Viessmann, is this why we could never get along? 

good idea - I am branching to Portugal soon. Maderia would be preferable.

@@UrbanPlumbers Hi, so much stuff in your videos it’s hard to digest. Would you be willing to do a job in Ipswich? Seriously! Replace rads, replace boiler, make our house warm. Cheers, keep up the good work

@@rvoele ALi Sutor is your man in Ipswitch, Ali Sutor - Smart Heating Solutions Ltd

Thank you !

🤙

Yes, looks nice now, doesn’t it?

Agree with this he is spot on.

Eddie, my Porsche garage usually has correct parts send for servicing, which can’t be said about Viessmann sadly.

They do.

This guy is great, but needs to read Viessmann's Technical Guides deeply to eliminate a couple of errors in his thinking. For example 1) changing rads over to UFH on thin floor insulation will raise his customer's gas bills by dumping heat into the ground 2) this dual-temperature VD200 boiler will have to run at least from 4am/10pm because of the 4 hour lag in the rads/UFH combination 3) the weather comp UFH will force the householder to run the VitoDens 200 to run 24/7 for the living room, despite the 1hr 'boost'. Not to panic, there are solutions to all of this... First separate out the German mentality from British mentality. Our Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Battenberg cousins run their homes on uninterrupted heating because they are so well insulated. Imagine 10" rockwool in your walls instead of 4". This leads German Viessmann to the vast array of subtle options in their weather compensation menus - setbacks, boosts, piggy button, party button, room % influence, variable temperature hysteresis, ramp up & down speeds, delay start, load compensation via flow+return pipe sensors, an absolute dream for a heating techies. Secondly, realise that the Germans unflinching invest £12k in their heating & control systems, while the British grumpily hand out £5k max, or £7k to British Gas venture capitalists. Find a British customer for me who thinks buying a Viessmann mixed Divicon and an unmixed Divicon is a good investment, ha ha ! So Germans then expect their system to be well maintained annually with the use of instruments to measure flow rates, pressures, temperatures & water chemistry (British skimp on this and still expect 10 year warranties). Thirdly, the Germans make space for their heating systems whereas the British expect you to squeeze all the heating into a kitchen cupboard. Look at how Urban Plumbers have to shoehorn in a UFH manifold here, a pump over there, the pipework inaccessible behind tiles and kickboard - it's shameful how British heating installers are expected to produce invisible work. Fourth - our British heating installers are either self taught, or only fleetingly taught with one-day product demonstrations at Glow-Worm or Vaillant or Potterton etc. You come home with a bag of brochures and a branded coffee cup and now you're going to help home owners save fuel, right? Good luck. Okay, here's a challenge: Who out there knows how to set the pre-charge pressure of an expansion vessel for a) a hydronic heating circuit, b) an unvented hot water cylinder and c) a solar thermal glycol circuit. Answers on an A4 sheet please. You want to save your customers gas consumption? Forget the competition between condensing boilers that are 99.3% or 99.6% fuel efficient (hint: look for condensation plumes drifting out from every installer's flues. What does condensation in the garden tell you about this housholders' system? Huh?). No, try this instead. Free of charge from me to you all. www.dropbox.com/s/16zwaq7q3u4r2g7/22%20save30%25ads-1.jpg?raw=1 www.dropbox.com/s/l4yhh9nzs8ibhdb/22%20save30%25ads-2.jpg?raw=1 www.dropbox.com/s/p3knh0z6d1d8kf9/22%20prepCylAd.jpg?raw=1

@@claudiahamminger-stone3274 Just so I'm clear, you're claiming that multiplying the heating surface area by 10X (compared to the single radiator) and using insulated boards where previously he had no insulation, he will be paying more to heat this room?

I love the Viessmann 200B2B I purchased >13 years ago, I used to service boiler gas analysers for Kane Instruments, the rep there said get a 200W it's the Best by far, & he was spot on 👍 usual service parts after 13 years, but I have 2 kids used every day 24_7, the 200W engineering on it is fantastic, I recently flushed out my home radiators system (radiators pipes valves etc) got a lot out now leaving a Fernox F3 cleaner in it for a week then flush out next week and add a Fernox F1 protector, wow its back to its new condition warm cosy, I've changed the flow temperature down to 55°C aiming to reduce that when the temperature goes up from 0°C in February, 13 years old boiler has some features I didn't know about now it's going to save me even more money 👍 The engining on their 200W boiler is fantastic I used to work in aerospace defence industry so quality was so very important, so yes I agree with Urban Boilers 200W is fantastic👍 With a combination of underfloor heating which is incredibly efficient his customer must be laughing they be so pleased with the massive efficiency ❤ Underfloor heating is what I want in the future, I wouldn't ever leave Viessmann product I found them helpful sure there very busy, best to email 📧 them, when I got to technical they answered all my questions, Viessmann Direct sell parts to the public including boilers they arrive next day if not in stock then they get them from Viessmann in Germany upto 10 days for delivery I was informed Viessmann purchased Viessmann Direct as their main parts distributor, Viessmann 222 is same fantastic unit 👍 with built in Cylinder tank

Could you do the work to create and administer this group Charles, and we installers willl all join it ?

