0:00 - Intro 0:16 - Bigger Hub = Worse Ride 3:52 - Important of 3rd Party #1 6:09 - Higher Footpads = Unstable 8:01 - Importance of 3rd Party #2 10:36 - Whole Video Summarized in under a minute
The business is at FM, and the passion is at TFL. I have been wondering many times what the OW communityv would be without 3rd party companies, and even if there would be any community at all. TFL do a hundred times more to promote OW than FM do, honestly. I really hope one day they will open their eyes, and recognize 3rd party companies as valuable partners.
@Sylvain Chaussard yes, to those companies helping the smaller or showing recognition that a competitor has a good product means they dont value their own product. In some instances (more seen in retail or fast food) companies merge for the better and just settle out for the long ran dividends.
@Sylvain Chaussard I'm not sure. In your example, there's only busyness on both sides. When someone brings or maintain passion to a product, it is a great plus for the manufacturer.
Good insight and well said! As a European rider, we are at even more of a disadvantage when it comes to dealing with FM. From even purchasing possibilities and shipping timeframes and extremely exorbitant shipping costs! Plus being held hostage by FM if ever we need a repair as there are no repair shops in our part of the World and sending our boards back to the US would be an economic disaster! However, even with all these luxury (we are privileged to be able to afford such machines) problems, when you press that button and jump on your board it makes it all worthwhile! It is that feeling that FM are living on but as you say when there is another manufacturer that gives us that same feeling with the right to repair and listens to their riders FM might struggle in the future to hold on to our forced loyalty when they lose that monopoly advantage!🙏🏾
What a perfect video. Summarized so well. A lot of this wouldn't bother me nearly as much if the XR wasn't being discontinued. Being forced onto a GT if I kill my XR is easily what frustrates me the most. Especially when there won't be the same wealth of third-party accessories for the GT for the first few months or more of it's lifespan. I truly hope FM see's this. Then again, even if they do. I don't see them making any adjustments to the hub anytime soon.
Thanks for the thoughts. Your videos helped me really learn the OW before I made the purchase. My biggest take away from the last two months: glad I bought my pint when I did! (April 2021)
Excellent work Jake. Your points are very well thought out and explained, I don’t think it would necessarily be a bad idea for FM to push back the launch slightly to look at maybe re evaluating some of these design choices, and gather some input from knowledgeable riders.
Excellent points. Personally I think the added thickness of the board is gonna cause more issues for more people (due to reduced clearance) than the bigger hub. Would love to hear your ideas on where they could have placed the additional batteries. Can’t wait for new smaller battery technology to arrive - that should allow for some huge improvements in board design/ performance.
For me professor you really summed it up, the one wheel community is team human all the Way, FM on the other hand is just a model of the wrong corporate struggle, the zero sum game so many play. I get the feeling they’re trying to follow an Apple model, but missed the whole point of how Apple plays the game. Right now I’m really blown away by how many people are upset that we were making comments about this at all. The fact that they didn’t reach out to anyone in the one wheel community whatsoever during the design process speaks volumes. And look at the way they did Tyler, he basically sees the GT jumps on it, rides it, then jumps off. There’s no time to really think about any of the design changes. I love my XR, well both of them, and will hold off getting a GT until I ride it. As always thank you for a well presented video. Aoxomoxoa
Really good point about the bigger hub being an issue. I can't remembering hearing that the tire size itself was a tire supply issue so hopefully this reinforces that TFL have something in the works
I was an early investor in Future motion and own two boards. I've ask them from day-one to make a software option that would make the board start beeping when one reaches top speed and push-back. A beep that would tell you that you are about to eat the pavement. My Segway beeps when I hit top speed and I have never nose dived. Did future motion care? Hell no, now they're getting sued. Future Motion started a big campaign to blame the users of the board for nose dives. When you don't want to take responsibility for something you blame others. I also told then if they would move their operation to Florida or Taxes they could cut the price of the board in half and sell to a wider demographic but again they didn't care. Onewheel GT $2,200 WTF man. What kidd can afford that????? Great video Thanks
Are any riders out there able to power slide them? Especially on dirt. If so, can someone do a tutorial. I would think the type surface would be the key to start. Then once a rider gets used to doing it, they could keep pushing the boundaries. I would be doing it if I was younger I believe. 69 and still having fun.
