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Urban Warfare 2.0: A Conversation with John Spencer (Episode  

Sam Harris
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Sam Harris speaks with John Spencer about the reality of urban warfare and Israel's conduct in the war in Gaza. They discuss the nature of the Hamas attacks on October 7th, what was most surprising about the Hamas videos, the difficulty in distinguishing Hamas from the rest of the population, combatants as a reflection of a society's values, how many people have been killed in Gaza, the proportion of combatants and noncombatants, the double standards to which the IDF is held, the worst criticism that can be made of Israel and the IDF, intentions vs results, what is unique about the war in Gaza, Hamas's use of human shields, what it would mean to defeat Hamas, what the IDF has accomplished so far, the destruction of the Gaza tunnel system, the details of underground warfare, the rescue of hostages, how noncombatants become combatants, how difficult it is to interpret videos of combat, what victory would look like, the likely aftermath of the war, war with Hezbollah, Iran's attack on Israel, what to do about Iran, and other topics.
John Spencer is an award-winning scholar, professor, author, and combat veteran. He currently serves as the Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, Co-Director of the Urban Warfare Project, and host of the Urban Warfare Project podcast. He is also a founding member of the International Working Group on Subterranean Warfare. John served 25 years in the U.S. Army, having held ranks from Private to Sergeant First Class and Second Lieutenant to Major. He was an active duty Army officer during two combat tours in Iraq.
His research focuses on military operations in dense urban areas, megacities, and urban and subterranean warfare. Spencer holds a Master of Policy Management from Georgetown University, and his writings have appeared in the Time magazine, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and many other publications. He is considered one of the world’s leading experts on urban warfare and has served as an advisor to everyone from top four-star generals to world leaders. He is the coauthor of "Understanding Urban Warfare."
Website: www.johnspenceronline.com
Twitter: @SpencerGuard
May 7, 2024
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17 авг 2024

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Комментарии : 1,4 тыс.   
@philteale6658
@philteale6658 3 месяца назад
This is perhaps the most valuable contribution to the conversation about Israel-Gaza since October 7th. Thank you Sam for making this interview publicly available. I hope many people listen to it with an open mind
@jmc5335
@jmc5335 3 месяца назад
You need to listen to other people Phil. Try Ezra Klein
@UmaU-pg1mx
@UmaU-pg1mx 3 месяца назад
Daniel Maté, a composer-lyricist, who is also Jewish, in his response to Brené Brown on Gaza: "They [the resistence] are the ones who deserve our respect, our alliagence, or at least our decency to shut the f* up and not condemn them until we understand their material conditions"
@Renwa82
@Renwa82 3 месяца назад
@@jmc5335Sure, listen to Ezra Klein (an expert of nothing) or an expert on urban warfare... Hmmm.. tough choice
@Renwa82
@Renwa82 3 месяца назад
@@UmaU-pg1mxMatè is a psychopath
@acpote
@acpote 3 месяца назад
Lol
@jamesleonard7248
@jamesleonard7248 3 месяца назад
Thank you for no pay wall on this one. I’m too proud to get a free account and I’m struggling with money lately. I really do appreciate getting to hear this whole episode.
@asraarradon4115
@asraarradon4115 3 месяца назад
I understand that. I've been wanting to get an account for almost 3 years, and just can't bring myself to ask for a handout.
@ArcadianGenesis
@ArcadianGenesis 3 месяца назад
​@asraarradon4115 You don't even have to ask. You literally just press a button on the website. I hesitated for a while, but there was nothing to it.
@Sylar-451
@Sylar-451 3 месяца назад
​@@asraarradon4115 Sam and likely most of his team will be more than fine with it, and also they'll understand you couldn't have done otherwise 😂
@dieseIboy
@dieseIboy 3 месяца назад
They offer it for a reason. They understand some people are going through difficult finical times. Don’t be too proud.
@MaxG-jk8ty
@MaxG-jk8ty 3 месяца назад
I can afford it and opt for the free subscription. Been doing it for years. The content isn't worth the money and I feel no obligation to enrich those with more money than me. There isn't a single podcast worth paying for that I'm aware of besides Dan Carlin's Hardcore History.
@chazlewis8114
@chazlewis8114 3 месяца назад
Sadly, the people who need to hear this the most won't listen to it.
@jg5050
@jg5050 3 месяца назад
They don't want to hear it and it wouldn't matter if they did.
@amarissimus29
@amarissimus29 3 месяца назад
The people who need to hear this most are actually the people who will forget all this the second something more interesting comes along. That is to say, they don't need to hear it. Those who really do need to know it already do know it. The politicians. And we all know exactly why they are pretending to not know the reality of the situation. Gross.
@_munkykok_
@_munkykok_ 3 месяца назад
Who are those people?
@rogerpattube
@rogerpattube 3 месяца назад
Yeah well he’s got TDS
@FinHammer
@FinHammer 3 месяца назад
​@hakanaydn8005 please elaborate?
@Abcnz1989
@Abcnz1989 3 месяца назад
I pray this interview goes viral. I have been in shock for 6 months that so many people could believe a brutal war against terrorists who use human shields is somehow now a genocide. The obsessive hate people have for the IDF while ignoring and excusing Hamas is insane.
@b12deficient24
@b12deficient24 3 месяца назад
So you think that indiscriminately killing these human shields to get at these terrorists is justified? You do realize the human shields are mostly women and children that don’t want to die right?
@lottie4321
@lottie4321 3 месяца назад
I’m with you on that exactly
@John-bravooo
@John-bravooo 3 месяца назад
​@@b12deficient24there's no indiscriminate killingm
@atlehman69
@atlehman69 3 месяца назад
Dude it's not one or the other. We can condemn both Hamas and the IDF. The fact is, the IDF is killing 30x more innocent life than Hamas. Their war crimes are endless. It just happens to be that one group's war crimes are obvious savagery, while the other group's are more complex and hidden from view, but they are still egregious war crimes nonetheless!
@John-bravooo
@John-bravooo 3 месяца назад
@@atlehman69 did you even watch the video? Obviously not. Oct 7th was first degree murder. War on Hamas isn't murder. Arabs killed 7 Jews a minute. Are 7 Arabs dying a minute? No. If Israel was like Hamas there'd be no Arabs alive "Endless war crimes" is rhetoric. You're just a Jew hating pro-Hamas bigot...
@tuliteitel850
@tuliteitel850 3 месяца назад
Its so refreshing hearing someone, who actually knows what he's talking about.
@NPCMii
@NPCMii 3 месяца назад
Especially when they validate your world view.
@psmorgan2542
@psmorgan2542 3 месяца назад
My world view flipped 180 after spending years in a debate group with pro-Palestinian activists. I’ve been on both sides of the fence and spent significant time listening to all sides. After that deliberation I came to the conclusion this world view best reflected reality.
@EpicLemonMusic
@EpicLemonMusic 3 месяца назад
@@NPCMiiYou are a Russian bot, look at your bot-like comment history. Trash takes abound
@Re3iRtH
@Re3iRtH 3 месяца назад
Because this was one of the few non-far left guests he brought on.
@theobvious1958
@theobvious1958 3 месяца назад
Some facts: US military war fatalities: WW1: 116 000 WW2: 405 400 Korean war: 38 680 Vietnam war: 58 220 Afghanistan war: 2370 Iraq war: 4500
@daviday87
@daviday87 3 месяца назад
Thank you for sharing this outside of the paywall. I’ve been following John Spencer for years, and he is undoubtedly one of the most well-informed & intellectually honest analysts regarding urban warfare.
@gking407
@gking407 3 месяца назад
“We just want a ceasefire” says the protestor pretending it is the responsibility of one side to “just stop fighting”
@tooitchy
@tooitchy 3 месяца назад
They literally started a war with Israel, now them and their useful idiots are crying when they get a bloody nose.
@TerryBenzie
@TerryBenzie 3 месяца назад
This is among the most useful discussions that I've heard since the initial weeks following the terrorist attack and the most in-depth discussion I've encountered about the specifics of what's happening on the ground in Gaza. Thank you for posting it outside of the paywall so that as many people as possible are able to hear.
@NPCMii
@NPCMii 3 месяца назад
Shame it’s all IDF propaganda
@apatrid4727
@apatrid4727 3 месяца назад
You obviously prefer terrorist propaganda ​@@NPCMii
@psmorgan2542
@psmorgan2542 3 месяца назад
@@NPCMii Are you going to cite anything?
@psmorgan2542
@psmorgan2542 3 месяца назад
@@NPCMii You're unironically an NPC
@twntwrs
@twntwrs 3 месяца назад
​@@psmorgan2542Noooo, ad hom so soon?
