Patreon: / overview Twitter: / movieflameprod Personal Instagram: / morgan_ross18 Facebook: / movieflame NEW BOOK INFO: Video 1: • NEW HUNGER GAMES BOOK ... Video 2: • NEW HUNGER GAMES NOVEL... Video 3: • PRESIDENT SNOW PREQUEL...
People didn't notice that Haymitch only voted yes to another Hunger Games when he looked at Katniss and knew she was planning something by voting yes cause he knew she would never agree to another Hunger Games and neither would he. It showed how much he trusted Katniss.
I remember what The Red Queen in Queen of the Tearling once thought (I know, maybe I'm sexist or bad for thinking of stereotypes)This was why she wanted male pages, mem came at you with their fists. Women talked behind your back and a facade.
He respected her from the start despite her ignorance, because no matter how she tried she could not make herself totally ignorant. She could not hide her will to protect, to fight, and her ability to see through bullshit.
Tiger PinkLily Men usually use brutal force (physically strength ) because that's their main source of power ( or at least that's what they are thought ) , women ( not all of them) don't posses that physical strength so they rely more on mental and emotional manipulation as their main strategy of attack. ( no hate on women). We are thought to use what we have and if we ( women) don’t have show stopping physical strength we have to find another way of fighting in order to win a battle. 🤷🏻♀️
I know how weird this will sound but Coin's most fatal flaw in her plan was that she never came to the realisation that despite being enemies Snow and Katniss trust each other.
@Malik Abdullah I think the OC is referring to the fact that Snow and Katniss have a history of telling the truth to each other, so trust still applies to some degree. They don't trust each other in the sense of having a reciprocal, vulnerable relationship, but they do trust that any information communicated between them will be accurate.
@Malik Abdullah trust is when you when you believe that someone will follow through on what they’ve said or on previous action so OPs use of trust is not incorrect though it is not often used in this manor which makes it seem strange
Katniss voted yes in the vote for another hunger games so she could gain the trust of coin. Getting that trust gained her access to having a weapon near coin and be able to kill her. It took me years to figure that out, I was so shocked that she voted to have another games with capital children.
The idea of coins corruption when I first got into hunger games went over my head until the proposed hunger games and snows conversation explaining her framing him and he wouldn’t be “wasteful” about to lose the war and bombing his capital’s own children.
Snow doesn’t hide behind a mask. He knows he’s evil, everyone does. He respects Katniss for her wits and skill, and knows when he is beaten. Coin is fake, condescending and honestly just cold. Coin, in my opinion, is slightly worse
Snow does not have to lie, because he is at the top of their society, nothing he does will affect him, it is not the same for Coin. But Snow does obscure the truth and cheat (like rigging the 75th hunger game just to kill Katniss), and he is a terrorist (the hunger games are a act of terror) and a mass murderer. They are both horrible people and Snow never used his immense influence to change things for the better
Not at all lol, Snow (along with presumably the previous president(s) of Panem) manipulated the districts and brainwashed the capital into believing that the Hunger Games (killing of children every single year) was sacrifice and was needed to let society live on. He killed everyone's families (Haymitch for example), committed genocide on District 12 and 13, blockaded District 13 for 75 years (or at least continued this blockade) severely starving generations of District 13, plus the attack on the hospital in district 8. He doesn't tell the capitol citizens any of this (selective propaganda instead) making him equally as fake if not more since he lies to so many other people and for much longer. They both lie to their own people
When I read Mockingjay, halfway through I started to realize that Coin wasn't any better than Snow. Her suggestion of a revenge Hunger Games proves that.
Not only her proposal of a revenge Hunger Games, but framing the choice she forced the surviving Victors to make in such a way that whether they voted for the Hunger Games or her alternate proposal, they'd appear bloodthirsty in the eyes of the population. Snow was evil, but I agree that Coin was even worse.
@@kamronramelmeier9264 I agree, but I don't exactly like bringing real life politics into fictional works. Yes, there's a certain parallel , but I've seen so many fans fighting over the real life stuff. For me, it creates unnecessary conflict among fans. Just my opinion of course.
My favorite quote from the book was, when Katniss was asked to vote for another hunger games, she thinks to herself something like "all those people I loved and cared about. They are all dead. And we are discussing another hunger games? Nothing has changed, nothing ever will".
yup, and also Katniss killing Coin is the first action she does massively influencing the Hunger Game's world with her own agency, freedom, not a pawn or piece being used in anyone else's chess game, it makes it a very. beautiful poetic ending
Yeah the movie handles this really well ...she votes yes for the new Panem Hunger Games when the audience knows that every fibre of her being is against it. She uses her vote to manipulate ( turn the tables on) Coin into appointing her as executioner to set up the final scene ...clever too the way that Haymitch, who is also against the new Hunger Games, plays along cos he senses Katniss has an ulterior motive/plan that he wants to see play out.
@@benfehily3060 That makes so much more sense now. I was having trouble getting at why she voted yes because there was no way she would want more innocent children like her sister and Rue to suffer. It seemed so out of nowhere. Now it makes sense.
I think both are horrible. Snow killed children but so did coin in the end. Katniss did the right thing by killing coin. Snow was dying anyway slowly which was ok with me lol.
@@flamingpi2245 the blood that kept coming out of his mouth wasn't from tuberculosis. It was because he would poison anyone that was a threat to him. He would drink the poison as well so it would deter people from any accusations against him. He then would drink a syerum to counteract the poison. However, he did suffer physical effects from it. He had open sores and leisons in his mouth and throat which would hence cause the bleeding that came out of his mouth
Rebels can be just as bad if not worse than the governments they tear down the Bolshevik revolutionaries murdered the Romanov family and destroyed Russia
it's always easy to destroy something than to build something good. The French Revolution(s) deposed unpopular rulers but created monsters like the Directory, Napoleon and the current French governments who are racist, resistant to diversity and ignorant of entire communities. D13 was always going to be a force for chaos as it is a military society with no purpose other than to attack the Capitol. That's why there was a deal to be separate from the Capitol and the districts- 13 would just disrupt any order established by the Capitol.The ANC, former rebels who are now ruling South Africa count every president since Mandela as their members. Apart from Mandela himself, SA has been ruled by this elite clique as a fiefdom for over 25 years with no chance of anyone outside the clique getting in.