Which model did you install?

@@singlendhot8628 I think it was 100-W

OT support has been pants with Viessmann forever. Depending what you connect, lets say an Evohome. When it calls for heat, the boilers fires at max rate for a couple of minutes then modulates down to the demand. That obviously completely screws the point of the modulated demand. While it doesn't apply to every OT controller, Honeywell are (and have) continually blamed a flawed Viessmann implementation, and vice versa.

Maybe a VPN would allow you to fool the Boiler into thinking that your Gaff is in either North America or Germany...

Great boiler, no doubt. We need to give V credit for innovation. I guess they are focusing on development mainly and assume that we as installers know more than we really do.

I like 200W. I actually also like 100 series. I do not like the mess the company is though.

@@UrbanPlumbers The 100-W System can modulate just as low as Bosch's 4000/8000 System boilers so there really isn't a competitive advantage there anymore. (The 100-W regular boiler is superior vs. the rest below 30 kW). But the 200-W is in a totally different class!

Viessmann 200W boilers are particular good with their massive burn modulation ratios, they can now happily run with just a single 2kW radiator open without having to cycle on-and-off. Ahh if only Viessmann UK had not withdrawn the VitoCrossal CU3 from the domestic boiler market. Now THAT was a heat exchanger and a control system to die for. Oh yes, then Vsmn UK withdrew the VDens 300 series too - you see, we British heating installers were just not to be trusted as much as the German crowd, so we got throttled down to having access to just the 100 and 200 series, sigh.

@@claudiahamminger-stone3274 The 200-W is an excellent piece of kit. What benefit did the CU3 have over it?

The most advanced boilers, um, so those rubber flow and return tubes that load up with scale you know the one on the rear of the heat exchanger are really advanced, you know the one that requires you to strip down the boiler so as to get out the heat exchanger so you can replace the rubber hose because its blocked and the most advanced boiler is over heating. Or are you talking about the one with the burner door that snaps its locking mechanism leaving the burner to flap about in the breeze. Poor technical support and boiler manuals that just leave you to do your own thing, Great.

All boiler manufacturers have gas-fired boilers at 92% efficiency or above, if an installed 92% efficient Viessmann is running at a higher efficiency than a 92% efficient Vaillant then it’s down to the way the installer has setup the boiler and the way the system is designed. The reason people think Viessmann boilers are more efficient seems to be down to the fact that installers that fit Viessmann are on the whole more clued up on things like heat loading, pump speeds, weather comp etc than installers that install other boilers makes; in my opinion.

@@sip5574 You're totally off the mark. It has advanced weather comp AND is 98% efficient. Real world consumption savings of 15-20% over the 92% boilers you describe.

@@singlendhot8628 From what I can tell, boilers like the Baxi 800 already have the full Opentherm support (same as the advanced weather comp) unlike the Viessmann 100-W which only has a single curve support. If the Baxi can modulate down as much as the Viessmann, then it should in theory be the same in efficiency (Viessmann quote 94%, baxi 93%)

@@TheLinkedList That's a huge if!

