I think the list is probably very indicative of character specialists vs character popularity. Ram is "mid-tier" because she has specialists, but is also very popular. This leads to the specialists winning a ton of games and many of the other players balancing it by losing a ton. This is in contrast to Potemkin as a "mid-tier": he has character specialists that play a ton but isn't insanely popular. This inflates his win rate, placing him higher than expected, but he also struggles a lot, evening him out around the middle. Then there's Chipp: high specialization coupled with many weaker players dropping him early because they die in 2 hits. This means the best players Chipp has are giving the most representation by far - making him top 2. At least this feels how the math is working out.
This would also explain how Bridget ended up where she did; being a very popular character from release, but in a sort of reverse of Chipp, she maintained a lot of casual, lower-level players because of her fun-factor, while the only top player rep that stuck with her was Diaphone, and even he's experimenting with Sin now. The vast bulk of her results are coming from the lower end instead of the upper, shown in the fact that the required ELO to classify as Top 100 with Bridget is so much lower than average.
My problem with your system is that, if a character is strong, you shouldn’t feel too bad about it, I would have suggested that against a strong character, the points you lose is divided by their relative strength and not amplified, because while beating them does reward you handsomely, you definitely shouldn’t punish them for losing to the best character in the game
Maths nerd here, what you're doing is essentially a simplified version of the Sonneborn-Berger score. If you want to do your analysis but fancier, here's what I'd do. For each matchup, the characters score points equal to their chance of winning. These points go towards their base score. For example, if a character has a 36% chance of winning, they'll score 0.36 base points. Adding these up for all the matchups gives everyone's base scores, but we're not done yet! How do we reward strong counterpicks? Simple, we make a second score system that takes that into account. For each matchup, the characters score points equal to their chance of winning multiplied by their opponent's base score. So, if we have the 36% matchup from earlier but the opponent was a strong character with 20 base points, they'll earn 7.2 points. We also add on the square of the character's base score. This is so strong characters don't get screwed over by the fact the mirror matchup can never be better and 0.5-0.5. Finally, we tally up these new points for every matchup and that's the total score!
The chipp zanuff thing actually makes a little bit of sense. The issue in his relevancy tends to come from what his kit is capable of versus the general mechanical environment of the game. And what I mean by that: It has insane combo potential, and the raw number of hits is impressive. The over all damage however, is nominally balanced, if a little low depending on who you ask. Versus any players from what I'll say is. Maybe floor 8/9 up however, everyone tends to have pretty consistent set play and game plans they're trying to execute on. And they have damage that isn't as low/more options, whereas Chipp has to play in rush down, and that's his ONLY option. The end result has probably created both a small Chipp player base, AND, Chipp Players who treat his skill set like musical instruments. I.E.: "You don't practice until you're perfect, you practice until you stop making mistakes." Creating this over all match up spread that skews his position, because the lack of players + high skill is creating a skewed data distribution.
Bridget is a super interesting result here, as I don’t agree she’s bad atm, but i definitely see how she got here. Difficult to optimise damage, a midrange character with reasonable hurtboxes, low health, a very unique gameplan and, as you said, a large player base. Any combination of these factors could’ve done this to our girl, but hey, let’s get her boosted for the jokes Patch Notes Update: Ladies and Gentlemen, we got em
@@Astray_pgmg Reasonable for FGs in general. In any other game, her mobility and range would make her fine, maybe even broken depending on the game, but with the disjoints present in Strive, she ended up a bit overtuned in the wrong direction, I think.
The 100th or so Bridget is around 1600 ELO. Top 100s for a char like Ky starts at 1850+ so average top 100 Bridget being much lower ELO than other Top 100 opponents probably affected a lot. Doesn't seem to be a lot of players at a high level as her and she is definitely really hard to play at a high level due to having to optimize all her combos, setplay, pressure, and mixup options.
My friend is a #62 Bridget on Rating Update (well, last time I checked he was anyway). From watching his games it feels like bridget doesnt have extremely bad matchups against most of the cast, she just has an extremely bad matchup against 6P
not quite so simple when the bridget is actually good and can bait 6p with rolling back dash cancel into a full counter hit combo or just continuing to pressure
Faust main here,completely expecting its him or pot Edit: YEAH BABY THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR, THATS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT. I play with 2 of my friends regularly besides going to tournaments and one of them mains ram and the other mains gio. Typically it goes ram beats faust, faust beats gio, gio beats ram. However no matter how bad my boy gets it, I still love my funny bag boy, especially since my secondary is Zato and, while I live playing him, he requires me to use 2 of my braincells Which is a big problem because I only have 1. Also, absolutely love these videos, so much research is calculated and a lot of these go super in depth. Always love coming back to these vids. Great job on these
@@TheJacoliexp I know, best part is that my friend plays nago and baiken when we play against each other and still complains about how busted faust is.