@momma_goose
@momma_goose 3 месяца назад
Great podcast - I recommend it to all sane, well adjusted, non social media captured, or religiously compromised folks. Hopefully the world wakes up
@valley3983
@valley3983 3 месяца назад
All you’re getting is israeli state sponsored propaganda
@UmaU-pg1mx
@UmaU-pg1mx 3 месяца назад
Daniel Maté, a composer-lyricist, who is also Jewish, in his response to Brené Brown on Gaza: "They [the resistence] are the ones who deserve our respect, our alliagence, or at least our decency to shut the f* up and not condemn them until we understand their material conditions"
@briandowney9913
@briandowney9913 3 месяца назад
This conversation needs to be broadcast on primetime! Unfortunately, that won't happen. I'll be sharing this with as many as possible! Thank you!
@everythingandmore5537
@everythingandmore5537 3 месяца назад
At minute 1:15:00 they talked about idf killing 4 teenagers walking along without any RPGs or any weapons. Spencer says since idf targeted the teenagers who were not carry any weapons the idf must be correct. Let's say they were soldiers without any weapons, thus defenseless can be killed? Both Spencer and Sam are dumb!
@everythingandmore5537
@everythingandmore5537 3 месяца назад
At minute 1:22:00 they are talking about the day after when no more rockets from Gaza. How is Israel going to control 2 million Gazans. Normally for prisions there is 1 guard for every 10 prisoner. So for Gaza a population of 2 million needs a 200k IDF forces to patrol. Let's say each soldier is paid the minimum salary of USD 10 per hour. Which comes to 10x10x365= USD 36 500 per year. For 200k idf soldiers it comes to USD7.3 billion a year. The US Congress will definitely pass the bill.
@John-bravooo
@John-bravooo 3 месяца назад
​@everythingandmore5537 huh? What are you talking about? Israel administered gaza for 50 years they didn't need 200k soldiers lol.
@ef2718
@ef2718 3 месяца назад
@@John-bravoooAll correct, just to be accurate 2005-1967=38.
@ef2718
@ef2718 3 месяца назад
@@everythingandmore5537 1. It is not a prison. 2. Israel is provided with USA made weapons, it does not get any cash money.
@Oldzkule
@Oldzkule 3 месяца назад
The difference between a terrorist attack and an invasion in terms of perception was very striking.
@ghosthunter0950
@ghosthunter0950 3 месяца назад
The biggest crime of the international community is the fact that they made Hamas's strategy of using Human shields not only a viable strategy but also an acceptable one.
@b12deficient24
@b12deficient24 3 месяца назад
So it’s a “crime” when the international community supposedly doesn’t call out the human shield tactics (many do)…but it’s not a crime when the IDF kills civilians being used as said human shields? Got it.
@Resenbrink
@Resenbrink 3 месяца назад
What can the international community do about that which the Palestinians themselves have not?
@deborahfreedman333
@deborahfreedman333 3 месяца назад
@@Resenbrink They could condemn those who use human shields, rather than pretend it is the fault of those Hamas attacked.
@domsnow6418
@domsnow6418 3 месяца назад
@@deborahfreedman333 they do. Even biased organizations like AI have consistently condemned them for it. It‘s just like the Hamas supporting keyboard warriors and university arab cosplayers are very selective in their recognition of what AI condemns.
@ef2718
@ef2718 3 месяца назад
*Some samples of LAST 20 years:* Nigeria Boko Haram 350,000 dead Sudan JEM/Darfur 300,000 dead Yemen vs Houthis 233,000 dead Pakistan vs Islamists 50,000 dead Syria 500,000 dead South Sudan's 400,000 dead Ethiopia and Eritrea vs Tigray 600,000 dead No protests for all these dead. They are not about people in Gaza, the demonstrations knowingly and unknowingly are in service of other interests. International players play for their interests. The international western democracies which are those you actually refer to, suffer from an inherent deficiency of democracies, where the government usually relies on 50%+ of votes , and gaining that + or - depends on a fringe percentage of voters, the loyal base stays loyal and the fringe voters get the power.
@unclescar5616
@unclescar5616 3 месяца назад
Hamas doesn't have 200 hostages. They have 2 million.
@zilefn9212
@zilefn9212 3 месяца назад
I'm afraid that is not true. We know that many, many Gazans followed Hamas into southern Israel on 7 Oct to loot. We know many in Gaza were openly celebrating the death and kidnapping of Israelis. We know from released hostages that Gazan civilians were holding them as hostage slaves at their homes, starving them in front of children. We know that Egypt has built a big fat wall to prevent Gazans from being able to enter Egypt. We know that every single poll taken in Gaza shows a huge level of support for Hamas. I don't know if those polls are full of false replies. But even without relying on polls at all, we have plenty of evidence to show huge numbers of Gazans support Hamas.
@user-gy1pu3gq3d
@user-gy1pu3gq3d 3 месяца назад
You thought you cooked with this.
@ownthelibs
@ownthelibs 3 месяца назад
No they voted Hamas in
@RobespierreThePoof
@RobespierreThePoof 3 месяца назад
They had two million human shields and expendable assets, in their view.
@ghosthunter0950
@ghosthunter0950 3 месяца назад
@@zilefn9212 Yes you're right. it seems like over 70% of them support such acts. so I would estimate 15-30% of the population being hostage to Hamas and the rest of the populations either ignorance or malice.
@silas1414
@silas1414 3 месяца назад
That was an incredibly important episode that provided much needed clarity and insight. It could have massive positive impact if enough minds encounter it. Share it as much as you can everyone.
@valley3983
@valley3983 3 месяца назад
It’s anti human israeli propaganda and nothing more bro
@Aijan100
@Aijan100 3 месяца назад
What a fantastic speaker. So relevant today with his field of expertise. I listened to him on another podcast but it’s a whole different level with Sam as a host. It’s saddening that such unbiased and important conversations don’t get the deserved attention and hundreds of thousands of views.
@dant3175
@dant3175 2 месяца назад
Literally just a paid Israeli propagandist
@crome2194
@crome2194 3 месяца назад
I've heard John Spencer elsewhere, but this interview stands out because of the quality of the questions and the generous duration of the conversation.
@angeatgr
@angeatgr 3 месяца назад
It also because Sam Harris unlike most podcasters and journalist masters the art of listening.
@kmg474
@kmg474 3 месяца назад
It was basically an IDF press release 🇵🇸
@piege2
@piege2 3 месяца назад
@@kmg474 No, it was a lecture from a person who knows much more about war than you do. And if you were smart enough, you would have listened and think, but you are unable to make your brainwashed head to do so.
@kmg474
@kmg474 3 месяца назад
@piege2 Sure, he knows lots about war. The point is, there shouldn't be a war. Especially not one that is being almost exclusively waged against women and children.
@piege2
@piege2 3 месяца назад
@@kmg474 interesting. And where all the men have disappeared, or maybe Gaza consists only of women and children? Or maybe Israeli bombs are so smart that they fall only on the heads of women and children? Does it seem logical to you? By the way, there are updated figures from UN regarding the death toll with details how many different groups are killed and the numbers of women and children have been drastically reduced, but you keep relying on the pro-palestinian propaganda still and spread BS.
@dronessential
@dronessential 3 месяца назад
Some people say that Hamas did what they did as an act of resistance... I support Ukraine 101%. However, if they broke into Russia and did what Hamas did on October 7th, and Zelenski and the Ukrainian people supported this, I would be the first to stop being on their side. What I don't understand is how some westerners don't have this compulsion when it comes to October 7th, an obvious act of pure evil.
@vvggg12
@vvggg12 3 месяца назад
Really good point
@andrewm4767
@andrewm4767 3 месяца назад
Do you view October 7th as an isolated incident?
@Mac-ku3xu
@Mac-ku3xu 3 месяца назад
Ukraine was behind the concert hall massacre in Russia. But... Stay Home, Wash Your Hands, Support Ukraine.
@dronessential
@dronessential 3 месяца назад
​@@Mac-ku3xuhah good one :)
@apatrid4727
@apatrid4727 3 месяца назад
​@@Mac-ku3xuhow do you know this?
@major943
@major943 3 месяца назад
As an Army veteran, it was excellent to listen to someone who understands what is happening in this war. This needs to go viral.
@AHeroicDeath
@AHeroicDeath 3 месяца назад
People simply do not understand the reality of violence, and thus have wildly unrealistic expectations. This is the same problem we have with videos getting out of violent interactions between the police and people resisting arrest--the average person on the street sees the video and asks "why didn't the police just shoot him in the leg instead of killing him?" Because they only know the sanitized violence of super hero movies.
@exoxy
@exoxy 3 месяца назад
This was eye opening. Thank you Sam
@sherylbusch5853
@sherylbusch5853 3 месяца назад
Yes, Israel is losing the PR war in the West. That worries me.
