The Witnesses of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon 

Jesus brings final judgement

The gangs dont usualy work in that way in tourist areas as it brings way to much attention.. and wich criminal in their right mind is going to lett them keep their fones...make multiple emergency calls....then take picturs throughout the missing period...then leve that camera intact....for it to finaly get in the hands of the authorties..? Ther are however tribes that live in the jungles still who dont know much about modern tec....and use poison darts...depending on amount of poison and type it could slowly start shutting down the body over sevral days...and during the process cause serrious fear, houlucinations, disorentation, confusion and other behavior that may not seem normal... some of the locals will go out their way to protect these tribes from the modern western world and ways..and even wen knowing they exist will deny it to westerners.

It's not a war crime. There are no international courts for regular crimes.

Their parents and authorities Do not want to reopen the case that’s pretty much the reason why

@@zombiemanhasbe4119 Yea that makes sense and i completely understand it, it’d be nice to fully figure out what actually happened which will most likely never happen but i think we can all have an idea of what actually happened.

@@zombiemanhasbe4119 seems strange to me, for their parents to have purposely given up the search. I would rather say the dutch authorities do not have any time or resources to continue pursuing the case, and hiring private party / detectives would cost huge amounts of money, money that the girls' parents may unfortunately not have.

@@ergitab1123 The parents went through a living hell, and even eight years on the feelings are still too much. But I do believe that with the Kremers at least the need to know IS still there, in time I believe they will return to the search for the truth, and it is important to bear in mind here that in the last three years alone so very much new information and insight into the events of 2014 have been brought to light that it has reignited interest in what might well have just become another obscure holiday statistic.... When I first came to this story three to four years ago there was very little available to read on it, and the discussion was focused on that blurry photograph with 'something' that people claimed was a person at the bottom of a cliff! That was where the discussion was at at that time, purely because so little information was actually available. Then came the Jeremy Kryt investigation, and from there it inspired a whole new interest in these two young visitors to panama, and from that we were rapidly treated to a huge cache of photographs released from the camera, an in-depth breakdown on the phone logs, the book last year which relied on the original police Files for a wealth on new insight and information, we have had spectacular video recreations from Imperfectplan and Victor Hugo that have taken us into the previously near mythical wilderness past the mirador and allowed us to completely reassess what we thought we knew of that receding part of the trail, and even now Imperfectplan are releasing in-depth information about their visit to the area early this year, and again overturning several previous beliefs we had long held about that area.... The point at hand here is that this has gone from being a fading topic, to being picked up and re-examined by a great many interested and committed people. The Imperfectplan articles are second to none, they have now visited the area and examined it firsthand, a lot of what we thought we knew about that area is now being challenged and we can judge for ourselves whether Lisanne and Kris would have walked past the two streams, or over the meadow. And all of this allows us to look at that discovery in June 2014, look at how it was conducted and how the verdict of 'lost/accident' was arrived at, who declared that verdict and why, and just challenge the whole thinking and likelihood of it all. I think, hope really, that the Kremers at least will feel vindicated by all of this re-examination. They were holding to a suspicious and criminal reason from the start, but events overpowered them and they had to eventually accept the window was closing on them. Here in 2022 however a new wave of interest in the disappearance of their daughter and her friend is slowly chipping away at the original assessment by authorities at the time, and revealing the cracks in their argumentation...

This is why I think they actually know what really happened -that the Panamanian government told them and they have their closure. I know for fact that no mother would give up searching for answers unless they were given answers. And if they have closure/answers that is really the only people who should have them. My heart goes out to them-it’s heartbreaking to lose your child, much less in such a tragic way.

The skeletons would not be intact, this is rough terrain full of wild animals. If they ended up in the river which is almost certain the bodies would have broken up. No mystery, they were very naive and inexperienced hikers, they went astray, got lost and perished. Happens quite often, sadly.

No animal or natural circumstances caused this they must think people are stupid . I think was absolutely locals maybe even pillars of the community and it was absolutely covered up!

