How could you make this video and not bring up the Zenith Chronomaster Sport...lol...the perfect example of a homage... I must say, this is a great topic that the watch world has struggled with...you should definitely discuss it more.
Yea but Ruger doesn't make their version of the 1911 a 1:1 copy of Kimber's version of a 1911, and Springfield doesn't make their 1911 a 1:1 copy of a Dan Wesson 1911. I've had a 1:1 copy of a vintage M16-A2, and the company that made it didn't call it an "homage", they called it a clone because that's exactly what it was - a copy.
@@oldschool2942 glocks are trash period lol. Ugly boxy design. I like 1911’s and M9(being in the marine corps) the funniest one to me is the magnum 500. Good luck shooting one of those lol
@@alaskanwhiskey if you think Glocks are trash then you clearly don't know anything about firearms. Calling an objectively great gun that has had a profound impact on firearm history trash is utter crap lol that's like saying the 1911 is trash because I personally don't like how it looks.
@@johnjohnson5496 glocks are trash, move! Take that garbage elsewhere 😂 if you want to star in a hip hop video then keep that thing have no use for something whack as them
This, all day long, this. Replica's are exact clone fakes. Something can't be a "carbon copy" if it has a different logo. A replica would have the same logo as the original. Look up the definition of replica/replicate/replication.
@@DrunkonTacos We should have to differentiate fakes against replicas, just as it happens with cars (however there are only a few of fake cars there), because when you make fakes you do carbon copies for 100%, but when you make replicas, you make something that seems to be the original from outside, but with different (and mainly lame) proportions, and all these replicas has totally different, less wellmade, elegant and well designed interior. Not to menton the quality of putting together the whole thing.That's a huge difference. I didn't mean that a fake is ok, for sure it's worse than any replicas, as making replicas need at least some effort. And then comes all the other step like homages and so.
None of those definitions. A replica or carbon copy is a forgery and also a serious crime. An homage is a watch that emulates a design of another watch without the deliberate intention of pretending that it is an original watch. Don't be so dramatic
@@loganholmberg2295 Don't compare companies like Parnis, Tissel, Pagani that makes nothing but copies to Seiko.. company that has thousands of original designs and is one of the most important brands in the history of watchmaking.
@@KK-VLOG Companies with watch making history like Seiko also have "homage" watches made in China.….. probably in the same factories like Parnis, Pagani design etc......so we shouldn't buy from them just because they don't have a horology history?
@@KK-VLOG Nope, you don't get! I do own Citizens and Seikos and other higher end watches but to me my Chinese Datejust Homage feels much better at only €89 than my other watches of respected brands. My other "common known brand" watches are just as much of an homage watch as my Chinese Datejust. And they're all made in china, same workers. So no need to bash the lower end brands without trying them out.
A bespoke watchmaker once said to me: everything has already been kinda done in the watch world. I, in general, think it is a difficult and polarizing topic.
People need to realize that the Rolex Submariner isn't the God of All Watches. I think it depends on preference. People praise it too much and I believe, quite frankly, it's overrated. I'd still buy one though.
Homage: a watch that borrows elements and design language from existing watches (Seiko Sea Urchin, Seiko Fifty-Five Fathoms, Dan Henry watches) Replica/Copy: a watch that mimics existing watches without bringing anything substantively new to the table, but isn’t trying to pass as one of them. (Pagani Design Sub, Invicta Pro Diver) Counterfeit: a replica watch that tries to fraudulently and deceptively pass as a genuine watch. (A fake Rolex that says “Rolex” on the dial). Edit: Scratch Orient Kamasu from the “Homage” Category.
I mostly agree except counterfeit watch makers have appropriated the word "replica" to try to justify their outright trademark theft of a registered trademark for illegal deception and fraud. So replica can no longer be used in proper context for a legal homage watch which does not steal company trademarks and carries a different logo on the dial.
OMG I’ve just realised my wife is just a homage to Scarlett Johanson; she’s blonde, 5’4”, beautiful and has the same anatomical attributes. I fell in love with her because she was a unique individual but TTT has opened my eyes to her deception. I’m devasted 🥺. I’m going to file for divorce immediately and wait until Scarlett is available. 🤣
Hahaha my wife’s exactly the same, I’m devastated!! A stunningly beautiful woman that’s wonderful in virtually every way but she’s nearly identical to Scarlet, Jesus clearly she needs to be a catch and release!
after rolex and blancpain just about all subsequent dive watches are homages of those two designs. but the vibe i'm picking up is if the watch costs $10k then we're good but if it costs $300 then it's an homage and time to debate if it's a homage replica rip off etc.