This guy is great, but needs to read Viessmann's Technical Guides deeply to eliminate a couple of errors in his thinking. For example 1) changing rads over to UFH on thin floor insulation will raise his customer's gas bills by dumping heat into the ground 2) this dual-temperature VD200 boiler will have to run at least from 4am/10pm because of the 4 hour lag in the rads/UFH combination 3) the weather comp UFH will force the householder to run the VitoDens 200 to run 24/7 for the living room, despite the 1hr 'boost'. Not to panic, there are solutions to all of this... First separate out the German mentality from British mentality. Our Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Battenberg cousins run their homes on uninterrupted heating because they are so well insulated. Imagine 10" rockwool in your walls instead of 4". This leads German Viessmann to the vast array of subtle options in their weather compensation menus - setbacks, boosts, piggy button, party button, room % influence, variable temperature hysteresis, ramp up & down speeds, delay start, load compensation via flow+return pipe sensors, an absolute dream for a heating techies. Secondly, realise that the Germans unflinching invest £12k in their heating & control systems, while the British grumpily hand out £5k max, or £7k to British Gas venture capitalists. Find a British customer for me who thinks buying a Viessmann mixed Divicon and an unmixed Divicon is a good investment, ha ha ! So Germans then expect their system to be well maintained annually with the use of instruments to measure flow rates, pressures, temperatures & water chemistry (British skimp on this and still expect 10 year warranties). Thirdly, the Germans make space for their heating systems whereas the British expect you to squeeze all the heating into a kitchen cupboard. Look at how Urban Plumbers have to shoehorn in a UFH manifold here, a pump over there, the pipework inaccessible behind tiles and kickboard - it's shameful how British heating installers are expected to produce invisible work. Fourth - our British heating installers are either self taught, or only fleetingly taught with one-day product demonstrations at Glow-Worm or Vaillant or Potterton etc. You come home with a bag of brochures and a branded coffee cup and now you're going to help home owners save fuel, right? Good luck. Okay, here's a challenge: Who out there knows how to set the pre-charge pressure of an expansion vessel for a) a hydronic heating circuit, b) an unvented hot water cylinder and c) a solar thermal glycol circuit. Answers on an A4 sheet please. You want to save your customers gas consumption? Forget the competition between condensing boilers that are 99.3% or 99.6% fuel efficient (hint: look for condensation plumes drifting out from every installer's flues. What does condensation in the garden tell you about this housholders' system? Huh?). No, try this instead. Free of charge from me to you all. www.dropbox.com/s/16zwaq7q3u4r2g7/22%20save30%25ads-1.jpg?raw=1 www.dropbox.com/s/l4yhh9nzs8ibhdb/22%20save30%25ads-2.jpg?raw=1 www.dropbox.com/s/p3knh0z6d1d8kf9/22%20prepCylAd.jpg?raw=1

He's still warming up. After watching every video, I'm sure that Viessmann will replace Intergas as his go to option.

Thanks 👍

Your boiler is incorrectly installed

That's shocking! you should share this on social media to shame them into improvement!

@@singlendhot8628 i got them to commit to a date via social media shaming. They dont give a fuck quite frankly. Germany is pushing heatpumps so hard, they know they have golden times ahead so fuck the customer

Ahhh, too late I guess. He must have seen it already :) - great boilers - but we now know the rest - LOL

It was mostly customer driven and he is very happy to use this tech and experiment

@@UrbanPlumbers Sorry I forgot to ask, what was the calculated heat loss on the property, what size boiler did you select and did you range rate it?

@@UrbanPlumbers I'm also interested in the approx. heat loss of the property as it looks very well kept. I'm surprised the customer didn't ask for your thoughts on installing a 200-W before accepting your quote. It's literally the "deep end" of the Viessmann brand. We've installed over a dozen for clients where heat pumps are not feasible and every single install has been painful (I had one apprentice quit because of the complexity) But the end result is always worth it and the customers never have issues. Hope you do more!

Sounds like you've got a great basic set up, and you're now ready to save another 30% of fuel with two more improvements: 1. Fit Honeywell Evohome so you can nail down times & temperatures in every room (or group of rooms) from a central control panel, while still being able to LOCALLY override any of the TRV's 2. Dump the automatic heating timer of your home, and use psychology rather hod loads more technology to meet the occupants' expectations of warmth; that is to say: Fit a count down timer like these ones: Countdown Timer Sangamo or Timeguard www.dropbox.com/s/16zwaq7q3u4r2g7/22%20save30%25ads-1.jpg?raw=1 www.dropbox.com/s/l4yhh9nzs8ibhdb/22%20save30%25ads-2.jpg?raw=1

You could also just size rads to the same flow temp as UFH. I am sure I will get to do a job like that soon, especially with new part L regs

200 is quite amazing I must say

No other boilers come close on efficiency. Or frustration.

@@UrbanPlumbers model 200 can be considered art …

Viessmann has a solution for this

How does a person switch off eco -mode on the 100-W when in opentherm , I have this exact problem .

Got one to install myself soon. Good luck! :)

Yes 🤞 hoping the commissioning engineer knows his stuff Looking forward to your video on your install I’ve got rad circuit / UF circuit going to run it on weather comp no internal stats Thanks

Definitely shy away from overlay in every case. If the floor has only standard Building Reg levels of thermal insulation under it, then it's designed to be 20ºC and is not suitable for heating up to 40ºC. Note that overlay insulation is only 2mm thick under the pipework !

Boiler trust are Brilliant. Any technical questions you can ever have they can answer for you.

Polypipe

Imagine Viessmann boiler with Worcester back up. That would be a winner no one could touch.

They installed W100 on S plan???!!! Get it converted to PDHW

Use 4 pipe with WC if you can

Its on a two pipe system, impractical to run 4 pipe from boiler(in garage) to loft where cylinder is!