@@eioinmclove well silly since you say that they also said they're bones were bleached I'm guessing animals do that... Also did they come back to life and start using their own phones or did the animals use it? And if they went into the river and broken up how did they get back up to the ground where they were found ? Also if it was an animal how come one of the girls couldn't fight the animal off or run and get help I mean it could have been a group of animals but still why didn't they start screaming there's a bunch of locals and farmers around to hear them! Do you think the animals called 911 70 times? Which animal you think was using the phones trying to unlock them? You are the naive one if you believe natural circumstances or an animal did this ! I mean absolutely the animals could have got to it after the person/persons did what they did but why was they're no bite marks or scratch marks ?

Animals will scatter skeletons. Animals can do a lot of eating, dragging and scattering of carcasses.

Omg the names of those girls … thus hurt

You have no idea how powerful cartels are.

YES YOU ARE RIGHT .

That seems plausible, which explains why only pieces of the women were found sadly.

is the taxi driver dead?

Yes wild animals don't delete photos. They were abducted and murdered.

Yes, he did it or he participated.

Yeah I don't think Feliciano did it personally, because this case was a nightmare for tourism. He made his living off tourists, he's not going to kill them. But while that livelihood means he wasn't motivated to kill them, it also means he WAS motivated to cover it up. Especially if the killer was his son.

@@kennethmacalpin7655 Good thinking 👍

I seen a video of the search and the speed at which he found the shoe with the foot in it was truly remarkable,he must x-ray vision.mmmm

THEY WERENT WEAR THAT CLOTHES , I KNOW THAT, THAT WAS PHOTOSHOP , WHY THEY DELETED THE VIDEO FROM THE STORE?'

There were seen the girls accompanied by Henry Eliezer Gonzalez (Feliciano's son and also the boss of Los ND5) on the footage. Here is an interesting eye opener: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-pCaD8kRTwsI.html&ab_channel=Alternatetheories

The store's owner is a mother of Jorge Riviera Miranda (later found drowned in shallow river on 4th April 2015), who was suspected to have samething with Kris and Lisane missing. He was a member of a local gang La Banda "Los ND5". Watch for answers: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-pCaD8kRTwsI.html

Sloan bella posted a video about them that says that the locals are involved in this cover up. According to her this is a game of catch and kill. Which makes sense.

El Salvador has to maintain its reputation as a reliable and safe tourist destination, as so many young people and college age kids and young adults go there. This is probably why the government and police there are sticking to the story of that the 2 gals got lost and perished in the forest. That's their story, they're sticking to it, to maintain appearances. El Salvador is very reliant on the tourist industry, and they can't rock that boat.

Absoluty, but people still believe they got injured or lost and then called emergency. Ignoring the fact that never contacted locals or even used WhatsApp. Two girls in their 20s that didnt try to use WhatsApp is ridicioulus

Also @kevinafton5662, if the girls only got lost in the jungle, they would have already taken pictures over the course of the days, and they could have even recorded a farewell video.

They should have called a hundred times each.

Any normal person would spend the night playing Candy Crush until the battery died... Must be space aliens trafficking in human organs😂

@@dishdog215what an idiotic comment

no reaction made "asap"

@@iiLoveAutumn Perhaps he’s still figuring it out! What his reaction is.

@@InspektoraDeFrutas. Yes!

А что вам не понятно на счёт комнаты, когда девушки пропали там гид не один раз приходил и рылся в их вещах. Первый раз гид рылся когда девушки пропали, он сразу пришёл к ним в комнату. Второй раз его полиция отправила за документами, хотя они сами должны были произвести обыск. Гид очень подозрительный. Девушки исчезли а он у них в комнате роется, возможно он что то с фотографиями делал мы же не знаем. Но действия и поведение гида очень странное.

photoshop pics.. they never went to the mirador..

@@juliannfloress3490correct

Hi! Since you are from Panama, what do you think happened to the girls?