@@AlwaysPossible100 that is my understanding too- the exact counterfeit copies being referred to as "clones" or "superclones" designed to mislead and with the illegal branding.
Part of the problem is....watches are mostly round. They have 2 or 3 hands, sometimes subdials, sometimes day and date. In the end everyone homages everyone else, there are only so many ways to make a hand or a dial marker and every dive watch needs a bezel. A replica is when someone sells a Rolex, Seiko, Tudor, whatever with the name of the original maker on the dial. As for Seiko, their instruments division has no problem selling NH35 and NH36 movements to Chinese microbrands who homage discontinued Seiko divers! I have one! I have 5 Seiko watches AND a Heimdallr red dial 2nd genMonster homage because I can't get one for less than $1,800 pristine! Unlike the original with hardlex crystal and cheap bracelet, the Heimdallr has the same movement, a sapphire crystal and a solid end link bracelet with milled clasp! In essence making replica watches is a criminal act where they try to pass off a fake as an original. A homage is different, even if it's a copy to a large extent, they're not trying to pass themselves off as the real thing. So, get a grip Jordy. Not everyone can afford to buy a Submariner, it's better that they buy a homage than an illegal replica.
Interesting POV. Do I like it? Can I afford it? Is it legal?. If the answer is yes then that's all that matters to me. I could care less what title it has, homage or not.
Replicas have come to mean fake counterfeit illegal watches and NOT Homages which clearly do not infringe the trademark and logo or patents of the original manufacturer..
Well in french universally the h is usually silent is it not? I could be wrong though, its been a long time since I took mandated high school French in Saskatchewan.😅
I think that in essence a tribute watch should only be given within the brand itself. As Laco can do with the current Flieger, or Seiko with the Marine Master, who make a reinterpretation of old models brought to the present time. But currently this word basically means replica but said in a more posh way.
Easy. The key is Intent. Inten to deceive or mislead any party (Replica / Copy / Counterfeit). Similar or close to original design but different branding is considered homage.
I agree that "homage" has taken on a new meaning, when talking about watches, but your rant has a few problems. Homage = Knockoff, NOT "Replica". When dealing with watches, "Replica has come to mean FAKE, with the logos and text of the famous watch it is duplicating. Forums dedicated to these FAKE Rolexes, Pateks, Omegas and the like, call themselves "Replica Watch" forums. A "knockoff" is generally defined as being a very close copy, but significantly cheaper and with different branding. When a famous actress walks the red carpet in a designer gown, the next day people in the garment industry are rushing to make cheaper copies, known as "knockoffs". Are all dive watches homages to a Blancpain FF, or a Rolex Submariner? Questionable. What isn't in dispute is that some very famous brands are guilty of the design stealing, you deride in your rant. What is a Seiko SGF206, if not a Rolex Datejust knockoff? A Bulova 96C125 bears more than just a passing resemblance to a Rolex Day-Date, as does the Orient "President" 2EV03000BY. The Tag Heuer 1000 (ref. 980.013B), was a blatant Submariner doppelganger, Mercedes hands and all. The examples are nearly endless, but certain watch snobs love to pretend that Invicta started this trend. The reality is that a market exists for knockoff watches, or Seiko, Orient, Bulova, et al. wouldn't keep churning them out. Not many people are going to pay new car money for a Patek Philippe 5711 Nautilus, but for under $100 there are plenty of watches that have the same styling. There's an old joke, where a woman is asked if she will have sex for $1 million, and she says "yes". Then she is asked if she'll do it for $10. She gets offended and asks "What kind of woman do you think I am?" to which her questioner responds, "I think we've determined that, and now we're just haggling over price." The outrage over "homage" watches seems to get louder as the price goes down. A $500 Steinhart Sub homage gets considerably less criticism that an Invicta Pro Diver 8926, or one of the Chinese mushroom brands. My new Steeldive SD1970, is a Seiko 6105 "homage", which Seiko itself even reissued as the SPB151. Steeldive and Addies don't really have any original designs, but they also catch more flack for copying Seiko, than Heimdallr, Merkur and San Martin.
Good points. Same happens in the automotive world, and you'll see the new corvette getting less hate from Ferrari fans than a Fiero body kit 308 as well.
