just strained becuz of the things they had to do to survive. Lastly you are somewhat correct in that joel is being selfish when it comes to ellie, but again its not like hes doing that becuz hes a psycho, he didnt even want to “replace his daughter” for like half the game, thats where like 90% of the tension between the two comes from, i can’t believe i even have to type that becuz its like almost the whole point of the game. Just because you fail to understand extremely basic elements of the game does not mean joel is an asshole, please think more critically.
@@kevinarriaza1951 all I hear is Joel fanboy who can’t think critically and gets angry very easily You pull this “survival” answer when it’s obvious that’s just an excuse And the end of the day he still acted like those bandits and he still lied to Ellie in the end proving he never really cared about her as a person but more as a daughter replacement. He’s an asshole who goes out of his way to be unnecessarily brutal to everyone. I never said he started this game as an asshole, don’t know where you got that from I understand you love the character, but it’s obvious your blinded by your fanboyism He was an asshole through and through, and he got what he deserved in the second game. Please think more critically
Man I feel bad for Marcus. He generally made a good point about Joel’s character but honestly worded it terribly. Joel is a character beloved by those close to him and fans of the series but in the world of TLOU Joel is, for the most part, a bad dude with a ton of enemies.
One of the reasons they didn't go with the "Tess Hunts Joel" plot for TLOU1 was explicitly because it undermined the world if people could go on revenge quests. This is why nobody does it, because you could turn a wrong corner and end up with a face full of spores, a stray bullet, a piece of rebar, or one of the series-defining zombies. Nobody has to worry about that anymore unless the plot contrives it. His point is bad, because it's said without a second thought that this game has definitively changed for the worse, and raises more problems as a result of the changes. Admittedly, though, it's not *his* point, since he just stole it from the Last of Us subreddit to get this video out on time.
@@crazyinsane500 Yeah, but why would you care about that if the people you are hunting took the one person you cared so deeply for before you could say goodbye to them?
@@treesap9789 You mean like Joel from the first game who's shown not five minutes after Sarah's death living under FEDRA rule, the same guys who had her killed? IE: Showing he prioritized survival over revenge. The *first* game in the first few minutes shows how people have new priorities beyond melodrama.
@@crazyinsane500 No more like when Joel tried to kill Henry out of spite for being left for dead despite being saved by him. One could say Joel wanted revenge...but nah let's ignore the angy papa with daughter issues was angy at times lol
@@justinianthe1st790 Might want to play the first game before you try to act like you have a retort. Joel didn't go out of his way to hunt Henry down, it was just convenient.
I wouldn’t say Abby’s story is about going to get medicine for the little girl, it’s about redemption and trying to do right by saving the kids. She doesn’t feel redeemed by revenge but when she finally saves Lev she feels whole again.
Yeah it’s a backdrop for the story of Abby getting closer to Lev. Kinda like how getting Ellie to the Fireflies is a backdrop of Joel getting closer to Ellie
Lol they couldn’t come up with better writing so they made up the doctor having a kid then trying to copy paste a Joel an Ellie story onto other characters let’s see how many more Joel and Ellie’s we get in part 3 if Neil can come up with another sht story
i think he means that in the context of the world of the Last of Us, Joel is hated because he took away humanity’s chance for cure, not that people don’t like Joel as a character
Bruceiah James, Yes another person who is clearly dumb and clearly doesnt understand the reason why the first game was so good. Joel and Ellie. Take away Joel, explain how the story and plot in the first game is not good without Joel. Joel is one of the many reasons why people love the Last of us.
FutureJoker2012 exactly! Just like John Marston, Arthur Morgan, and the three GTA 5 antagonists, you don’t have to be “good” to be a beloved character.
i think the story isn‘t about revenge nor is it about forgiveness. in my opinion it just raises the question of how far we are „allowed“ to go for a good cause. there are tons of stories about the revenge trope and in these stories the actions of the character are alwqys portrayed as a good thing. maybe some grey areas here and there but generally the character taking revenge is in the right and is doing the right thing. but this game reverses our perspective so we can ask ourselves: „is it okay to do something horrible out of a good intention?“ or better put „is it okay to do horrible things out of love to another person?“
the story is a woke dumpster fire of killing off the 'male lead.' there is nothing profound about it. ask neil about the meetings about "diversity". leftism is a mind virus and it infected what could have been an amazing sequel. what an absolute shitshow
Revenge is never a "good intention". I think the story is about dehumanizing others, cycle of violence (revenge) and finally forgiveness. Dehumanizing aspect is hammered home by mirroring the mindset of the "hero" (Ellie) to the mindset of the "bad guys" (Abby and her crew) and showing that both are doing basically the same thing. Why should we then consider other one as a hero and other one as a villain?
I dunno, I found it refreshing and believable that Abby's story didn't constantly mesh into Ellie's and was it's own thing. Too many stories try to have characters lives intertwining like it's fate. That Abby's journey to realize that revenge had brought her no peace and her meeting Lem was detached from Ellie hunting her down made the moments where their paths did cross again more impactful, in my opinion.
Lev helped her heal in the way revenge didn’t. And because she was healing, she spared ellie and Dina as she learned revenge is pointless. Ellie didn’t learn that and threw away relationships with the people who would help her heal. I understood why both stories were separate, but I do think alternating each of their chapters would be a better way to do it
@@arnavrajadhyax2580only problem with alternating is that you’re going to have different abilities unlocked for each character, and have to switch often would get really annoying i feel. also being with abby for an extended period of time lets you relate to her a bit better instead of just waiting to get back to ellie since you know it’s coming, making the moment they finally fight all the more engaging
"Joel isn't a beloved character. He's an antihero." Some of the best and most appreciated characters in all of media are antiheroes. What even makes an antihero exempt from being beloved in the first place?
