This part of BG3 makes no sense 

Use code FIREBALL50 to get 50% off your first Factor box at bit.ly/3ZtZRYX!

I feel like Zariel taking an entire city full of innocents just because a few of them betrayed her shows that her grasp on her old morallity is pretty much eroded away or gone entirely.

The biggest plot hole is that Ice Devils are actually immune to fire, making them very unafraid of infernos.

My biggest complaint with Karlach is that we can't just go live with Hope together

On Karlach being sold: It’s very much shown by both mizora and Raphael that while they don’t outright lie about their deals, they have no problem being tricky or having other people trick her. My idea is that gortash tricked karlach into saying yes to something that was actually a secondary contract and then got her conscripted, but she trusted him so much she just let it happen.

They made it clear that Zariel needed a test subject for her engine, AND had been working to steal from other Archdukes in the hells. And while it's never explicit, Karlach was young, inexperienced, and trusting; Gortash could very easily have gotten her to offer herself without realizing it.

If I understand it correctly, Gortash didn't just sell Karlach to Zariel, he sold A LOT of people. He put on an ad looking for sellswords, but it was a trick and sold every single person who showed up to Zariel. Now, if Gortash just showed up with a single tiefling, Zariel would probably tell him to f off, but a bunch of soldiers? I can see that.

A few thoughts occurred to me while watching this video: 1) It seemed emphasized in my playthroughs that Gortash sold Karlach's *heart*, not just Karlach. This makes it seem like Karlach was sold to Zariel as more of a novel test subject for experiments with infernal machinery, rather than a conscript. Karlach talks about how she had a mechanic in Avernus who tweaked and modified her engine. We also gain more insight on what the engine is from Karlach's talks with Dammon. This emphasis on Karlach's infernal engine heart rather than her battle prowess makes me think Zariel was more interested in seeing if she could make some kind of infernal super soldiers rather than just mass conscription. This would also explain a bit better why Zariel wants Karlach back. 2) As for how Gortash pulled off the deal and what he got out of it, it seems likely to me that he could've made contact with Zariel through the diabolist Helsik. The Raphael connection could have had something to do with it as well. Gortash is also the Chosen of Bane, so it makes sense that he's a pretty powerful negotiator. I think he sold Karlach and in return procured the infernal iron he needed to build the Steel Watch. It's possible Gortash benefitted from the deal much more than Zariel did, and he simply got away with it by having a silver tongue. I mean, you could outsmart the likes of Mizora and Raphael, so the idea of Bane's Chosen swindling Zariel out of some infernal iron doesn't seemed too far-fetched to me. 3) I think Larian might have taken some creative liberties with their interpretation of Zariel's character, but Karlach also explains that she just really hates Avernus as a whole, more than only Zariel. Karlach talks frequently about how she felt really lonely there. Zariel treated her as little more than an attack dog. You can learn about Karlach's relations with Mizora, Flo, and some of the other cambions, and all things considered Karlach just felt like she didn't have anyone she could trust. Between that loneliness and the violent chaos of the Blood War, it sounds like Karlach's hatred for Zariel is compounded with her hatred for the entire layer of Avernus. So from Karlach's perspective it's like a combination of "Zariel is a villain" and "Avernus is a sh*thole". Bad associations all around. 4) The writing for it does seem kind of unfinished, but the theme of Gortash selling Karlach to Zariel as a mirror of his own parents selling him to Raphael would make a lot of sense in BG3. "Cycles of abuse" seems like a recurring theme in the game. Consider the messed up family dynamics of the Bhaalspawn and how it plays into the Durge storyline. And in Cazador's dungeon, you can find the skull of Vellioth, Cazador's master who was just as abusive to him as he is to Astarion. To some extent I would also argue that Viconia's treatment of Shadowheart went a little beyond standard Sharran dogma, but that might just be speculation. I'm basically trying to say that I think the Gortash-Zariel deal was written to help Karlach's story line up more thematically with some of the other characters.