@Mac-ku3xu
@Mac-ku3xu 3 месяца назад
Always hard to sell mass murder isn't it.
@Giantcrabz
@Giantcrabz 3 месяца назад
no amount of PR can cover up genocide
@giltuito1545
@giltuito1545 3 месяца назад
Because the west's left is self-loathing and is controlling important institutions. Add that to the millions of Muslims allowed to enter the west over the past few decades - and you get a recipe for disaster.
@BanjoSick
@BanjoSick 3 месяца назад
What worries me is that I don’t understand why and how
@MoonBerryShrimp
@MoonBerryShrimp 3 месяца назад
Crazy to think that cutting food and water from millions of people might make you look bad. 🤔
@jasonb.9167
@jasonb.9167 3 месяца назад
Really great podcast! Thank you gentlemen!
@justgivemethetruth
@justgivemethetruth 3 месяца назад
This is a worthwhile fascinating discussion on the situation in Israel. Thanks Sam, your videos/podcasts are always great.
@brendajstevens3719
@brendajstevens3719 3 месяца назад
Excellent discussion. I just wish others would open their minds as to what’s going on. 🙏🇬🇧🙏🇬🇧🙏🇬🇧
@DaveKesler
@DaveKesler 3 месяца назад
Sam Harris is an American treasure. Priceless podcast yet again. John Spencer is informed and superb.
@venicebeachsportsnetwork6677
@venicebeachsportsnetwork6677 3 месяца назад
Also a member of the people who benefit from defense spending and war so very very biased
@Goku65027
@Goku65027 3 месяца назад
He is anti Christian
@willdon.1279
@willdon.1279 2 месяца назад
@@venicebeachsportsnetwork6677 But can you suggest how any country would respond to the attack? I thought it was great in 1990 when it seemed we could all disarm, and spend on general benefit... Or all these attacks imaginary? I really would like your thoughts.
@venicebeachsportsnetwork6677
@venicebeachsportsnetwork6677 2 месяца назад
@@willdon.1279 probably not level the infrastructure and buildings of a population of 2 million when Israel gives them like 3 bulldozers for the whole strip. And, that doesn't even get into the fact that they are just making more terrorists. So yeah, not what they ate doing
@PBJT292
@PBJT292 3 месяца назад
Truly an unprecedented war an difficult to compare. Hezbollah and the Iranian Quds force complicate an already massively complex war. Israel can not over commit forces against Hamas lest these other adversaries be given tactical advantage should they choose to attack. The nature of potential indirect attacks by artillery weapons demands that Israel reserve enough forces to counter attack all the while fighting in terrain that demands massive amounts of manpower to overpower the enemy.
@blondiegreeneyes4802
@blondiegreeneyes4802 3 месяца назад
I feel so damn sorry for Israelis. And Jews around the world.
@Gsd112
@Gsd112 3 месяца назад
This was so informative and really put into word’s what I’ve been feeling about the misconceptions. Love Sam he’s one of the smartest men alive.
@kmg474
@kmg474 3 месяца назад
😂😂😂😂😂😂
@SMLTPerry
@SMLTPerry 3 месяца назад
I don’t think there is a more qualified person to speak about the way Israel is prosecuting this war in an objective manner. Excellent choice for a guest. Also important to note that it was very intelligent of Sam to not put this episode behind a paywall. It allows far more people to become educated on how to view the war during a time where there is a lot of confusion around the way Israel is prosecuting the war response. I just hope this gets out to as many people as possible. Well done.
@jmc5335
@jmc5335 3 месяца назад
What makes you think that a man who tells you that Fatah is a terrorist organisation is qualified or objective
@SMLTPerry
@SMLTPerry 3 месяца назад
@@jmc5335 read the guys resume…
@ninakegelman8891
@ninakegelman8891 3 месяца назад
The line “it seems like all of the sudden billions of people are just now realizing that war is horrible” gagged me- i think that’s exactly a factor we’re underestimating; the social mediafication of war and flooding of imagery and misinformation is making people respond in outrage in a way that’s very unique to this time 😬
@peterthegreat996
@peterthegreat996 3 месяца назад
People have been saying war is horrible forever . That statement was a bs line he threw out to wow us . He’s so full of shit on that point. He is however accurate on how all of the sudden - a proportional response . Also - where were all these students 4 months ago ? Additionally most of the anti Israel left hates the country and for the most part the US. Many leftest don’t even think Israel should exist let alone defend itself . Ffs Aaron Mate said as much.
@oremfrien
@oremfrien Месяц назад
There has actually been research on the domestic US reaction to the Korean War and comparing it to the domestic US reaction to the Vietnam War. One of the fundamental distinctions between Korea and Vietnam is that there was no "on-the-ground" media in Korea and so people objected less to it because they didn't see how horrible the situation was. By contrast, the constant color footage from Vietnam was key in galvanizing a strong anti-war movement. This is the same issue on steroids.
@juliarosenberg6088
@juliarosenberg6088 3 месяца назад
Thanks for helping me understand what's happening.
@JamesKLambert
@JamesKLambert 3 месяца назад
Thank you for this very informative guest! I wish more people would seek out the facts, but at least you have made them easier to find.
@Ghupaloy42
@Ghupaloy42 3 месяца назад
Thank you Sam. Your work is valuable.
@freshfalcon3996
@freshfalcon3996 3 месяца назад
I'm curious about something no one ever seems to ask about the Gaza health ministry: where actually IS this organization?? If most of Gaza has been destroyed, how is the health ministry still fully functional and able to give their minute-by-minute updates?
@max_mittler
@max_mittler 3 месяца назад
Reading the Wikipedia page for GHM now. They are a branch of the Hamas government, and are therefore physically based in the tunnels and hideouts of the organizations. They were previously functioning as a network of health professionals in now destroyed hospitals. It’s been shown that around 50% of their data is procured indirectly from un-cited “reliable media sources”. Furthermore around 35% of their mortality claims are based on “incomplete data”.
@deborahfreedman333
@deborahfreedman333 3 месяца назад
Easy to do, when numbers are fabricated.
@domsnow6418
@domsnow6418 3 месяца назад
It is not. They make up numbers.
@Aleksamson
@Aleksamson 3 месяца назад
I imagine there's no office building or permanent address, likewise for bunch of other "institutions" It's probably just some guys who are the Ministry of this and that. One day they "work" behind some kitchen table next day the ministry has a meeting -session in a bunker next to a room where hostages are being held. We have probably different idea what "functional" means :)
@ef2718
@ef2718 3 месяца назад
Do you remember the 500 assumed dead at al Ahli hospital? Their number was never subtracted from the overall.
@margaretwinson402
@margaretwinson402 3 месяца назад
Voices of reason. Much appreciated!
@Jayx0x5
@Jayx0x5 3 месяца назад
This needs to go viral.
@joge2468
@joge2468 3 месяца назад
John Spencer is a deontologist living in a simplistic, utilitarian world. He is 100% correct ethically, though he only hinted at his views in this interview. The most important moral question we should be asking is: What does the world look like if Hamas’s tactics are normalized - where attacking (civilians or military targets) and then falling back behind and under your own civilians is a legitimate way to fight a war and avoid consequences? Is this a world any of us want to live in? Utilitarians approach the issue as one of the absolute numbers of fatalities or the civilian to combatant ratio. While the latter is somewhat useful in gauging how careful an army is being, fatality figures are the wrong way of looking at war. There is no number or ratio above which a war becomes immoral. Protect the enemy’s civilians as best you can while minimizing the risk to your own people. That’s it.
@teresabaptista7016
@teresabaptista7016 3 месяца назад
Great talk. Shalom, from Lisbon.
@b12deficient24
@b12deficient24 3 месяца назад
It’s ironic that you say “shalom” when Jews are doing anything but perpetuating peace in the world.
@fairlinda1
@fairlinda1 3 месяца назад
Two incredible men discussing the unthinkable. I am British but i would be proud to have Americans like this. Thank you Sam and John.
@blondiegreeneyes4802
@blondiegreeneyes4802 3 месяца назад
I love the British.
@da-be-ju
@da-be-ju 3 месяца назад
Gulllible.
@alfonso1455
@alfonso1455 3 месяца назад
Thank you. Thanks also for making whole conversation available. I deeply appreciate all you do and offer the world, Sam.
@TruthMattersOfficial
@TruthMattersOfficial 3 месяца назад
Educated, rational analysis by one of the world's top experts. Thank you.
@zorahanapolsky6503
@zorahanapolsky6503 3 месяца назад
Thank you for bringing the voice of one of the leading urban warfare experts of our time
@Eduardo_Ventura
@Eduardo_Ventura 3 месяца назад
Quite a class. You learn more on this podcast than anywhere else on internet about the subject.