While beloved does literally mean dearly loved, I think Marcus was meaning that people shouldn't be that upset about Joel's death. He was very well written in the first game, as a selfish, mass murdering, torturing psycho, with clearly visible goals and people enjoy his character because of such. His example of Winnie the Pooh showed beloved as 'incapable of doing wrong' meant that Joel should not be beloved. Joel has plenty of people who hate him, and I know people who actively can't get more than half way through the game because they see where it's going, and can't support his decision.
@@arutzuki2491 Jesus stop saying that like you are about to make nd go bankrupt. It's cringe and lame, especially after seeing that it's selling like crazy
Re: Abby story, I like your comment on wanting them to be more connected. I think it would have been nice, I remember feeling a bit dull during chunks of her story. The flashbacks and story with her friends I did enjoy though. A theme that stuck out to me was "your enemies are people too". Forcing me to play and Abby and experience her very human memories made me feel that and want to apply that theme to my own life. The quest she undertakes during her three days I think is a repeat of "your enimies are people too". Had that found a way to tie that more into Ellie's story like you mentioned, that could be quite the hit
“If Ellie gets attacked by dogs and nearly dies, she will kill the dog to survive!” Yeah so would I. If it’s me or the dog I choose me because i live longer than 15 years and have ambitions greater than just eating and fucking.
You paid money to play a game where you kill dogs. That makes you sound like a straight up psychopath. That is one of the major indicators of a serial killer too btw, they start out killing animals when they are younger. Why the fuck would any healthy minded person want to play something like this? It's like paying to drink poison.
D_B studios it’s HOW he was killed, most of us knew Joel would die in this game but the way they handled it was just plain disrespectful to his character while forcing us to play as his killer expecting us to feel sorry for her terrible backstory that was crafted out of thin air.
No, no, no, you are like the 16th person I've seen this fly right over their head. He meant in the universe like how Winnie the Pooh in his Universe he is beloved but in Joel's Universe he is not.
@@digittoll7591 but no the main character. I mean even the flashbacks were put because naugthy dog devs felt like cowards after realising Joel was killed at the beginning
@@digittoll7591 also means that he was a character and thre mad that he was killed off for a stupid reason that made no sense and that the main character a great person got killed for no reason and it didnt have any impact to the story exept for ruining a character that was already established
The two halves of the story tie in thematically. Yeah it would've been nice to see the two plots link up a bit more closely but I personally didn't mind it. I really liked Abby's story playing in opposition to Ellie's. Ellie does nothing but distance herself from her loved ones and go down darker paths with each choice she makes whilst Abby makes new friends and tries to make amends with old ones only to get rebuffed. I found it interesting.
Imagine this. The game starts of with you as Abby, the story is framed as a typical post apocalyptic revenge story of finding who killed her family or whatever, just some basic plot that is not uncommon to games. Joel and Ellie aren't mentioned at all. For the first section, all of the gameplay is with Abby. The Last of Us 2 is framed as a story completely different and independent from the first game, fooling the player into thinking the Last of Us is more of an anthology series on survivors in the post apocalypse rather than one whole story. You learn more about Abby, and become more attached to her character and past as well as the people she is friends with, as you have with Joel and Ellie in the previous game. You play through like 5 hours of normal exploring, piecing together clues and following a trail of this mystery man who killed your family. Then, you come across Joel all of a sudden in the wilderness, work together to survive a horde. Hopefully making you think "Pretty cool that they did a cameo for Joel from the last game" but think nothing more of it. Then he introduces himself, and the story plays out as it did in this game, with both protagonists killing beloved characters from both sides, hurting characters you've built relationships with and cared about the whole game(s). I think that framing provides a more gripping story about revenge, forgiveness and actually teaches the lesson of it clearly, seeing as you may have actually cared about the the characters before they died. And this way, you actually empathize with Abby more, rather than just hating her outright from the get-go.
Change her design up a bit to not make Abby built like a roided up barbie doll but still rough(like Tess), then boom a solid plot because the player is already aware of Joel's and eille's stories therefore understanding the tension and intensity everyone has against each other.
Yeah, honestly Abby's story should have been its own game in between part 1 and 2. Abby's game should have ended right when they first get eyes on Jackson.
Can we all agree that what Ellie said in the 1st game "Everyone I've ever cared about has either died or left me, everyone except for you" that hit HARD after this game
Ah the classic "You guys just don't get it" statement. Then never being able to explain how we don't get it. I mean "Joel isn't a beloved character", seriously??
"Joel is not a beloved character." "He's a violent antihero." So your point is that, an antihero or a villain whom you understand and connect with cannot be a beloved character just cuz? Plus almost everyone considers Joel as a villain or an antihero, not a straight up hero.
jesus christ, the main point is that Joel kinda deserved what he got in the end, he was in the wrong the whole time. Stop with these mental gymnastics to avoid the whole point.
@@yourwrongimright101_69 and I'm saying your comment is irrelevant to the whole video. Plus that's not what he meant when he said Joel wasn't a beloved character, he's just saying that Joel didn't deserve a "honorable death" like most people think. because he's not a hero and not a good man at all.
@@MrGister9999 it's not irrelevant to the video at all. That's literally what he said, word after word. Why doesn't he deserve a good death? His actions are justified. He's not a good man but he tries to be one. He's a good father and he did what most parents would do. Most people may not find it heroic but it's not villainous.
Joel’s a hero, the firefly’s plan was beyond stupid and if successful would have been some recruitment tool to strengthen there own faction. The firefly’s in the game were portrayed as pretty morally dubious and not really that trustworthy, and surprise, surprise, the want Ellie their sacrificial lamb and 86th Joel. Let em burn
@Nagger I mean I know dictatorship and all that as the reason, but I would have personally leaned into it. I mean what do you think of when you think Winnie the pooh? he's kind, he's friendly he's not the smartest character, but he does have his moments of insight. If you want people to see you as a leader they have to see you as likeable to be around and suddenly taking away Winnie the pooh isn't gonna do that.