I _always_ found it extremely interesting that President Snow was never fake with Katniss & also _never lied to her._ President Snow was evil, but I kind of admired him in a bizarre way because he was never fake about it, or tried to hide it or lie about it. He never acted like he was the good guy when he was actually the bad guy. He was one of the realest characters in the series, & *THAT* is what I admired about him. *President Coin was worse.*
I still just find it so poetic and incredible that the villain who we’ve spent the past 3 books learning to hate, actually turned out to be the one Katniss needed to listen to
It is usually respectable when someone does not pretend to be something they are not even if what they really are is a monster. Especially when they are next to someone who puts on an act.
Katniss & Snow are both pragmatic. They do what is most efficient for them. Regarding their conversation at the end, Snow saying he’s doesn’t kill without reason & is not wasteful. Meanwhile it’s obvious to Katniss that he’s dying & does not have much time left anyway. Her killing Snow, while just, would not be completely logical. To kill someone who’s already at deaths door. Coin was still a threat.
Admitting that you’re bad doesn’t make you any less horrible. This mindset is so weird. He did everything Coin did AND forced teens into prostitution. Him not lying is irrelevant.
I was very upset about Prim's death. I actually agree with Snow on the part where he said it was a wasteful sacrifice. The fact that Coin would send Prim to her death was unforgivable. Not to mention use Gale's weapon to do it. If only she didn't do it. Prim would be alive and Katniss' and Gale's friendship wouldn't have ended on such a horrible term
@@superslytherin8525 I know their bond was gonna end no matter what, but if Coin hadn't did what she did it would've been on a less tragic circumstance.
@@Night-Shade.he was toxic . He never wanted her he only wanted her because he didn’t like the idea of anyone else having her . And he only did all that extra shit at the end because he was competing w/ Katniss and Peeta
I've just realized that Snow telling Katniss the truth about how Coin was responsible for Prim's death actually saved Panem from another era of oppressive tyranny ( just look at the irony). However, Coin's regime would be much worse than that of Snow's . So if Katniss killed Snow instead of Coin after so many hints of how ruthless she is, then Katniss would've been indirectly responsible for the new opressive regime far worse than the old one
"Far worse"? I don't think that is possible... It would have been the same though, another government that projected "us vs them" and was willing to kill children.
@@kathrinlindern2697 there was a reason snow so long reigned, in fact his increasingly brutal methodes became his downfall. coin who would brutally get rid her oppositions from get go will drown panem in another civil war.
*i feel like snow was like “well, if i’m going to die because they want a peaceful country, might as well get rid of the other people who are going to stand in the way of the peace”*
Watching the movie and reading the book gives a pretty good explanation of why he exposes Coin. In the movie, Snow tells Katniss "make no mistake, she intends to take my place." However, Snow has spent literally his entire life holding on to power, he has no intentions of letting someone else take his place. He owns his villainy and doesn't want someone like Coin to take that from him. Once Snow dies, his legacy dies with him.
Kathrin Lindern I think it would’ve been worse, a lot in the books it talks about how much more controlled their lives were in 13 even if they were well fed. days scheduled, no celebration or excess, monitored, not above inhuman punishment for things like stealing bread for example. No way Coin would’ve stopped, probably would’ve said they didn’t have the capacity to figure out a new system and so would’ve continued with the old routine of bare minimum and a tightly controlled population. plus you know her idea about another hunger games
I know Snow was evil but I liked the way he was. The way he was always honest. He didn’t hide behind some mask pretending that he wasn’t the villain. He knew what he was and so he was honest about it. He also never lied to Katniss, never hid who he was from her. Coin hid who she was. She kept her true self secret from Katniss and district 13. I also did like that Katniss killed her. Coin was a terrible person and so was Snow but Snow was already dying. Katniss knew that no matter what he would die so she didn’t need to shoot him so instead she shot Coin
I’m rereading Mockingjay because I forget literally everything but I remember Katniss killing Coin. I literally cheered because even though I hated Snow he never killed her sister. It was Coin who was. Snow didn’t kill Finnick. Coin sent him getting him killed. I hate Coin.
@@poseidons_child. Snow straight up said that while he had no problem killing people…. He wasn’t wasteful with it. He wouldn’t kill people he had no reason to kill. Coin would’ve killed anyone regardless of whether she had a reason to or not. In truth, I don’t believe she ever cared about Panam… she just wanted the power that came with it. Even after the war was over, Coin wouldn’t have stopped the killing.
@@jac7198 I think it’s an indirect kill as in she helped perpetrate the war and sent so many people to fight it that she in a way takes responsibility for many of their deaths
I love the fact that, despite being indirectly responsible for the elimination of a far worse leader than him, Snow isnt given any kind of redemption arc. He's evil and no amount of good or moral actions can ever make it better and the book knows this. Far too many books treat the villain doing one slightly good thing as them having a chance at redemption. Because most of the time they can't.
It takes a special kind of stupid to think Coin is more evil than Snow. Snow was the literal devil, look at all the people who died and how horribly they did. The only death that was because of Coin was Prim (plus all the people around her). Every single other death was because of Snow, plus the torture and genocide and who can forget the hunger games themselves.
@@junior523 She has lower numbers of murdering in her name because Katniss stopped her before she can even began . Snow ruled for much longer than Coin. Coin only ruled for a couple of days Now imagine Coin has the same time limit of governing Panem like Snow did . Which governing would be worse Snow or Coin . Coin was that bad even from the beginning , now imagine she rules Panem so many years . İt would be absolute nightmare. İt would be so bad ,that Snow would look like an Angel compared to İt.