Just one thing: you want to talk about the "original" or "right" definition of the word "homage". BUT, at the same time, you say that you believe that watchmaking is an art. Then you call out the ones copying the artist. The problem is that, no matter what you believe or what you want, watchmaking is not an art. We in the watch community feel that way, but it is not an art. It is an industrial design, and therefore it gets expired. I'm saying that because I think it is unfair in a discussion like that you use one term in a "original" definition (homage), applie it to a fictional idea (watch is art), to get to a subjective conclusion.
The word has a different connotation in the watch world than it does in general use. Quite often it is used to denigrate the manufacturer or as a slur against the owner. It's true meaning leans more to the side of respect than to anything derogatory. Truthfully, ALL watches are the manufacturer's take on the very first watch. So, in a way; all watches are homages. But, that is not the general consensus in the watch community. As long as it's not a fake, wear what you want and can afford.
I can only speak for music but when we as composers talk about an homage to another composer it's understood that the music sounds different even if themes or textures are copied the whole music sounds different.
Thanks for calling out that the Rolex Submariner (1954) is an homage of the Blancpain Fifty Fathoms (1953). Nothing wrong with that, but it's the truth. Just like the Rolex Daytona (1963) is an homage to the Omega Speedmaster (1957). Again, nothing wrong with that, but it's the truth. Homage does not equal replica - so that is the problem with the way watch enthusiasts are using "homage" when they mean "replica" or more appropriately design "rip off". Well done Jory!
I like the term, that Jody came up with - Clomage for watches like Invicta PD or Paganis, Cadisen, Parnis etc... It is not a clone but could be also hard to see it as a homage - it is something in between - clomage. I also like to add up "cash grab" clomage as the solo intention with such watches is just cash grab. So I could say Invicta Po Diver is a cash grab clomage, while Kamasu is a proper homage. But that is just my opinion, I am no expert..
I like how casio did their own diving watch without copying anyone with their analog frogman. If anything their analog frogman is a homage to theirnoen digital frogmans
We use the verb "pay" with 'homage' so it kind of suggests that we owe a debt to the original. I see an homage as a tribute rather than a copy. Not the same, but reminiscent of.
i like the definition of homage as copy in watch world. its nice to have the distinction that replica means trying to pass off, and homage means using the design but being upfront about it. and i dont mind it - not everyone will be able to get a vintage daytona, but some people adore the look (im talking aesthetically ofc bc if they loved the watch for its history, movement, etc etc, an homage will never scratch the itch)
For those who can’t afford or refuse to pay for a luxury watch, a well made homage is the way in. For example, some can’t pay $1500 for a Sinn 556i. An option is the Atticus Icarus with a similar look and great specs for under $500.
Jory, I like your videos a lot. I ended up buying Casio G-Shock Mudmaster Triple Sensor through your page on Amazon as you provided so much in depth review honestly and also you answered on a Saturday live feed 2 years ago. Great job, you’re indeed a Goodman !
It is bit far fetched to call Orient Kamasu as homage (especially the green one) as it is already somewhere between Omega Seamaster (and Rolex Submariner/Tudor Black Bay) with its own style ..but to irritate 'Rolex fanboys' ..could call "Rolex as arrogantly overpriced homage of Tudor" LOL :D
Absolutely agree! Homages and Copies are different things. I don't understand why that's so hard for people to understand. A homage doesn't look exactly like another watch but carries over elements of the original, while a copy looks 100% (with a different logo) exactly like the watch it's copying, hence the word "copy". It's really not that hard. I think the best 'homages' are of watches that are from decades past and are no longer easily available. Like the Vario 1918 is a great homage to trench watches from WWI. How cool is it that? For the relatively small amount of money, you can have a homage watch that pays tribute to a style that is rarely seen these days. Now that is a true homage.
In French (could be possibly slightly different in English) hommage has to do with the intention behind the design. An hommage si synonymous with tribute. So doing an hommage watch would be with the intention to pay tribute to a design you love.
To me there is a distinct difference between homage and replica/fake/counterfeit. The homage watch is typically the watch manufacturer paying a tribute to the style or design or function of a stand alone watch that normally came out early-on and caught everyone's fancy. Whereas a replica/fake/counterfeit is just plain trying to copy and sell itself as the real deal. I do not see any problem with a homage watch. You are correct in saying that in this day and age too many people consider homages to be replicas. I do feel most knowledgeable watch collectors do know the difference and would never consider purchasing a replica ever. It's not that complicated.
