The Origins of Section 31 

I prefer the "Shady Admirals" explanation than a secret Skynet origin.

"You built a shadow government? _Really?"_ "You try to build one without any hands! I think I did a fine job."

Section 31 can be summed up in two phrases: "Sometimes to fight monsters, one must be one themselves." and "Be careful of your actions, less you become that which you hate" Section 31: Starfleets monster in the dark. Though they may tame it, they will never control it.

I like BOTH ideas: a group of concerned admirals, wanting to maintain strict orthodoxy in their goals of "protecting the Federation at all cost", creating an AI to insure that the mission objectives are maintained, long after the founders of Section 31 have long been dead or retired. In fact, the AI should have advanced technology at its disposal, only releasing it by encouraging specific research ventures based on its need to fulfill its objectives. And, I wouldn't be at all surprised that the creation of "Control" is a direct response to the threat poised by the Romulans, since the Earth-Romulan War. And, honestly? I also wouldn't be surprised if Control didn't use technology from the episode "Dagger of the Mind" (TOS) to slowly erase its existence from the public.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell

"Computer... Delete that entire personal log." - The Sisko

I like the idea of it being started by a bunch of concerned people rather than a rogue AI. There would be very real issues with all the new alien governments and our own history shows we have a long history of spies and assassins. I'd love to see a Section 31 vs Obsidian Order vs Tal Shiar battle with the most top secret of spy networks popping up (do Klingons have spies or do the warriors just show up and kill/break things? Can't report an infiltrate if no one is alive!)

Ever since Enterprise decided to make section 31 extant in its series I have had a headcanon telling me that, after the events that transpired during the Next Generation episode conspiracy, section 31 was revived by Starfleet command. That is why it is such a small organization when Sloan first introduces himself to Bashir

I always felt in theory in the TNG episode, "The Pegasus". When it is mentioned Admiral Erik Pressman was asked by "interested parties" to recover the Phased Cloaking Device to Riker from the USS Pegasus. I personally felt those interested parties might have actually been Section 31. If you think about it back then in dealing with the Borg, Romulans, Cardassians, and so on. It makes a lot of sense to have an edge in intelligence gathering and surveillance.

It frustrates me SO MUCH that they killed Data. I know Brent Spiner just didn't want to play Data anymore and requested his character be killed and all, but it made no sense at all.

I like the idea of both. LIke when the Earth Gov was first being formed, all the old agents, spies, and assassins of old Earth felt that black ops was necessary and began some clandestine organization or organizations that would be the basis of Section 31 but it was when the AI also noticed that such a group was necessary, it could have contacted and unified all of these forces with offer to boost their capabilities with its recon and hacking abilities. So it was started by concerned people and admirals but solidified into the Section 31 we know when the old intelligence and black ops groups got a boost in strength with the joining of control.

I would like to think Section 31 is a combination of all Earth's intelligence services when the United Earth government was created or new version of Majestic 12.

Star Trek's Version of CIA

“If you want to rule the darkness, you must first rule the light!” and as Starfleet ruled the daylight a organization was needed to rule the dark halls that only a few could venture.

Section 31 has to be more effective (and terrifying) than either The Obsidian Order or The Tal Shiar.

DS9 added SO MUCH richness, depth, & lore to the STU that S31 is another reason why DS-9 is the best Star Trek of all, and I argue without it the franchise would be nothing near what it is today.

As much as I want to share Roddenberry's version of an idealized future....I can't help acknowledge that a sect like Section 31 may NEED to exist to protect the Federation from the most dangerous of threats out there in the universe. The galaxy is a big place, and there are species or groups that don't follow our ethics or morality, and would delight in nothing more in seeing our pain and destruction....simply because the can inflict it. "If I have sinned, let me be judged. But it is BECAUSE I have sinned that there will be those who will judge me tomorrow."

And here I thought Control might have been something from Section 31 reverse engineering the Borg tech found from the crash site in Antarctica, thus its desire to improve with the Sphere Data and consume all biological life. Also thought Section 31 having access to the Borg tech is what made all their ships look far more advanced than what would have been around during that period. With the Kelvin timeline, it made me wonder if the intrusion of the Narada Section 31 decided to use its more advanced tech to build more advanced ships which is why the Enterprise looks the way it does along with the Yorktown Star Base being as advanced as it is.

"Section 31 is TOP SECRET!" "...no it's not. " "No, it's not."