@@yagzguven8099 I can imagine. I would rather live in district 13 (which was governed by Coin for years) for a million years than live in the districts for one day under Snow's rule. Having to ration your food is not even close to sending your kids to the hunger Games. What happened to the prep team is absolutely nothing compared to what happened to the avoxs (if you are a non book reader an avox is a traitor to the capitol who gets their tongue cut out. There are three major avoxs: the red headed avox girl (her name is something close to Lavinia but not sure if that's correct) who was captured when her and a boy assumed to be her brother escaped the capitol as kids and her brother was killed. Katniss and Gale could have saved her since they had managed to run all the way to the forest around district 12, probably heading for district 13 but the capitol got them. Anyway when the Capitol had Peeta they tortured her until her heart gave out in front of Peeta because the Capitol realized her and Katniss had some kind of relationship and wanted to fuck with Peeta. She was very lucky. Another avox is Darius who was a peacekeeper in district 12. He stepped in when Gale was being whipped to death and Thread knocked him out and had him sent to the Capitol to become an Avox. He also had to serve Peeta and Katniss when they went to the capitol although he only served them the second time (75th H.G). Anyway just like Lavinia he was tortured Infront of Peeta before they began torturing Peeta himself but unfortunately for him his heart did not give out immediately so the torture lasted. They would electrify, burn or cut pieces of him slowly while asking him questions which they knew he could not answer because he had no tongue. All he could do is quiver in fear and make a horrid gurgling sound. This comment is getting long so I won't get into other people's torture.) You may want to say this is all because we follow the books during a period when the Capitol is in charge but the fact remains noone in district 13 wad actively afraid of being tortured if they stepped out if line unless they took too much food and even then they just be imprisoned. The fact remains people were running from Snow's rule to go live under Coin. Yes she would have been a tyrant but there is no way she is comparable to Snow. Tl;Dr :the atrocities committed in district 13 under Coin's rule are none existent when scaled against the atrocities committed in the other districts and even in the Capitol under Snow's rule.
Yeah, I've wondered that. Especially since in the book she was only given one arrow to execute Snow. She only had one shot to change the world forever.
Its amazing and poetic in a way how Coin died it the hands of the Mockingjay, which she helped creating; while Snow died in the hands of the people of Panem who he tormented for all these years. They both got what they deserved.
@@deesucks6244 welp katniss didnt want kill snow cause all district want he died so she gave that power to people while she has to kill coin cause she saw another version of snow in coin and yes Katniss won here the true victor
I think Dr. Gaul was the true villain. She made muttations, she groomed snow to what he was, she also instated the hunger games based on a concept from Casca Highbottom and Snow's father.
I think the question of "who is worse - Coin or Snow" is not meant to be an easy answer because it is literally the entire plot of Mockingjay, if not the entire point of the series as a whole. The Hunger Games books are constantly asking us to pick the better of two evils - pay tesserae, or avoid putting your name in the pot extra times? Break the law to hunt for food, or starve? Rebel against the Capitol, or play their games and survive? Save Katniss, the asset, or save Peeta, the moral center? Sacrifice your now, for your better future? All of these terrible, unanswerable, and often lose-lose questions are what Suzanne Collins asks us to analyze because that is the nature of war and the nature of tyrannical governments. And the end of the day, I think Katniss realizes that Coin and Snow are both evil, but they represent different facets of the definition, and that trading Snow's version of evil for Coin's will not be the victory Panem needs in the end. It's why she chooses to kill Coin, she's just choosing the more pragmatic of the evils to eliminate.
All things considered, That might be a bit of an over-analysis. Snow was beaten. Even if she didn't kill him that day, he was done for and would never rule again, and would likely die anyway. Even if shed pulled a stunner and outright spared him, He was already defeated. She just pre-empted Coin so they wouldn't go through the same mess over again. Better to do it there and then before she become as insulated and embedded as Snow.
Snow represents cold hard truth. He is vicious, but he doesn't lie. He rules with fear and knows he is evil. Coin is a deceptive, narcissistic, selfish person who uses humans instincts against them. She is incredibly planned and knows when to cut losses. This makes her much worse
i really like your analysis. i think coin was definitely worse because at the point of the execution, snow was as good as dead so coin is the greater evil. but to analyse who is the greater evil, it is indisputably coin imo. but i feel that when one says that (and it appears lots in the comments), it means that snow is inherently good. both are bad, coin is worse imo (maybe not to others) but it isn't really a competition. earlier in the book, the greater evil would be snow but in the end, the situation was perfect to eliminate both evils: with snow's fate sealed and coin not being in full power yet
@@biancadesousa Nothing narrow minded about it. It's just simple observation. Snow was done. There wasnt any choice between who was going to be killed in Katniss's eyes. Shes a pragmatic girl. Shes going to recognize in that instance that Snow is removed as a threat, and she would never have another shot at eliminating Coin. I guarantee she made her mind up before she demanded the right to "execute Snow" The rest of the analysis is on point. The last part just less so.
The Hunger Games is the first popular piece of fiction I’ve seen that adresses the reality of violent “revolution” In political science it’s a well documented fact that violent insurgencies are more likely to produce worse authoritarian governments, While pacifist mass-protest movements almost always produce democracies (because of the massive popular support a sustained civil resistance movement must have to succeed.)
I think the movies also do a good job of explaining that sometimes, a peaceful course isn’t always the best option either. I’m not one to condone violence but it wasn’t like Panem would allow a peaceful revolution
@@octavianschaefer7294 Not really, usually the "pacifist" revolutionaries tend to have malicious intent hidden in the shadows, they're violent differently compared to outwardly government always initiated attacks within the context you guys are all speaking of
Katniss killing Coin was the most poetic ending possible. No matter what Katniss did, she wasn't in control, and any time she had the tiniest bit of control, it was stripped away and heavily punished. Think the nightlocke stunt, she controlled the game, once, and then she had to live the rest of the year in her love facade with Peeta. She had been controlled and manipulated. But when she kills Coin, she is in control, she shot the arrow, and she wasn't punished for it. It's so poetic and Collins is a genius. There's so much hidden symbolism and it's so entertaining when you aren't even looking for it.
Great video. Coin is clearly the villain of the story. Snow watched Cannibalism, endured live bombings, starved and was orphaned in his childhood, while Coin received an education, had a pleasurable daily routine, was safe in her underground bunker and enjoyed full autonomy from the Capitol after the Dark Days. The fact that she did not kill Katniss earlier was the only thing that surprised me. She is without a doubt one of the most evil characters that I have ever read about and perfectly highlights the message that one should not support a tyrant to change things for the better. Thankfully, Katniss took her out in time, which gives the story at least a somewhat non-negative ending.