As much as I would love for fm to listen and work with us it’s kinda awesome to have the opportunity to expand on their products to build our dream boards. Suspension kits, wtf, growler and tail rails. In a way I enjoy the challenge. Whatever problems the gt board has this community will fix it. Keep up the good work dude!
Jake, I would love to see you do a video of a list of all the things you wish would have been on a new board. You know one thing for sure FM won't steal any of your ideas! I love the digital board sport and will not be surprised when we will have a legit competitor to the FM OW sooner than later. Let's get a list going somewhere of all the things we want to see in a new board... EUC's are sooooo far ahead tech wise and getting better every few months because there are several companies competing for business.
As an outsider looking in to the onewheel community (I tried one ages ago and loved it but ended up going the eboard route) this makes sense to me in term# of riding dynamics. Does this make the pint x a better bet than an XR? I know it’s smaller and lighter which changes dynamics but also has close to XR range and performance - what are your thoughts on this Jake?
Many of us have been saying for years that it’s only a matter of time before someone gets the firmware/software on a knock-off just right to cause a cascade of dedicated riders and potential new riders to jump ship from FM. I’m sure the GT will be fun, and bring a lot to the table. But all the flaws and logic behind them you mentioned are big deals. I’m hoping someone figures out how to tune a 3rd-party board jusssst right. While I’m not a big fan of wider board setups, they do at least have options better than the modern boards for battery storage. And extra half-Inch to inch could go a long way for torque and range. The PCBs for the 3rd party boards are also tiny compared to the FM controllers. Plenty of room for extra batteries and better weight-balancing.
Admittedly the larger diameter hub may be going in the wrong direction but it is only 1/4" difference in the area that you are describing. In fact, that makes the side wall the same as the Pint sidewall height relative to the rim. Good followup points though.
So I just got my GT and egg shaped tire is making hard to balance the board as it wobbles awkwardly. Would you recommend lowering the tire pressure say to 14 PSI? I’m a first time Onewheel use. I already eat and almost busted my arm lol
You do realize that going to the 6.5 hub only reduces the sidewall by only 0.25 inches. While its possible someone may notice, I don't think anyone really will be able to tell. Th side wall is going from 2.5 inches to 2.25 inches. However it's still a super sh!t move by FM to go to a nonstandard hub size. Great video.
Joe, I think you're right. By my back-of-the-napkin calculations, the slightly larger hub reduces volume by about one percent. I'm skeptical that even the most elite riders could discern that small a difference. Even if they could, I'd have to think that a small change in air pressure could compensate adequately for such a small volume change. Agreed, too, on the nuisance of a hub size that effectively cuts out third-party suppliers. That didn't stop either of us from getting in line for a GT, did it? 🤣
So - how about if someone makes longer rails for the GT, and then supplies a bigger wheel, maintaining the wheel2hub ratio. Thoughts? (my guess is that FM will not change anything at this point)
Good points and well presented. I'm a brand new rider and was wondering why the board wasn't lower to the ground for more stability. I felt like I was balancing on a bowling ball. I love the product, very innovative, but I get your points. I wonder if the hub was made larger to accommodate the larger motor. Also the first time I experienced push back, it almost caused me to panic and lose it. Wish we could dial in when it kicks in. And its just a matter of time before competitors reverse engineer the Onewheel with improved tweaks and offer it for less. That's probably why all the secrecy is what I'm guessing. I'm glad to support a U.S. based company that manufactures stateside.
I feel like the onewheel community is stuck in the past tbh still trying to convince themselves that the xr is superior to the pint, pint x and gt when in reality its dinosaur tech. Just wait til the GT comes out its going to slap an XR in literally every way. Tricks and street choose pint x, offroad and competition choose GT it makes perfect sense that they discontinued something as aging and outdated as the XR.
True about the bigger hub meaning less cushioning, but it also means more torque and less torque lag through the tire, end these are good things, so it's a trade off. Pluses and minuses. I personally think they pluses outweigh the possibility of a hub fracture (though I have ordered a GT so I've got skin in the game!)
I believe that the Centre of Gravity argument is a red herring. Our CoG is about at our waist and 1cm is maybe 1% difference. I paddle board and people think a recessed deck makes a difference but it doesn't. The difference is the width (30 inches v 25 is 20% difference). Funnily enough many people ignore 'secondary stability' which is the rail dipping in the water and getting bouyancy, which is why thick rails help (SIC and others really get this). And one could argue that secondary Onewheel stability comes from to and fro body motion, which is helped by concave footpads. So maybe FM are doing the right things?