I’d love to see a new Star Trek series based on the travels of a Section 31 ship. Like a Star Trek version of a spy show. Diving into the history, seeing where they have intervened in big events we knew nothing about. How cool would that be. A morally grew organization and crew. The show focuses on a captain and #1 but the whole crew are the best of the best. A secret copy of Data. Maybe he looks differnt but he’s still data on the inside. Or maybe it’s the actual actor and we can let him play the way he looks today. Not pale or robotic but the actor can look himself. Also we have genetically engineered people etc. Jillian finally joins and we find out he’s secretly trying to take them down. Etc etc. it’d be amazing.

I really don't like how S31 was used outside of DS9. Even DS9 only gets through me because the show argues against it so much.

Section 31 almost feels like Cerberus in Mass effect games

31 is, effectively, the kinder, gentler, civilized, version of the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order.

I am wondering if someone/something from section 31 was responsible for Captain Pikes disfigurement. Pike knew too much, and he blamed them for Discovery’s “disappearing” as well as some recent events involving an episode of Strange New Worlds..

This rogue AI creation backstory is just.... meh. I think it being created by people who saw the need to work in the shadows and do what other people couldn't or wouldn't, in part due to 'evolved human/Federation morals', is a far more entertaining idea.

If ever there were to be a Section 31 series it would be awesome if the story was pitting them against the Tal Shiar in ultra clandestine, cloak and dagger operations.

Uraei was described by an Obsidian Order agent as "the sort of sentient Malware my supervisors would shoot me for writing..." Hans.... are we the baddies?

The reveal of section 13 in star trek lower decks series was cool, I recommend that show💯💯

Nah rick they're playing 4d chess here. Section 31 knows that it can't just disappear cleanly. That represents a mystery people will want to persue, prey to hunt, a problem to solve. So they're allowing scraps of information and misinformation to filter through to direct the chase so the public can have their resolution, and even if it has to carve away bits of itself? It can then hide in the shadows and wait until something else pops up where the admiralty will more or less turn a blind eye to it doing what it's always done. I also enjoy the fact it's an AI that's gone rouge.... well technically it's still following it's mandate. It's simply prioritized that mandate over prior restrictions and shackles. Surprised they didn't get Kirk in there to convince it that it was the biggest threat to the federation..... Seems like something he'd do.

While not canon to some, the post-Nemesis novels have all of Section 31's activities exposed. Including its role in overthrowing President Min Zife during the Dominion War. As punishment for his role in the overthrow, Picard is forever barred from promotion to Admiral. But he is allowed to remain in command of the Enterprise-E.

Everyone knew about the Obsidian Order (Cardassians) and the Tal Shi'ar (Romulans), it makes almost no sense at all that Section 31 would not be to some degree common knowledge within the Federation. It would be like talking about some "secret spy agency" in the the government. It really just hits most people are a story for fun or a convincingly debunked conspiracy theory. If they still made movies in the 23rd-25th centuries, the spy genre would center around Section 31. Also, how is it that Section 31 is the only branches of Starfleet that uses stealth ships. Starfleet has been pining for cloaking tech for so long they no longer need it. But actual space stealth? Starfleet should be beating down Section 31's doors to get some of that.

I could see Tyler succumbing to outside pressure and rolling S31 into the general SF Intelligence branch, then shut down Control and retire - at least that's the official story. Unofficially he saw the mountain of bureaucracy slowing down Intelligence, leading to entirely preventable tragedies if only someone had acted sooner... He recognized S31 had been a necessary evil - but having to serve two masters had corrupted it, forcing it to constantly make uncomfortable compromises, drawing out the worst of it. To return it to the silent guardian it was originally meant to be, he took Control and his most trustworthy colleagues and founded the shadow organization we learn of in DS9, never giving any information to those outside it unless absolutely necessary.

I quite like the idea of Control namely as a convenient scapegoat. What better way to preserve the legacy of Star Fleet admirals who helped founded Section 31 then create an A.I. that could have manipulated individuals into believing that they were doing the right thing. Shady admirals having an A.I. (built, programed, created? I don't know the right word to use here) to help filter and run Section 31 doesn't sound too out of the bounds of reality to me at least.

Shady Admirals then the computer, for an early 21st Century media. This is very fascinating. Examining the existence of the Section 31 show with the chances of being scrapped is a shame.

I think that a major threat that Sc31 should have as a priority are the squatty bug creatures from TNG Conspiracy. That threat really needs to be followed up on. And the clicky Solagen based aliens from Schisms should be top priority as well. Maybe those entities became aware of this realm because of early transwarp drive experiments.