And she showed herself to be a poor choice of a leader as she decided a hunger games for capitol would be a great idea.Here she shows a lack of understanding with the 12 districts, as they hate the idea of the games and they fought to end the games.Next, it’s her suggestion to the victors left, to the people who suffered the most from the games, showing her belief that people want to repeat the games for revenge.Because district 13 never had the games, and has lived in comfort unlike every other district since they have to give to capitol, it shows her as being tone deaf.
Both Snow and Coin are villains in the story, she may have lived better than Snow at the start, but then the man became the president of Panem, he lived lavishly while she and 1e were just surviving underground with what they could, they were better off than some other districts but they werent the Capitol. Shes just as evil as Snow, but make no mistake, where they to trade places they would behave just like the other
I thought the third Hunger Games book was one of the most memorable and horrifying yet impactful "revolution" stories. When Gale kills the children and the medics, it was the most shocking thing I'd read as a teenager. I've never forgotten that moment. One of the things Hunger Games did so well was show the risk of revolution to create a new oppressive regime. Just like real revolutions did. The French Revolution, the Russian revolution, the Arab Spring, China's Cultural Revolution etc. The fact Katniss realises this and breaks the cycle is so important.
@nia-oc4uo I just finished reading Mocking Jay today and this is where I'm confused. I'm conflicted with why Katniss broke everything off with Gale. I knew he said I had one job to do watch over Prim.... but how was he responsible for the bomb? I know he made it but he was captured at the time it exploded.
@@DeserieDrewTo Katniss, Prim's death will always be tied to Gale. Even if he didn't physically release the bombs, he was indirectly responsible for her death by making the double bombing plan Coin used later on.
Sadly, in real life, merely killing the evil dictators doesn't bring about good change on it's own. Evil dictators represent the people who empower them. Every single person who cheered for the Hunger Games was lifting up both Snow and Coin. Their callous indifference to the suffering and death of young teens, regardless of where they were born, became Snow and Coin's callous indifference to the death and suffering of their opponents. The end result of killing Snow and Coin was far more likely to be some other violent evil dictator taking power. The people of Panem could only be ruled by tyranny because it's what they wanted for their "enemies". What you desire for your enemies is, inevitably, what you desire for yourself... and the hamster wheel of human history, ever turning, continues it's frenzied pace, never realizing that no amount of effort will change it's position. It is a game that can only be won by stepping off the wheel of violence and oppression.
"But make no mistake, she intends to take my place now But I've been watching you And you watching me I'm afraid we've both been played for fools" - snow
Snow thinks its funny because both Coin and Snow tried to use her, but the thing about Katniss that brought Snow down is the same thing that brings Coin down. No one could've predicted this outcome, but they should've because this is the same thing Katniss does in every single book: Looks tyranny in the eye and tells it, "No."
Coin was ultimately scarier than Snow because of her bottomless desire to be worshipped and adored by an entire country. She was reluctant to pardon an innocent Peeta because she wanted to convict him and the other innocent victors as traitors, all as a publicity stunt, and later attempted to reinstate the Hunger Games for the same reason. Snow only wanted to rule through fear, but Coin was chasing adulation and was well on the way of creating a cult of personality around herself. It's really terrifying that she started a war that would kill off about half the population of Panem by dangling the promise of freedom over the citizens of the districts, when she truly didn't care about freedom or justice - she was exclusively self-serving, and she got them all killed in the name of freedom she didn't actually believe in, simply to expand her own power.
I disagree. This video and many comments negate all of Coins motives that come from the pressure of having a whole district of desperate people who had survived genocide to take care of. It also negates Snows wealthy and solid background as though that wouldn't give him the privilege to be very open about his intentions, plans, and calculations....everything Coin did it can be logically assumed Snow did dozens of times over throughout the years. Remembering the history and background I don't think Coin was scarier. She never had the real chance to be. Snow had the power to not pull the moves she did for most of the time, but he would have and likely did similar when needed.
last to party Coin is scarier because Katniss is the point of view character and Coin poses more of a threat to Katniss than Snow does. Throughout most of the third book, Katniss is close to Coin and facing the possibility of spending the rest of her life as a chess piece on Coin’s board. As readers, we get to see just how callous Coin can be and how willing she is to sacrifice Katniss, the Everdeens, and the other victors for what she sees as the greater good. By the third book, Snow is a shrinking threat to Katniss. If the book was written by a random civilian in either District Thirteen or one of the other Panem Districts, Coin would be the obviously less scary individual. But objectively, Coin is a better leader than Snow. Coin doesn’t have a choice but to rule District Thirteen with an iron fist. Thirteen is a community that is literally rising from the ashes of a post nuclear hellscape. They have very limited resources and a fragile population. Someone who hoards food or introduces a disease to the community will cause the deaths of innocent people. And Thirteen is always on the brink of collapse if it stops running at peak efficiency. The only way the district could have survived was through a brutal authoritarian making sure every single person does their part. Snow’s Panem had no such resource shortages. Snow chose to cause food shortages in the districts to facilitate decadent overconsumption in the Capitol. He could have enacted policies that distributed resources more equitably and the need for brutal totalitarianism in the districts would be diminished. But he chose to starve and murder his own people. Coin is ambitious and vengeful. She wants to institute a reign of terror to make the Capitol pay for their crimes. But that’s not evil. I don’t really see how her plan to punish the capitol with a hunger games is that different from the insistence that Germany be brutally punished for World War One after they had lost the war. We can’t really call her evil for that without also condemning the US, France, and Great Britain for the abject poverty of Weimar Germany. It’s a human impulse to want revenge on people who have hurt you. Coin’s new games aren’t ok. But they’re understandable. And her desire to take over Panem is understandable too. She just led one of the most outmatched military’s in history to victory. It was her cold efficiency that overthrew the Capitol. It’s not a stretch to expect such an effective leader to take control of the territory she conquered.
Elijah Culper Execpt every historian does condem the Allies for the Versailles Treaty, which led to Weimar Germany’s abject poverty. Furthermore, even American politicians at the time found the treaty to be too harsh and formed their own treaty with Germany.