It's magic ! Leaving Windows open makes your house cold. German logic would just say don't be silly and close the door. It's complex to explain but so perfect and simple in application.

yes, it happens a lot with thermostatic shower valves as well

No, no, no. Viessmann is an extraordinarily reliable German company with a British outlet that struggles. Their products from the Vitodens 200 series upwards are fantastic, including the 222. If I could afford the Vitodens 222 at home I would have had one, or the Vitodens 242 energy tower - I have fitted both for customers, and am happy to service yours although I no longer buy the Gas Safe Register extortion licence and so may not commercially carry out 'gas work'. Any ordinary Gas Safe stooge in your area can do the gas & flue side of your boiler, if it needs it. There is a mismatch between the UK's deregulated market in domestic heating services and those in Germany. This is why Viessmann UK struggles so much. In the horrid EU installers are qualified, whereas in the UK no-one needs to study heating before installing it 'professionally'. So of course Viessmann HQ has this ugly stepchild in the UK where the tech help dept is flooded with low quality calls from installers, who should not really be fitting such amazing equipment. Twenty years ago Viessmann in the UK and Holland hit upon a compromise - and designed the Vitodens 100 series as an ultra cheap and simple boiler that reflected the abysmal functionality of Baxi, Worcester-Bosch, GlowWorm, Potterton, Vokera etc.. This would allow your typical gas installer to select a Viessmann from the bottom of the range, and not even have to realise that he was dealing with an incredible manufacturer.

@@claudiahamminger-stone3274 I’m guessing you don’t sell many with this attitude 😂😂

@@chrisb4009 I find that the types of customers who go for the Viessmann 200 series boilers are 1. ex-pat Germans, Dutch or Scandinavians who don't scrimp on heating 2. tech minded men from manufacturing industry or academia 3. wealthy bastards who just want the best, or 4. super ecological types who want to integrate solar or wood boilers into one slick system !

@@claudiahamminger-stone3274 Sorry mate but without the "Gas Safe Register extortion licence " you cant legally touch his boiler.

@@robhamps Mate, Engineers who do pay the undeserved Gas Safe Register fees, may carry out all aspects of central heating work except opening the gas ways & flue system, or changing the combustion characteristics. 95% of all gas central heating work in response to call outs does not therefore require you to have bought the GSR licence. When necessary a fee-paying gas lackey can be called out for annual combustion checks, or God forbid, actually opening up the burner chamber to inspect for damage or to measure whether the electrode distance are within tolerance. Ha! Find a British Gas engineer who does that during his working week of 35 house visits, if you can. The central purpose of the Gas Safe Register is to assist HMRC in tax collection. At 17 gas related deaths per year, GSR/Corgi are not even faintly interested in saving lives or preventing injury. It's time for conscientious professionals to wake up, and regard Governmental institutions with the disgust they deserve.

Too many variables! But it is not unrealistic to expect between 10%-30% savings. Esepcially on this one, once we removed hot water mixing problem and insualted pipework around the hot water cylidner. Also modulation and PDHW must save at lest 10% overall.

Intergas Xclusive

@@UrbanPlumbers are they reliable? I was told that stainless steel heat exchangers dont drop efficiency like aluminum do.

@@handle1196 Nothing compares to the 200-W. Intergas Xclusive is comparing an AMG Mercedes to a Bugatti.

not a fan of those cyliners. It is marketing hype. I can do anything mixergy does with any other cylinder anyway, so why pay double?

@@UrbanPlumbers I was looking to upgrade to a heat pump. I understand that these tanks are heat pump ready and are more flexible. Still would be good on a video to see your argument.

@@paddingtonbear4104 any tank can be made heat pump ready for less money than mixergy want. I would rather use heat pump ready coil not plate load it.

There is literally no one that can teach you that stuff. You need to look for it yourself and ask questions on forums. Even manufacturers that sell boilers that can do all of that stuff do not understand it most of the time.

Thanks, watching your videos are great help. Do your customers enquire about this work or are you recommending the systems.

I would recommend Kim Betty course as a start followed by Adam Chapmans Heat Geek course . In that order . You will be prepping yourself for one largest changes within our industry . I’m sure Urban would agree.

150mm

Thanks 👍🏾

Best to get rid of an s plan. You can use dhw demand box with 200, but you will be losing some functionality. Best to 4 pipe it as designed by Viessmann.

@@UrbanPlumbers Not what I wanted to hear... Thanks very much for the reply.

That part of work was not for me to decide. It was another company doing bathrooms so didn’t want to get too involved. All I cared about is no mixing hot with cold. I did say what the regs were though.

Hot water takes priority, so it never runs together with rads and UFH. Then the boiler will fire at a lower temp if only UFH calls for heating. If Rads call for heating at the same time as UFH then a blending valve that has a temperature sensor and a motor will adjust how much flow goes to UFH and mix it with the cooler return water if needed.

No valve at all previously