Testament is funny being so low cause they’re actually very strong right now. The thing is that they’re matchups require a lot of strategy required to tackle the matchups consistently. Especially against characters like Ky since stun dipper literally destroys testaments autopilot. And also having below average defense makes them more easily run over by characters with higher damage/return
I actually called the bridget reveal when you started listing the usual suspects- I really love playing her, but it can feel genuinely scary trying to start offense with her when 6P can ruin her whole career. That said, YOU ALL SAW IT, JACK-O IS THE MOST BALANCED CHARACTER IN STRIVE. I'm going to keep that in my back pocket for anyone complaining about silly Halloween girl.
Testament being so low makes a whole lot of sense, they are basically a Ramlethal who requires more set-up to get started and as a result not many people play them still wont stop my friends to complain about them tho.
You’re so underrated you have taught me so much about dbfz, ggst, and just fighting games as a whole. Keep doing what you’re doing. (I know I sound like a bot but I’m not so f@$k off)
My guess for why bridget is struggling in this setting is due to her being just still fairly new to the point most of the top players havent fully solved her or settled on moving to her, while also from what I've generally heard, the consesus being she's mid-low tier. Which makes Sin being so high even weirder since he's so new, maybe because of some early games of people being knowledge checked on not knowing the matchup helped boost him?
Sin is way simpler imho, what's great about him was figured out pretty quickly and he doesn't seem to have relatively complicated strategies that I'm aware of. Brisket is technically a setplay character so I could see her being harder to break in
They've been out for months and I can't imagine that Bridget has such incredible depth that nobody has figured out how to play them properly. Imo Bridget was always loved because of the design and personality, their gameplay really isn't that incredible.
@@iminyourwalls8309 it took months for people to realize that nago was good and he doesn't seem like he has incredible depth. Also it took 20 years for somebody to win with Yoshi in smash Brothers so you know there's that.
Chipp is a sleeper bracket assassin CONFIRMED. Also keep that spreadsheet, because once the patch shakes up the power levels of the tiers you might wanna plug the new numbers in.
Haven’t watched the vid yet, gonna guess testament. Testament’s victory condition of stain state really doesn’t give them the victory. Edit: Bridget makes perfect sense. She is a set play mix up with low damage. The other mix up characters all can go straight into their mix with no delay and get more value out of it.
I have a theory about brisket. Many casuals are picking up basket, and loosing because basment needs to be right 2-3 times more due to her low hp and guts. Add in her tricky combo game and 2 step neutral, casuals struggle to succeed with her.
I wanna put up a more detailed explanation as to why Jacko beats Bridget so hard. The worst offender to Bridgets gameplan is Jackos Shields. Unlike axl, Bridget is a lot more predictable with her long range moves. Despite shield being really good against big ass pokes and whatnot, versus axl, its really hard to gauge when to shield versus him. Versus Bridget however, way too easy. Giving jacko an advantage constantly. Bridget has to put in an offence and stay super close range in order to have a good chance. If the jacko does not use shield, the matchup is suddenly normal. The threat of shields puts Bridget in such a scared situation. She cannot do anything, her moves are reactable to shield against. She has to go for a no-mixup mixup with a throw. And as a jacko who loves to use shield, I have a gameplan ready for that as well. Resulting in Bridget absolutely not able to do anything. You would think closer range characters would have a hard time versus shields, but the fact of the matter is, they wont throw out attacks so easily while bridget does. Same with testament to a degree, even Ram falls prey to shields. Yet she and other characters still have an in that keeps Jacko on her toes. Bridget does not. Literally, Bridgets best approach so far in my opinion is to burst versus jacko, and skate into jacko. Jacko does not have enough time to put down a minion and shield. If jacko bursts tho, she does. Goldlewis, a character who can 1-shot Jacko absolutely denies Goldlewis, and yet Goldlewis has some methods to bypass Jackos Shields. Il say it again. Bridget, cannot. Many other characters, yes. Bridget, no.