@@PassionForArtCollector hello! I have never been to the path there in Boquete, but I am almost sure it is not easy to get lost in the path. I and most people here believe that they unfortunately were murde*ed…. For instance, I used to live in Boquete and I saw many times when the indigenous people who come down from the mountain fighting until they start bleeding and the rest of the group of them just watching. Can you imagine two girls there in the forest? Alone? I never went to that path, not even with friends….. I mean, I do not think that the native did something to them, but what I try to tell you is how dangerous it could be. I believe that something scared them or followed them and they could not come back through the path because it would have not been hard to do so. There are so many weird things as the video from the store deleted, the picture from the camera deleted with a computer, the taxi driver (who took them to the path) found drowned one year later……

@@ronymanuel507 also the last guy interviewed looked quite nervous 26:15

So can you confirm if there are tribes out there ?

@@areevpsreal9545 yes! There are indigenous people who live there in the mountain in tribes….

good thinking

The timeline is correct. We need to watch what the witnesses who live by the trails reported. There were two possible trails. The girls went for a short hike of about 1 hour and decided to go back. A woman saw them coming back, and this was around 2h30pm. That's why Frank Rosa (the owner of the shop) said the girls seemed to have hiked already. Then the girls stayed there for a while and started a new hike, this time the Pianist trail. A woman who lives by the entrance of the Pianist trail did see the girls and was concerned because it was late to start that trail. But the woman pointed out she didn't speak english and did not say a word to the girls. This was already 4h00pm or later. In other words, the timeline of the girls itinerary is perfectly coherent up to their initial emergency calls.

@@andradas9688 this makes sense! Also for going for 1 hike they would probably be clever enough to not get there at 2 or 230 hang around for 1.5h and then start at 4. For a second shorter hike it makes more sense.

​@@tobiasobermayr501 correct, and that's another reason it is difficult to say they got lost, as some people still suggest. They started the second hike late and were wearing very light clothes. They did not plan to go too far. You enter a dense forest if you leave the trail. Obviously they were not going to do that. Why they didn't try to call other numbers, like the number of the place they were staying? Probably because they were taken by people but still managed to have their phones with them. But they couldn't really dial any number, only emergency. There were only a few attempts to call emergency. Even if your phone has no signal, if you are lost you are going to try to call emergency many times, including at night. That didn't happen. They were abducted by people with very bad intentions.

@@andradas9688 that's true!! Never thought of that. Some small logic can already almost rule out several things. They would have tried very regularly and walked places to find reception. They were clearly in big distress when they took all the photos. Are the night photos btw from the camera or phones? Phones would make sense hidden somewhere.

Thats what the parents also said.. you just sleep on the path till the next morning.. why would a newbie go off the path? When you know you risk your life? Even when i see a wild animal. I would still be on the path. I better stay on the path then panicing and run away. And when you do such trials. I would always take a knife with me. You never know who would harm you...

Sheer bs that's what it is.

What caused their death ?

Later on you are more specific, which is great. The variance in the witness accounts is truly baffling.

Although true. It is very difficult to show all the sources in this kind of format. Like I said before I had to simplify it some for RU-vid. If you what all the info read Scarlet R. blog. koudekaas.blogspot.com/2021/03/update-march-19th-2021_1.html

Wow!

There are time stamps on the photos, you know, and they place them on the summit around 1 pm. Around 4 pm, they made the first emergency call, whilst the witnesses claim they have seen them.

Yes I also believe this is a very viable explanation. What about all those photos obviously taken at the second trail though? Do you also believe they were photoshopped, like Juan?

@@InspektoraDeFrutas. At first I didn't think so, but the EXIF-data is so messed up and Juan makes valid points about the time between some photo's, that I changed my mind. Yes, the weird pictures are photoshopped. Someone wanted to tell a story about the girls being lost on the Pianista Trail.

@@Kanarie1973 I don’t know, sometimes it kind of seems too far of a stretch for them to have Photoshopped the photos! Do you really think those people have such advanced Photoshop skills and computers etc.? Somehow that seems doubtful. Actually I came across this theory and it seems very viable: They were *5 men* who were involved. (Called “Gang Sinco”) Four of them are dead now. The fifth one is the tour guide’s son. I have their names, but it’s too long to type. But all this info is available In others’ pages, who have been doing their investigations... *The girls were seen back in town* after they came back from the trail❗️🚨 So the “got lost, got injured, died of starvation“ option already fell away for good. The tour guide’s son drove them back to the guest house to pick up their swimsuits, after which they went swimming with these 5 UNFAMILIAR MEN! 😳 *Zero wisdom and foresight* on the women’s part. Obviously, the men tried to have sex with them there, and that’s where things went wrong, because obviously the girls refused. There was a woman who testified to all of this, she dated one of these mafia men. She said that after the girls were raped and held captive, they were *organ-harvested* and then the remains were scattered throughout the jungle to cover up the tracks… She told this story, then fled the country and found asylum in Costa Rica.