ON ZARIEL 9:50 "It seems so out of character to me that Zariel would just conscript random people into her army that she has no connection to or hasn't made a contract with or anything." In "Descent into Avernus," (referenced as DiA further) Zariel has made deals with Thavius Kreeg that binds himself and anyone who swears to protect Elturel (something all citizens must do) to her. Are these not "random people" that she "hasn't made a contract with?" The book states that Zariel seeks to use the people of Elturel as fodder in the Blood War. There's the angle that she's just doing this to Elturel because of her history with the city, but DiA says that Baldur's Gate is next on the list if she can help it. 11:44 "In my understanding of this character she doesn't conscript every living soul into her cause. Would she? Yes. If they came offering." I don't think the people of Elturel came offering. 17:36 _In which the background of DiA is stated._ Glad I decided to watch the whole thing before posting, because this part has me confused. So is Zariel's contract collection of Elturel and it's citizens (who's only crime is being tricked by Kreeg into swearing an oath to protect the city meaning Zariel owns them) out of character or not? You seem to have no particular issue with that in this part. Because over 100 years ago some of the Hellriders betrayed Zariel and left her for dead in Hell, she has the devilish right to the entire city's population? 11:15 "I can totally see this could be an interpretation of Zariel's character where she's become desperate and that fighting the Blood War is all that she's good for." I think it's more to the point that Zariel wants to _win_ the Blood War, rather than fight it forever, like you said at 11:57. ON DEVILS 12:00 "The issue here is that contacting a devil, even for a contract, is not an easy thing to do." Correct, contacting a devil can be difficult. That's why devils normally come to you. If you cry out to the world hard enough and the gods don't answer, a devil will. See the people in the Soul Coins that the bugbear merchant in Moonrise Towers gives to Karlach, see Thavius Kreeg in DiA, etc. ON GORTASH AND KARLACH 14:29 "You can't just send someone off to be conscripted by a devil." Correct. Karlach is _sold_ to Zariel in exchange for something. She makes it fairly clear. What that something is, well... You are right that we don't know the specifics of what Gortash gained out of his deal with Zariel. Most people assume it has something to do with the infernal engine, it could've been a collaborative project between the two, making better engines for infernal machinery and Steel Watchers, maybe Gortash would send a battalion down to Hell after he and the other Chosen Bad Ended the Sword Coast. Maybe Gortash sold Zariel on the idea of a suped up infernal engine powered soldier and this was what she was going to do with all the people of Elturel. Could've had something to do with all the infernal metal that Gortash seems to have lying around to make into infernal engines for the Steel Watch and weapons for his Baneites and arms smuggling business. It is unfortunately just speculation when it comes to what Gortash gained from handing over Karlach. Numerous times in the video you make mention of Zariel wanting Karlach dead, but that's a little if-y. We know Mizora wants her dead, and the fake paladins of Tyr will accept her head, but if you bring Karlach to the paladins to confront them and out their secret, Anders says that Zariel wants Karlach back. Karlach's whole thing about not going back to Avernus is because she's afraid of what Zariel will put her back into her service and/or kill her. Karlach doesn't know, she's terrified of going back. ON OTHER STUFF 16:35 Mizora is a cambion, according to the wiki, so she wouldn't have started as a lemure. ON THE PART THAT MAKES NO SENSE So as I understand it, the part that makes no sense is that Gortash sells Karlach to Zariel for something the game doesn't outright state, which doesn't make sense to you, because why would Zariel want some rando to conscript to fight in the Blood War, because Zariel doesn't conscript randos to fight in the Blood War? Right? I very well could be misinterpreting. I mean, as per DiA, she seems perfectly content with conscripting randos to fight in the blood war, see every citizen of Elturel via her contract with Kreeg, DiA says she'd do it to other cities like Baldur's Gate as well. But I do agree that the Gortash Contract part is a rather annoying issue. I don't think it doesn't make any sense, but it 's unfortunate that the players have to fill in the blanks on what exactly the deal was. What made Karlach so appealing to Zariel? We simply don't know. That was a bit rambly, I apologize. I just noticed your take on Zariel clashing with how she's written in DiA and it just spiraled out of control. Best of luck with "Descend!"

My biggest complaint with Gortash is that you can’t use ilithid powers to make Duke Ravenguard chop his head off which is a huge missed opportunity

I always assumed Gortash got infernal iron from selling Karlach. Maybe he sold her a bunch of people in order to get the materials for the steel watch.

on top of what people said about Gortash selling many people to Zariel for her infernal engine experiments, not just Karlach, we also know *how* he got in contact with her. He went through Helsik, a well known diabolist and servant of Mammon who specializes in getting people in contact with devils so they can make deals. she's an established and well known fixer among devils so it wouldnt be crazy to assume she could get in contact with Zariel.

Mizora is a cambion and as such exists outside of the normal hierarchy of the Hells. She presumably didn't start as a lemure

if Baldurs Gate 3 is so good why isn’t there a Hairurs Gate 3

I feel like the bit where xariel pulls an entire city full of innocent people into hell is where your idea of "she would only takes the willing falls apart". She is a devil which means she is bound by rules but she also never presented as particularly strategic or well put together. She probably doesn't pay particularly close attention to how her underlings get her people for the blood war and no matter how they got there she would never accept desertion. All of that stuff probably went through like 10 layers worth of guys. Edit: I want to additionally note that given the fact that Gortash was basically raised by a devil the idea that he tricked his golden retriever body guard into giving him her soul isn't that far fetched. And once he has that he has every right under the laws of the hells to sell it to who ever he likes.