I get exactly what you’re saying. This asshole thinks just bc Joel does some pretty bad shit doesn’t make him a beloved character. Arthur Morgan, John Marston, Carl Johnson, Niko Bellic, etc they’re not perfect but we love them and they’re our beloved characters
@@anonymous99632 My goodness. Please separate some of the large paragraphs. I thought this a copy-pasted thesis or something. Okay. I disagree with the 2nd part. I am pretty sure everyone knows WHY people are upset. I agree with the part that Druckman had no idea what to write. He said in an interview the story is structured for us to kill Abby. They changed their minds halfway. So that's why the story is... fucked...
@@anonymous99632 First of all I think everyone knew that Joel will die in the sequel. I mean Joel just killed thousands of fireflies and to not get the consequence is stupid in my opinion. However the execution was one of the worse I could ever find in a game. No foreshadowing or justice to the character. One of the weirdest thing I find is Joel believing someone when Joel himself knows what kind of world it is. I mean Joel tried to ram a man with a truck when some guy was in the middle of the road asking for help. Even tommy should know much as Joel since he is one of the character that was with joel and survived. There are many ways that abby could have caught joel by his own such as kidnapping one of the settlement people. Or ruining the power station and giving joel the warning for him to come alone. However, they should result it with pure luck of abby just somehow getting to joel and tommy by going into a snow where there are thousands of zombies and by pure luck lures joel and tommy the two guys who knew the brutality the world can bring just by trusting a stranger. Which also brings the fact that abby doesn't get no consequences whatsoever when she is going to a blizzard where thousands of zombies will try to kill you. These kind of action shows plot holes and poor writing. I would rather root for a character who thinks well and tries to overcome the challenge by choices that I could relate and understand not someone who gets everything by pure luck. Lastly the reason why your second point is people understand why ellie did not kill abby. Its just that when we are playing as ellie she goes through a lot troubles and even doing immoral acts such as killing a pregnant person which I found very annoying and depressing. I mean it also felt like a waste of time to go to the end and have one of the worst execution. We could have seen a sign of hesitation or even a sign of regret once in while but we see none and we only see the end where ellie is crying. I mean one of the worst execution we could've ever had and as you can see no foreshadowing or building up to this decision. There is a reason why it is hated and many agrees to it because me personally I felt a waste of time playing it.
"Lesbian murder hobo rampage" 😂 perfect description of Ellies arc in this game lol. Love you're review though, I adore the story in this game and I'm glad you're able to look past the flaws at the greater themes and how well they permeate into the world as you described it. I totally agree that this game is far from flawless, the pacing is all over the place and those tensionless sequences in the early game make the replayability of the game drop significantly after the 2nd play through. I always appreciate your thoughts and this was a great review.
Abby's story isn't dispensable, it shows what would've happened if Ellie had gone through with it at the end of the game. Abby gets her revenge but it leaves her hollowed out and transformed into a killing machine with nothing to show for it. The two stories form a complete circle since Abby's story essentially starts at the (alternate) end of Ellie's. The many callbacks and parallels between Abby/Lev and Joel/Ellie, both subtle and overt, serve to reinforce the idea that Ellie is setting herself out on a path to emulate Joel and thus her final decision (a "schism" ending like the first game) drives home that she's coming into herself as an adult by moving on.
You would surprised with how upset people get when they have to engage in a stealth system that isn't kinda janky. I think that shows in the lack of stealth games we have in this generation of games. I love stealth but I know a lot of people younger than me that really cannot stand it. Especially if it is done so well that it requires real effort.
@@HamJams Weird, but I guess I get what you're saying. I think what he really should of said is that he's one of the few that likes challenging stealth.
"Ellie has to learn to forgive Abby" Yeah, after killing everyone Abby knows. But y'know forgiveness takes time, only Abby can be forgiven. Not everyone else that Ellie killed along the way, they don't matter. Abby is the only one that deserves forgiveness.
Yes. They do in fact in Ellie's head over the course of the game do not matter because they were not her end goal. And I think it's safe to say that after everything, Ellie is regretful about the shit she does over the course of the game. It feels like you're being sarcastic to make a point but I can't see why.
@@ClareAmel The games message rings hollow if it doesn't even bring in the gameplay into account for story moments. How am I supposed to get the message of forgiveness if you can't even show mercy once by gameplay and have it matter. Instead you're forced to kill hundreds and I'm supposed to think that it's good writing when Abby is the only one that's forgiven and Ellie "regrets" her actions. Ps. I'm not trying to be an ass or come off that way, this game just makes me heated. Sorry if I was rude in this response.
All the context that's inconvenient to you: Abby was currently trying to get away and help Lev, not attack Ellie. Ellie's self defense (against deranged cultists who shot her immediately for no reason, slavers and child murderers) =/= premeditated waterboarding. She felt worse with every friend of Abby she killed, so that point actually proves you wrong in the eyes of anyone who knows what a character arc is. "But y'know forgiveness takes time, only Abby can be forgiven."-Huh... no? The game emphasizes her forgiving Joel a lot more than Abby? So she's not the only one, making you a liar?
One thing I didn't like was the extreme violence. I get that the point is to show how horrible all that stuff is but at some point it stops being a lesson and just becomes torture porn
Extreme violence? Why picking on this game ? Rdr2(mortal Kombat: hold my beer) has the same violence too... Plus it's written most of the times +18 on the cover or whatever, you want kitty games go play Super Mario. And did you actually compared this Piece of art to torture porn or whatever? Really? I hope they add more violence(if it's a violent game) and things become super fascinating as graphic design develops(well not more violence, more realistic... every time). It's like sayin GAME OF THRONES is a bad stupid tv show because of its violence, have you ever said that? Everyone's going CreaZy ¯\_ಠ_ಠ_/¯
@@XnonTheGodd It just becomes kinda edgy when you have tons of fun blowing people up and calling them 'fucker' before they die, and then afterward the message is "VioLEnCe BaD". I have no choice but to brutally murder people, and it's super fun too, so the message kinda gets lost. I won't feel bad just because npc #5 screams "BARRY!!", when I blow someone up. It is honestly just weird that Ellie spares Abby at the end, after she kills dozens of people to get to her.