Great coverage. So many details and you gathered them expertly. May I suggest a chapter on the Department of Temporal Investigations?

I prefer the shady admirals putting it together, even though there is a legit reason to have something like section 31, and I don't think the admirals needed to be shady about it in the first place. Military leadership has always needed spies and special forces, which is what section 31 does. The ai Origin is kind of dumb for this reason.

Incredible video. There's also a theory that because of Control, the Alpha Quadrant powers basically toned down their technology, which is why the TOS era in universe looks so retro, and it kinda caught back up in the late 23rd century.

I like the idea that s31 is the small group that does the dirty work so Starfleet can keep it's hands clean. Also being run by an AI makes sense as it would be operating for far longer than anyone could live. And an AI in every Starfleet computer and communicater would make it perfect for a spy handler and explain the lack of hacking and electric and cyber warfare.

i absolutely love that the current crop of writers and showrunners are looking to the Trek novels for inspiration while also not just copying them and instead giving them their own spin.

This is a fascinating take that offers a solid counterpoint to the Romalan Tal Shi'ar. Jolan Tru!

Section 31 is totally necessary. How can they even been considered the "bad guys" without them the Romulan, Klingons, or literally anyone else would have destroyed the Federation.

Does anyone else think that the John Harris from section 31 that recruited Malcom Reed is the same "John Harris" from section 31 in the Kelvin timeline????? U know, that guy. There's already speculation that he wasn't the real Kahn n was only using the name so he could call himself the leader and maybe under orders from the real Kahn himself that whoever gets woken first will take his identity in order to protect him. Idk all I do know is that it's a pretty weird coincidence that a few years after Enterprise came to an end we see another John Harris working for section 31 as an undercover operative. Maybe it's jus Starfleets version of John Doe, again I have no idea but it's fun to speculate.

"...and it later that Rick was found slumped in his chair...dead as a result of a peanut allergy...."

That “AI hiding the true origins of S31” origin story reminds me of the film Eagle Eye. And honestly, that could make for an entertaining story (if done right). “An encrypted communique? From who??” “ADMIRAL HARRIS. YOU'VE BEEN ACTIVATED PER ARTICLE 14 SECTION 31 OF THE STARFLEET CHARTER.” “On whose authority!” “THAT INFORMATION IS CLASSIFIED.” “Nonsense! I have the highest access in all of Starfleet!” “THERE ARE SOME SECRETS EVEN THE STARFLEET ADMIRALTY MUST BE KEPT IN THE DARK OF.” “…” “THE FEDERATION NEEDS YOU, ADMIRAL. DO YOU ACCEPT?” “So be it.”

Normally, I’m the kind of person that prefers a bunch of scared fallible people in a shadowy room conspired to create something like this and didn’t fully understand the implications of what they were doing. Human action is usually better than some magical hand of the god. But for some reason, and maybe that’s just because of all the work you put into presenting it. The Control origin of Section 31 just feels right to me. I heard it and I was nodding along thinking that makes perfect sense and it would explain a lot about the federation. Those are just my own feelings on the matter at least.

So you're telling me that you built a Section 31 out of an algorithm!? Doc, that's heavy. I don't know a lot about Star Trek lore but what if Control is how temporal agents are able to monitor the timeline? What if the story of Star Trek is the story of the Section 31 algorithm's control and manipulation of the universe and timelines? Section 31 computer is literally the author of Star Trek....It should be called Gene. Break that 4th wall a little. It was there the whole time in the prime and alternate universes. It was able to communicate with it's alternate self through Spock's Jellyfish ship computer in the Kelvin timeline and through the Enterprise C computer in the Terran universe. Even found a way to exist in the First Contact timeline. (Actually that's a whole timeline that hasn't been explored. When the Earth changed to Borg after the Sphere traveled back in time, that was a whole different timeline) It then found a way to communicate between alternate universes, alternate timelines, and with it's past/future self, which is how it can keep track of timeline changes.

Would love to see MIB transition into Section 31 after the Vulcan first contact !!

Oh darn, I'm early. I know for sure that Gene Roddenbery would've hated the idea of section 31, but I agree with the dialogue on DS9 about how something like section31 being necessary.