Good point about torque. I know a lot of people don’t mind or even prefer a shorter sidewall (for example, Growler riders). But for me, when I ride a Pint tire I don’t notice a lack of torque lag, I mainly notice the comfort and traction.
@@simonbowden8408 you lost me in the second half! I don’t really SUP but I feel like if you stacked blocks on top of it and stood on those blocks it would make it way harder to balance
@@jameshite4820 seems hard to believe that FM make that much money out of tyres? I know that people think FM are only after money, but I think they are actually concerned mainly about safety, hence most of the GT changes. FM have a difficult balancing act. The young skaters who do all the tricks want no pushback etc, while most customers are actually 30+ and like the glide but don't want to nosedive. Hence the GT. Lots of torque and control, but likely quite a bit of pushback. And much fewer nosedives due to less chance of low battery fail. FM are copying the trend in EUCs I think. Which is huge battery and big torque. But avoiding the 50mph speed, as FM are US based and face law suits.
Agree with all points 🤘🏾 About the larger hub: I don’t see Hoosier or any other tire company (other than Vega) going out of their way to making specific tire for the GT unless they feel it to be profitable for them. I’ll admit however that this remains to be seen. We really won’t know how the tire companies will respond until GT’s release but I just don’t see owners sending the GT back to FM every time there’s a flat, (or tires companies clamoring to produce a single tire mod in the middle of a pandemic).
It would be exclusively for onewheel, a tiny market versus the big outlay to create a new mould size. Burris have already said to those asking them, that they won't be making one any time soon. £400 it would cost a uk ride to send their board for a tyre change. I can get 5 FF T2 off Hoosier for that
Great video Jake! I agree on all points. I have a GT on order, and I’m excited for it- but I have a nagging feeling that I’ll continue to choose my CBXR XR with a TrailPro for much of my trail riding. Here’s hoping the pros outweigh the cons 🤙
You are a genius Jake. FM should hire you guys as I feel The Float Life are experts and would make the One Wheel design the best with your feedback. Future Motion is so missing out on how awesome their boards can really be with the proper feedback and guidance for design from true OW riders and enthusiast.
Knocked it out of the park ! Couldn't have put it better. Do we know the exact dimensions yet? I know the initial and subsequent stat sheets all had different sizes from pint ish size to middle ground and xr size? GT looks shorter and not as wide but thicker rails. You're absolutely right once a competitor comes along with software fm will lose half or more of their customer base... they'll end up like rollerblade(company) and get left in the dust.
Pro riders break rims, the rest of us break bones. 🤣 The screen shot of you bonking up three stairs and compressing the whole tire to the rim illustrates your point perfectly, really awesome OW vid all thru. However, that bonk also shows how much of a better rider you are than just about all of FM’s customers. During Lazors 30min GT trail ride video he says the GT was designed to dramatically improve performance for the average customer. So, if the GT board lacks for pros but not for joes, that might actually increase the niche for 3rd parties to design and sell new products to everyone. Which is exactly what TFL did 3-4 years ago with it’s first product, float plates. The VESC programming seems promising too, viable competition is getting close. Bonking like that is so far out of the regular customer’s ability, the GT might have been designed to give regular customers a greater riding experience.
Excellent points! But I do think that the bigger rim and taller platform will mean less stability and comfort for the average rider. And I’ve actually never chipped or dinged a rim on a bonk, but just riding rocky trails I dinged them all the time before Life Savers
@@JakeLeary I think you nailed it, it's not designed for pros. They just split the difference on what to improve and on some key points for experts and guys like... I was gin a say us but I'm a 40 year old lame ass with simple stop turned on... They went with range first, everything else second. Not terrible but not what the die hard wanted. I don't understand why FM doesn't do more with the community. Like, make the debate friendly, welcome feedback and take questions. Agree to disagree on stuff, but this silence and lack of support really seems out of place from how the community is. Also I love the calm and logic take on this, the title is a bit click baity but the video comes across very level headed.
Good info. But we all know how stiff of sidewalls fm loves having on thoer boards from the factory. And as we know there is only 2 options of tire for the gt. They will probably be rock hard tires. I'm pretty confident that the busted rim in the video had a Hoosier or burris on it when it got busted vs the hockey puck it originally came with
Definitely some good thoughts. As someone who has not yet riden a onewheel but has followed onewheel's journey for years I don't think I will notice any of these flaws when I purchase a GT because I have no comparison. I suppose I am one of the lucky ones
As someone looking at joining the hobby... What the heck should I do? I am currently saving up for a one wheel and I feel like I am screwed since the XR has been discontinued.