I think there is a clear difference between design inspiration and just photocopying. No different to music inspired by a classic as opposed to a cover version.
An homage, in watchmaking, is a watch that borrows elements of another watch’s design language. All replicas are homages, but not all homages are replicas.
I agree with you and that definition. The word has unfortunatly been redefined by the watch community. The problem with trying to revert this usage, is that replica/copy has gotten negative connotations and is seen as something that is a cheap, low quality product. This has led to fakes almost being labeled replicas as well. As far as I see this, we only have two different words/linguistic categories, while we actually have three different types of watches: fakes/copies, "replicas" (nowadays called homages) and true homages.
You've got this all wrong. I won't explain the difference between homage and replica, I think @Brian M and a couple of others explained it very well. Those Chinese companies are even beginning to make their own designs. You should remember one thing, the Swiss watch industry that you seem to worship, started out making fake British and French timepieces, and I don't mean homages, I mean outright fakes! So get off that high horse, a homage not pretending to be something it's not, is not a replica or a fake. Look at Rolex, they have to homage themselves every year because they can't think of anything new! 🙄
I personally wouldn't know but......it is? I don't understand the guys that have three of four Pepsi GMTs, but then I bought a spare Christopher Ward C11 in case mine ever gets lost or severely damaged because I love that design and they are discontinued.
I think it means copying this one design not to overtake its achievement and reputation its already built, rather to create a similar concept but for a more affordable price tag. No loss, no harm to the original one tho, just finding a mini version of it.
A watch is not only its design but the movement, materials, etc. so, even if you copy the whole design, it fits the classic definition of homage as "incorporating some... style of the person in one's work". A replica also takes another watch design but the main difference is it intends to pass as the real thing. As a watch enthusiast with a low budget, I'm all for homages that put iconic designs within my reach but don't try to fool anyone using a watch with a label I can't pay.
I kinda agree with the kamasu but you would have to ask the actual designer they could easily say the sub was an inspiration but the kamasu remains a unique design
To me an homage pays tribute to the original in subtle ways. It brings thoughts of the original but the homage has its own character. With that said I wear my Pagani “Daytona” while riding my motorcycle. It looks nice and it’s a quartz so I don’t care what happens from the bike vibrations etc. 😂
In my opinion, a replica is ment to be a direct copy of a original. And when I think of an homage I think of something that follows a design language, spirit or a purpose that a particular thing represents while maintaining its own specific characteristics that sets it apart from the inspiration. 🥴❤
So, if I get this right...... Just because a watch has a black bezel and crownguards,....it is infact a "replica" of a Submariner? Then....if a car has four wheels, windscreens and a steering wheel?....what car is that a replica of?
Exactly, I have the same definition of homages. They also drive innovation in one way. If some manufacturer designs something good, others are taking elements from it and modify it in a way to make it even better. One example is also the Nomos Tangente. They have found the original A.Lange designs from the early 1900s and made it theirs. It does not look exactly like the one from A.Lange while still taking design elements from it and you can see the references.
Take diving watches for instance, like you said they all hommage the 50 fathoms to some extend but some more than others. The eco zilla, tuna and suunto dive computers least, and some others like vintage inspired Steinhart's maybe a bit more. And there are out and out copy's that they try to sell as the real deal. I don't mind some mild hommaging( they all do it) but with fakes the first and not the last you cheat is your'e self.
Would you consider something like the Citizen Stiletto "tank" to be an homage to the timeless Cartier design? It feels heavily inspired but original enough to not feel like a copycat, plus it beat Cartier to the punch by making it solar 20+ years ago.
IMO, every watch could be considered an homage since the first wristwatch made by Abraham-Louis Breguet for the Queen of Naples in 1810. With the exception of a few "handless", "indiceless", dialless, etc., all watches share common components and structure. A replica on the other hand, infringes on a copywritten name, trademarked logo, with the intention of passing off their product as a "genuine" copy. To "borrow" or be "inspired" from a particular design or style can be considered a tribute to a well made timepiece.
I use the word "homage" in the way that everybody does, to be understood; but for me, what is generally called "homage" is just a copy. In my opinion, an homage is the Seiko Flightmaster (Breitling Navitimer); a copy is the Invicta Pro Diver (Rolex submariner). It's really easy. Use copies if you want, that's absolutely all right, but don't call them by euphemisms. PS: Amphibias are better build now than an original Blancpain in its birth.