Snow actually is one of my favourite movie villains, because he is an honest one. He never lied to Katniss and he knew when he was beaten. He is not like others who want to take everyone with them, as they go down
@@judyolibrice5985 Lol agree with above post. Young adult/children's books can be entertaining but they seldom measure up to ones that have to gain acclaim by hooking adults who on average recognise and value smarter writing character development themes etc. Not that I don't love alot of YA books. But I do believe that my favourite ones don't quite hold up when compared to the more mature ones. A good example I can think of is a brave new world vs the hunger games. Enders game series vs Harry Potter. Less comparable I know. Interview with a vampire series vs twilight. I'd say ofcourse that isn't always the case. I'd count lord of the rings amongst the grates and as a YA book with no objectively better mature counterpart other than perhaps game of thrones.
What I find the most sad is Katniss was just a teenager durning all of this and never was allowed to be her own person, even when she was the mockingjay everyone uses Katniss, and expected something from her. At least Snow made this very clear, that she wasn’t her own person, but Coin did not
Well its interesting, she is the main character but she kind of never decided the plot of the story. It was Seneca Crane(with the idea to give people hope btw.), Snow, Coin, Plutarch, Haymitch,Ceasar Flickerman or Cinna which decided the plot or used her as a object.
Whew! It’s been years since I read these books, but I remember being kind of confused as to why katniss killed coin. But based on everything you talked about, it’s pretty clear why she took the shot. And my god. Isn’t that the cruelest irony, that just got me, how prim dies even though the whole reason this story started was to save her?
I feel like anyone who had won the HGs in the past would have been killed by Coin after the war. So that other districts couldn't rally around them if the district didn't toe the line under her rule.
Because a mass of angry, determined people are easier to manipulate and control. Tell them something that'll whip them into a frenzy and give them a target.
@@oliviasturm4909 Oh yeah I agree, Coin most certainly didn’t care about the victors, they would be considered more of a threat. She most likely used the “rescue” plot as a way to try and deter Katniss and the others to her side. Trick them into thinking she was their ally.
Katniss reveals her intentions much earlier than at the execution. When they are talking about killing Snow Katniss says "For Prim". I feel like that's because she had decided by then that Coin was the bad guy.
I love the two main villains of the Hunger Games. Snow and Coin. Snow was evil and he knew it. But he's a honest villain and doesn't hide behind a mask like most villains. As for Coin, she's a master manipulator and schemer. It was poetic that she was killed by the mockingjay at the end.
12:00 one thing to point out is that gale designed that attack (and kat witnessed it). that is how kat knew coin did it. the public thought that snow did it. 12:40 kat was already suspicious and pretty sure that coin did it, snow just gave her that last bit of a push.
Umbrige is consistently cruel and evil that she even has a Patronus, since she experiences joy when doing what she does. She is certainly not Coin, who hides behind her mask of authority. If anything Coin is like Grindelwald.
Coin is like a narcissistic mother or prejudiced teacher who is so deep in her bias that she wishes someone would do something about the group she hates in a position of absolute power.
Why was no one concerned when coin was murdered? It seemed like everyone didn’t care and proceeded to kill snow. Wouldn’t her district try to kill Katniss for killing their leader? Also what bigger role did Plutarch have? He seemed like the mastermind behind snow and coins plan. But somehow he was left alive and was happy that both leaders were killed.
I was confused why katniss wasnt imprisoned or held accountable for anything at the execution, what she did was right but it was murder and nobody was shook?
@@fearia7793 In the books, Katniss was actually in prison and later got deemed insane and got sent to a mental hospital (if I remember correctly) before being set free. While I love the movies, they left out a lot of details from the books cuz of screen time
She was locked up for a long time. Maybe months. Then Haymitch came and he said "Your trial is over, we're going home" or something like that. So she had a trial and everything.
He spent a lot of time under coin, we know he was always trying to be a voice of reason against harsh consequences while katniss was in district 13, and I think it's safe to say that dynamic existed long before the events of the third book. I'm sure he just felt relieved he wouldn't have to deal with her crap anymore lol
Actually, Coin wasn't intimidated by Katniss for the president position. She was scared that Katniss wont support her as president since Katniss has a lot more influence than anyone. Thats why her plan is that Katniss is more valuable dead than alive
You’re right about that. I remember reading in the books that one of Coin’s lieutenants, maybe Boggs? Asked Katniss, once Peeta showed up to the front lines, if she thought about who should be in charge after they took down President Snow. Katniss hesitated and he said something to the effect of, “if you have to think about it, then you’re a threat to her.” He explained that Katniss’s reluctance to publicly support President Coin made her a threat because the people of Panem would be looking to Katniss to see who she threw her support behind. He suggested that Coin would take the opportunity to eliminate Katniss at Peeta’s hands to make sure she wouldn’t get in Coin’s way. This would make Katniss a martyr for the rebels and give Coin a reason to execute Peeta as well.
Snow wasn't expecting Katniss to just go all "haha sike" and shoot Coin in the middle of a nationally televised event. He laughed his ass off at the balls Katniss had on her for doing that
I find it incredible that Coin didn’t have a protective layer of glass between her and Katniss as standard for every President. Perhaps she was so self absorbed she thought there was zero chance she would be killed. Still you have to think that she has security advisors who warned her to install protective measures.
I think Coin is the Worst. Snow born into the society that legalize thw whole thing, so he's just following the footstep of his predecesor. Coin meanwhile, have the chance to make something new but decide to continue the old system, only different player.
Thing is: you never get to see Coin being evil and showing her true intentions. And even if she does, you always can blame the very poor mental state of Katniss in the last book. All this things, the conspirations and the plans are never shown nor confirmed by any character, you can only see through Katniss lenses and what she hears, bot only that. Rumors, observations, that might as well be part of her imagination. As I was reading the book i found really clever that Katniss realises this thing, and doesn´t act in base of what she things until the very end, when the evil in Coin was undeniable.
Who else gets some creepy vibes from the movie form of coin. Like she perfectly depicts how pretty cruel she it. Just the face and everything. And her speech and outfit before she died.
I love the scene where Coin is having the former victors vote on whether or not they will hold the hunger games for the capital. There is so much going on there that is between the lines.
She was being manipulative. Basically saying “this decision is on your hands” and cast any guilt back to them because truthfully she wanted it to re-instate The Hunger Games to create fear and stay in power.
the movies have Haymitch more or less as a good guy and Johanna as a brutal but noble warrior, so having them vote yes would be upsetting to the movie characters. Haymitch is much more morose and despondent in the books and Johanna is incredibly violent, with more of their stories fleshed out, often out of phase with the predominant flow of the story. It's like they are bad people swept up in a rising tide of heroism and just playing along.