@@InspektoraDeFrutas. I'm happy to believe the photos were renamed, rearranged and deleted. But actually photoshopped? It's too far-fetched. I doubt this gang of local gangbanger creeps are photoshop experts. The theory is one of them is Feliciano's son and he covered for his son, but I don't believe Feliciano is a photoshop expert either. So did they hire one? I doubt they'd have the money and that would be a huge risk getting someone independent involved. That leaves corrupt police. Yes I'm sure corrupt police could hire a photoshop expert, but would they really go to all that trouble and risk?

congrats!

@@PassionForArtCollectorThey went missing on the 1st, when there was a single attempted emergency call from each girl's phone followed by 14 hours switch off of both phones. The totality of the evidence shows unlikely occurrences pilling up to a mountainous degree until the very fishy the finding of evidence that exculpates a suspect by none other than the very same suspect. That exculpatory evidence shows signs of being staged to mislead? Yes, the phone and camera does. There is an absence of evidence of the girls frantically making calls. No immediate retries of any call attempt, a 14 hour gap the first night (like they were turning in for an early night in a strange jungle), a 22 hour gap the second night. and no attempted calls whatever after the third day. The 'night photos' do not make much sense, but most killers are none too bright, and that includes those who escape justice. It is a forest, you cannot keep cattle in a jungle. According to a tourist, he and his wife were told by a local it was inadvisable to go on the trail the morning after (before the girls had been reported missing) because farmers living around the trail had heard screams in the area during the night. Another ten nights with one of them still alive and operating a phone supposedly. To last tens days you would have to start pretty strong, and surely could scream more that one night did they both start hallucinating after 24 hours? Bear in mind that during the day locals are going about their business along little paths that crisscross the area. Calls early on the day they disappeared to F may by the girls or Eileen actin on their behalf have enabled out friend to discern where they were going on the hike and to waylay them. There is an absence of evidence of the girls frantically making calls; no immediate retries of any call attempt, a 14 hour gap the first night (like they were turning in for an early night in a strange jungle), a 22 hour gap the second night. and no attempted calls whatever after the third day, although the night photos were on the 8th and one phone was being switched on on the 11th. If a double accident, it's one with a unique lack of evidence for it being so. Two young women just disappear. Their remains get found by a suspect, but their cause of death is impossible to determine because there are only fragments of the skeletons found, and the phone logs show they at least one was alive while people were combing the area calling for them. And the phone and camera turn up at almost the same place as the bones. Between the 2nd and the 3rd Froons's phone was left on for 15 hours, that is why its battery was dead on the 4th. No texts composed and no video message plus an absence of evidence of the girls frantically making calls on the first day as they surely would have, the battery of Lisanne's phone was not run down by the end; hardly an indication it was Kris or Lisanne using it. Consider, them giving up trying to make any calls after three days and going over a week without making an attempted emergency call although the phone was being used by someone. What is brought forward as evidence of no foul play in this case does not stand up as what it seems to be when you look more closely. Him, by his own account while on the trail with Kris's parents, hang chose the correct trail to go looking for them on the 3rd, and the fibs to cops about Eileen having enlightened him about that, permit a powerful adverse inference. A _F_ather and son team of guides feeling secure in the area they know better than anyone and closer than any gang members could be? You betcha