@bandolin1216
@bandolin1216 3 месяца назад
I wonder how many University protestors would continue their protests if they were forced to watch every video recorded by Hamas during their invasion of Israel on Oct. 7.
@domsnow6418
@domsnow6418 3 месяца назад
I‘m sure many of them would revel in their antisemitic glee
@b12deficient24
@b12deficient24 3 месяца назад
You can protest the ongoing humanitarian crisis without supporting Hamas.
@SiRushBass
@SiRushBass 3 месяца назад
And if they watching videos of the treatment of Palestinians over the last 75 years? The death and subjugation going on as we speak in the west bank? Don't close your eyes to the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians
@deborahfreedman333
@deborahfreedman333 3 месяца назад
They will what-about everything, and deny the video is accurate or true. Theirs is an emotional argument, they are believers in their cause, and facts will not shift their disgusting beliefs.
@domsnow6418
@domsnow6418 3 месяца назад
@@deborahfreedman333 Right. Even if you consider Gaza to be an occupied territory, even if you acknowledge the legitimacy of armed resistance against occupation, nowhere in international law is the deliberate slaughter of civilians ever justified.
@devalapar7878
@devalapar7878 3 месяца назад
If you take Hamas numbers, the ratio is 1 Hamas to 4 civilians. Even that is a good ratio for an urban battle. Again, we don't look at that ratio. If the numbers of soldiers stay constant, then the ratio depends only on the population size. If the population is big, the ratio is big. If the population is small, the ratio is small. That's why we look at demographic ratio. What percentage of civilians were killed? What percentage of soldiers were killed? Those are the correct questions. I don't know why, but most people make that math mistake.
@SiRushBass
@SiRushBass 3 месяца назад
When you consider that'hamas' constitutes the entire civilian infrastructure in Gaza, functionaries, government, utilities.... That number takes on an even worse level. Also, what f***ING insane level of inhumane, zero empathy can you have when you talk about 4:1 ratio being just fine. That amounts to roughly 28,000 people dead. Where is your humanity?!
@deeky1239
@deeky1239 3 месяца назад
​@@SiRushBassits more than fine comparetively to any war previouslu fought. Its more than fine when Hamas are deliberately trying to incur more civilian deaths for optics by not letting people leave areas and not providing bomb shelters. The ratio is much closer to 1 in 2 in.amy case, Hamas is lying about those numbers dont be ridiculous.
@John-bravooo
@John-bravooo 3 месяца назад
​@@SiRushBasshumanity? Lol. Who converts schools to missile factories and uses children as combatants? 200,000 russians killed in ukraine, where is your humanity?
@willdon.1279
@willdon.1279 2 месяца назад
@@SiRushBass He didn't, and nobody says it is fine! There have been no wars throughout human history, when the civilians have not suffered most. They are just helpless, in 90% of the time. (and in Gaza, specifically excluded from the deep shelters, unlike Israelis) So you believe the latter are guilty because they look after their people. And not use them as victims to convince silly people anyone attacked should just surrender.
@SiRushBass
@SiRushBass 2 месяца назад
@@willdon.1279 "a good ratio,,,". And then you go on to argue that it's ok
@Johnwilkinsonofficial
@Johnwilkinsonofficial 3 месяца назад
difficult to overstate just how needed this discussion is. seperate but sadly related question, Sam have you had any luck in securing Dan Stone for a conversation ?
@jacobszekely4069
@jacobszekely4069 3 месяца назад
Thank you Sam for another incredible podcast! This is incredible
@MuMill24
@MuMill24 3 месяца назад
Very important episode. Thank you for being a voice of moral clarity in a world gone mad!!!
@user-gm8mz8mb9g
@user-gm8mz8mb9g 3 месяца назад
I think it was the best podcast I've heard on this topic
@amandajephson9964
@amandajephson9964 3 месяца назад
Everyone needs to hear this!
@richardmacnaughton2526
@richardmacnaughton2526 3 месяца назад
They say that Hamas planned to maximize the loss of Gazans as a war strategy. Duh, that was the first thing I recognized as soon as I heard about the Oct 7th pogrom -- The Palestinians have used this tactic for decades, but Hamas developed it to its highest capacity. For Hamas, the goal is to exterminate Jews, not to provide a decent life for Gazans. The deaths of Gazans was considered a wise plan of war which would please Allah. For Hamas, the role Gazan civilians were designated to play was horrible injuries and gruesome deaths to garner public opinion which would force Israel not to retaliate.
@S-tank_
@S-tank_ 3 месяца назад
Usually it takes me 14 days to listen to one of his videos cuz I have to pause every 4 seconds to look up words. Smooth brains like me appreciate small words videos like this
@blondiegreeneyes4802
@blondiegreeneyes4802 3 месяца назад
I think you are way too hard on yourself.
@sunnyinvladivostok
@sunnyinvladivostok 3 месяца назад
Small words, but exactly well explained.
@briancunning423
@briancunning423 3 месяца назад
@samharris please interview someone who holds a different view rather than someone who you already agree with. While it might be comforting to hear John Spencer confidently state that there hasn't been a single instant where an Israeli soldier unlawfully killed a civilian, we the listeners, have no idea what he is basing that on!? Just nodding along and accepting that as fact is doing nothing to inform the public. The way he says things like "We need to fight for the narrative". Clearly shows his bias.
@da-be-ju
@da-be-ju 3 месяца назад
Exactly. Thanks for saying that.
@Veritas891
@Veritas891 3 месяца назад
Agree completely.
@ChucksSEADnDEAD
@ChucksSEADnDEAD 2 месяца назад
He didn't say that, you're acting in bad faith.
@briancunning423
@briancunning423 2 месяца назад
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD You can demonstrate you are not acting in bad faith by reading these quotes from the transcript and then withdrawing your comment. 27:49 we you know war is a contest of will we have to fight what the narrative 38:00 to all the classified information said there's based on their investigation there is zero evidence of a single event in which Israel intentionally caused harm to civilians journalists
@lukerenner134
@lukerenner134 3 месяца назад
I’m a Christian conservative. I find myself listening to Sam Harris fairly often. Out of curiosity- how many of his listeners are in the same boat?
@beattzzz
@beattzzz 3 месяца назад
Nope, I’m an atheist lefty, but I enjoy open-minded, rational and calm discussions with anyone! Hope you have a great day 😊
@roysherwin9348
@roysherwin9348 3 месяца назад
Same, but just on this subject
@lukerenner134
@lukerenner134 3 месяца назад
@@beattzzz You too! My guess is his listeners have a lot of viewpoints/perspectives, but almost all are open-minded.
@lukerenner134
@lukerenner134 3 месяца назад
@@roysherwin9348 I listen to almost all of his podcasts on this subject and listen to a minority of his podcasts on other subjects. I’m curious- Are you a Trump supporter? Have you listened to his videos where he discusses Trump?
@roysherwin9348
@roysherwin9348 3 месяца назад
@lukerenner134 I would like to see Vivek R. or Ron DeSantis in the White House. No, I haven't listened to those podcasts.
@glennmitchell9107
@glennmitchell9107 3 месяца назад
An invasion implies Hamas forces intended to occupy those areas they over ran. October 7th was a raid, the apparent goals which were to obtain hostages and incite a reprisal from the IDF. Mission accomplished.
@patriciakimball8150
@patriciakimball8150 3 месяца назад
I don’t see why Israel should worry more about Palestinians than about Israeli soldiers. Or why Israel shouldn’t simply reclaim Gaza altogether.
@domsnow6418
@domsnow6418 3 месяца назад
Because that would be against international law. Gaza has to be part of a Palestinian state if we are in accordance with the law. Just not under Hamas rule of course.
@infidelheretic923
@infidelheretic923 3 месяца назад
​@@domsnow6418 Neither Gaza nor the west Bank are independent states right now. And they probably never will be.
@vineflower
@vineflower 3 месяца назад
I hope you would seriously discuss this being a genocide. It is not an invasion.
@davidmc8475
@davidmc8475 3 месяца назад
Open a dictionary for heavens sake it is not a genocide. Also Hamas is not trustworthy. UN Halves Its Estimate of Women and Children Killed in Gaza The UN cut in half its estimates of the number of women and children killed in Gaza. The estimates were based on Hamas numbers and are a reminder that all fatality estimates coming from that source are unreliable. [Source: Council on Foreign Relations]
@AlonElishkov
@AlonElishkov 3 месяца назад
Amazing. An actual discussion with an actual expert with concrete experience on the matter at hand and similar events in the past. Must watch for every youtuber.
@AnubisYB
@AnubisYB 3 месяца назад
Thank you Sam for releasing the full episode so we can share. Excellent episode, I wish more in the west had your moral clarity.