@@SantomPh I think that downplays the trauma Haymitch and Joanna faced on the hands of the Capitol - Haymitch had his entire family killed off for his antics in the Games, Joanna was directly tortured for months on end, so much that she is pretty much left with lifelong trauma (morphling addiction, aquaphobia, etc). Its not that they are bad people, just very much traumatized for what they have experienced. IMO, that kind of justifies their desire for revenge, especially for Joanna considering her torture is fresh in her mind.
11:09 There is a conversation between Katniss and Boggs about this.(something like this:) B: When we win, and there will be an election, who will you vote for? K: _hesitates_ B: If you can‘t say Coin right away, you‘re a threat to her.
Snow: Only kills people/children to keep the districts in line Coin: Kills a ton of her OWN medics, which is two war crimes (Killing teammates, and killing medics) when the outcome of the war was basically decided in her favor, which meant she has no reason to kill the medics, manipulated the districts into fighting her war for her, and didn't even get rid of the thing the people was fighting to remove, which is the hunger games. Yeah, I think it is pretty easy to see who is worse. I mean, at least Snow admits he is evil. (Also, side note, who names their child Coin unless they are referencing the "Two sides of a same coin" saying?)
Yeah let me correct that one for you Snow: kills 23 children for amusement annually (one year it was 47 kids) To any child that lived threatens to kill that child's family if they do not allow themselves to be used either politically (like katniss) or sexually (like finnick) and kills some of these children's families just to make his point (Hamitch and Joanna) Oppresses the districts and leaves them to starve while the capital people quite literally puke food so they can keep eating. Turns anyone who dares defy him into an avox which incase you are a movie watcher means he cuts off your tongue and forces you to become a slave in the capital. Tortures multiple people including but not limited to Cinna, Peeta, Joanna, (Darius and the other red head avox from book 1), Annie Turns his own friend who was all he has at his lowest moment into a tiger woman just for a joke I could go on but I think you get my point 98% of all the evil in the books is because of Snow it's pretty self explanatory Meanwhile Coin: forced districts to fight the capital since it is to her benefit for her to use them then sweep over the remains ...and btw the districts still benefit since they get their freedom so it's by far the better deal Kills Katniss' sister because Katniss was 100% a legitimate threat to her (nothing wasteful about that from her point of view) Kills her own medics (this one is straight up indefensible) Holds Katniss' prep team hostage for stealing food; do i need to remind you how little food is available in district 13 and how spoiled the capital people were. The writer even goes out of her way to compare district 13 to the capital saying they both were in the same position where one had Control of all the districts and the other had to survive on it's own, but while the district 13 people had only ever known hardship the people of the capital could not help themselves. Also how many children did the prep team prepare for their deaths. Remember cinna was the only new one, they had prepared many tributes before and even complained about how they hated whiners. I have no mercy for those who show no mercy to others) End of list Any long story short Coin may be wicked and Katniss 100% made the right choice killing her but Snow is a million times worse and anyone who says otherwise is a fool.
Sarah Thomas Well it’s a Dungeons and Dragons reference involving what alignment your character is and how people will interact with you. Snow is Lawful Evil because he dominates over all and will do everything to keep power. Whereas Coin is Chaotic Evil Who just destroy in a senseless manner to attain power.
@@CT-Irodion Na... Coin did the things she did with lots of strategy and planning. She wasn't an anarchist either. Maybe neutral evil because she was also more subvert than snow, but still incredibly strategic and organized in her plans?
Well actually, I'd say they are both lawful evil, jut different sides of the law. Snow perpetuates the current law in evil ways while Coin tries to reverse that law in ways that are just as evil. Lawful evil implies that they follow the rules almost to a literal extent or interpret the law to in a way that let's them do evil.
*pretending to care for others while at the same time insuring they have no means (or desire) of becoming self reliant and punishing those who start thinking for themselves and no longer seeing the government as there one and only savior...sound familiar?*
If Coin was a person, she would be the USA. Everything about her reflects on USA's foreign policy. Double faced, double standard, and manipulative. Appear that they care so much but its all about the power and influence over others through wars! Just look at Libya and Iraq for just a few examples. :)
I actually admired Snow for never lying to Katniss and being real with her, and he knew to accept that he lost when Katniss killed Coin instead of him, I think he knew that she had the potential to end it and that he was gonna die anyway by the hands of the people he terrorised
🤓 actually in the books we learn that snow never believed Katniss was going to stop the rebellion. He made her believe she had to convince everyone including himself to stop the spark from spreading by acting like she loved peta and so on in order to distract her, keep her busy, entertain panam, and keep her away from the other tributes. He never believed she was going to change any one’s mind or prevent the rebellion. He was just keeping her busy so she wouldn’t use her fame to make things worse.
I just realized that the end of Mockingjay left Annie & Finnick’s child fatherless just as Katniss was fatherless since she was a child. This feels like in the Harry Potter Series where Harry Potter is parentless and in the end Tonks and Lupin’s son Teddy Lupin is left parentless to reflect Harry. Finnick’s and Annie’s romance was a small romance to show other things could happen during these difficult times. This was the same thing that happened with Tonks’s and Lupin’s romance.
In the interview with Peeta, where he is clearly brainwashed he says something such as 'Do you know who your working for? What they want?' [thats a paraphrase, not a quote]. When they show Katniss she has a kind weird response/stare thing going on. I think that is the moment she realized how bad Coin was. Katniss knew Snow wouldn't lie to her, so if that message was from him, it had to mean something truthful. Snow knew he was a horrible human being, so if he felt Coin would be even worse, I'm with him on that.