@@PassionForArtCollector Kris's family are good people, and all the better for not being quick to see the bad in anyone, including Panamanians. However, there simply are no precedents for what the parents _apparently_ believe to have happened (two young optimistic physically fit girls disappearing and being inside the search area for days without calling and the remains being in a condition that made establishing a cause of death impossible). The phones and camera turning up are like a found footage horror movie, but when did such a thing actually occur? Guides would know about phone reception areas, and this particular one had told journalists he met Kris and Lisanne, which he now denies. The Kryt articles note that he was absent from the early searches, but he was incredibly successful just as soon as Kris's parents paid him and upped the reward. And by the way Kris's father is dubious about our freind's supposed arrangements with the girls as that would be a lot of trips. The most salient facts are that the phone call from Eileen enquiring if he was available for an unplanned trip may have let him surmise where they might be hours later, and he knew there was no phone reception down there, thereby making a lost deception to explain their deaths a practicable proposition. Lo and behold people associated with him find the backpack, and then he finds the first remains and first clothing/footwear. He found one boot of each girl within 48 hours, and was there when Kris's pelvic fragment was -planted- found.

@@PassionForArtCollectorIf it was not F & son it was absolutely an accident. Jeremy Kryt found the people in Boquete (apart from the authorities) were saying it was F, who by the way has a certain reputation among tourist businesses that had caused him to be backlisted by agencies and refused entry to hotels. The news is full of the eco campaigner and British reporters being murdered in a remote area by their guide and his brother. Panama does not have police force or an army it has a multi role paramilitary force with little expertise in investigatory detective work. As the old saw has it ' jack of all trades master of none'. Panama did not want to know, so the persons of interest were not bounced around the police station, which is the normal procedure, even in places like Italy when there is the amount of circumstantial evidence against them that there is for you know who. To say it was a crime by anyone else is the very wildest of speculations.

@@PassionForArtCollector One can be passionate about things other than art.

@@seancidy6008 Indeed, but it becomes very unclear when somebody just randomly rambles around and does not react on the given content-related responses.

The photos have been re-arranged, the order is suspect. You mention the bracelets, I would also draw your attention to the backpack, and their hairstyles.

Guia F. Y familiares tienen propiedades en el área de Alto Romero, ademas son empleadores allí; es clara su influencia sobre la comunidad índigena que vive en la zona. Escucha los audios de "lost in Panamá", hay muchos datos interesantes como este.

I used to be a believer in the lost theorie But after hearing al these testimonies The very doable walkthrough of the Pianista trail and this video I do believe that a third party is responsible for the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne

Ok but how people from an indigenous tribe knew how to delete photo(509)...beacause to be definetily deleted it need to be done by plugging to a computer

@@apostolospapachristos2287 Panama’s government could have done this, and here is some motivation for them to do so; “Around 90% of Panama’s yearly gross national income comes directly from tourism.” Knowing this would a national government want a story to go around in which there are some raping, murdering, torturing, kidnapping, and possibly satanic indigenous tribes that capture tourists from the the jungle?

@@PassionForArtCollector ok you are right... but why some bones of the girls was found (what about the others ) and what about the skin? Also why the bag didnt had any damage and why the items were found there?

@@apostolospapachristos2287 This is al speculation of course, but the various unidentified bones could have been from other victims, they could even been from local cartels that walk around between Panama and Costa Rica. The roll of skin has been proven to be from an animal, I thought from a cow. A possibility for the backpack to be in perfect shape could have been because people from the tribe confiscated it while capturing the girls.

I would not have been a call. I would have been through one of her apps she used. Most likely through whats app.

@@BackpackerCoach Hey there! Do you also believe then (just like Juan) that the photos from the la pianista trail were photoshopped? That’s the only explanation which would make it possible that they didn’t go to the second trail that afternoon. Because there are in fact tons of photos of the girls taken there, whether photoshopped or real.

yeah, as many theories as there are, the girls going hiking at 4:30 in a jungle seems ridiculous. to me, it seems as though either the girls began their hike at 11:00 - 1:00 (which would discount all the witnesses testimonies who stated they were ascending the trail, rather than returning), or they did not go hiking at all (which would mean all the photos were staged to make it look like they did). something about this case just has me wrapped up in it though. trying to figure out everything, even though there isn't enough information available to solve it.