So a few things that you brought up in the video that I'd wanna point out as to how this actually does make sense. 1. In descent into Avernus we know that Zariel is planning on dragging the city of Baldur's Gate into the hells just like Elturel was. She has the Vanthampur trying to shatter all confidence in the flaming fist as a part of this plan. "Thalamra is paying the Dead Three to shatter confidence in the Flaming Fist so that all payments to the decapitated organization can be cut off. Thalamra, a devout disciple of the archdevil Zariel, has brokered a deal that will enable her to claim the role of grand duke once the Flaming Fist disbands, paving the way for the city’s descent into Avernus." In the game the Steel Watch is slowly taking over and replacing the fist. So with all this in mind its apart of a another longer form way of weakening and getting rid of them. This works alongside Gortash's plan and what alot of people in the city tell you as the popular belief by several npcs in game is that with the steel watch working so well the fist is not going to be needed anymore. Now with the fist gone and the only defence of the city being an army of robots powered by the hells it makes the city easy pickings when dragged in. In the iron throne mission there is a note that's from Gortash about contacting a devil for assistance with the steel watch's construction. I'd find it hard to believe that Zariel isn't having some kind of plan prepared so that when the city is dragged into the hells that the steel watch become useless in the protection of the city allowing for her forces to drag it in quicker and cut down what little defences are left. Now you may say that Thalamra Vanthampur is typically killed in the descent into avernus module which is a fair point but in canon to the game we don't know her fate. In the dnd comic "Infernal Tides" (which is the canon version for what happens in the descent of Elturel in game) the Vanthampur family never shows up in it and are left out all together. In the game only one member of the Vanthampur is ever mentioned and it's on a grave stone in the city and it's not even one of the members in the adventure. So as far as we are aware that plan could still be happening in the background of everything. But the deal between Zariel and Gortash happens 10 years before the game and the descent happens very close to the start of the game so the deal could be apart of Zariel's long term goal of dragging the city into the hells and helping Thalamra weaken the fist. 2. As to why Karlach was sold to Zariel and how that even works, I think it's pretty straight forward especially when you use descent into avernus as the example. When Zariel claims the city and drags it into the hells she also claims all who have made an oath to the city thanks to the contract she has with Thavius Kreeg the High Overseer of Elturel. To quote the contract "In my capacity as High Overseer of Elturel and its vassal territories, I acknowledge that all lands falling under the light of the Companion are forfeit to Zariel. All persons bound by oath to defend Elturel are also considered forfeit." It wouldn't have been hard for Gortash to get such an oath out of Karlach as she herself says that she was incredibly naive and trusting of Gortash back then. This would allow Gortash to give her to Zariel without her consent as neither of them need it. Now as to the why she was sold that comes down to Zariel wanting test subjects for the infernal engine to strengthen her forces in the blood war. Karlach mentions that she was the only surviving test subject saying the others burned up. Now this is exactly what Zariel would want a mortal for especially one that could fight. I'd imagine that other subjects involved devils at some point but if it's killing them when testing it that's too big a risk. When a devil dies in the hells they are gone for good and when Zariel needs all the forces she can get against the endless hordes of the abyss thats something you don't want to waste your own people on. A mortal test subject is perfect as should it die their soul (if owned) can be claimed and sent straight to becoming a lemure and joining her forces. It allows Zariel to test a new way of strengthening her army while losing nothing but a couple of mortals she got as a bonus on deals and will get back in the form of low ranking devils that can rank up. 4. As to how Gortash could get in contact with Zariel thats a easy one. We know in the house of hope there's a scheduled visit from a Verillius Receptor, a High Inquisitor of Zariel who has official permission to audit Raphael's collection. Gortash would have absolutely seen this person before when he was in the house or someone like them and could use a sending scroll to contact them. Also as someone who was looking for more power over the city back then, Zariel could have been interested as well as he could prove to be a useful pawn in her plans for the city just like the Vanthampur family was. 5. Not as important but Mizora was never a lower devil like a lemure or even an imp. She is a Cambion which is a direct off spring of a fiend and humanoid. She only grew in power in the same form like a child becoming an adult and I'd guess she was raised in the hells and rose to power there like the examples mentioned in the monster manual. "Cambions raised in the Nine Hells serve as soldiers, envoys, and personal attendants to greater devils." Now with all this in mind I do think that there should have been more in game references to it like you said. It's not fully explained what the deal that Gortash made was but we can infer alot. But with everything that's going on in the game already it might have been abit too much to hint that city is gonna get dragged into the hells or that there is a plan in motion for it. But overall I do think it makes sense it just need more explaining in game.

In Baldur’s Gate: Descent into Avernus, Zariel literally hatches a pact 50 years in the making to conscript the entire populace of Elturel as new soldiers for the Blood War. It makes complete sense to me that Zariel would make deals to get new soldiers on the front lines of the Blood War, especially with someone as duplicitous and ambitious as Enver Gortash.

There’s actually a line of dialogue that specifically denotes karlachs machine as an ancient or very early prototype of the steel watcher hearts. My conclusion from that was that Gortash and Zariel worked together to create the infernal machine and Karlach was an early test subject. Zariel gets strong soldiers and Gortash gets to create the steel watch so that is most likely the circumstances of the deal that was hinted at but not explicitly stated because we missed out on the upper city.

I was with you until you said "Contacting a devil for a contract is not an easy thing to do." The 3rd Edition book "Fiendish Codex II" points out devils scour the land looking for people to make pacts. They hang out at temples, haunted places, forts, even waiting at crossroads at night. Selling your soul to hell is easy. And they try to make it as easy and as comfortable as possible.

Here's a theory: Maybe originally gortash simply contacted Zariel to start making a deal for some infernal iron and infernal engine designs for his steel watch idea. Then, with Karlach being his bodyguard, she was also there. With Karlach's good guy disposition and general irreverence she might've shown severe disrespect towards an Archduke of hell. Consider how tieflings are often super discriminated against because of their appearance so she might've started with a deep resentment for anything hell related beyond it simply being "the big tricky evil place". SO karlach scoffs or something during the negotiations and Zariel, being shown to be a very proud and quite frankly rash individual, flips her cool. Zariel then tells gortash: "New deal. I'll give you what you want, but you give me that sassy tief so i can teach it some manners". While I don't think that devils would just be able to establish pacts with unwilling creatures (especially the devils that used to have good intentions. Although in the campaign descent into avernus zariel kind of needs to be reminded of her once good intentions so keep that in mind. Devils might just lose sight of what they once stood for.) Perhaps they can still negotiate for slavery stuff. My headcanon is that zariel took offense and then put the engine in karlach as sort of a "demonstration" and "reminder" to others that might challenge her authority in the future. Karlach could join the list of reasons not to fuck with Zariel as a cautionary tale of "if you talk shit, you might just get get hit... With an infernal engine and thrown at the demon horde" Thank you for listening to my ted talk. I hope you enjoyed reading this comment as much as I enjoyed writing it.