I'm a Pot player and I already don't consider him to be THE worst so I kinda' was just along for the ride on this one, glad to see you're experiencing and possibly also having fun with making the video and testing this new format. Danganronpa music as BGM was a delight too. Also hi o/ and thank you for your video
I am totally using this to prove that I am godlike with testament. I always knew they were bottom tier and that I was just better than everyone else. This is the proper use of a tier list.
Hey man I just wanted to say congrats on clocking in almost 700 hours, thats some real gamer shit that I'm not even close to competing with. Good job Gekko!
I don't even play guilty gear but Pot seems like the actual candidate from what I've seen so far. I mean you need to eat glue and perfectly calculate how to land only one good move that in your movelist.
The thing about Pot is that, while he's not that great, he IS a very simple character to play. He doesn't have a lot that he's trying to do, so once you know the few set-ups he has, all of your brain power gets to be funneled into watching and reacting to the opponent's habits. He's a prime character for letting the tippy top players that these stats are looking at skill-gap players near their level simply because the opponent almost always has more things to pay attention to in the match, which is probably skewing his W/L upwards.
Would love to see an update of this in a few months give or take, would be interesting to see how things have changed! Some bad characters have gotten some good changes and some formerly good characters got put in the forever box
I think that an interesting way to maybe squeeze a little bit more accuracy out of this would to instead of giving the more popularly decided "op" characters a boost, you effect the numbers based on pick rate, so if you have a really good matchup against a highly picked character that you're more likely to come across randomly online, you'd have a higher rank, and lower for the opposite.
I'm honestly not surprised with how brisket ended up. Every single time I fight one I feel like they just get steamrolled. Seemed like a really fun character but never felt like they were strong
I 100% firmly believe brisket is so low because of the wave of trans women who have never played a fighting game but love the basket so they walk into the flames
I play chipp and anji. chipp seems about right. When i lose i always feel like its a skill issue, because i have more options than the opponent. Usually though, i just cant adapt in matches because i die so quickly. have to constantly watch replays to figure out what was happening.
My initial guess for lowest was Faust, but he came up earlier in the video, along with Testament, another one I was suspicious might be low (and together two of my favorite three characters, alongside Ramlethal). So after those were eliminated, I tried to think of a character who might actually be lowest. Bridget occurred to me for a moment and I almost voted then, but I held back, thinking that I didn't have any actual evidence for that and from all I've heard she's pretty alright. I figured I must be wrong and decided to just keep watching to see who it actually is. Turns out it was actually Bridget. Well then. I wonder what's going on there, because, yeah, that seems odd.
I think it's just that Bridget doesn't really have any stable top player representation. The fact that the ELO required to count as a Top 100 Bridget is so much lower than the average means that the players filling out the lower end of her 100 have weaker win/loss ratios than the lower ends for most other characters, but unlike other characters that are typically consider weak like Faust and Anji, no Top Players stuck with her to balance out her results. The only ones were KizzieKay, who plays other characters all the time for youtube content, and Diaphone, and both of them have been focusing on Sin since he released.
A few weeks ago I checked out these MU charts and when I saw Bridget and went “oh. Oh hell nah I can’t take these seriously from a balance perspective”
I think it's because, as you said about Bridget. She's a casual character. If casual players are fighting more seasoned players, this would definitely alter the spreadsheet results
In the year of our lord 2022, with all the tierlist videos in here, you're one of the few if not only ones that actually does a proper tier list. thank you+
I always knew I was hard carried by my main but 14 points wow but a think I try to remember when rating characters is the skill level a charachter like pot for example would mostly likely be top tier if in groep of players that never played a fighting game before but will fall the higher the skill level
If I were to guess, Ram is one of those characters whose broken stuff is relatively easy to use, so while she's busted at mid and high levels of play, once you hit the very top other players can use their characters more difficult broken stuff and make her less relevant. AKA, Ram being mid is a side effect of only looking at the top 100
@@timaragon well the consensus in America used to be that Nago was low tier. Then he was considered only top 5. He's only now being considered top because of his overwhelming tournament results and because of his online win rates. In fact most top players have been saying that tier lists were wrong and that the casuals were right. Furthermore in Japan the consensus is actually that Ram is mid tier which is accurate when compared to her online win rates and tournament results.