I think Katniss realized that he was telling the truth because he had nothing to gain from lying. He knew he would die either way. He was an evil man but he didn't lie. I think the true poeticness of her name is how she had 2 faces and 2 enemies.
both are useless,coin is tryna get snow position by using katniss and snow just wanna control the capital and district by himself.what worse is coin just cover herself by being kind ,care so that all panem and capital would follow her
I’ve always seen Coin and Snow as an allegory for Stalin and Hitler. Both equally evil, both totalitarian, but seen as two different entities one left the other right(white/black,Rebel/Leader)
Coin is like every rebel leader -charismatic, manipulative and driven to take the leadership but when they get it, realize they have to be the people they replaced to stay on top. The correct analogy is perhaps Snow as Hitler but Coin as Mao Zedong. Mao was also a leader of a (at the time) small faction with barely enough to survive but rode a wave of support among the peasantry to rule the world's largest by population country. Like Coin, Mao was very heavy on the propaganda and promoted heroes of the Revolution for his benefit. While Stalin was the heir to Lenin and the communist apparatus, he had to fight for his place initially among many similar candidates, which neither Coin or Mao ever had to do. Much like Coin and Stalin, Mao's legacy was dismantled by their former protege , in this case Katniss and Deng Xiaoping, who both publicly "assassinated" them in different ways ( Deng prosecuted Mao's wife and close circle and turned China into a market economy).
One of the scenes from the movies that I think helps confirm that Coin was worse than Snow is when Snow tells Katniss that he's not above taking the life of a child but that he's not wasteful either and that taking the lives of all of the capital children (also prims life) was a waste. He also tells her that he was just about to surrender anyways. Plus- the only reason Coin did this was trick the people of the capital into siding with the rest of districts, AKA, becoming loyal to Pres. Coin.
I think coin is slightly worse both in terms of character and hunger games plans. Canonically, in Snow’s or the original version of the games, there were only meant to be 100 games (we know this because there are only four planned quarter quells). Coin wanted them to last (presumably) forever. Coin’s version of the games also chose 24 tributes from the same district and said district didn’t have as many people per. square mile, meaning it was far more likely for friends to be pitted against each other and lead to a drastic change in population in that district. Snow’s version, while kills the same amount of people, is more diverse and therefor a smaller loss to each individual district. I also find it strange how due to systemic racism, the older children were prepared for combat without realizing it (being familiar with tools or weapons used for farming, mining, fishing, ect.), whereas the children of The Capitol would be helpless. EDIT: By the population thing, I mean that by the time Snow’s version of the games was over, each district would lose about 200 people (not excluding winners), but the Capitol would lose 2,400 in the same amount of time, while already having a lower population compared to places like district 11.
RU-vid has been making more and more rules against creators in terms of content, strikes, compensation, etc. A lot of creators are preparing backup plans in case something happens to their channel or RU-vid is no longer a feasible platform for them.
Coin was really terrifying from the start. Like, with Snow, you knew from the first word what he was all about. A very frontal and brutal person who didn't care about crowd love. But Coin was all facades, evolving in a vey disturbing structure where we only discover its brutality in backstage. They aimed for the same goal : power, but in a very opposite way. Also, the music you used here it is really chilling. What is it ?
Awh hell yeah! Even tho the book series and movies are in the past thank you for still uploading content like this it just refreshes my love for the story and gets me back into the movies and books thanks chief!
I think Coin is worse as Snow was raised on Capitol ideologies, and therefore isn’t as responsible for his actions as Coin. Snow also did not create the Games. It’s sort of like the logic Katniss uses to defend her prep team.
tsuyu asui but Plutarch and Fulvia had played parts in the Games as well. It was only when a Gamemaker was executed that they ran to the rebels. Also, Cinna and Portia’s origins are unknown.
tsuyu asui Snow, since he was an aristocrat to begin with, had a more sheltered existence. He also wasn’t in any danger among his citizens until the end of the series.
tsuyu asui ALSO also the only true Capitol citizens who joined for their own selfish reasons were a minuscule fraction of the Capitol population. You couldn’t use your argument unless you held the Capitol rebels up to ever single person in the Capitol and ask why they couldn’t be that way.
At the part of the revenge Hunger Games I almost quit reading, and I didn't believe what was happening. Such a great ending, that it is unknown if Snow was killed by the angry mob or that he laughed himself to death at the killing of Coin. Truly sadistic, and the perfect ending
exactly. He knows that h's evil, and he revels in that. Coin thinks she's helping her people when she's being just that evil. it all comes down to the transparency of the 2 evils. Snow is more open so you know what you're getting with him. Coin will look at you, will make you think she's there for you. Next thing you know, she's the reason your family is killed.
Snow is so powerful he doesn't need to lie, and even promises to Katniss that he will never lie to her. Coin never makes that promise and is in charge of a literal nuclear silo-so manipulation is breakfast for her.
Small spoiler for The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes because I don't want people yelling at me- The prequel made me think that. I actually liked him well enough up until the Sejanus incident.
@@survivorfandan44 just like the real world, when people fail to realize they have a capacity for darkness, they're able to do unspeakable things that someone who isn't deluded by a sense of moral superiority can do. Nobody every committed genocide because they thought they were wrong. Dehumanizing others is a *choice* and we see that Coin dehumanizing people from the other districts and the capitol just as much if not more than Snow, who is aware of the moral consequences of his action. In short, Snow acts because it's rational, Coin operates out of vengeance. Outwardly subtle initially, but VASTLY different in the grand scheme
Snow would still shoot you in the back but he’d let you know it’s a very real possibility when dealing with him before hand. Coin would just shoot you in the back
@@nippy7425 True some villains have honor like Capt. Hector Barbossa - The villain from Pirates of the Caribbean - Who has honor & always kept his word humbly. And for the dishonorable villain like the Dragon Emperor from the Mummy - Who's ambitious, ruthless, deceitful & brutal. Who never kept his word just lied & order the execution of his own general. I'll say for Snow is honorable - Who never tells a lie. While Coin is dishonorable - Because she lied & tricked everyone. Also she ordered the bombing towards capitol children along with their own - Mostly Rebel medics along with Prim. She's more ruthless than Snow. Its good that Katniss come to her senses & then she put down that wicked tyrant to death for good.
Snow didnt lie to Katniss because he didnt have to. Otherwise, he lies all the time! He has no moral codes, he just does what he feels he needs to do. You are all completely misrepresenting the character
The message Collins is giving to us is that we need to change are ways and I hope she also has a great message in the new book take the line from Katniss "I guess our ancestors didn't care about us as much." that line is very powerful because we are just attacking ourselves shootings happening left and right so much trash going into landfill and air is getting worse mental health needs to get better, and fights and murders us having enemies is only going to make it worse we need to love everybody sure they may have done really bad stuff but at the end of the day we are all still human so please we need to make difference and that starts with us so please like and share this to friends, family, a random person and also sorry if I have a lot of grammar errors.
