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trying to classify the unknown throws of Shuai Jiao with Judo terminology

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As you all know, I am a huge fan of anything wrestling/grappling. Shuai Jiao is one of my favorite forms of wrestling along with Judo but unlike Judo, Shuai Jiao does not have any known names for their throws. So since Judo and Shuai Jiao have very similar (almost identical) moves, i cut up a small video of some Shuai Jiao techniques originally from WRESTLINGROOTS.COM and tried identifying each of the Shuai moves with Judo names. I may have mislabeled some of them so if you have any knowledge on what these moves are called please comment. Thanks

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29 апр 2012

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Комментарии : 52

@fadedsideways 12 лет назад

The man was doing moves from Shuai Jiao. I just added the judo drawings in front to identify what i thought those Shuai throws were called. China has many effective arts for MMA such as Sanda for striking, Shuai Jiao for wrestling and Chin Na for joint locking and submissions. The rest and majority of CMA would be more practical for a street fight more then a cage fight. I dare say i think Wing Chun would be good in MMA because of the centerline theory for striking and fast hand movements.

@taichibum 11 лет назад

Great vid. The names of the moves in the order they are shown are Zhan Lan Ti, Gai Bu Chuai, Xiao De He, Bie Zi and Qian Tui. The names of the moves can also be further classified by the stepping used to set them up.

@fadedsideways 4 года назад

Thank you for listing the moves! I'm sorry I saw your comment so late!

@infokemp 11 лет назад

The main advantage of boxing is not just powerful punches derived from the power generated by the legs and turning of the hips and shoulders, in many boxing matches you can see directly how throws where once in boxing. Turning a fighter some times ends in the boxer finding the weak line & his opponent falls to the mat. However I would say it is the avoidance (slips, I would not use ducking in MMA!) defensive blocking primarily using the rear hand that makes boxing a very strong striking system.

@infokemp 11 лет назад

In boxing for counter punching but more specific to your point is reaction punches off deflections and blocks - i.e there is a great video on this about how to use footwork with a slight block and then the power of the legs and turn of the body for a low hook to the opponent - this is a drill but because in boxing, MMA & Jujitsu - you can drill from what seems natural techniques as a reaction the drill expands naturally almost to low intensity sparring. Better to be pro-active than reactive

@thaiboxer5 8 лет назад

that wasn't koshi guruma. koshi guruma is simular to the shuai chiao throw known as neck surround.

@infokemp 11 лет назад

Wing Chung directing punches to the sternum and heart plexus is also known in Jujitsu and boxing. I think this attacking the nerve centers on the chest especially with the kind of up turned fist used in wing chung's and old bare knuckle boxing's short straight drilling punches is a good idea. There are aspects of all arts which are good but the prime advantage wing chung people claim is speed but boxing has both speed & power. I was dismissive of boxing (JJJ was my art) once but I was wrong.

@FireRupee 11 лет назад

Yeah, a lot of that actually sounds like wing chun and hung gar to me (minus the grappling). But regarding throws vs strangles, the advantage of throws is time and mobility. You can be done with a throw in a second and stay standing, but strangles often take time and almost all are groundwork; if you have more than one opponent this is very advantageous. You're not likely to have more than one opponent in competition, but it's still something to keep in mind.

@infokemp 12 лет назад

P2 reply continued) - to use underhooks in stand up from JJJ or CACC with Boxing or Mauythia - it would be a way to make lock flows in stand up with resistance - just like the Gracies & 10thPlanet have done for ground fighting - CACC from what I have seen is very much drill based (good) & JJJ is based on Kata (drills that have become demonstrations) - Judo is all sparring we need all 3 for stand up JJ - its no good against a boxer getting tired or having technical but weak holds to recuperate.

@fadedsideways 12 лет назад

well I've taken a Shuai Jiao class before and the master had no names for the moves he would demonstrate. He would just show what he's demonstrating, how to do it, make us drill it and then do the move. If you know the Chinese names of these throws I'm listing then by all means please feel free to share it with us. Thanks

@ttc.o4007 4 месяца назад

Makes sense. It certainly appears that Judo comes from not only Jiu Jitsu but Shuai jiao as well. The similarities in the techniques are nearly identical 💯. Just my own observation

@FireRupee 11 лет назад

I did check out the Hatmaker video you mentioned though. It is some pretty interesting stuff.

@panstriato2 11 лет назад

I like the idea (never had to try it thankfully) of standing chokes and locks in a multible oponent fight becouse you can use the guy you are choking as a shield and also as a bargaining card for his friends to back away and or drop any weapons. Hard to pull but may end the confrontation quick which is allways the objective.