@@atom8248 i understand, the thing is that in games with actual story, devs have to create a fun environment, for example in mass effect Andromeda you just go around killing people but the storyline is actually that Ryder is the good guy or whatever... In these games you outta close your eyes through the gameplay (the gameplay is only for the fun), and follow the cutscenes for the actual story, but even through that Ellie kills a lot of people that had little to do with Joel's death... So maybe the ending was a bit off and the massage was not as good but with a bit of change the overall Story and gameplay and graphics and... Were good!!! For whatever reason saying it was too violence (literally rdr2 n mortal Kombat: hold my beer) is as stupid as fuck
@@XnonTheGodd yeah, I think naughty dog just kinda messed up. The gameplay is fun, but a thing that they talked a lot about when the first game was coming out was ludonarrative dissonance (which is a hard word to spell) which this game has a lot of. It is a story with two characters and you change perspective with flashbacks etc. I think they could of cut a lot of the Abby parts (since they wreck the pacing) and rearranged the story a bit and it would have been waaay better. They should have made multiple endings imo, based on what you decide to do in the story.
@@atom8248 agreed, i only disagree with the last part, if we would've given a choice then it wasn't Ellie's story or journey, it was the player's, which holds you deeply responsible for choices(that you should've made during the game if choosing was an option) that you may never wanted to choose because of ambiguity in options(choices)...
@Evan Gellion When someone says something is/isn't bad, we ARE talking about their opinion. "Bad" isn't an objective word, so you must be talking about an opinion.
@Evan Gellion You went through kindergarten, right? You're aware that some statements are facts and some are opinions, right? Something can't be objectively bad. When you say something is bad, THAT'S AN OPINION. If you aren't capable of hearing someone say "X is bad" and understanding that the thing they said is an opinion, you're an idiot.
It's blatantly clear that Evan and John either had to repeat third grade or were out sick when their class was taught the difference between a fact and an opinion
19:10 "What I do care about, is how people talk about the media that they consume. Because currently the conversation about this game are really not fun to engage with. And I'd like for that to change" Says the guy who titled his video "You Guys Are Just Dumb"... Dude, I agree with a lot of your points in this video, but this final "preaching peace" at the end is so disingenuous...
I really loved the flashbacks and Abby's story a lot because it just fleshed out the world. I never at any point thought "why doesn't Ellie know about the cult" because it didn't have anything to do with her, it was fleshing out Abby's character and showing the war that her faction was experiencing.
@@samuelolivier3792 He explained that Joel murders people just because he wants to like he's some kind of serial killer. It seems quite likely Cosmo used the words he wanted to use.
I scrolled down here to see the response to the title. Because goddamm that title is going to start a flame war. I don't even care about this game I just wanna see the flame war.
Also I have no problem with Joel dying. It's how they killed him and then present Abby as a nice person. When she literally tortured Joel. She isn't a good person.
@@king24lakerskobe theres no such thing as a good reason for killing someone. Everyone in the tlou universe is selfish. Its a kill or be killed situation.
Your point that people shouldn’t be mad that a character dies because they were a bad person doesn’t make much sense, then how you explain why people like characters such as Arthur Morgan Guts Walter white Deadpool Vaas Darth Vader Bill cypher Eren jaeger And many many more
@@krasmasov6852 Would’ve been more in character if they tricked Ellie or snuck up on them instead of Joel blindly trusting them. Nothing wrong with Joel getting brutally killed in an act of vengeance, but when it’s done in a way that doesn’t fit his characterization then it’s bad writing.
“Joel saves Ellie because he does not want to lose another daughter” yeah and that character flaw is why people have him as a beloved character Lemme clarify that I’m not upset that Joel even dies in the game but about how this story as a whole was delivered
I didn’t understand the purpose of Abby’s section of the story at first either, but then I took the time to think and look back on it after finishing the game. As you said, the game’s focus isn’t completely about revenge, but forgiveness as well. Now, when we start playing as Abby for the first time, we’re on a revenge quest with her. She actually brings her revenge to fruition, which is the whole reason that Ellie’s journey begins in the first place. Abby’s story is about the aftermath of revenge and the damages it causes. Her relationships became complicated, the nightmares didn’t stop. She’s stuck in the same spot she was before. Killing Joel didn’t fix anything. Her life just became a bit worse But when we encounter Lev and Yara, things begin to change. Abby’s way of healing wasn’t revenge, but through an act of kindness. After spending years as a remorseless scar killer, she finds solace in helping others. Its why she goes back for them, because she couldn’t forgive herself if she did. Abby’s learning to forgive herself and heal as a person, juxtaposed to Ellie who is doing the complete opposite. I get that its still hard to come around by, considering Abby is a character we have no prior connection to, like Joel and Ellie. But I don’t think it was a waste of time. Abby’s story might not change the narrative, but helps flesh out Abby’s character and what the message is driving towards
agreed, Abby is getting over it in the theatre, and looks at least somewhat happy after she left Seattle. Ellie is fucking miserable all the time bc she can't move on
I think what makes Joel distinct from being just any old anti-hero or evil protagonist is that we, as the player, walked with him throughout his entire ordeal with the outbreak and have developed a level of understanding for his motives. His whole character arc revolves around a father and his grief over the death of his only child. Of course that’s going to weigh heavily on his mind and view the world in a more pessimistic light. imho, Many criminals today pursue the life of crime because they feel the big bad world has left them with a chip on their shoulder. Yes, they steal for money and they murder because they have a score to settle with a rival gang, but they feel the world screwed them over just as Joel feels “the world” (through the cop’s actions) heartlessly murdered his daughter in cold blood. He IS the villain to society that interfered with the doctors’ attempts to find a cure for everyone, but his motivations aren’t evil. He’s still the hero in his story, because he’s trying to save the life of his daughter-figure at the expense of benefiting the dark, cruel world that took his daughter’s life.