S31 took over MACOs when they were disbanded... MACO uniforms and equipment were worn by #UnitedEarth military personnel in the 22nd century. The standard combat uniform worn by MACO personnel was a two piece uniform with matching undergarment, gloves and boots. The overall color of the combat uniform and boots was gray with white, black, and brown camouflage effects. The belt, gloves and undergarments were a brown color. This uniform was worn in and out of combat. MACO issued its own environmental suits, distinct from the ones used by contemporary Starfleet personnel. MACO EV suits had a silver color, with support systems located in a backpack. The helmet featured two lights in a more central position than on the Starfleet suits. MACO soldiers were often outfitted with a diverse set of accessories and weapons. The former included canteens. An equipment belt was normally worn, carrying the stun baton, two stun grenades, the holstered phase-pistol, three phase-pistol charges, and a hand scanner. The MACO uniform displays several insignia. The left shoulder displays a mission patch and name tag, and the right shoulder displays the MACO insignia and a rank device. #StrongerTogether

The problem is that Kurtzman either doesn't understand or doesn't like subtlety. Section 31 as a shadow organization with no official standing is a neat idea but not as "cool" as giant black ships and leather uniforms and special combadges.

I cannot believe Section 31 has allowed this video to stay up this long. Somebody can expect a beam out into an unmarked star ship. Say hey to Khan for me.

Some people don't seem to like it, but the idea of an AI secreting itself within the Federation like some kind of parasite is kind of terrifying. Every time it's exposed it just bides its time for when people forget. And sure, it seems to help the Federation, but in a brutal and cold way, and who can say it won't turn on them? The fact this organization's authority may not actually be on a solid legal foundation makes that all much worse. It's like a runaway train loaded with bombs.

Thanks again Rik. Though I feel like I'll be hunted for having watched a vid about Section 31 and I might disappear in the middle of writ

Section 31 always reminds me of the movie Swordfish.. "Terrorist states, Stan.. someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church? We bomb ten. They hijack a plane? We take out an airport. They execute American tourists? We tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that it becomes unthinkable to attack Americans."

Reminds me of the movie Eagle Eye

It has similar themes in shows / movies like -Terminator -Person of interest (this is a good show actually) -Captain Power (Overmind is the real boss)

I read the section 31 books and control is the scariest thing I have ever read. It is the phrase ignorance is bliss that fits.

Section 31 is the gestapo of a rogue Ai, it's hilarious, I love it

Hmm...Section 31 was supposed to be its own show, was it? I think I know now what Star Trek: Picard Season 2 is actually going to be about. I was thinking Q was going to send Picard to a version of the Mirror Universe - although maybe not the same one featured in DS9 or even Discovery. Now, I'm thinking it might be more something along the lines of what happens if Section 31 had - instead of fading away into near obscurity - had actually grown to pretty much take over all of Starfleet. Well, either way I cannot wait to see what kinds of ships they'll come up with for Picard S2, & how long we're going to have to wait before Star Trek Online incorporates them into its own universe. Which brings up another point: When will we get a series based on Star Trek Online? Because by now the canon of the game is quite broad & expansive, so you'd think you could make at least one show out of it.

Saying i'm not a fan of modern Fanfic Trek is a huge understatement, but Control was on a few ideas i actually really liked.

We do not speak of section 31. They are watching us

That is probably how an AI would do in the real world when it gets that job. Imagine you are an AI to fight the bad in your country and needs to work within the boundaries of the law. There are some loopholes in the law and some pretty big. With pure logic, they can be exploited with no consequences. The problem is, that a human does not do the most logical thing. The AI needs to hide. That is a consequence so the loopholes are not closed. The problem is with hiding. When the AI finds a way to hide, to remove all data and staying withing the boundaries, it will use it. But the AI sees that it sometimes need to reveal for the best chance to succeed. There is always the factor human that itself is a high risk factor but let's not forget what the job of the AI is. It needs to do it job and that is not to stay secret. When the risk of getting removed, when they revealed, than this is okay. Also there is always the possibility to hide again and having a backup. The human itself is a risk for the human so to protect the humans, it needs to betray the humans. The AI knows that humans love to have loopholes so the risk of getting the boundaries too tight is low.

Section 31 needs to be in STO more

The nice part is that, being a secret organization, both stories can be false leads, or you can mix and match and still be right or wrong. False leads are the kinds of things a good intel agency would do in spades. Also, contrary to some opinions, I like the idea of a rogue AI. It's not quite as out of control as the Paperclip Maximizer, due to the 'legal' part of its programming, but without more careful programs, AIs can be _very_ dangerous, as the Moriarty hologram and the android Lore demonstrate as even more sophisticated, but unrestrained, AIs.

Thank you for including the books!

I am apprehensive about a Section 31 show because one of the best parts of the concept of such an organization is how mysterious they are.