@infokemp 11 лет назад

I am a believer in using blocking if it is to an advantage - many techniques in fighting systems focus on defense with blocking and disruptive strikes either to stun or distract but it is better to do combinations - and then get a strangle or less effective a throw. I would still direct you to the use of cover blocking and small circle blocks in boxing but position and body movement to make them off balance and miss is better - since you then have clarity and advantage (i.e turning an opponent

@infokemp 12 лет назад

Good video - this must be the first Chinese system I have seen apart from San Shou & JDK that comes close to working - was the fighter doing the throws from Shuai Jiao or from Judo under the instructional description of a Shuai Jiao practitioner. For me MMA Jujitsu Judo Mauythia & Western martial arts like boxing CACC & Pankration are the best but if China does have systems that they themselves have ignored or which in the west are less known we should help them grow. Good to test against

@ChamorruWarrior 11 лет назад

Standing chokes almost never work besides like a gullitine, and even then if you sit there long enough trying to bargain the guy is gonna find a way out of it. A rear naked choke MAYBE, but you have WAY more control with the person flattened out on the ground with you on his back. If the person is standing then he's gonna have more space to work and there will be way more options. My advice with multiple attackers is run, but if you can't you don't wanna get close cause they can grapple you down

@FireRupee 11 лет назад

I'll check it out. I'm still slightly dismissive of boxing since, though it once had throws, it no longer does now, and it just seems incomplete. Power and speed are definitely in boxing though, but in Wing Chun, I wouldn't say power is lacking. Something I'd say is of greater advantage is the tight defense, the simultaneous attack and defense, and the explosive power generated for such little effort. Boxing, by contrast, seems to wear people out pretty quickly.

@Renjingtian 9 лет назад

i am really interested in his grip!! does it very differently than anyone i saw without a gi

@fadedsideways 4 года назад

Watch wushu Sanda Fighters! They have excellent executions of shuai jiao moves without a jacket using mostly wrestling grips. Anytime you want to see good SJ wrestling without the jacket just watch a professional Sanda match!

@abighunkolove2313 4 года назад

@@fadedsideways hello! But can you do all the shuai jiao throws with gloves on?

@FireRupee 11 лет назад

Another thing I've never seen in another art today is training up the ability to fight entirely by reflex, developing a feel for how a person's body is aligned and striking at openings without thinking. When good enough, wing chun practitioners can do this blindfolded. lol Seems like it might be useful sometime.

@infokemp 11 лет назад

The footwork strategies in Boxing are very effective but I also like the way that Japanese Brazilian Jujitsu seek to attack the flanks or turn people to get their back for strangles - integrating boxing as a sort of can opener - to get pass defense or for attrition I think is a good strategy. The other English martial art apart from Boxing that I think is of major interest now is Catch as Catch can it has some amazing techniques; I recommend you check out Mark Hatmaker's channel link on my page

@Filthylosopher 12 лет назад

@HuiHuiTanTui has a good point. The techniques do have names. But, you know, maybe the master you trained with doesn't feel that recording the names is so important. Some teachers often say there are many "flavors" of Shuai Jiao, so maybe he is part of a lineage that doesn't record the names. I believe that happens in others traditions of CMA as well. By the way, good work with the comparison. I believe you labeled them right.

@infokemp 12 лет назад

Thanks for the reply - I agree with you on some aspects of wing chun being applicable but they would have to be incorporated with English boxing adapted for MMA - if you look at Japanese Jujitsu or CACC for stand up it is easy to see how strong locks & underhooks can be used in stand up (not necessarily to brake limbs - the ground is better for that as you have more leverage i.e BJJ - but using locks to flow around to better striking positions & take downs - its a theory I am working on for JJ)-

@HuiHuiTanTui 12 лет назад

What led you to believe that Shuai Jiao does not have names for its throws?

@FireRupee 11 лет назад

Sorry, but could you explain how wing chun (an upper and lower striking style with throws and others also) would have to be integrated into western boxing (a purely upper-body striking style) before it became effective?

@jimmyalderson1639 6 лет назад

First one was hiza guruma Second one was ipponzeoi nage (most certainly NOT koshi guruma) 1:00 kosoto gari, nothing like okuri ashi barai

@NZSambo 11 лет назад

dreamer.....

@Joe11Blue 4 года назад

You seem lost fake San Shou

@ChamorruWarrior 11 лет назад

MMA is for a very specific situation, a 1v1 duel under rules while in safety gear under the supervision of a reff. It CAN help you in self defense but it's not the best choice, as you mentioned, real people fight with weapons, something I NEVER did when I was in MMA for 2 years, real people fight in groups, also something I NEVER trained in MMA. But my point is not that MMA is bad and KF is good, my point is most of BOTH "suck" outside of their context and should be kept for "culture only"

@howard33072 8 лет назад

Cool

@infokemp 12 лет назад

Well my main focus is English & Japanese - western mordern MMA style systems - boxing CACC, Jujistsu (JJJ BJJ 10thPJJ) & Hatmakercombatsports system of ESP & also wish I could do Mauythia but I am not that athelic anymore - even so if you have any videos that are based on JKD, San Shou or Shuai Jiao style CMA I would not mind - I also respect tia chi or wing chun but those r drills or exercise not really practical MA just; running with weight or yoga as complements; better to train though on mat

@FireRupee 11 лет назад

lolol You must not have seen very many Chinese systems then. I encourage you to look up wing chun, bagua zhang, and xing yi quan. I think you might like those too.