@@rexflores8461 zando winning the mixup, ram appearing in countless top 8s in tons of stacked tournaments, plenty of online tournament wins, etc. what are u talking abt, her results definitely back her up she's fundamentally an extremely solid pick because she has everything a character could possibly ask for. screen control, damage, defensive utility, meter gain and usage, mix, you name it, she has it (and most of the time has it in spades). even though she has gimmicks, she doesn't need to rely on them because her core kit is extremely strong at every level of play. she rewards solid play really well, and that makes her very difficult to fight. a lot of her interaction is rps based, but the reward is heavily skewed in her favour also japan thinking she's mid tier means nothing. japan thinks hc is mid tier, but most people agree that's just because japan isn't really using happy chaos as well as other regions
Its really funny having tier discussions with my friends who are significantly less invested in the game than I am. I'm playing Pot (generally considered bad by everyone) and they'll tell you he's mid to high tier. A friend of mine plays Ram but refuses to block and kind of just flails far slash heavy slash and everyone thinks she's weak. I think its all about your perception and what you see out of other players that informs your own personal feelings. This is a more "scientific" approach but it's still colored by which top players are on which characters and popularity. How "solved" a character is also plays into this a ton too. HC was considered bad until steady aim loops were found
My genuine guess as to who bottom 1 is in this particular list, is Bridget. Her health and damage and reliance on mixups makes most of her matchups pretty volitile EDIT: fucking called it. I-no and Millia ALSO being so low speaks to how this method generally doesn't favor Brisket's archetype of "mix you into the dirt, but if you hit me once I'm dead" because that character archetype's match-ups will generally be SUUUPER volatile. This also makes Brisket a bad tournament character, which means she isn't played by a ton of top players which leads to more people around my skill level getting counted in the top 100
Ironically I clicked on this video to see where Bedman, Asuka and Johnny were placed, but since this was made before their release, I figured I'd stick around anyway to watch this vid! Very fun watch 😂
I worked out the exact percentages according to the top 1000 players as of 1/22/2023 and the top 3 characters are GoldLewis #1(+2.4%), Axl #2(+2.1%), and JackO #3(+1.9%) and the bottom 3 characters are Bridget #22(-4.6%), Sin #21(-3.1%), and Happy Chaos #20(-2.6%). Edit: percent correction (The percent represents the average win rate advantage or disadvantages across the cast with data from the top 1000 players in each character and correcting based on elo rank) 1/21/2023
Huh. Interesting... I mained Faust when I played, and kept hearing how bad he was in the tier lists. Doesn't look like his Match-ups have improved much.
19:56 my guess is Pot…he’s my main, I’m new to GG and picked him cuz I thought he looked cool, finally decided to switch up and I’m loving Baiken! Edit: wtf!?!? Bridget!?!?!
I think the reason Bridget is so low is because her top 100 players are worse players. The reason for that being that when she released, she was okay, not amazing and not terrible, so there wasn't much reason for super high level players to drop their characters and pick her up.
I’m surprised you were soo surprised at Chipp being high up, I mean sure it’s surprising that he’s number two here, but recent discourse has had most people thinking he’s high tier. Bridget certainly might be pretty bad to just off of risk reward, but she’s far better than -19. I don’t think there are a lot of good players playing Bridget and she isn’t one of the easier characters on the roster to pilot well. I also think the newness of Bridget is still hurting her rating update stats to some degree.
chipp and bridget, low damage speedy characters with no health. Except bridget has to go through like 5 extra hoops to do what chipp does. Im surprised bridget is that low, but im not surprised chipp has a high score.
@@darthhydreigon820 Sin is an obviously and straightforwardly strong character, Bridget is certainly both weaker and requires more effort to make work. Bridget is weak for sure, but not -19, worst in game weak I don't think.
As a Bridget main, she absolutely isn't the worst character in the game However, I will admit she has some REALLY upsetting matchups, 5S isn't as disjointed as you'd think and it leads to some awkward looking hits where you're hit from the other side of the screen lol She's not bad, she's just weird, and as such it might lead to some strange information
@@caldineescogroft8831 She ain't as bad as Faust, I've played both a little and one is definitely a lot worse than the other Could be a cope though, I don't know much of the game's balance, so for all I know Bridget could genuinely be ass
@@kitkatiecat no, its because she have a terrible mach up agaist faust every time i see a bridget player they insta cancel the mach wen they see im a faust player
so i usually just play with friends locally or online, and we have come to the conclusion that axl and sol are one of the strongest characters, whilst happy chaos is the weakest. my whole worldview was just shattered into pieces