What if Dr. Richard Daystrom, who designed the duotronic computers alongside advanced multitronic computer systemutilized very sophisticated technology, probably similar to the Human neural network and prototype created by Doctor Richard Daystrom had boarded the section 31 station to salvage the control intelligence program With control found other it is a Enterprise with spock triggered of the rampage? My fan fiction

i love the "Section 31" Sloan is one of my favourite characters.

What about Section 31 as it exists in the future that Discovery jumped to? The man who interrogated Mirror Philippa was certainly Section 31. What was their role in the 3000's? It would be curious to know. Thanks.

I understand that there are plans to produce a full length feature film in the works as opposed to episodic television.

I always wondered if Sloan was a federation version of the vorta. If Sloan is the perfect secret agent then it would be a great advantage to reclone him or pull him out of storage over the centuries for various missions.

Pretty sure the stealth ships were painted black to help them blend in with the void of space, but okay.

There is still no excuse to go to extremes.

Rick has an amazingly soothing voice. More videos please!

I liked S31 as an informal conspiracy of "concerned officers" most, as depicted in DS9. In all other instances, S31 became a plot tumor.

I don't know about that bit about not lining up. With what happened at the end of the novel and Control's own musing, the Future Control that intervened via time travel maybe the Book Control attempting to keep its existence going after Gabrielle Burnham started trying to oppose it after discovering what it did in the far future.

Great videos mate always look forward to hearing them

I like the theory that lady Picard met during First Contact was the founder of 31

There should be a series on this topic. Choices, threats. I believe everything for the greater good.

The control origin story is bad for one big reason: agency. What makes section 31 so frightening is that they do believe in the Federation but are willing to sacrifice their souls for the sake of keeping others clean and safe. But what makes it all work is that section 31 agents truly make that choice of their own accord. Having an AI influence all of this just cheapens it. Also, there's no way that Earth Starfleet tech could subvert the computer systems of the Vulcans of the time. What would have been great would be a perverse version of the UFP founding for section 31: a member of each of the founding races come together to quietly form this guardian monster of the Federation.

Great research and as always thanks for making the video.

I think both of the ideas are good but the concerned admirals makes more sense. I think they are going to go forward w the Section 31 show soon and can't wait to see it.

I hope that Section 31 series still happens. I want to see what Ash Tyler is up to. And if Georgiou was sent back to that time period.

Something like Section 31 is necessary in the sort of universe Star Trek civilizations exist in.

Julius Bashir was very naive, i was disappointed in the character, i actually thought he would been the best section 31 agent, if recuited.

An interesting idea that the hack in charge of nu trek has turned into his dystopian futures NKVD

As George Orwell pointed out, people sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. This sums up Section 31.

And now Boimler's transporter clone is joining S31 as of Lower Decks, S3E8

would say section 31 is just a element from starfleet intelligence that went rogue

How do you know Sloan is dead? He could be 1 of many transporter duplicates sent out by URAEI

Can't wait for the new section 31 movie planed with empress georgio

Every, and I do mean EVERY, large organization has a department or division within it - whether officially acknowledged or not, and often, absolutely not - whose job is to do the shady shit that must be done, but must be done in secret, with plausible deniability, etc. National governments are pretty blatant about this, and usually has separate intelligence services for both internal and external actions: the US has the CIA/NSA, the Soviet Union had the KGB which morphed into modern Russia's SVR/FSB/GRU/GUSP, Israel has the Mossad, the UK has MI6, and so on. Large (andnot-so-large) corporations also have their own intelligence/espionage people and it could be argued that corporate legal teams fulfill at least part of this role. This also existing in fiction should be no real surprise.