This whole video was pretentious as fuck. What is up with people thinking it's deep and nuanced to sum up Joel's whole character arc with "he was a shitty person". This shows neither depth nor critical thinking on their part. TLOU ended with the moral ambiguity of Joel's decision to save Ellie's life, it's not as simple as people are making it out to be.
yesididitverywell People are still hating on this game for surface stuff. His video may be extreme, but the point still stands. Joel is not some hero who deserves a heroic death. He is a human being who can die normally, and even brutally, like every person in this world. At the end of the day, there are people idolizing Joel and there are people thinking that Joel is a heinous villain. Both of them are wrong.
@@aashrithmadagiri6711 Naughty Dog left the ending open for interpretation. Joel was just a blue collar guy struggling to make ends meet. He went through every parent's worst nightmare, which left him broken, but still a survivor. Society took extreme measures to try and neutralize infection spread, even if it meant killing innocent men, women and children (like Sarah). The Fireflies were no different because they also adopted a whatever-it-takes strategy to fight the pandemic. Kill a child? Sure. Marlene never informed Ellie that the operation would be fatal and Ellie was never given the chance to decide. Joel was confronted with the same situation as Sarah, but now with Ellie. Few fathers would willingly give up their child... even for the greater good. Sorry, Joel was right when saying, "Find another way." Even Tommy empathized and agreed that he would've done the same, like most of us. I sure wouldn't want to lose a child - even under those extreme circumstances. This game was all about survival - taking care of you and your own. Find another way. In philosophy, there's the classic question of whether it's moral to take one innocent life for the greater good of society. If you support the non-consent murder of Ellie, then, similarly, you also support eugenics, experimentation on prisoners, capital punishment, genocide and any number of atrocities that benefit the 'greater good'. It's a slippery slope. I know you probably don't believe those things, but you understand the dilemma and ripple effect. The Fireflies found other immune people, experimented on them, killed them and still had no cure. Sure, society would love to kill Ellie and harvest her brain. But it doesn't make it morally right. Marlene promised Ellie's mother that she'd look after her daughter. She dropped the ball. Someone else picked it up and moved with hell and fury. Joel wasn't a hero and he wasn't a villain either. Joel didn't deserve to die a hero wearing cool shades with a rising fireball behind him. And he didn't deserve this. He deserved better. *Halley Gross:* The thing that Neil and the studio really cared about is _honoring Ellie and Joel_ specifically, and their journey as characters. That's not exactly what happened, now is it? Naughty dog has a different definition of 'honor', especially when a character, who looks like Druckmann, spits on the corpse of this beloved franchise. LoU2 was revealed during PlayStation Experience 2016. If people knew that Joel would be _unplayable_ and killed _early, without a fight_ like a _dog_ by a _random_ revenge character related to a _run-of-the-mill_ NPC, then people would be absolutely livid. Many fans aren't excited to pal around with Dina, let alone play as Abby to hunt and assault Ellie because she's now the 'bad guy'. Naughty Dog subverted expectations like an earthquake and fractured the fanbase. Druckmann openly (and nervously) admitted that this story was going to be very divisive. Suicide mission accomplished.
I and many others were confused by the ending because, after all the hundreds of people that ellie had killed without hesitation, she decided not to kill abby. This is an inconsistent choice and is completely detached from what we saw in gameplay, as well as making all of those people's deaths for nothing.
First of all, you cannot compare movies and videogames, the other is interactive whilst the other is not. Choice is always appraised if done well and there is none in TLOU2.
Wrong. He left her with a life worth living, worth fighting for. She forgives him and she forgives herself before laying him and her grief to rest, and then goes to Jackson to see if Dina could try to forgive her.
I don’t think that people are mad that Joel dies, i think people are mad about how he died Also I think people dislike the ending because the person who stops their revenge is left with nothing and the person who does get revenge hasn’t really lost anything, or at least not as much as Ellie
He also went into why it makes sense how he dies. Joel doomed all of humanity and killed a shit ton of good people. So it makes sense for him to die just how he killed others. Unceremoniously.
This is honestly just a bad review with a painfully smug tone. If you can’t understand how other players feel towards a game, that doesn’t mean their feelings are wrongs. Plus Ellie forgiving Abby doesn’t work thematically because the game decides to force you to kill dozens of people to get to her and that negates the impact of what the writers are going for.
To be fair, Cosmo has a bad habit of just plagiarizing entire paragraphs from subreddits. The fucker's gonna get his comeuppance one day, exposed as a Filip Miucin-esque plagiarist, and it'll be glorious. And nobody'd have cottoned on if he didn't have such a shit take for this.
"Joel isn't a beloved character, he is a violent anti-hero" The most famous violent anti-hero (Deadpool) is one of the most beloved characters of all times, I fail to see the conection between those points.
Except Deadpool’s universe is supposed to be funny and super hero-ish while the last of us’ world is grounded in reality. Your scope of judgement should be changed based on the IP you’re examining.
@@aashrithmadagiri6711 Joel isn't even an anti-hero, he's a hero depending on your own morality. MANY people would do the exact same thing that he did.
@@aashrithmadagiri6711 I don't see how someone with a skewed morality is automatically deemed not able to a beloved character. Walter White is a straight up villain at the end of the show and he's one of the most beloved TV characters ever.
Exactly! I always thought the message of TLOU initially was that humanity didn’t deserve the cure. That the way humanity responded to the pandemic with the birth of groups like the fireflies showed that even if they had a cure, it wasn’t guaranteed that things would improve (it was even implied initially that the cure might not actually be developed successfully even with Ellie’s sacrifice.
People conveniently forget this fact when shitting on Joel. Joel is 150% correct. If I was in his position? I'd have done the same thing. People also forget that Joel goes into the room to get Ellie and the Dr pulls his scalpel on him saying he won't let him take her.
@@ya_boi_gabe9984 They retconned her to be furious with Joel and retconned the procedure into being a 100% chance of success so that they could make him an objectively evil villain who deserves to die slowly, when the act was depicted as morally gray in the first game.