@hinahinananoha7783
@hinahinananoha7783 3 месяца назад
The protesters demand "ceasefire", but not hostages being freed😮
@Gabriel-pt6tq
@Gabriel-pt6tq 3 месяца назад
And shouting Globalize the Intifada simultaneously. SMH😂
@mrt445
@mrt445 3 месяца назад
Sam needs to interview Mosab Hassan Yousef.
@willdon.1279
@willdon.1279 2 месяца назад
It's hard to understand how vast numbers in the West do not understand the existential threat, not just to Israel, but to all decent values humanity is, has, over centuries, stumbling it's way to. Of course, on the way, even the best of us will never be perfect, but how such large masses have, and still, support the alternative, worst of our species. Hamas, only the latest, glorified - often specifically, always indirectly, seems to have plumbed unimaginable depths. In my radical youth, we marched to support the likes of Stalin, Mao, but without the information people today have. The fact that Netanyahu and his regime are such an unappealing lot is sad, but irrelevant. No country, group, suffering the October invasion could have responded otherwise. All, much more savagely.
@nicolasbascunan4013
@nicolasbascunan4013 3 месяца назад
Sam, please be like Hitchens: debate anyone!, even the "Tucker Carlsons", the "Tommy Robinsons", etc.. From the far-left to the far-right, from atheist to believers. Only honest and open dialogue will save us from this global insanity.
@toby9999
@toby9999 3 месяца назад
This has to be the best, non biased, balanced, nuanced discussion on the Hamas war to date. Thank you for making the full conversation available.
@jenniferchisholm-hoibraten3597
@jenniferchisholm-hoibraten3597 2 месяца назад
Everybody should hear this. One of the most clear sighted, objective and sensible discussions about the Gaza war on the entire internet. Thank you to Sam Harris for making this available to everyone. A genuine public service in a time of turmoil and mental/moral chaos.
@Falcordog1212
@Falcordog1212 3 месяца назад
Oh wow... The pristine clarity - morally, factually, historically, technically, militarily, geo-politically.... I'd donate everything and anything of value, monetarily or otherwise for this most precious gem of truth to be aired 24/7 on every single information platform on the planet and live out the rest of my life in blissful poverty. If only I wasn't already as poor as one can be :( Blessings on both of you - true and honest gentlemen.
@jmc5335
@jmc5335 3 месяца назад
You make the perfect peasant
@Falcordog1212
@Falcordog1212 3 месяца назад
@@jmc5335 I'll be taking that as a compliment irrespective of the intention
@jmc5335
@jmc5335 3 месяца назад
@@Falcordog1212 Doffing your cap to the lords as they scoff at you. What makes you think that a man who blames Jews for their own genocide and a man who calls Fatah a terrorist organisation have the moral, factual, historical and geo-political clarity you claim they have?
@Falcordog1212
@Falcordog1212 3 месяца назад
@@jmc5335 Awww... The truth really hurts once you realise you've been living a lie. No biggie. You'll get over it. Overcoming denial is indeed the most challenging phase. I wish you nothing but goodness on your path ahead. That said, relinquishing hate requires a concious choice. Goodness and hate cannot coexist by definition. Up to you hey...
@Falcordog1212
@Falcordog1212 3 месяца назад
@@jmc5335 The answer to that is simple. I not only studied the intricate complexities of the conflict, the historical facts against the plethora of falsities, the theological/cultural depth, all the way down to the nuances and differences between the many tribes (large family groups), their affiliations and interactions vis-à-vis others, as well as the individual regimes, sectarian animosities and so much more.... I spent half my life residing in the mideast. So I kinda know stuff. My reaction to the podcast was such a huge surprise only because every single aspect raised was absolutely spot on. It was the most accurate analysis broadcasted to western audience I've ever encountered. Massive kudos to Sam for his uncompromising dedication to truth. Political correctness is synonymous with blatantly lying. And that's precisely the reason so many in the west are absolutely clueless.
@intoxicatedchocobo8370
@intoxicatedchocobo8370 3 месяца назад
Refreshing to hear people speak to what’s obvious. Its hard to not think most media is deliberate info campaigns nowadays when such obviousness is ignored.
@andrewm4767
@andrewm4767 3 месяца назад
Like what?
@colamity_5000
@colamity_5000 3 месяца назад
I don't think this is obvious at all. Like i agree with what is being said, but we are talking about essentially the first war thats being live streamed and a bunch of young people with very limited historical knowledge are rightly horrified by what that looks like.
@Abcnz1989
@Abcnz1989 3 месяца назад
The media should know better. Their bias has been disturbing and disappointing.
@Wiapple128
@Wiapple128 2 месяца назад
I wish you would have commented on the refusal of all surrounding Muslim countries to accept even one Palestinian woman and child seeking safe haven from Gaza.
@gedaliaw
@gedaliaw 3 месяца назад
This is a very important conversation that will sadly not reach the audience that needs to listen. Thank though for making this available outside the paywall.
@Aijan100
@Aijan100 3 месяца назад
Best analysis of this war I have ever heard. This thinking should be a common place in the media. Astonishingly, the opposite is being the case,
@joshbedford4889
@joshbedford4889 3 месяца назад
Look, I am no apologist for Jihadis, but I recommend that Mr Harris does a deep dive into the anti-Palistinian "Night Squad" tactics pioneered by Orde Wingate during the Mandate period, and how those tactics informed Israeli operations against Palistinian villages in the 47-49 conflicts: Including Deir Yassin. I am not denying brutality Palistinians either, but if Sam Harris can't imagine Israelis intentionally targeting women and children, then I have to conclude he doesn't have a deep knowledge of the conflict.
@John-bravooo
@John-bravooo 3 месяца назад
Wtf? Some shit 75 years ago? What year is it?
@joshbedford4889
@joshbedford4889 3 месяца назад
@John-bravooo There is far more continuity than you think. It was in this era under the tutelage of the British that Ariel Sharon learned collective punishment against villages as a "small wars" tactic. This was on display in Sabra and Shatila massacres of '82 when Sharon was Defense Minister. Sharon was Prime Minister as recently as 2006, and was the one responsible for the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, and the West Bank barrier construction: the two things that have defined Israeli-Palistinian relationship for the last 20 years. (75 years was not very long ago, and lifetimes of individuals span eras. When those individuals gain political positions, they bring the philosophy gained in their life history with them, and it informs their policies)
@John-bravooo
@John-bravooo 3 месяца назад
@@joshbedford4889 sabra and shatilla was by ARABS lol. 75 years ago is a long time. See US warfighting behavior 75 years ago. Depraved. Miss me with your antisemitism. You know nothing about asymmetrical warfare. Israel is surrounded by barbarians who are held to no ethical standard.
@joshbedford4889
@joshbedford4889 3 месяца назад
Here is another bit of info: Assassination of Lord Moyne, attempted Assassination of President Truman, bombing of the King David hotel, ethnic cleansing of Deir Yassin. These were FOUNDING ACTIONS of the state of Israel of equal significance to Concord and Lexington 1775. How do you differentiate by any criteria, besides that of victory, these actions of precedent by Israel, and the Oct 7 incursion? Is it because Oct 7 is recent, and the assassination of Lord Moyne was only WW2 era action against an allied power?
@Dejavu_1101
@Dejavu_1101 3 месяца назад
Much needed episode. Thank you
@debbieshlider4987
@debbieshlider4987 3 месяца назад
Thank you for making this situation much more clear.
@lomotil3370
@lomotil3370 3 месяца назад
Great photo.
@5starcomment
@5starcomment 3 месяца назад
Whoever does his thumbnails needs a pay rise...
@discreetelite
@discreetelite 3 месяца назад
@@5starcommentit’s just a generic stock image of guys on a tank?
@dmalane
@dmalane 3 месяца назад
Civilian casualties have been a serious issues in many wars , from Hiroshima to Iraq
@infidelheretic923
@infidelheretic923 3 месяца назад
I wonder if we would have left Iraq years earlier if the media constantly whined about civilians killed in Iraq. Of course the majority died in the first month. What with all the bombings from the US.