Is it possible they customize their off-road tire to have thicker side to compensate for thinner profile? What about custom shaping for approach angle? I mean a dynamic approach angle that adaptive to slope as your slope changes.
@@JakeLeary at the side of the tire if they can make it thicker would it give more protection to the rim? I am thinking that is what they would do with their custom tire, I would love to have a reply from FM. I rode on the edge a lot and that is the part of the tire gets used up the most.
Never, the hub IS the motor. Disconnect the gt motor hub from the pcb ( lost reference signal through pcb ) and BOOM bricked onewheel gt that needs reprogramming cause the micro controller has no memory beyond power loss. This is the same for modern cars, the dealers removed the equivalent of the cost battery on your computers motherboard... without it, no micro controller memory.. hence whyyou cannot full disconnect a battery on a modern car or disconnect the hub from the board 🤔 😉
Yes smaller hubs and bigger tire sidewalls can improve suspension action of the Onewheel but no-one makes smaller tires for smaller hubs, and FM has locked themselves in to the new tire/hub size. This will improve with time as the tire vendors make tires for this new size. Before you know it we will be rolling on 20's with spinners. If the GT tire wheel combo has the same tire diameter then it may be easy to do a hub swap if the motor which appears to be the same on all FM devices. Put up some number facts please. Love the honesty you present to FM about the relationship we have with them. An area they have misrepresented is the top speed with the new form factors Pint and soon GT they are not able to hit the advertised top speed without putting oneself at risk by fighting pushback, the XR would start a milder but increasing level of pushback at 15-16 mph. Pushback is meant to be a safety mechanism that unfortunately kicks in way before the average cruising speed and top speed of FM's platform of devices. This also may be a result of only having in house testers rather than hitting a range of users in the real world that should include pro riders on down to the family that one wheels. A suggestion for FM you have the software in place use the diagnostics to include real world stats, like Tesla does. You can see average speeds, top speeds and terrain with as much other data that is collectible. Between the users phone and the devices sensors there is no limit. The one wheel has become a cult icon device and should stay that way. Nice commentary Jake keep up the great content.
Great Video Jake. Love the Honesty. I have a dream that FM will work with a few 3rd party companies for a new board. Have FM make the Board, FL the footpads bumpers etc.. and have Chi handle the battery. Oh man that would be a dream rock solid product!
Last year, FM freaked out that TFL and FM were both sponsoring DirtSurferz. They said, “you can’t have Nike and Adidas sponsoring the same event.” We were like bruh if you’re Nike we make shoelaces. So yeah I agree a collabo would be sweet but I don’t think FM sees it that way… I mean, you wouldn’t have Nike using fabrics from Goretex or rubber soles from Continental or reflective strips from 3M would you???
@@JakeLeary This has nothing to do with your point...as I agree with it. However, under Nike, Converse has often offered Goretex shoes. And also Cordura shoes. They're not actual Nike's, sure. But....ya know. Again, no real point here. FM's treatment of vendors has always been very silly and unreasonable.
I want to know where would you put the batteries !! PS: You need to try newest VESC boards, considering you rode alternatives year ago, a lot of changed during the year :)
FM needs to realize that they have an absolute gem of a product, but they simply do not have the staffing, facilities, or capacity to manage everything themselves. The repairs, production, R&D, marketing…they need to allow third party repair shops.
I'm so scared to order. I got burned by my pint. When I first ordered, i didnt know it was pretty much crowdfunded. And when it finally arrived(4 months late) The mileage was laughable. FM is very sneaky.
Honestly i would just want them to put in the work for their own low profile suspension system that doesn't stick up a full foot above the wheel like the current 3rd party options.