Either way a cure or a vaccine for a fungal infection is impossible . Ellie just got lucky that the cordyceps mutated making her immune so yeah Joel did the right thin anyway
Joel isn’t a good person but we still sided with him and hated Abby. Because in a world like TLOU, for almost everyone, it was no longer about what’s right or wrong-It’s about who you’re with. And we were with Joel. That’s why no matter how real and justified Abby’s revenge was, we still wanted her dead because Joel was “family”. In the end, Ellie proves that it ISN’T just about who you’re with, and that right CAN still exist in the world of TLOU. Abby also proves this when she’s given a second chance at a different path with Lev. The same chance Joel got when he met Ellie all those years ago.
This game cemented my belief that way too many people have the media literacy of a child. You have to forcefeed them a story and even then they still don't understand it.
Exactly. Half of the hatebase says shit like "revenge bad' is such an obvious thing and the pretentious writers think they were profound for making it the theme of the story" and the other half of the hatebase thinks "actually, revenge good and the game sucks because I didn't get to kill Abby at the end >:("
this game is too obviously trying to make you like Abby and then refuses to explore her as a character. It's all surface level and you invent deeper meanings and act like people are dumb for not getting it
Anakin Skywalker is a beloved character. That doesn't make him a GOOD PERSON. (If you watched Clone Wars you know what I mean if you haven't don't fucking comment under this thread "he isn't a beloved character".) Joel is a beloved character. That doesn't make him a GOOD PERSON. Deadpool is a beloved character. That doesn't make him a GOOD PERSON. Maleficent is a beloved character. That doesn't make her a GOOD PERSON. Azula is a beloved character. That doesn't make her a GOOD PERSON. Severus Snape is a beloved character. That doesn't make him a GOOD PERSON. Shadow the Hedgeog is a beloved character. That doesn't make him a GOOD PERSON. I could really go on and on with this list but I'll stop here lol. Characters are beloved for a myriad of reasons but just because they are loved by the fandom, doesn't always mean THEY'RE GOOD. As in morally. ffs Winnie the Pooh is a BELOVED character for being cute, simple and child friendly. Joel is a beloved character BECAUSE OF HIS COMPLEX PERSONALITY. It's just like any other anti-hero. We love these types of characters BECAUSE they're so complex.
We all knew Joel was going to die. We all knew what he did was wrong. How he died I don't agree with that. Yes I understand wanting revenge. But murder is ALWAYS WORSE no matter the justification for it. This is why I hate revenge stories.
The last of us 1 made us live through Joel and we see him lose a daughter...like how are you gonna say he isn’t someone beloved by some. he WAS OUR MAIN CHARACTER for the last game!!
@@bashirsheikh7322 Not only that, he's interesting to watch. We've grown to like him despite his morality. Same goes for characters like Walter White. He's not a good person, but I love him as a character.
yeh but as the audience, you wernt forced to see goku get tortured by a golf club and get killed off early just to give gohan a narrative for hate and revenge. You also werent forced for 10 hours straight to watch frieza leading up to that point.
Well, I don't love him just like I don't love Cersei or Darth Vader. I love to hate them, is defferent. I love Joel, but I am not blind to the point I don't see that he makes bad choices.
@@matthewbouton5121 I'm drawing a parallel between Frieza and Joel though, not Abby. I like Joel, as a character, despite of what he did. Which doesn't mean I think he's a good person.
Now that I think about it, it would have been really cool if it did a metal gear solid 2 bait and switch where they withheld that the characters from the 1st game were in the 2nd one so you would play as Abby at the beginning until the point where kill Joel and then the story continues as normal
Seriously this whole killing hundreds of people just to get to one person and ultimately spare them to apparently “break the cycle of revenge” is so dumb like just imagine how many revenge cycles you’ve created by killing hundreds of people just because you’ve spared the person you were originally going to take revenge against doesn’t mean you’ve ended the cycle because those hundreds of people who you’ve killed to get to the the person you wanted to take revenge against could have had families and friends who may want to take vengeance for their loss honestly if you’re going to take several lives that are unrelated to your vengeance you may as well take your revenge because it’s to goddam late to end the cycle
Kg the almighty Yeah you’re right. And the game constantly shaming Ellie for when she resorts to violence is also stupid since most of the time she’s acting in self defense. When she kills Abby’s cohorts that’s usually after they try to murder her. This is made worse due to how the game let Abby get her revenge rather easily and her actions aren’t equally put under scrutiny despite how vicious and sadistically she murdered Joel even after he saved her life.
Ikr imagine if captain price and soap decided not to kill shepherd in the end of mw2. Same thing except Ellie should personally hate abby more than price/soap hate shepherd.
It’s even more likely that someone will come after Ellie, after how Abby’s friends and family she was getting vengeance on Joel over were also Nameless and Faceless characters from the first game.
Oh what you mean like exactly what they do in the first game? Kill a shit ton of random people, to make a cure to save the world only for Joel to change his mind at the end? By your logic, the first game should be trash too.
Cosmonaut: “Joel is a violent anti hero, how can he possibly be a beloved character to people?” Me: *Thinks of Wolverine,Deadpool, Punisher, Ghost Rider, Vegeta, Alucard, and Light Yagmi* Yup, violent anti-heroes are definitely not beloved characters My second disagreement is majority of people are mad at *HOW* Joel died, not that he died(most people know this due to spoilers). Joel, the badass who NEVER trusted any stranger from the start and would rather stay clear from them(Ex: The family in the prologue and Henry & Sam from TLOU). This same character...walked into a room...full of armed strangers...stated his name (after the shit he has done)...and proceeded to say the most out of character dialogue I’ve ever heard, before being shot and eventually killed by the person he went out of his way to SAVE. You can’t tell me that isn’t bad writing, nor disrespectful to the character and fanbase that loved that character. And that’s only the tip of the iceberg of reasons(I will NEVER comprehend how Tommy didn’t see Abby taking aim) My third disagreement is that Neil called this a revenge story. Ellie killed many, MANY people to get said revenge, gave up friends and family, only to decide to not kill her. She essentially sacrificed everything for absolutely nothing. Nobody in their mind, in her shoes, would sacrifice everything only to decide to not do it(while killing her) and if you would, you’re kinda stupid for even starting the journey and killing all those people to begin with. In my eyes, Ellie basically wasted her time when she should have sat down, thought it through, and then maybe she wouldn’t be so miserable as she is now. Edit: Also you can’t really call it breaking the cycle, because she killed people to get to Abby, who is to say their family/friends won’t want revenge? She probably started multiple new cycles Overall though, I agree with majority of what you said and I really hope people listen to the points you make and not just read the title, dislike, and move on
Choosing not to kill Abby is not a waste of her effort or her sacrifice. She did terrible things and lost everything in the pursuit of revenge just like Abby, only she realized that she could end the cycle. The point about Joel is a good one, only the story implies that because of the horde, Joel really has no choice but to go back with Abby and hope that they are friends. This is why Tommy offers to restock their supplies and they offer up their names so freely, because they know its either make friends, or die to infected.