@ecyranot
@ecyranot 3 месяца назад
I wish Sam had on someone with another point of view to argue against this person's points. But what he says makes sense. I have two things I'd question. One is the hostages. He says the hostages add an element that explains Israel's need to go in quickly and with overwhelming strength. If anything, the hostages adds a reason to wait and negotiate. I don't see any reason to think Israelis could "rescue" the hostages. They are in tunnels. The chances of going into a tunnel to rescue a hostage seems astronomically small to me. They will be killed if the tunnel is invaded. I could be wrong, but I'd bet very, very, very few hostages have been rescued. The ones who have survived were traded for Palestinian prisoners. So I don't think the hostages' presence suggests the need to go in with 2000 pound bombs, etc. He says part of the impetus to trade is military pressure. I doubt that. Israel has killed thousands and Hamas still holds hostages. Does he think they wouldn't have traded for Palestinian hostages if no 2000 pound bombs had been dropped? They traded to get the Palestinians back, many more than the hostages they took. And of course they can see that holding hostages is a public relations negative. The other comment s a general critique of Sam's take on the entire war. The atrocities done by civilians, if anything, suggest the problem with the entire enterprise of the existence of a Gaza STRIP. These people, perhaps somewhat through Hamas propaganda, have grown up learning to hate Israel. Some might be through schooling, but in general common sense tells me the hatred has built up over the years of one's life knowing the limitations of life in this strip, disconnected from other societies. So while the atrocities are horrific and suggest a cultural degradation, it also suggests a dehumanization of the Palestinians. They have dreamed of the day when THEY CAN EXERT SOME POWER, and October 7 was that moment. I can imagine feeling like a caged animal. I'm not sure what I'd be capable of. Finally, Sam likes to ask us to reverse the situation and imagine Israel acting in the way Hamas does. That only makes sense if you reverse the power dynamic. Israel has state of the art weapons. Hamas has slingshots in comparison. Israel has all the technical advantages. The Strip is THREE TIMES THE SIZE OF SAN FRANCISCO!!!! They're sitting ducks. The tunnels are an obvious necessity in combat with Israel. The hostages are an effort to gain power. Would Israelis, living in a strip the size of Gaza, ever use human shields, one asks. Probably not. Hamas is a perverted organization driven by religious fanaticism. For that they should be condemned. But the people of Gaza should not be.
@searsino
@searsino 3 месяца назад
Why justify oct 7th?
@harrynutzach307
@harrynutzach307 3 месяца назад
Then why doesn't Hamas let civilians hide and stay safe in the tunnels?
@RS-uh7rz
@RS-uh7rz 3 месяца назад
After the civilians are cleared from an area, tunnels and access shafts remain, lethal and hidden. The 2000 pound bombs destroy the access shafts, improving survivability of IDF troops operating in the neighborhood.
@b12deficient24
@b12deficient24 3 месяца назад
@@harrynutzach307Because Hamas is a terrorist regime. They don’t care about civilians. The very point OP is making is that Palestinian civilians have no chance in this conflict. They’re caught between the blades of stone-age fundamentalists and the 2,000 pound bombs of murderous Zionists.
@sennsita01
@sennsita01 3 месяца назад
Your second paragraph suggests Gazans are somehow unique in their level of suffering, so of course they would resort to barbarity. This is not true at all by historical standards. The Jews suffered more horrors by the Nazis, the Japanese suffered more horrors in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, yet people from both societies didn't go out to rape, torture, and murder Americans the first chance they got. They were not consumed by a deep rooted religious hatred and fanaticism. They focused on rebuilding their nations and reshaping their cultural identities. When Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 forcibly removing thousands of their own citizens, they left Gaza with greenhouses so the Gazans could build their economy by growing vegetables and flowers. The first thing the Gazans did was elect Hamas, burn down the greenhouses, and rip out water pipes to build rockets. This is a failed society more motivated by religious hatred than the flourishing of their own people. There is no bright line between Hamas and Palestinian society at large. They bear collective responsility for suppporting Hamas and Oct 7. If they refuse to live in peace with the only democratic state in the region, then they need to suffer the consequences as they are now.
@andredehaan6839
@andredehaan6839 3 месяца назад
John spenser was clear consice and knowledgeable. Good questions from Harris. Great podcast. Thanks!
@matthewknight6250
@matthewknight6250 3 месяца назад
By continuing to call a permanently built up neighborhood that's been there for 75 years a "Refugee Camp" you've got an automatic news headline baked in if its ever attacked. Very sneaky.
@Gabriel-pt6tq
@Gabriel-pt6tq 3 месяца назад
Ya for sure. If you search on RU-vid for "Gaza walking tour" there are videos from before this war, it's definitely not Beverly Hills but it's also definitely not a prison. Reminded me of Adana Turkey, cleaner and more organized than countless cities I've been to in India.
@LeslieBigos
@LeslieBigos 3 месяца назад
This should be required listening for any voting American.
@paulrussell1207
@paulrussell1207 3 месяца назад
It's great. Whilst this guy is stating what he knows to be true as fact, you know that nothing cloudy or uncertain could get through the Making Sense filter, purely by the fact that Sam Harris has had on his podcast, such a diversity of political perspectives on the issue, offering all kinds of contrary opinions to which he respectfully listens and debates. I think he has had on international relations expert Douglas Murray twice now, just for good measure. It is so refreshing that Sam Harris does this. I would hate it if he were to discount all alternative opinions as "moral confusion" and then just have on a succession of people who he agrees with, to throws lob ball questions to, and for him to just restate his opinions to 4 or 5 times over 8 months. Not Sam. I also think it's fresh that he on the one hand presents Hamas as a group of ideologically mad rogue bandits, which was my impression, but then accepts that their actions and the consequences they have on the 2 million people who live in Gaza, is a straight up moral comparison with the actions of Israel, a modern state with one of the most funded militaries in the world. It would be easy to think of the civilians of Gaza as victims of circumstance, and that given Israel's military superiority and potential harm they can do to those civilians, as an actor burdened with unique responsibility, but it's not true. There is no action they could take, less than the burning of Dresden or a bombing of Hiroshima that anybody can morally question, given the ideology of Hamas. Also in this age of disinformation, one could correctly identify that social media and the information landscape gives the potential for the over amplification of niche opinions and be concerned about that... but then to take that too far and decide that all opinions different than your own are purely examples of that phenomenon. Not Sam. He identified it but then proceeds to identify his own potential (unknown to him) blind spots and cautiously have on all kinds of guests. Including, as I mentioned, Douglas Murray twice now. A breath of fresh air! Keep up the good work!
@EzraB123
@EzraB123 3 месяца назад
Every media outlet in human history is biased and always will be. Sam's platform is no different. He takes a side, but at least he can articulate WHY he's on that side and defend it when challenged. He's literally famous because he debates people who oppose his views, theologians, Jihadist sympathizers, etc. If all he ever did was sit in an echo chamber, nobody would know who he is.
@paulrussell1207
@paulrussell1207 3 месяца назад
@@EzraB123 I totally agree, who was your favorite guest who opposes his views on Israel, since the war began? Mine was, as mentioned, Douglas Murray. On the episode with Szeps, Murray said of opponents to Israeli actions that they liked to compare Israel to the Nazis because it makes the holocaust seem more normal and that maybe we weren't so naughty after all." That was a really profound steelmanning. Really moving the debate forward from the usual podcastastan noise! But there is a few to pick from. Who did you like?
@EzraB123
@EzraB123 3 месяца назад
@paulrussell1207 Aside from John Spencer, I liked his talk with Yasmine Mohammed. I'm reading her book now. To answer your question, the person who is most at odds with Harris (that he invited) was Rory Stewart. If you go and watch that video, Rory calls him out and accuses him of bigotry. Sam still invited him and still engaged with him, even though they disagreed on a lot. But to be fair, he (nor anyone else) is under any obligation to invite people of her certain political demographic. Most podcasts and most media outlets are partially one-sided, partially echo chambers. I'm okay with Sam because he can he has a history of debating religion and politics publicly, and he's held his ground. Everyone is biased. Bias is fine, so as long as you can justify the views you hold.
@paulrussell1207
@paulrussell1207 3 месяца назад
@@EzraB123 I listened to it but they were mostly talking about the motivations of jihadism, not Israeli policy. Rory Stewart, despite his history, is very slimy and of a political background and it shows. It would be more interesting if spoke to somebody of a journalistic or a humanitarian background who was recently on ground in Gaza. I am not really sure what an obligation to have people on would really look like to be honest, so that's not really a claim anybody is making here. He is free to have on a guy who thinks he is Santa Claus if he so wishes, but certain guests will make better more useful content than others. I first discovered Sam Harris many, many years ago when he debated Cenk (whatever the guy from TYT is called) and it was clear that Cenk wasn't debating honestly. So I agree his debates were very useful and I like how he tested his ideas by having them in the past too. But since about 2019 or so, he has become so fixated with not "amplifying moral confusion" that he rarely ever has debates anybody, and seems to have lost faith in the public's ability to listen to a debate and make an honest assessment. It's true there is only a few people who can be swung, but he can move the consensus a small bit, some people recognize honesty of hysteria and those who don't will likely have a fixed position anyway. Actually he has so many like-minded people on his podcast on so many topics, that in the last 2 years, he often starts on a bit he said on a previous podcast almost word for word, it's like that uncle at a family gathering telling you a story they told you last Christmas. Think of a movie - free will, the IDF parading people through Tel Aviv etc, etc.