@infokemp 12 лет назад

P3) I have contacted Mark Hatmaker (combat sports - great channel check it out for boxing & CACC for MMA), Gracie Academy & 10thPlanet on the topic of lock flows in stand up for positional striking - as a Jujitsu & boxing senior student their is only so much influence & experience I have but those people could revolutionize stand up - the ground is the place to fight in MMA or against one pyscho in the street but in a riot or war sometimes we need something else. I am be interested in CMA vids

@ChamorruWarrior 11 лет назад

That's why the Chinese used guns too... The point is not that KF is impossible to beat, the point is that somewhere along the lines, actual KF worked for someone, or it would not have existed for over 5,000 years. First of all, KF has weapons like swords and spears, it was for REAL LIFE and people who fight in real life use weapons. MMA is not real life and while most Ming warriors would lose an MMA fight, every MMA fighter who was handed a sword and put into an ancient Chinese battle would die.

@supertroll9949 11 лет назад

Look up Wing Chun in MMA, back in the early UFC and MMA days when there were literally no rules up until 95...They all seem to get knocked out due having there guard centered on there centerline which made them open to Right and Left Hooks........Sad videos google it. Modern Sanda,Sanshou is making a strong statement in MMA lately though, Sanda is considered the Kung Fu of 21st century China. lol

@supertroll9949 11 лет назад

I have yet to see Wing Chun used correctly in any open style competition weather in Kickboxing,MMA or Challenge matches on youtube with MMA gloves.......Great theories that work but plagued by terrible teachers and a lack of contact sparring. Boxing is definitely incomplete but seems to do pretty ok in videos of street fights,MMA and somethings open style match as a stand up style though they lose much less then the WingChun fighters on youtube who are embarassing.

@Tianshanwarrior 11 лет назад

Nice vid, but HuiHuiTanTui is right every technique has a name in Chinese

@supertroll9949 11 лет назад

I had to learn Martial Arts on Guam to fight off the Invasion of Chuukese who use to throw rocks at me because I'm Russian/Chamorro..lol True story

@supertroll9949 11 лет назад

If you pulled a Ming Dynasty warrior to the present they would get wiped by amatuer MMA fighters easy.....Dont forget only 700 years ago the average male height in the world was 5'0 to 5'4, and nutrition was poor. War in the open field with multiple opponents, weapons,horses and arrows flying everywhere made Ground fighting the last thing on there mind and wasnt developed upon. They'll have more guts but once taken down to the ground its game over, they wouldnt know what to do.

@supertroll9949 11 лет назад

MMA and non-sport Reality training systems like Krav maga or whatever other systems are ALL based on techniques from TMA systems that actually WORK while taking out the outdated ones, you act like MMA techniques were created yesterday or something, the difference here is the "Live training not really the techniques" that makes it modern. And just cuz something is old doesnt make it better....A Arrow has been around for Eons but is it better then a Cruise missile? M.A is always evolving!

@ChamorruWarrior 11 лет назад

TECHNICALLY under MMA rules he'd HAVE to fight someone who is in the same weight class... But we can sit here all day and take people out of their original context and make them look stupid all day. Lets give Anderson Silva a spear and throw him into a feudal Japanese battle field... >.> TMA worked in real life, MMA is not real life, it's a 1V1 sport fight on a mat under rules with a reff. They're good fighters, but there's a reason no one during ACTUAL violent times figured it out

@supertroll9949 11 лет назад

Probably didnt not bother naming them since you were not a serious student for him to give a fuck. lol jk

@supertroll9949 11 лет назад

Of course Captain Obvious, they dont train weapons.......MMA is not real life, but its the closest thing you got to prepare for the real thing, without killing your training partner and going to Prison for attempted Murder in the name of "Training"...lol The Bow and Arrow has been around for 10s of thousands of years but just because its that old doesnt make it better then a rocket.......Everything updates, even kung fu has updated to modern Sanda which is beautiful.

@supertroll9949 11 лет назад

No one uses swords or spears anymore man, so why even bring it up? MMA is great for empty handed self defense add in knife stick defense, ground defense and stand up for multiple opponents, or simply great modern cardio and conditioning you can OUT run any fat drug addict thug without fighting. As for "weapons training" in the 21 century we get Gun licenses and train live at the range.....What worked for KF is absorbed into the modern systems already. Keep the rest for culture only. TRUTH

@ChamorruWarrior 11 лет назад