Anakin Cary I agree with the Abby part kinda, just wish she didn’t go THAT far with her journey and make such an unrealistic decision while fighting her. If she thought about her talk with Joel while killing one of Abby’s friends, then I would 100% agree with her decision Somewhat disagree with the Joel part. Say you’re the man who just stopped humanity from gaining the cure and murdered countless amount of people, you already don’t trust strangers before the apocalypse, now you’re in a room full of armed people that you have no idea what the relation these people have to what you’ve done. Joel is an extremely cautious individual, I just can’t see him of all characters making the decision in telling his real name. You can be friendly without giving up your identity, you see it a lot in apocalypse like games with characters lying about their name for safety
Honestly I loved the game overall. I hated the ending and some of the story beats. But also the other things people hate about this game I honestly don't hate about this game. I loved the characters (yes Abby too. She was actually my favorite), I loved the gameplay, and I loved the story.for the first two acts. Hate comments come at me.
A beloved character does not have to be a good person, just a character that's beloved...by fans. Doesn't matter if Joel killed tens of hundreds of people, or that he's hated by other characters in the game. As long as he is loved by fans, he is a beloved character.
i don't think he meant people don't like him but that he _shouldn't_ be liked like that? also, the second part "you can't kill a beloved character" was part of the reason he brought that up. that if you kill a fan favorite, even if it was done well, people aren't gonna like it.
Your take on the story, where it is laid out with alternating between the protagonist/antagonist would make for an incredible game. I sincerely hope you get to write a videogame story some day.
I have to say I personally like the safe mechanic mainly because I liked exploring every nook and cranny of the levels so I would always find everything anyway but then again I like collecting everything in games like Assassins Creed, inFAMOUS, and Ghost of Tsushima.
Yeah I agree with a lot of his video, but saying Joel isn’t a beloved character is CRAZY. Now is he “hero”, that can be debatable, the moral ambiguity is what makes the story that much more interesting imo
Ichigo Kurusaki Yes he did . He states that in the first 2 minutes of the video and gives the gameplay 6/10 and the story 10/10 . You can constructively criticize the video and express your issues with it , but please stop words in other people’s mouths .
So hear me out. I’ve been thinking a lot by the “Joel letting his guard down” thing. We clearly see Abby getting revenge did something to her: she went completely overboard to save the Seraphites she used to hate and even more overboard to get the medicine the girl needed. So imagine how doing what he did must have taken a tool on Joel, evey life he sees taken by the infected is on his hands, for years and years. I’m not saying its justified being more trusting in other people but it definitively it would change the way he handles them.
I think every single one of those people is inventing a vague reason to mask just being mad that Joel died. Do we *really* think any version of a person traumatically hurt by his actions finding him and killing him would satisfy these people?
OriginOfSleeperguy it would of had a lot of impact if we didn’t have to stop on a ellie cliffhanger and play abbys backstory that no one gives two shits about. I love ellie’s part but come on you can’t defend abbys shit gameplay
As one great channel said, the whole Abby story is like the South Park episode where they discover Towelie, who constantly talks about how it is a totally confidential super experiment and the characters repeat over and over again that they don't care and that they just want her game console
Saying Joel isn’t a ‘beloved’ character based on the fact that he’s done ‘bad things’ in a post-apocalyptic world is as DUMB as saying Rick Grimes isn’t a ‘beloved’ character in The Walking Dead.
He is not beloved, it's like Walter White in breaking bad. He is not a beloved character. He is an inciting, intriguing and interesting character. That does NOT mean he is a beloved character. A lot of people did not like Joel, as they didn't like Walter White. That didn't make the show / games any less good.
@@josiahfour25 true but I still feel joel is a beloved character as they set him up to immediately being a character to sympathise with the death of his daughter
Josiah David Well you’re definitely not speaking for the majority with that opinion. There’s a reason why everyone is so overwhelmingly pissed off with what was done with Joel and it’s not because he’s ‘interesting’.
Genuinely one of the dumbest takes of this controversy that has ever occurred. But thanks for putting your thoughts out there as I needed to show my friend who just completed the game, as she genuinely believed that no one could defend this game because they would have to be, in her words, "...surgically braindead to do so."
Majority of the backlash isn’t stupid. There are very real and valid critiques about the ludonarrative flaws and the way the game clumsily handles delivering its message of revenge and forgiveness. Why present a game without meaningful choice and then make the player feel horrible for doing what the character does as if the player had an agency over it? Not to mention the way the game has you violently killing hordes of people, gives you the option to ‘spare’ enemies only for them to retaliate, chooses to withhold key character motivations to emotionally manipulate you into believing either character’s revenge plight is in any way justified.
I mean, I do agree that their are some people who didn’t really “get” what this game was about, but saying that Joel is not a beloved character because he’s not nice is kinda dumb. Not gonna lie.
After watching I think he did take it like; "Joel was considered a good character". I think you can like a bad character and acknowledge their flaws. But that should come with the consequences of that character's actions.