I usually use “clomage” (a portmanteau of clone and homage) for the ones that are essentially replicas but with a different company name on them. It puts emphasis on how little is original/much is copied while still clearly keeping it separate from the ones that try to pass them off as genuine while being fake. They’re not trying to convince you they’re the genuine article, but they’re trying to match it as closely as possible.
I wear whatever I like to wear; sometimes it is a homage watch, sometimes it isn’t. I don’t really bother about other people’s opinion about this. 99.9% of the people don’t even notice what we wear on our wrists. Only us watch nerds bother about that. 🤣
Can you do a review on the Bulova Lunar Pilot, the Homage to David Scott's original moonwatch?? 50 year anniversary of the watch being in space of right around the corner so perfect timing!!
I feel like “replicas” are watches trying to pass themselves as the original; counterfeit. Homage still means “inspired” to me. I read a great reference to copies of guns in the comments, and I feel like music could offer a similar insight…there are a lot similar ideas in songs, much like watches. But I would agree that some homage watches are TRYING to copy the original as close as they can, but with their name on it, to appeal to consumers not able to obtain the original design watch.
So the Vostok in some ways is more the homage as it does take inspiration but is far from a direct copy. Personally I like the Amphibia but QC is not the best as I had to clean the inside of the crystal myself once I got the watch. And the movement is pretty much utilitarian rather than elegant.
As to your question. I think of my English lit teacher. He likened literature similar to homage. You build upon what created us. Writing or design. Like a river, the previous lays the ground work for what follows, as the silt laid down as it flows forward. As for fakes, take a look at the websites. Not hidden, I can order an open heart Orient for 35 bucks, or two grand for a nameless sub homage? With six sales? Who is buying that? ;)
99% of watch Enthusiast know a Replica/Fake is a like for like external copy including logo internally watch very different. Homage is to pay respect show reverence towards something so much so you do a copy of it. In doing the copy you make it known its a copy by not using the original logo, using your own logo or stating its a copy on purchase.
If its legal I think we should just accept what people buy, and what they like. The ONLY direct homage I own is the Heimdallr Monster. I bought this watch because I love the design, its as good or better in every way to the Seiko, and costs 25% as much as a second hand original.
Homage is a ridiculously misused and over-used word, and it has always bugged me when used for watches. I think it's just a polite word used by people who don't want to say "knockoff". "Replica" means counterfeit to me.
I think the important thing in this topic isn't to define what an homage is, but rather what an homage is not - and an homage is not a 1:1 copy of an already existing product. Maybe if you had a 1:1 copy of a watch from 1920 that hasn't been in production for nearly 100 years you could get away with calling it an homage, but copying the current production line of a Rolex model that is still being made right now is not an homage, it's making a cheap copy and a fake.
I first heard the word homage (in the uk) studying the norman conquest of Britain in 1066. After conquering England, William appointed dukes throughout the land from his knights. Each had Jurisdiction over their allocated lands, but they had to pay homage to their king once a year or some such - give him a slice of the money they'd made and pledge their loyalty.
I agree 10000000%! Fake watch with changed logo has nothing to do with a "HOMAGE". Especially if it comes from the manufacturer that has zero original designs and in their about page they say that.. Swiss watches are a rip off and they are able to give you "the same thing for cheaper" because they are "cutting the middle man".. yes I'm looking at you Parnis! For instance Seiko "Flighty" is a true homage of Navitimer or.. Orient Ray II is a real homage of Submariner.. it can be very similar but it needs to have its own character.. like Casio MDV106.. its close yet its own thing. A true homage is an affordable watch that you can wear with pride.. without hearing "nice rolex.. wait whats that?" Followed by your awkward explanation how cool is it because its just like the real thing only way cheaper. The term I use for watches like Parnis or Tissel is "legal fake".
My take would be that an hommage sits in its own category...to me the term is often misinterprated with copy or reissue...for example : Tudor bb58 : hommage to the tudor 7924 Steinhart: copy of rolex Hamilton PSR : reissue of the pulsar p2. My2cents....
I’m sorry - in today’s world every single successful item is then copied to form something else - for example your glasses 🤓 , your watches , your tv’s , cars , shoes , trainers , clothes and more . I think in terms of a watch - let’s say Steinhart for example - they are just making watches that Rolex deemed outdated .
Dear T3, it’s been a while since I agree 100% on something you say. It is about time we watch enthusiasts stop using the HOMAGE concept to replicas/rip-off.