@@thestoryperson4926 Yes I totally agree with you. There are too many shady areas, and too many coverups, and because we’re not there personally and the corrupt police has never been truly willing to cooperate and solve this case, I have made my peace with the fact that no human being will get to the truth of the story until this world is over and everything comes to light! The fact that 4 men are already dead and the 5th one disappeared this year, who lost saw the girls and took them swimming that evening, tells me everything I needed to know! I have already made my conclusion, but the details we won’t know until later. So, until then, I have left it alone, because I have spent too many hours on it a few weeks ago already. To no avail. May the souls of the poor unwise girls rest in peace, and may their families find peace and comfort, until everything is found out. Be blessed! 👋💐

@@InspektoraDeFrutas. yeah, well said. i've been looking at this case off and on for a few years, and a ton of hours into it as well. hoping for fresh info at some point, but you're probably right. not gonna get enough

@@thestoryperson4926 Check out the YT channel alternate theories. Everything has already been solved and it’s known who did it and how! May the families have peace.

Yeah, that old lady with that pink hat told total crap, checking back the weather on that day, it was sunny and light clouds

Wow ! This is the first time I heard '' Lisanne's father now knows what happened '' and had to sign secret agreement with the Dutch Govt. I always believe there were too many inconsistencies and unexplained findings in the ' lost ' theory. Particularly the fact that Kris and Lisanne each made only one emergency call on the first day of their agony. That is absolutely unreasonable under any circumstances. thank you 📲

No other hiker or hikers have said they met or talked with Kris and Lisanne at anywhere along the trail at anytime. This was strange because april 1 was a sunny day 🌞

Very Nixonian and Clintonesque.

So true.

So sure.

The problem with this theory is the images on the camera

​@@zane___k7333 i saw your message on the other video. Was the mother of the gang member interviewed again? If her son did say the girls were killed, her statement should be made public and more people should talk to her.

@@zane___k7333 since you are commenting on the case, i have pointed out that I see an eye staring at the camera in the photo of Kris' hair. It is as if Lisane was holding the camera and took a selfie, with the body of Kris on her arms. It could be someone else taking the picture as well. More people have pointed out the eye on the left of the picture years ago.

@andradas9688 firstly panama isn't the United States. Or europe. If we create a basic model based on what happened taking into account human behaviour, the mothers story matches up. The mysterious deaths of all the people who had first hand contact with the girls. It adds up. These girls were 21. Beautiful. European. I believe they are friendly with the guy whose picture they can be seen with, in the river. The authorities have said the images aren't of the girls but have never said how they knew that. I believe the main guide is covering up. I believe one guy got jealous of these two beautiful girls choosing to spend time with osman. In order to be in the river with them, they'd have to have some level of trust. I believe like the mother said, they were invited to a party where another jealous man, possibly the son of the guide, made advances. I believe the girls rejected. The advances. I believe the guy got angry and lashed out. Then his father, the guide, decided to step in. I found it strange how the guide was always involved in the investigation. From my observation, when people are really close to a case which they aren't directly connected to. Typically, they are trying to steer the direction. Also, he was the person who found all the bones. Also i found it interesting how proactive he was when the girls didn't turn up to his tour. Visiting their rooms, etc.. i thought that was a little odd. Things like this happen in plsces like india. So , by observing the human aspect, we can create a model. I do believe the images were faked. I believe they wanted to sleep with the girls. The girls refused. They got angry. One thing led to another. Tried burying it. Which explains chemical decomposition. I think deep down most people know this isn't an accident. But i think people are focusing a lot on the evidence. For example, witnesses said they were picked up by a red car. Yet i haven't heard any connection or search for such. Also, they have camera evidence of then in a shop, yet the police "accidentally" deleted it. There are too many inconsistencies.

@andradas9688 The day the girls went missing. The images have them as reaching the summit at 11:30.. so the girls hike twice. Once on march 31st and another at the first. The reason is. Like many witnesses said. The weather was not very good. However in the images we can see a bright sunny day. So that tells us they attempt it. However the weather was not very well and returned, which lines up with a lot of what the witness has said.. Which is why witnesses have said it's was impossible to make the treck in such a short time. As the photographic evidence has shown the weather was very clear on that day.

Because the pictures were photoshopped.

08 am is too early for a hike , but if you pay attention one of the Witnesses ( the old woman ) said it was too late when the girls started the hike , that´s weird to me

Yes. Around 11:30