To answer your question, Gortash sold Karlach to Zariel in exchange for the knowledge on how to build the Steel Watch. We know that Gortash has to have had a lot of experience with devils, because he and the Dark Urge infiltrated Mephistopheles’s level of the Nine Hells to steal the Crown of Karsus.

imo zariel took up gortash's shit because karlach's engine is the prototype for the watchers, she sees the potential for a bunch of mindless automatons as the potential for more armies to fight in the blood war. Gortash starts building steel watchers, sends some of them to zariel, and over time zariel gets a giant robot army

Yeah, the bits about Zariel was a bit head scratching. But then again didnt Zariel try to forcefully conscript the entire city of Elturel in Descent into Avernus? Literally the adventure module that preceeds BG3?

What I do want to add is that there is a tidbit about how karlach seemed to be the one who could survive the infernal machine. Which leads me to believe that zariel was trying that out herself and was failing and Gortadh provided karlach due to his assurance that she would make it

My party just finished the DiA module and I had Zariel try to recruit the party. The idea being, devils that die in Baator are gone, demons that die in Baator come back to fight again. She took Elturel as a means of getting two things: a sudden influx of troops to support pushing the front line into the Abyss where demons could actually die and to attract the inevitable powerful heroes who could act as generals or special forces, targeting specific demon lords. They absolutely didn't go for it and killed her ass, but I thought the justification made sense with her story lol.

If you "lose" parts of Descent into Avernus, Zariel actually takes in the party as her lap dogs. I do partly agree with you but she isn't above using others for her own interests. She is evil and was tainted by the hells and asmodeus. I have run the module 4 times and do think she is an amazing villain but overall despite the potential redemption she is a big evil lady. It does seem like your take mostly comes from when she was an angel

It is said in the game that Zariel was looking for someone to test her Infernal Machine, so her end of the deal was getting a guinea pig on her project to get stronger fighters to fight in her war. Gortash reached out and offered Karlach because he 'heard' she was looking for someone who could survive it

For me the biggest plot hole in the story is the entire setup of Ketheric’s boss fight: Ketheric: “hey two other chosen, the group of very strong and capable adventurers wielding the only item that’s able to destroy our entire plan and everything we’ve worked towards are right here! They’re in the center of our base with our army nearby and our elder brain right here, where we have a massive upper hand!” Orin: “Okay, you handle them all by yourself, even though my entire thing is that I love more than anything else to kill people whenever I have the chance. Oh and by the way your easily freeable now repossessed source of immortality is literally right in plain sight of the adventurers who have already proven that they are capable of freeing. Gortash: “You totally got this even though they beat you literally right before this! we’ll leave and take the entire army and this all-powerful netherbrain with us, even though Orin will become completely unmanageable without your help and them getting possession of your stone would cause us to potentially lose control of everything” This scene is only dumber if dame Aylin is dead and/or your playing as the dark urge

did you forget about that time zariel conscripted the people of eltural to fight in the blood war using the creed resolute

Zairel took an entire city because she was desperate for troops. I’m sure she’d take conscripts too

"It seems so out of character to me that Zariel would conscript RANDOM PEOPLE" Warlocks, Flaming Fist, The Avernician Cult, and the entire city of Elturel: ARE WE A JOKE TO YOU? Lmao. But for real tho, thats KINDA HER THING

Just a commenting on the cannon lore: Zariel is an arch devil and has been for a while. She has had to provide a payment of souls to Asmodius as part of her tribute to him or lose rank and power. She has been buying, selling, trading, and cheating mortal souls for thousands of years in this time line. Of course she would take the souls offered to her; that is why devil worshipers are all about human sacricrifice. They are sending souls to the nine hells to fight in a endless war. Devils also buy souls in Hades at the hag markets. This is why sucubbi, inubi, and hags steal souls; to sell them to demons or devils in the blood war. Zariel would have participated in such markets, directly or indirectly, to sure the ranks up. The honor and justice she had as a celestrial is a memory, like most of the arch devils, they are evil and engage in evil daily, whatever they once did. Fun fact of celestrials, devils, demons, and the like: they are altered by the plane they are in as personifications of elemental good, evil, law, and chaos. For instance, if a devil stuck around mount celessia long enough it would turn into a celestial. This is why the bloodwar is endless: any incursion into hell or the abyss converts the creature towards the plane's alignment. There is a former arch devil that is a demon prince, a sucubus who is a demon prince, and even a goddess who turned into a demon by hanging out there too long. You cannot gain territory; only thin the enemy ranks, but if you push too far you join the enemy's side and start defending the territory for yourself.

Zariel doesn't, particularly, want Karlach at first, it's more of a "oh, another for the vanguard", however being mortal and weaker than most devils, having a good constitution compared to most mortals (barbarian), and a tiefling with fire resistance to boot, it made her a candidate for an experiment which, if successful, would allow Zariel to beef up her mortal military with infernal machines to make even her basic infantry fight on par with lower devils, setting their lowest bar higher than most army's mid-tier. Strategically it isn't a bad idea if you have no morals stopping you. She's less of a "special soldier" and more of a "valuable experimental asset". Getting mad about her leaving, that's because she's holding experimental tech. If it gets to others she's fighting against in the blood war, it will put things back on par instead of giving her an advantage. I don't think Zariel was actually a part of the deal to get Karlach, itself. I think it may have been a go-between that initially took Karlach. Gortash sold Karlach because, as you said, he's repeating what happened to him, and now he's a chosen of the god of tyranny with a larger plan to enact in any way possible.

I was under the impression Gortash offered Karlach as a tribute because he believed she could survive the heart replacement, and Zariel wanted new weapons to win the blood war. Karlach proved to be invaluable as one of the few mortals powerful enough to survive the hells and even included her in her inner circle. I wouldn’t be surprised that if Elturel wouldn’t have been saved, the other Tieflings might’ve experienced the same fate.