@EzraB123
@EzraB123 3 месяца назад
@paulrussell1207 Yeah, that's a fair assessment. I've followed him for years. Sometimes, he's right on the dot. Other times, he isn't. He does repeat arguments and talking points A LOT, but that doesn't bother me that much. I'd say this interview with John is one of his better episodes.
@devalapar7878
@devalapar7878 3 месяца назад
The treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo were tortured and the officers clearly enjoyed it. They took photos and humiliated them. Did this have a religious reason too? It doesn't need religion for people to act like animals. You just have to dehumanize people. Black people were treated similarly. They were hanged from bridges. Their death was celebrated. It takes dehumanization and not religion!
@SiRushBass
@SiRushBass 3 месяца назад
Well said. While I share Sam's dislike of religion, his disgust of Islam has blinded him morally. It's a shame for someone I otherwise respect to have taken this path of reasoning.
@Resenbrink
@Resenbrink 3 месяца назад
The photos you refer to were not taken at Guantanamo.
@motorhead48067
@motorhead48067 3 месяца назад
Pretty sure his point is that religion is one vehicle by which people dehumanize other people. He’s not saying it’s the only way. But in the case of October 7th, it’s pretty clear that Hamas is motivated at least to some significant degree by the principles of martyrdom and jihad with Islam. Have you heard the phone call of the Hamas member calling his parents in jubilation using the phone of a Jewish person he just murdered? If not, you should listen to it. He is framing his actions in explicitly religious terms.
@infidelheretic923
@infidelheretic923 3 месяца назад
One religion in particular has dehumanizing ideas on multiple groups including the Jews.
@John-bravooo
@John-bravooo 3 месяца назад
​@@SiRushBassislam is disgusting...
@LJScott1974
@LJScott1974 3 месяца назад
Thanks so much for another great episode, and for everything you do.
@evamurray2564
@evamurray2564 3 месяца назад
Based. Most of them don't even know which river or sea they are chanting about.
@Unicorn-Black
@Unicorn-Black 3 месяца назад
Thanks Sam, for hosting normal people, not like many other news, Hosts, we need more people like you and your guest.
@briancunning423
@briancunning423 3 месяца назад
@samharris please use your oft used phrase of believing what a group is telling you. You apply it to Hamas but not Israel. Key members of the Israeli cabinet have called for the destruction of Gaza and described Palestinian's as human animals, yet you portray Israel as always calm, rational, civilised and peace loving.
@stefpix
@stefpix 3 месяца назад
I have been a subscriber to Making Sense. Sam Harris’ podcasts has been helpful for me during dark times. But lately I feel so disappointed. His podcast has turned into an echo chamber for his own partial narrative about current events in the Middle East. This latest episode is so problematic. I remember well the war in Bosnia and the images of the siege of Sarajevo. Atrocities, snipers. It had a similar resonance on the media, at least in Europe. Sam accepts all the Israeli numbers, like 13000 Hamas fighters killed. How then he cannot accept that 34000 Palestinians may have died in Gaza? No mention of people summarily executed while waving white flags. Including the 3 Israeli hostages. John Spencer seems just to feed Sam with what he wants to hear. No mention of responsibilities of the current right wing Israeli government, which includes religious extremists at high ranking positions. I listened to the whole thing and there were so many obvious obfuscations. As terrible October 7th was, no mention of what may have caused that hatred. Lately I find Lex Fridman’s podcasts more open to multiple voices. Sam Harris has not invited anyone who holds different views. Both him and John Spencer seem unable to try to understand the perspective of the other side. Or even empathize. It sounds just like an intellectual exercise to justify massacres. It was interesting and thought provoking the assertion that a 2000 lb bomb may save lives, but looks bad in the public opinion. It seems like a similar argument for dropping the atomic bombs on Japan in ww2. No word about military experts, some from the USA, who disapprove how the Israeli military is conducting this war. Also no mention of many aspects of the Israeli propaganda about tunnels, human shields and so on that have been disproven. The lack of empathy shown on this podcast is so troublesome. Sadly I will not renew my subscription. The content took a turn for the worse.
@briancunning423
@briancunning423 3 месяца назад
@@stefpix Thank you, I feel exactly the same. Israel's attacks on Gaza and the US college protests have been covered extensively and there are so many gaps in this podcast. Like you I have listened to Sam Harris for years but I have also cancelled my subscription. I knew Sam is pro Israel and thought he was avoiding the topic of Gaza since his initial stance. I was expecting a detailed analysis on the steps IDF were taking to protect civilian lives, but all that's there are IDF talking points that don't map to reality. No mention of specific atrocities like the flour massacre. Footage of unarmed people being gunned down was hand waved away as "well they might have been Hamas".
@ChucksSEADnDEAD
@ChucksSEADnDEAD 2 месяца назад
​@@stefpix You use summary execution wrong. Terms have meanings, and you misuse them for rhetoric. You are not honest.
@stefpix
@stefpix 2 месяца назад
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD if bodies of doctors and patients with their hands zip tied and killed by gunshots are not summary executions you lack honesty and fairness. Also there has been a recent raid in the West Bank where undercover Israeli operatives, dressed as doctors, first responders and patient on the wheel chair entered a hospital threatened staff and killed 2 people, one of whose was a paralyzed suspect terrorist and was shot with a bullet to his head while he was bed stricken. That was well documented and reported with cctv video as well. You seem willing to make arbitrary judgements without discussing the facts. You could ask to elaborate on points that you disagree with. But you jump to judging character rather than having a productive discussion. It says more about you and the bias you seem to have.
@walburk
@walburk 3 месяца назад
Extremely enlightening discussion!
@Brian-nt1hh
@Brian-nt1hh 3 месяца назад
Thx Sam and guest. A good bit of unbiased reasoning and evidence is brought to the fore. This conversation, with its depth of info, needs heard.
@joshbedford4889
@joshbedford4889 3 месяца назад
I am not encouraging either a Palistinian or Israeli perspective in my comment, but let me say this: Given Sam Harris' place as a vocal Israel supporter in the public square, what is his opinion on the following topics: 1: Assassination of Lord Moyne 2: Attempted assination of President Truman by Lehi 3: Bombing of King David Hotel 4: Deir Yassin massacre 5: Sinking of SS Liberty 6: Sabra and Shatila massacres 7: Jonathan Pollard Again, I am not speaking as a Palistinian supporter, or as an Israeli supporter. What I am asking for is an interpretation of the above events, (at all, with whatever bias, just to demonstrate basic knowledge of the events) such as would be expected of any expert on the topic. I haven't checked rigorously, but I don't know of any Sam Harris acknowledgement of any of these topics as things worth even addressing when he disseminates his pro-Israel perspective. Edit: Last paragraph removed
@trumanhw
@trumanhw 3 месяца назад
that last paragraph could use a rewrite, but, the rest warrants a thumbs up. Though ... I don't know of any Lehi.
@joshbedford4889
@joshbedford4889 3 месяца назад
@@trumanhw I keep telling myself not to drink and comment, and then I keep doing it... That last paragraph felt coherent at the time... 😆
@ChucksSEADnDEAD
@ChucksSEADnDEAD 2 месяца назад
So you want to discuss the current war or the entire historical background? Hey man, the US has fought wars against Canada, the UK and Germany. Now they're allies. We're gonna bring that up when talking about Ukrainian aid?
@joshbedford4889
@joshbedford4889 2 месяца назад
@ChucksSEADnDEAD This history of Israel is uniquely relevant in this case because, unlike the examples you listed, the motivating ideology of the Israeli right has not changed in 100 years. That is unusual, but in this case, it is true. If you want to prove me wrong: explain the philisophical/ideological differences between Jabotinsky, Begen, Shamir, Sharon, and Netanyahu. The only difference I see ideologically is that Shamir was unusually ballsy when it came to attacking Western powers, and Netanyahu has a higher emphasis on capitalism than the rest. But, like, other than that, explain how the motivating philosophy is different. By contrast, I think there is clear change over time in the US Republican Philosophy from Eisenhower to Nixon to Reagan and to Trump. I understand that if you are not familiar with the topic that it can seem like an irrelevant distraction, but it isn't. Sam Harris is a "consequences of ideas" guy as well as a vocal Israel supporter. I am not knocking either of those things, but I think that this angle is conspicuously missing. There is a world of ideology relevant and causal to what he seems to care about, but that he doesn't seem to know that he doesn't know. I have never heard Sam Harris actually discuss or grapple with the ideas of Zionism. C+
@joshbedford4889
@joshbedford4889 2 месяца назад
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oWw6ukjPExw.htmlsi=xmYHKqbNmTgCD1LK
@da3v1ls93
@da3v1ls93 3 месяца назад
Brilliant as always. Sam is a shining light on a world of moral blindness
@kmg474
@kmg474 3 месяца назад
Yes, he's shining a big beacon of blood thirsty, genocidal light all over this conversation 😂😂😂😂
@da3v1ls93
@da3v1ls93 2 месяца назад
The war has been going on for 8 months if israel wanted to commit a genocide it would have happened already. Since 1967 to 2024 Gaza populatuon has grown by 600% from 350,000 to 2.4 million. Does that sound like a genocide to you?