I mean its a young adult Dystopian. You could say its main influence, Battle Royale, did the same thing in a much more visceral fashion. Honestly, Collins really isn't a pioneer here. Its a good story, and the movies are great...but I can honestly say...the movies are better than the books.
As I pointed out in response to another video from "The Hunger Games" here on RU-vid...who knows how long Coin was pulling the strings behind the scenes during the series?? At some point prior to the events of "Catching Fire" -- how long, one wonders? -- Coin must have found a way to reach out to individuals such as Plutarch Heavensbee (it seems very unlikely that it went the other way since it could so easily have been a trap). Clearly, when District 13 appears virtually out of nowhere to save Katniss at the end of "Catching Fire", this is not an example of the literary device known as "deus ex machina" -- they didn't just suddenly decide to save her. This was all part of a PLAN. As Snow points out when he meets with Katniss after he's captured, Coin played both him and Katniss for fools by pitting them against each other. The last bombing which killed Prim aired live but Snow would never have allowed anything like that to air since it would have made (and did make) Snow look bad. It can only have been Coin who did that -- especially since she had already been using Katniss to create agitprop. Once Katniss disposed of Coin's rival, had Katniss not shot her instead, it seems quite likely that Coin would have found a way to kill Katniss and make it look either like an accident or suicide.
Prim's death being Coin's doing was foreshadowed much earlier, when Katniss heard someone from the rebels (I forgot who, I read it a long time ago) teach the other higher-ups of the rebellion about this tactic and how cruel yet effective it would be.
It was Gale. That's one of the reasons Gale and Katniss have a bit of a falling out at the end and don't end up in a relationship - Gale tells her he wasn't responsible for the bombings that day, but he was a part of the team that came up with the original idea, so he knows Katniss will always associate him with what happened to her sister regardless.
While the movies did a good job with the material, It cannot be overstated how amazingly well written the books are. What a story! It would be pretty cool to get a prequel book on Coin as we did with Snow.
I just love how in depth you go into these series. I learn so much from these videos and I feel like I actually understand what is going on! Thank you! :D
I'm just thinking about how traumatized Katniss was after the rebellion and all the deaths she witnessed while trying to get to the Capitol. So many people in her unit died, including Boggs and Finnick, and then Prim right after them. And then speaking to Snow who told her that he didn't plan the bombing of Capitol children, nor Prim's death just further left Katniss tormented. Katniss was trying to figure out what to do when she faced Snow on the day of his execution because she didn't know what/who to believe, but even then, Katniss was able to shoot straight for the one who killed her sister - Coin. Katniss was going through a lot and yet she still did what she needed to do. She was even ready to take her own life, until Peeta stopped her (because that's what they do, keep each other alive) I think even after everything that happened in the hunger games trilogy, Katniss at her core was still the girl whose main goal was to look out for her sister. She avenged Prim and inadvertantly revolutionized the world of Panem with her bow and arrow by killing the next tyrannical ruler, Coin.
In the movie, Col. Boggs actually summed Coin up pretty well. Mentioning that she would kill anyone who posed a threat and that meant anyone who the people would see as a viable leader in lieu of her.
The personifications of Coin and Snow fit very well with the lessons of "The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics" by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita and Allistair Smith. In their book, Mesquita and Smith provide insights into how dictatorships and democracies function and how revolutions can be opportunistically overturned by individuals seeking the same power held by the previous corrupt regimes.
From what I remember, Coin wasn't very present in the books. She was mainly talked about and not really in ways that developed her (Then again it's been years since I read the series plus I wasn't mature enough to understand everything so). Katniss' decision to kill her felt kinda random to me since I never really saw her as threatening. This video inspired me to re-read the series to get a better grasp now that I'll be better able to grasp certain themes. Plus I need a refresher cuz I remember practically nothing. When tf was it stated that she did the bombing to frame Snow? I'm blaming my lack of interest in Mockingjay for all of my confusion
After Snow was captured. Katniss wandered through the mansion and gained access to where Snow was being held. Snow tells Katniss that he was about to surrender when the bombs were dropped. Katniss is skeptical. Snow reminds her that they agreed not to lie to each other. Thus Coin authorized the bombing that killed Prim. Coin also wanted to reinstate the Hunger Games using Capitol children. Katniss ultimately realized that Coin was just like Snow, and nothing would change if she lived.
killing her was quite sudden but remember it was Katniss' only choice. the other option would've been to warn the rebellion about Coin by exposing that she was the one who bombed the civilians. however, since the only 'witness' to that truth was Snow, and Katniss was the only one who would ever be able to take his word for it (because she knew Snow never lied to her), nobody would've believed her. who would believe Snow over their supposed noble leader? they'd have called her a traitor and turned on her, maybe even accuse her of being brainwashed or a usurper. her best option was to do what she knew was the right thing to do, and let the public make her out to be the bad guy (until her eventual pardon). - btw sorry i know this is an old comment but it's an intriguing topic :)
in technical terms snow is much worse, having supported the hunger games for so long killing children every year. Coin didn’t do that. however in the revolution she become so keen for the power that she was willing to sacrifice her own people (children) as many have mentioned about the bombings killing the kids & medics & prim. it still doesnt justify how bad snow was but does come to terms with things. Snow was honest, & Coin was not. Snow never lied, he may have been a horirble person but never lied. He actually tried helping katniss toward the end of mockingjay, after being taken over by the rebels he told her how coin was the one who fooled both him & katniss. He knew he was going to die, but also knew coin was not good as their leader as she would take a similar direction. Snow knew Katniss would make things right. Coin wanting another hunger games shows she would do anything to keep her presidency. Hard to decide whos worse but im gonna go with the original antagonist, snow however coin is just a little bit under due to her sneakiness & hidden persona
Hunger games is one of the most well thought out stories ever it's absolutely amazing and if you look into colour theory within the film and possibly even the book you can tell there's a definitely colour palette plan