Couldn't Zariel just be a "I'll do whatever it takes to win the war, since demons are the greater threat" kinda person

Gortash was already plannig to create the steel watch, made a deal with Zariel. He sells/trades Karlach as a reliable fighter and also a blueprint for the steel watcher's engine prototype (when you talk with a steel watcher on the bridge in wyrm's rock, it talks about how karlach has an outdated engine and treats her as a steel watcher's old model), gets better bodyguards in return (made with infernal tech and stuff by the gondians) that he then uses in the whole Absolute plot. Concerning the point of Karlach being conscripted to Zariel's forces - nowhere in the game is it stated that her soul is bound to the hells (like Wyll's if you take another pact), so supposedly if she dies, she just goes to the fugue plane (spoiler - she does if she dies in the end). Seems to me like Zariel just took a deal, kinda like "hey, wanna good fighter in exchange for/to test some hell engine?" "sure, why not, could always use some fighters in da blood war" (also, as a final "ehm, akshualy" note - Mizora is a Cambion, and even refers to herself as a half devil, when you ask her about how she got captured, so she would not start as a lemure)

The issues about the whole argument on elturel and that it was out of pettiness but wouldn’t do it to other innocent people is that one of the outcomes of helping zariel in the module is that she sets her eyes on baldurs gate next. And that in avernus there are other cities that were pulled down before elturel (the chain remnants on the map marker) while I do believe there is still an angelic side to zariel who wishes to serve lathander again, she very much so still wants to win the blood war and will conscript every living soul to do so. Hence the whole redemption/opposition routes in the module.

I knew you would be upset about Zariel the moment they first mention her

Karlach has a teddybear named clyde

Game is so accurate to D&D it acknowledges dms changing established characters' lores

Tbh I think there’s gonna be a dlc or continuation in which we can save Karlach/remove or stabilize the infernal engine, and perhaps zariel will get more focus and detail of her story!

I actually think the characterization of Zariel is entirely within her personality. As an angel who lost her way, she still has that moral certainty that she always did, but now uses it to justify all her actions in the name of protecting the Realms. I'm sure if she were called out on her deeds, she would say something like "This is what's necessary for the Realms to survive the endless hordes of the Abyss! If it means keeping them at bay, I will show no hesitation or indecision, even if I should be condemned as a monster for it! My actions are utterly beyond your reproach!" I always read Zariel as a "whatever it takes" type of commander, willing to stoop to any lows because she views losing to the demons as a greater evil than anything else she's presented with. Certainly if an arms dealer like Gortash showed up offering his most skilled bodyguard's service (and who knows what else), I should think she's in no position to turn it down.

Possibility: Karlach is not damned. Her soul was not sold, her body was. Zariel was betrayed by the Hellriders because they weren't up to the horrorsof the blood war. Someone in Zariels service invents an infernal engine, a way to make mortals equal to the challenge. She needs a mortal to test it on, not a damned soul or devil. She makes the deal (details unimportant) with Gortash to get a decent fighter to test it on, she gives him the plans for the engine to test on the mortal planes as well. Zariel is mad because her test subject escaped.

Straight up, I love your channel man! I love your energy, the way you engage, the way to tell stories - its great.

I was initially expecting the gripe with the cut content and I got so much more

I thought the infernal engines were all Gortash's design (with the Gondians able to make the blueprints for the prototype), he sold Karlach to Zariel with the prototype in order for them to work together and get a working model they could both mass produce, Zariel could strengthen her army, Gortash gets his robots. Zariel gets to keep Karlach to sweeten the deal and because she'd be useless to Gortash in the material plane.

My theory of why Zariel _buffed_ Karlach with the engine despite having kaijus at her command was because Karlach was just a test run, yeah even with the engine Karlach is nowhere near as strong as Zariel top lieutenants but that was the point: to use an expendable subject to test the effects both positive and negative of the engine before doing a _mass production installation_ that's why Karlach was a valuable asset because she's _test subject zero_ of a new tech that could potentially turn around the blood war. Even tough she was a "common" fighter she was placed in the front-lines of the war and managed to survive so now imagine installing the engines on _Big boys_ like Cambions or Orthons.

well done, i love how you explained that and I've never even played BG3!! But i really enjoyed your version!! Thank you for doing what you do!!

I absolutely loved this video. It is a pleasure to listen to you explaining the lore of devils and demons, I learned tons :D Thank you!

They make it sort of clear that Karlach being a badass, super loyal being of badassery (thats the point and value. LOYALTY. LOYALTY. The thing Zariel doesnt have), that would be perfect for the bloodwar. The exchange was that Gortash got to see how the inferal engine shoved into her worked, and then enslaved the Gondians to make similar engines. Now, we enter into the "Can you Sell someone to a devil." Yes. A sale.. is a contract. Its a loophole in such things. Which, by very definition, lawful evil people LOVE. They are still keeping to setting the contract, still keeping to an exchange. Just because "Oh karlach didnt agree" doesnt matter, because in the design of their relationship, Karlach was a Servant of Gortash, which with how nobles work, makes her property, so Gortash sold her like property, thus making a contract. EZPZ. Why does she want her back? She left, let her explode. No. NO. She was BETRAYED by LOYAL Karlach. NOPE. GET BACK HERE. SUFFER FOR IT. Thats the point. Hurt people Hurt people.

No this whole thing makes sense especially since Zariel has an “at all cost” fallacy going on. Karlach is one hell of a fighter so she bought Karlach to use as her own personal Doomguy. She wants people in hell so she can use them as soldiers to kill all demons.