@kmg474
@kmg474 2 месяца назад
@da3v1ls93 No, Israel is being watched by the world, so it would never simply nuke Gaza. Tbey are moving towards their aim, which is to anex Gaza.
@da3v1ls93
@da3v1ls93 24 дня назад
​@@kmg474do you know about history? They pulled out of Gaza in 2005. In 2006 Hamas were voted into power. This isn't going very well for you is it?!
@kmg474
@kmg474 23 дня назад
@da3v1ls93 I don't know why you think that what you've stated here refutes anything I've said.
@Besseloff
@Besseloff 3 месяца назад
This throws into stark relief the ignorance/anti-Semitism of most of Israel's critics.
@jmc5335
@jmc5335 3 месяца назад
Israel doesn't mind antisemitism. What critics are you talking about?
@Jimbo-vq6cd
@Jimbo-vq6cd 3 месяца назад
Been a huge fan of Sam for over a decade, but he makes several points in this pod that seem to lack his usual intellect or understanding of a topic. 1. Asking why college protestors aren’t protesting against Russia invading Ukraine and suggesting there’s some antisemitism in there. Could it be because the US is the closest ally Isreal has? And that the US provide $billions to Israel? And that many colleges and universities invest in arms manufacturers that supply Israel? I’m surprised he massively oversimplified this. And suggesting the protestors are Hamas supporters? WTF? 2. He massively oversimplifies the conflict as if Palestinians just hate all Jews for because of religious reasons. Completely ignoring 80 years of Palestinians being oppressed by Israel. 3. There were more… maybe I should have taken notes!
@Jimbo-vq6cd
@Jimbo-vq6cd 3 месяца назад
I’d love to seem Sam have Bassem Youssef on for a discussion.
@kmg474
@kmg474 3 месяца назад
Boom. Well said. Sam is all over the place on this. His tribalism is showing.
@ChucksSEADnDEAD
@ChucksSEADnDEAD 2 месяца назад
1. Europe also financed Russia with gas money. And everyone finances China, who then purchases Russian resources. Where are the protests? 2. The "oppression" wasn't done for funsies, it's a two-sided affair and Israel ended up on top. It's not Israel's fault they bootstrapped a nation and all others wanted to do was attack them.
@robertodistinto4956
@robertodistinto4956 2 месяца назад
The talking about Iran’s bombing Israel was not well analyzed too.
@eadler1220
@eadler1220 3 месяца назад
Such great questions and observations! Everyone should listen to this highly informative and insightful podcast, especially Israel’s detractors.
@blondiegreeneyes4802
@blondiegreeneyes4802 3 месяца назад
It's a tidal wave directed at Israelis and Jews. I'm disappointed in Biden.
@nineteenninetyfive
@nineteenninetyfive 3 месяца назад
When you grow up in a medieval society you become medieval in your sensibilities. This is what happened to Palestinians to make them so evil. It's a very important lesson that most people know but don't take too much to heart. There are too many people that think you are born either a good or bad person and it isn't that way.
@lukewilson5846
@lukewilson5846 3 месяца назад
You think the average Palestinian is “evil”?
@michellemeister1317
@michellemeister1317 3 месяца назад
Half of Palestine are children. How are children evil?
@nineteenninetyfive
@nineteenninetyfive 3 месяца назад
@@lukewilson5846 well the concept of evil is really a religious one which depends on a concept of free will, and I believe in neither. But immoral, bad, completely inhumane? I mean this is the sort of thing I am talking about.
@lukewilson5846
@lukewilson5846 3 месяца назад
Exactly, so why use “evil” in the first place? Using a religious term undermines your argument that they are a product of their environment (which they very much are). I think Hamas has shown itself to be inhumane but to group all Palestinians (nearly 70% don’t even have fully formed pre-frontal cortexes) under that label is dehumanizing propaganda, pure and simple.
@SiRushBass
@SiRushBass 3 месяца назад
The Israeli state is founded on the forced ejection of Palestinian people from their land, and their continued subjugation as sub human beings, in what is blatantly now an apartheid state. That's pretty f ING medieval
@ClaytonHardee
@ClaytonHardee 3 месяца назад
I appreciate this content I haven’t heard anything like it before. Thanks for sharing it. There is not, nor was there ever, a good path forward for Israel. Urban combat comes with collateral damage that goes without saying. Israel, at the beginning of the war, promised to minimize this, but from an outsider looking in, legacy media would have it appear like Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. However, this podcast makes a solid case against that. I think Israel has the right to defend itself and to root out Hamas, but it comes with responsibilities. Again, there will be civilian casualties in urban combat, but it should be kept to a bare minimum. I now understand because of this podcast, Israel has been doing this to the best of its ability. The IDF is winning the battles but sadly losing the PR war.
@ef2718
@ef2718 3 месяца назад
The media is interested in emotions and sensation. All media crews in Gaza are local. Hard to win PR against 57 members of the Organization of Islamic Countries. Qatar sponsor Hamas and Al Jazeera and leading western Universities, it also controls 21% of global LNG market.
@KanakarisGeorge
@KanakarisGeorge 3 месяца назад
24:12 : Sam : 'Can you imagine the reverse case of the IDF dragging non-combantant women and children out of Gaza into Israel and random Israeli celebrating their rape and abuse .' This is exactly what is happening in the West Bank for years. Selective memory or ill will?Where is your moral landscape now ?
@John-bravooo
@John-bravooo 3 месяца назад
That doesn't happen in the West Bank LOLOLOL. Arabs aren't afraid of Jews. 1400 years of dominating them Muslims in London are more criminal.
@andrealeetobias3474
@andrealeetobias3474 3 месяца назад
That is a lie, you are doing exactly what Sam and John are talking about, being uneducated and getting your information on tik tok
@bikerd12
@bikerd12 3 месяца назад
Sam, how about bringing John Mearsheimer or Rashid Khalidi for other side of the argument?
@kmg474
@kmg474 3 месяца назад
That would be a disaster for Sam as they would break his mind with the truth.
@bikerd12
@bikerd12 3 месяца назад
@@kmg474 I suspect you’re right
@infidelheretic923
@infidelheretic923 3 месяца назад
Lol. There isn't one. Israel is fighting in self defense and Hamas is evil. Anyone who disagrees is delusional.
@John-bravooo
@John-bravooo 3 месяца назад
​@@kmg474mearsheimer knows nothing about asymmetrical warfare. He is a political scientist, not a soldier. Is Edward Said even alive?
@kmg474
@kmg474 3 месяца назад
@@John-bravooo A political scientist is precisely who is needed to give context and background to this genocide: not a war mongering grunt.
@Holmefjord93
@Holmefjord93 3 месяца назад
Thank God for Sam Harris ! :)
@HobbyhorseMusic
@HobbyhorseMusic 3 месяца назад
Thank you Sam. Great guest and great questions.
@nikonnelisanikitopoulos2162
@nikonnelisanikitopoulos2162 3 месяца назад
Keep those PSAs coming Sam. The world's trajectory is truly disturbing
@theotherview1716
@theotherview1716 3 месяца назад
Results in science are not conclusions. People love number like 30,000 without asking what those numbers mean. Given the circumstance is that a lot? A little?
@ethanstapley7018
@ethanstapley7018 3 месяца назад
It's very difficult for a layman/average person to admit thst skepticism without being ostracised.
@MADDcartman
@MADDcartman 3 месяца назад
Being intellectually humble is rarely rewarded these days. While I’ll admit this discussion was broadly one-sided it’s always good to nail down some of the facts of the matter when most discussions around this are anything but..
@blondiegreeneyes4802
@blondiegreeneyes4802 3 месяца назад
@@MADDcartman There are two sides, and then there's the truth. I prefer the latter. That's what I get here. Sam Harris is one of my most trusted sources of news and reality.
@Giantcrabz
@Giantcrabz 3 месяца назад
more than 1 is too many unless you're a neocon psycho like Sam
@TurKishsoulja
@TurKishsoulja 3 месяца назад
There comes a time when the number is so high that there is no justification.
@Paula-yb1qu
@Paula-yb1qu 3 месяца назад
This episode contains mostly subjective viewpoints, it would benefit from clearer logic and factual accuracy to enhance its impact and credibility. I believe in your ability to raise the bar Sam!
@polinapankratov8851
@polinapankratov8851 2 месяца назад
Thank you so much for a deep and extensive conversation!
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