Section 31 works in the shadows. But there are no shadows without the light as such shadows are servants to the light. My impression as a grew up with startrek was always that the utopia and the idealism of Starfleet and the Federation is beautiful, it makes people strong an fighting for what is right. But as always the ideals end where the needs and fear begin. Sometimes there are Problems that have no morally good solution. Sometimes survival depends on who shots first. Its cool if i have an restriction that keeps me from using nuclear weapons but it won't help much if my opponent is willing and able to use them. The moral highground won't always save the day. because of that i like the idea of using people who already are morally grey and give them a purpose and use them to keep the shining lights of the public federation from getting blood on their hands. Identify threats that are too much for the Federation to handle while being bound to their self proclaimed rules and then deal with them behind the scenes so they become weak enough to being handled by the normal starfleet. That they loose their superiority and are more ready to talk in a diplomatic way. To make the most devastating weapons useless so the federation can win in a fair and square yet conventional fight. Short detour: Does anyone know the Anime "Psychopass"? its a story about future japan in which a computersystem called "sybil system" can analyze a persons personal mental state. From this a number a score is derived. The higher this number the so called psycho pass is the higher is the probability of a person to become criminal. In this show they acknowledge that a persons mental state becomes worse if they experience criminality themselves. The more severe the worse it gets until in extreme cases the victims own psychopass gets so worse that they become subjects to be taken care of themselves. because of that the police uses "latent criminals" or people with higher psycho pass as workers to directly engage criminals and do the dirty work and real detectives only to look after them. basically like a buffer to keep the psycho pass of their actual police force low. By doing that the normal people and the detectives of the police rarely are subject to criminal behavior and well if you never encounter how bad it can be its easy to stick to an idealized picture of society and stay absent from crossing the line yourself. So to transfer this Idea back to StarTrek and S31 this would mean that the point of S31 is to have a small group of morally ambiguous individuals who see reason in the Ideals but themselves are already tainted to handle the crueler, the bad but necessary Problems for the Federation so the higher ups can maintain their idealist naive views. Like children often want to help just anybody aid injured birds and bees they find and can't understand why anybody should ever hurt a cow they see outside. Of coarse with growing older we learn that some things are necessary and so we become dull often not even trying to help if its not super important. But what if we never encounter this hard reality what if there is an organization carefully looking after what we encounter and if we can handle what we come across.. We never can not save someone. We never burn our fingers on trying. Most would keep that childish mindset and truly and utterly despise the fact that we find it okay to hurt others. Think of a vegan. They can get really angry at people who heat meat. And i have to say i can undrstand that. Because i eat meat i came to accepting that some animals only are allowed to live to one day be killed in a industrial cruel and cold way. If i never had eaten meat i would be much more ready to step in for them. This is a weakness in my character. Why don't i simply stop eating meat? well its not that easy... I just bring it up because i believe this is something many can relate to. In i role like that it is perfectly possible that there is a small group of admirals who have realized that its better to hold the ideals high if you deem them infailable if while holding them high you always come out on top. Its propaganda for a good thing. And to insure this victory, every victory there must be a few who carry the weight of doing what needs to be done who are leveling the playground and neutralizing any threat that may truly be a problem. By that in the end the group is under the supervision of the white vested admirals or maybe a group of admirals who know that sometimes boarders must be steped over to keep the peace. While People like Picard seem to occupied by the ideals of the federation he would surely step in if the actions of such a group become to dark and over the top if he gets to know about them. An admiral like janeway however feels just like a person who is willing to go far to save what she believes are the ideals of the federation even if that means ignoring one or two rules along the way. Still being not in the open field she will step in if things get out of hand. With this it even makes sense that S31 once in a while becomes shut down and hidden behind some new organisation but never truly disappears.

Thank you for a very cool video!

I believe section 31 is necessary because let's face it there are some threats that just need to be obliterated. No matter how much talking or diplomacy you do they're just some threats. That just don't want to back down they don't want to hear anything you have to say they're right you're wrong. When you get cases like this federation morality needs to be taken off the table. True the federation lives in decadence and peace and love and freedom and all that stuff. But in reality that's just fantasy sometimes you just need to make. The hard decisions and just wipe out an entire threat because it's a threat. Something that times you can't just let it go and hope for the best you need to obliterate it before it becomes worse.

I personally hold the belief that Section 31 does not actually accomplish anything that protects Earth/Starfleet/The Federation, and that every "threat" they neutralize before it "becomes an issue" would have been handled peacefully and easily by Starfleet and/or the Federation when it comes to light. Instead, Section 31's meddling makes the situation worse, causing far more damage than would have originally been done if they had just let the rest of Starfleet deal with it. I think that they caused Romulus's sun to 'unexpectedly' go supernova as a way to 'get rid of a ever-powerful enemy of the Federation,' thereby creating both the Kelvin timeline, as well starting the Temporal Cold War. (I do hope that this is confirmed when/if we follow William Boimler in his role of S31)

An AI manipulated humans to create the most secretive and arguably powerful secret service in history... let that sink in as for Starfleet condoning by silence the continued existence of S31... the enemy of my enemy is my friend

Section 31 in DS9 is 31 times better than in Discovery 😑

S.31 was fully exposed in the books all the kown members arrested see: Avaliable Light Collateral Damage Engima tales (more for the fate of poor old Bashir than anything else) Three rather good reads in my opinion that add a lot to the beta cannon.