Your rewrite of the backstory literally gave me chills; now I'm all up in my feels. So much deeper, organic, and heartfelt. This is now my new headcanon. AND!.. I am now SUPER intrigued by Zariel. Time to dig myself in to a rabbit hole. Great video. Thank you!

iirc, Zariel did unleash Demons onto Baldurs Gate at some point, so as to remind the mortal realms that Demons exist and need to be dealt with. so she doesn't seem to particular with civilian casualties, even if the point is to rally mortals against the Abyss.

It's hard to take the points seriously, seeing our fireball wizard fawn over Karlach ahaha. Love the callout for Zariel's portrayal

Thing about Forgotten Realms lore is just that. Most of it’s been forgotten and the sources we have are either from innaccurate sources (Volo) or malicious ones (Xanathar). The story of BG3 is told by the narrator, whereas other stories about Zariel are told by other people. Naturally, the narrator has a different view of Zariel than the storyteller of Descent into Avernus, thus the depictions are different. This is why characters often change personalities and lore across sources. Different storytellers tell different versions of the same story

My issue is that you get ZERO unique Dialogue as a Spore Druid in the freakin’ SPORE VILLAGE. WHY

Huge thanks for the video, now I think I’ll use your ideas about Gortash, Karlach and Zariel for my players in our “Descent Into Avernus” campaign.

In a conversation with the Steel watch with Karlach in your party, she is reffered as a steel watcher and is said to have an outdated engine. So my idea is that since he is a gifted builder, he probably traded Karlach for the schematics of the engine, and promised Zariel some Steel Watchers to bulk up her army to help in the blood war.

i agree that zariel probably very much cares about the material plane and stopping the demons but she is definitely willing to conscript random people into the blood war as written in canon - ie her deal with thavius kreeg and elturel. this is probably also fuelled by what the hellriders did to her but i feel like when you're as passionate about ending the demons as zariel is to the extent that you give up your status as an angel to become an arch-duke i feel your boundries over what you can and won't do for a cause will start to shift and break down

This video could not have more perfect timing. I just started DMing my first DnD campaign which just so happens to be Descent into Avernus, and I've been having an absolute blast. However, after watching one of your Descent into Avernus campaigns end prematurely due to the bathhouse dungeon tpk I decided to rework the beginning a bit. To keep it short, I just had the party start in Elturel so that I could describe to them firsthand how the events of Elturel's descent happened. I had an amazing time describing in detail how it all happened, and I feel it gave my players a stronger sense of purpose than they would've gotten from the original beginning. Overall, I've been having so much fun as a first time DM, and judging by the rave reviews I'm getting from my players I can tell they're having as much fun as I am. Good luck with your campaign Jacob, I'll definitely be watching to draw inspiration where I can for mine.

Might be the best editing ever and my favorite vid now. Gonna show my dnd group tonight 😂

Gortash exchanged Karlach for the blueprints for the infernal engine. It wasn’t just “here, have a tiefling”, from my understanding.

I really hope there is a big DLC for BG3 and that a lot of this sort of thing is included. Karlach deserves much more story.

So I kind of inferred that Karlach was probably something of a proof-of-concept for Zariel. An experiment to test the efficacy of the infernal engine being used to power up a random Tiefling. Following that logic Karlach was probably being stress tested in the blood war, with the intention of using the data from that to create better models. I kind of imagine that Karlach isn't the only she tried this one, hell she may not even be the only one Gortash threw Zariel's way, she was just the one that survived. Not that I have anything to back any of this up.

Descent into Avernus was my first campaign DMing. 4 years later and we've played Eberron and now we're in my own Home Brew world that is connected to Faerun. As someone that came back from drug addiction, Zariel 's redemption arc in my campaign and role playing her legit made me cry. I love my friends that helped me through a dark time in my life and I love Zariel, Descent into Avernus, Baldur's Gate 3, your channel and DnD!

Why did she drag Elturel then to Hell? Because she cares about the denizens on the mortal plane?

The upper city being cut is 100% confirmed. There’s an entire ending for Karlach that has been datamined that we can’t get because the triggers to get it are in the uppercity. It likely involved finding something of Gortash’s to fix her engine as it’s the only ending she is supposed to have where she gets to stay on the Material Plane and live. There’s also datamined information of cut content set in Avernus the size of the Underdark in the base game. Karlach and Zariel got done dirty by cut content, but it makes sense given how late into production she was added

I'm commenting this only a few minutes into the video, but since Jacob mentioned how heart-wrenching Karlach's story is, I would like to add on: If for whatever reason someone wants to make Karlach's story hurt *more*, pick Karlach as your origin/pc and romance Minthara. Their scenes together are beautiful and also made me want to cry for a week ;-;

I could see Zariel doing this if she felt like she was loosing and needed everything she could get. It could be a cool perspective to get if we get a dlc in Avernus with Karlach

I really enjoyed your rewrite. I think there is so much potential for any expansion for the game regarding furthering the stories of the companions. If they do a Karlach in the hells DLC vs Zariel, I would love if this was the plot. Imagine fighting through the hells and getting to Zariel only to find her feel betrayed by karlach and that she only tried to save her life. That shit would be awesome.

About the selling people to the hells and that. Isn't that the whole story of Elturel? Thavius Kreeg sold all the people there to Zariel with the the creed resolute. So it should have been quite simple for Gortash to have best girl Karlach to sign something similar.