I was thinking about it but I’ve got two already, and I go about 2-3 years on average without needing any major repairs, so I think they’ll last a while
You can battery swap them , even if you just need something close to stock wo chip you can put a sp pack in, makes me wonder why chi doesn't make a stock pack but with better cells - more power range but will play well with the bms
Funny that TFL created Lifesavers just for small percentage of riders and new FM product just makes it more desirable for wider audience 🤣 I REALLY want to believe that the bigger rim size is for something more than monopolizing tire market. Actually it may resolve my 2 main issues when doing long uphill trails - 1. motor overheating - with extra batteries the range uphill is not so big of an issue and overtime the motor (and controller) overheats. Controller cools down fast, but motor not so much. Bigger rim side walls means more area to dump the motor heat. The other issue I have is poor low end torque - again uphill - rocky sections or hairpin turns and XR really struggles. If whole rim is bigger, not only sidewalls it could give us more low end torque because of the bigger stator.
@@andrzejz8316 larger diameter hub motor means a lot more torque. The relationship is; torque = diameter squared so increasing the motor diameter just a little bit really increases available torque for the same current, and that means increased safety and less chance of the user overpowering the motor and causing nosedive. The natural evolution of the Onewheel will be similar to EUCs. Motors will get larger in diameter and so will the tires, and eventually there will be a couple of valid sizes; a small beginner/kids size, a medium sized off-road or tricks model, and larger heavier high-speed urban transport model. FM must know that the GT will not be ideal for off road riding and trail tricks. I'm betting they will bring the XR back as their mid-range model, but in a new format with similar styling to the Pint and GT... 🤔
Great video (as always) but I'm not convinced that this small increase in hub size will impact shock absorption much. By my rough calculation, the resulting volume change is only about 1 percent. I doubt that most (if any) riders would notice the difference in suspension effect. On the other hand, the difference in torque could be noticeable because there's an 8 percent difference in hub radius. (Mechanical engineers and others who paid more attention in school, feel free to set me straight on these points!)
Engineer from the future. Unfortunately, the 8% increase in the hub size was used for literally nothing. Motor stator is the same from the XR, but deliberately manufactured so you can’t use the XR hub with the GT to prevent you from being able to go back to a standard tire size and thus, have more options for tires. So you get all the downsides of a bigger hub of a 1% decrease in air volume and none of the upsides like more torque.
Was thinking about buying one, but thanks for the heads up, they need to work with the float community, we did spend thousands of our hard earned dollars to have one
Here’s the thing, speed controller PID algorithms have already been figured out. You don’t even need to design the software, it’s already there. The thing that future motion did very well is figuring out that sweet spot in what makes this board operate so smoothly. It’s not really IF it can be copied, it’s when. And I have a strong feeling that once it’s figured out it will be completely open source. Here’s hoping FM decides to stick around by supporting third parties, because despite all the negativity, no one really wants to see them go.
lol I'm a big fan, Professor 🏆 thnkx. I'm based in NY-City & hope to make it to one of your local clinics/group rides, whatever. hope you keep us posted 🛹💨💨
Everything said here was pure fact. And just as you said when another company is able to create a similar device everyone will hop ship and go to a more customer friendly team.
You just killed my day. I wanted XR for a long time. Tonight, I went through my things and decided to sell all not so important things and finally get one wheel. I went to their website. I’ve noticed there’s a new one. Huge range. The hell. Superb. And then I watched this. XR discontinued. GT is basically worse. Company is shite. Damn.
Worse for me is not necessarily worse for you. If you just want speed and range then get the GT. If not then get a great deal on a used XR, lots of low miles XRs out there for around $1000
Yea, I'm already a little bummed out about my GT. Don't feel bad at all for my two friends who bought an XR just weeks before the GT announcement. I don't like the GTs tire profile, I don't like that future motion is pushing out 3rd party companies, and to be honest I like my XRs ride more...
I've been thinking along the same lines since the GT was announced. I was waiting for all these videos to come out, of all the pro riders trying it out and explaining their contributions to the design. Then nothing and I was hit with this confusion over why FM would waste such a good opportunity. They have this unique and beloved product with such a close relationship to the biggest advocators of their product and instead of using it to make the best damn product possible they just kept those people in the dark. What did they have to lose in asking for input?
this video is so much more relevant now that the GT launched and Jakes Fears are coming right into the light. ya the new board has more torque but that bigger hub and less clearance is going to be an issue for anyone that trail rides which is I think most of the community unfortunately. I have flat feet and any time I over filled my tire oh boy did I feel it so I imagine GTs very hard tire I would absolutely hate especially when theres also more hub and less area to absorb impact...... Good thing I got my trusty XR I guess. I prob should badger it to make sure nothing hurts the thing now more then ever just for that piece of mind. I already through on some bang bumpers as well.