I think you're wrong on the Joel argument, Joel is in our standards, a horrible person, a murdering, torturing, violent person but Naughty Dog made us love him besides his flaws.
3 years later and this video is still is kind of shitty. “JoEL iS NOt A beLovEd ChaRacteR, joEl Is a VIOleNt AnTI-herO,” my dude, I think you’re confusing “beloved”with “morally right.” If that’s the case, then why are Darth Vader, Gollum, the T-800, Walter White, Dirty Harry, and the Joker beloved characters? Another thing I wanted to bring up, games and movies are completely different mediums. Maybe this is just my own perspective on games, but games are meant to be fun. That’s a big problem with a lot of new games that get released nowadays: They are these boring life-simulators that put story over gameplay or just having fun. TLOU2 is a prime example of this. A story of forgiveness would work in a movie, but not a video game like this. Can you imagine if in GOW3 if Kratos got to Zeus after killing every Greek god, and he just forgave him. That’s really stupid. That applies here. I’m not saying games shouldn’t have dark stories, but with a story and outcome as miserable as this, it kind of defeats the entire point of being a video game. Also, 16:36 curve your straw man.
You know, you say it can't work in a videogame and bring up God of War, but that's pretty much the crux of a lot of the plot of God of War Ragnarok. You have so many characters being mature and acknowledging "Yeah, you killed my family member. After he tried killing a literal child. You're justified, but you know where I'm coming from, right?" TLOU2 *could* have told a story about forgiveness and have that be informed by the mechanics, but it was written by a failed comic author, not a game designer.
@@crazyinsane500 I didn’t say that it couldn’t work at all in a video game, I was just addressing that in this game it doesn’t work. Mainly due to how awful the story is structured, and how Abbey is introduced as a detestable character that we are supposed to sympathize with. If that’s the case, then Neil failed. That’s why I drew the comparison between this game and GOW3. My whole point was a rebuttal of the comparison Marcus made to No Country for Old Men.
Arguing Joel isn't beloved because he's a morally dubious character is like saying John Marston and Arthur Morgan in the Red Dead series aren't beloved characters because they're criminals. Edit: Someone in this comment thread pointed out Lee from TWD and I think it is a perfect inclusion to my analogy Edit 2: Just so I don't have to keep repeating myself in the replies, I am of the opinion Joel should die in this game as he does. BUT, and this is a very big but, it should have been done far better and have a far greater meaning than what it did. No, he shouldn't be able to get away with what he did to the fireflies, yes Abby had all the right reasons to kill him, yes the revenge plot beeing about his death instead of dina's as the trailers indicated was a good bait and switch ,although the trailers actively lied about how much joel was in the game and that is inexcusable, you should have been able to spend more time exploring the fallout of his and Ellie's relationship and just as things are looking better, BAM, Joel dies a far more meaningful death as he sacrifices himself for Ellie in a final display of love, or something like that, something that goes along with his character progression from the first game. This is why I think recognising him as a beloved character by the vast majority of gamers is so important, cause if he wasn't, we wouldn't have cared, if he wasn't there wouldn't be a discussion in the first place. This is a good game, has good gameplay, and the storytelling is bold, HOWEVER, is it a good TLOU sequel? In my opinion no, it commits character assassination to get characters to where the plot needs them to be and the Abby plot was done far too late to the point where it felt like they were force feeding it to me cause they needed me to care about her, otherwise the afore mentioned bold storytelling would flop. At that point I did not care for Abby nor wanted to play as her even though she was a decent character (Imagine the first game showed you the Sara plot at the end of the game instead of at the beginning, same concept here). Had this game not been a TLOU sequel or had it not commited character assassination to the point it did and had treated the beloved characters with more respect (as Neil said they would in early interviews, CAUSE HE KNEW HOW MUCH WE LOVED THEM) I would have enjoyed it far more. You may love it, you may hate it, all valid points, at the end of the day for me the subversion of my expectations failed and I felt like they just intentionally disappointed me for the sake of beeing bold.
I mean Joel is a beloved character in the fact that we love him. Just because he is violent to protect what he has left doesn't mean he isn't a beloved character to us. We were playing him basically we were him. When people said beloved character we mean we like him we never said he was link from legend of Zelda.
Exactly right. You dont have to be a good guy to be a beloved character. Examples: - The Joker in the Arkham games is a beloved character - Vaas in Farcry 3 is a beloved character - Kratos in all God of War games is an anti hero and is one of the most beloved in the playstation community
@@getoffmyacc9416 wrong Joel didn't kill just because you should know that. Joel kills for either. 1. Self Defense since the military was killing fireflies and was ready to kill others too. And the hunters that ambushed him and ellie. Or 2. Joel kills to protect ellie. Like the fireflies operating for the vaccine which would kill ellie not to mention that ellie was unconscious when they found them. So the fireflies were about to kill ellie technically without her consent. Also the comparison isn't bad because he is saying you don't need to be a goody toe shoes to be a beloved character
@@DBZFANX1000 but joel isn't forced to kill. He could have went on about his life not killing anyone. He also doomed the world by saying Ellie. Ellie was ok with dying. She made peace with the fact that he death could save the world.
The whole time Ellie goes though the game not caring about what she doing but when come down to the moment she can kill abby she doesn’t that where the game draw the line for me. Ellie had no reason to spare abby considering all that she when through
I think you’re missing the point, she just didn’t need to. Abby spared Ellie two times because she understood her. Ellie and Abby are the same, victims to a cycle of violence started by Joel. Ellie saw the moment that her and Joel had forgiveness and realised that there was no reason to kill Abby, all that would do is continue the cycle when she could end it. Ellie had the moment to choose not to do it and she took it to move on guilt free.
@@pandaboi7832 only problem is this falls apart when you think about all the NPCs Ellie and Abby killed. Anyone of those NPCs could have a loved one or daughter who now wants revenge on Abby or Ellie, so the cycle isn’t really broken at all. Hell Abby is the daughter of an NPC from the first game.