I am just taking your version and making it head-canon in my head smiles

Hello. I enjoy your content, even when I'm not familiar with it, which is the case here. Once you put forth your establishing explanation of these characters I think that I felt where you were going. Xariel of a furnace sounds like a dysfunctional and passionate character, prone to strong emotion. When people make an illogical decision, like adopting someone into an army of little tactical value, treating them like a pet, and improving their function so that they can survive on the same plane, this is typically an emotional decision. Whether she is feeling sisterly, motherly, or romantically, these are protective/provider steps that one provides to someone they care about. Zariel sounds like she would be dysfunctional enough that she is unable to directly express herself and will, instead, be frustrated that others cannot extrapolate her feelings simply from the starkly obvious actions that she repeatedly takes. This leads to a feeling of betrayal. This is the sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that many people suffer when they feel that no one will ever love them or understand them, and it is a repeating behavioral pattern in those that are unable to be self-aware and change. Your complaints of how others describe Zariel is simply more people misunderstanding and misinterpreting what she is doing, no? Everyone is not so capable of understanding and empathizing with others, especially those that seem to be directly opposed to their wants and needs. Just my two cents, I don't know any of this lore other than what you presented here. Sounds like a good game. Thanks for another great video

What bothers me is that the party has access to a solution to the Karlach problem right out of the gate. Withers has True Resurrection. True Resurrection can create an entirely new body for someone and replace missing organs, etc. So... all you need to do is kill Karlach, cut out her engine, have Withers resurrect her, and boom. Karlach has her heart and no more infernal engine problems. Same applies to the tadpoles... if anyone in the party were to die or have their body destroyed, Withers would bring them back sans tadpole with True Resurrection. Probably shouldn't have given the party unlimited access to a 9th level spell for 200 gold.

Big fan of your exposition changes, it effectively changes nearly nothing "IN GAME" but it changes a bit of the backstory and completely re-frames the whole character dynamic.

Omg the target manager bit has me dead. I'm in the middle of an airport uncontrollably laughing and people are staring at me.

maybe the infernal engine was an idea that gortash had. He approached Zariel and gave her Karlach so Zariel can make her into a prototype carrier of the engine. The idea being that what was done to Karlach would to be expanded on an industrial scale. That would be a powerful asset in the bloodwar.

I actually love the idea that all of the Archdevils are, in at least some capacity, invested in the protection of the material plane. They've all got different reasons they fell from grace and all got corrupted in different ways, but even in stories like Dante's Inferno the rulers of each circle are simply doing a job. Eternally punishing sinners is a way of ensuring that the material plane stays reasonably safe by dissuading people from doing evil things.

I've been wanting you to play Descent into Avernus on arcane arcade for years now and I'm so glad and excited that you are finally doing it

16:30 Mizora is Cambion right? So a half fiend, I'm assuming half breeds can skip the ''early level up part of being a devil'' ?

Something to consider is how people's perceptions of others can be twisted in BG3 and things are not always what they seem. It's a constant theme within the characters that we meet. We're told that Karlach is this big devil lady who's a veteran of the Blood War, but it turns out she's just a victim. Wyll is this gallant wanderer of justice until we find out he's actually taken a pact with a devil to save his town and serves her and her interests. Lae'zel is like this also, even though she comes off as this battle-hungry fiend who cares very little for things like love and life, it's eventually revealed that she has a softer side to her that she was never allowed to grow. The thing is, even though Zariel is described as this betrayer and manipulator and deceiver by all of the people we meet, that might not actually be the case until we meet her. If we ever meet her. She might just act the way you think, or someone else will interpret that differently depending on how they meet her, but the initial impression of that character should not be the final one until you get to this version of Zariel better in this universe. If that ever happens.

So here's my view on it. Gortash is the chosen of Bane, God of Tyranny. If Karlach upon taken a job from Gortash signed a contract, *in best Asmodeus impression i can do* "Should have read the fine print." She was now the property of Gortash for him to sell as he pleases. (Weird to think a follower of Bane would think of people as just pawns and nothing else, right?) Zariel is fighting a war and needs bodies. Devils are all about contracts, as seen with Mizoura and Wyll. Subsection Zeta paragraph 3b point 4 of page 532. These contracts are usually filled with litigation and loopholes against the signee. (Most of the time) If Gortash had a contract with Karlach, that she unwittingly signed that said she was the property of Enver Gortash in any way, Gortash had all rights in a devil's eyes to sell her to Zariel.

Thanks for the lore education. I didn't even know that all these BG3 was existing characters, for some reason assumed they were mostly new/made up for this story.

Goodness I would love see you rewrite more characters to make them more lore accurate because dang Your idea of how this should have gone is amazing

i cant remember where i heard this but i heard selling karlach was how gortash and a spoiler character got information on the crowns location.

why doesn't every character have the giga-handsome facial structure, that's the real question why did a mod have to do it and why wasn't it default!!!!

ngl I really enjoyed your breakdown of Zariel's history. I'd watch videos of you just breaking down different important npc's or events from the forogten realms.

I think It's possible they wanted to show zarel has become more Evil since decent into avernas she may be the final boss of the dlc

My favourite part of Descend was when Descendius said "it's descending time" and descended all over the place

Great video, interesting points! I do disagree however, having read all of descent twice now I do think what we have heard about her and her actions tracks. She is totally down to forcefully conscript an entire city, and has no qualms using traitors and liars to do it. While I wouldn’t call her the biggest liar in the hells (though I could see why Karlach would say that) she can scheme just like the rest of them. She also may have wanted Karlach as a test subject to maybe shortcut needing to raise devil soldiers to instead use engine-powered mortals. Saves time and you’ll likely have better quality than what will most likely be 90% lemures/bearded devils. That should have been mentioned in game to be fair though, but I don’t think it’s a big leap.

If Gortash is so aware of devils maybe he got his minions to sign contracts that gave over their souls. Hence his ability to sell Karlach. Maybe she wasn’t the only one sold when he got his deal. I assume the trade was for whatever was part of his plan to take over Baldurs gate. When Karlach knew him he was just a dude. When she came back he was a lord with the ability to take over BG. My headcanon is he traded for something that was part of that goal.

hey, man, it's off topic but i just wanted to say i accidentally stumbled upon your vids and channel and really enjoyed the content you make. you're a super chilly and nice dude and i sincerely hope you continue making awesome content. best wishes!!!

From what I gathered about Zariel in her history, is that she doesn't care about the material plane, but only wants to destroy evil, mainly the demons no but also devils in the past, because the celestials are taking an extreme non-intervention stance on the Blood War. This stance frustrated Zariel, not in that the material plane was being attacked, but that evil was allowed to persist. Her story being the classic fable with the Nietzsce quote, "Stare into the abyss long enough and the abyss stares back at you." Her fanaticism lead her to becoming what she hated most kind of thing.

I always understood it as Gortash designing the infernal engine, but needing the materials, went to Zariel and was like “I got this new invention that can make mortal fighters way stronger by replacing their heart. Then Zariel is like “fine, but let’s see if it works with a test subject” and Gortash is like “I know just who is tough enough to handle it.” Zariel gets a better than average warrior and new technology, and Gortash gets the infernal iron for his steel watch. Also, Mizora is a cambion like Raphael, so I don’t think infernal hierarchy works the same way for them.

Hey Jacob, I enjoyed listening to your thoughts about this part of the story. BG is a fantastic game but its plot is not flawless, which is an inevitable side-effect of a narrative with so many branching paths and so many decisions to account for from the moment you start the game. I actually think I prefer your rewrite because it makes Gortash more interesting, not necessarily because of what it does to flesh out Zariel and Karlach. That being said, I want to point something out that you sort of hinted at in the video. You're on record as being a big fan of Zariel in the story and their characterization. I think, however, you also have the privilege of basically playing as this character through your role as a DM. As DMs we like when our big bads can have cool/tragic backstories. Proper motivation is good character writing - its nice to have a good answer to the question of "wait, why is this person being a jerk?" But we also get a unique peek behind the curtain that informs how we imagine a character to be that is not shared by the players - ie, the regular people who don't get this information. You pointed out yourself the immense, cosmic-level feud that is the Blood War. Regular people, in comparison are basically nothing in the grand scope. That also means its impossible for them to look for nuance when at face value things are already so insane. People just see a shitload a devils and demons and either nope the heck out or end up fighting for their lives if they are unlucky enough to get thrown into the conflict. There isn't really room for them to wonder why this is happening, what the stakes are or if the people seemingly responsible are just misunderstood. Devils want my soul so they are bad. Demons want to rip my face off so they are also bad. This story is not really about Zariel. It's about a bunch of fish-out-of-water characters fumbling around trying to figure out what is going on with their brain worms and maybe, if they are lucky, using their newfound powers and friendships to tackle their trauma along the way. I 100% believe that if there were a follow-up to this game that focused on going into Avernus we would get this sort of slow roll of characterization for Zariel that you're alluding to because the Blood War is no longer just two infinite armies of evil creatures endlessly fighting on a different plane of existence. Avernus is the backdrop to BG3, not the central tension. The writers are perfectly capable of writing nuanced and perhaps misunderstood villains. See Ketheric - a forsaken paladin who god-hops until he lands one who can give him the one thing all the others could not. It comes at the price of his very soul and eternal servitude, but we understand why he does what he does and if the player does enough digging they even have the opportunity to pseudo-redeem him before the end. He is ultimately an evil piece of shit but he wasn't always and provided you're not blasting though the game you get the opportunity to figure that out. I totally get where you're coming from. When we're fans of something and have to tolerate seeing our favourite things get misrepresented on screen it evokes strong feelings. I just think you're coming at it from the angle of basically someone who is all-knowing and has all the facts, when the reality is most people on the material plane who know what Avernus is don't have this information and leaning this hard into this part of the story would have detracted from the real threat of the game which was the absolute and the dead three.

wow what interesting thoughts! I always thought karlach was like that super op fighter but it makes a lot sense that karlach is like a potatoe between figthers in the blood war. well the potential would be that she has a special talent to enhance everyone but her writing does not say anything about that other than: she bonks. But there is also the potential of a story we don't know about why zarial was interested in the trade. There is a plot hole that could be filled. I love the writing so much! thank you for sharing your knowledge!

I think Zariel's main issue is the fact she's a lawful extraplanar entity; her mindset is laser focused by the design of her heavenly creator. So be it an angelic slayer of fiends, or a devil dedicated to killing all demons in the blood war, her mind is dedicated to that war. Although I would love, love, love, to interact with Zariel directly in BG3. I would in a heart-beat trade my MC to hell, or do some crazy heist, to save my pal Karlac.

Here is a thought: As players and readers of the story we might be able to read Zariel's character better than any of the in-world characters would. Going purely by her actions her followers have no reason to doubt her ruthlessness, evil and cunning. And knowing that she used to be a celestial who switched sides, calling her a deceiver is also not far of a stretch. In BG3 we only really hear people talk ABOUT Zariel. Whether or not she truly is what people make her out to be is not actually confirmed.

I am currently running decent into avernus with my own group and yeah I felt like something was missing while playing bg3 but couldn't pin point it until you talked about it thank you.

Man this was entertaining, i could listen to your reasonings all day!