Why Hot-Hatches are Now Faster than Old Supercars 

Supercharged focus rs?

599 Evo is just God's avatar in a car's form.

VTEC is valve lift, not timing

I would love it if you could find any one of those older supercars that you mentioned, put modern tires on them, and set some lap times. Then we can see how they compare to their old lap times with old tires and modern cars with modern tires. For example how much faster is a Lamborghini Aventador than a Lamborghini Murcielago if they have the same tires?

I have my RS. Not the fastest an easiest Car for the Track, but modifiing and driving is so great.

ikr normally sedans or suvs are seen as family cars in europe a hatchback is more for younger persons who dont need much space because they either live with their parents, alone or gf/bf.. or its the wifes car to just get to work

If Honda approached that ideology they might beat the Trophy-R 😂

@@everydaydose7779 but the civic is more popular (especially with tuners), more practical, and cheaper

Notably on very much road specific tyres Bridgestone S007 RS.

@@pantherdxn4835 and more reliable. modern Peugeot engines suck ass.

It's that and also the manufacturers used to just shove a car round the 'Ring and see how fast it went. Now they hire the track for a week in search of the best time, so the performance is honestly a bit misleading. The FK8 just isn't that fast- basically anything with a sub-8 time on the 'Ring will demolish it in reality. Always sounds like I'm bashing the CTR, I'm not- I use it as a reference because it's the one I considered buying so researched, it's great ☺ (sounds awful though).

Nailed it. Better tires and "tryhard" drivers. That's pretty much it. That, and when cars like the Veyron and Zonda went around the track it's quite obvious they weren't driving them very hard. No one cared back then and it wasn't worth risking crashing multi million dollar cars

@@StrykerV8 Exactly that. Hatches going round only 10s slower than a Zonda F? Nah- stick me, a fairly average driver, in a Zonda F and there is no driver on the planet getting within 10s in an untuned Civic. Admittedly that's with the caveat that I have the balls to do it and won't crash, both of which rule out ever trying it ☺ Nonetheless, my Cayman is 5s qiucker round Laguna Seca than an FK8 in equal conditions with the same driver trying equally hard (that result is consistent across multiple tracks), so that's 20s on the 'Ring...making my car 10s quicker than a Zonda? Except my car laps most tracks in identical times to an F430 which is older, cheaper and unquestionably slower than a Zonda. I'm seeing maths issues here!

@@ApothecaryTerry according to my calculations you are too scared to drive your Cayman hard like that and are at least 30 seconds behind the zonda. Better stick to standing next to your car with your Porsche windbreaker.

@@UluvDuddes 1stly, jealousy is a bad look. 2ndly, yeah...of course I have neither the balls or the skill to match a decent driver in a Zonda, I'm not enough of an idiot to claim otherwise. I'm an above-average driver, I've done enough racing and rallying to know where I am which is definitely not a pro. My point had nothing to do with that- it was that even a non-pro like me is quicker in a Cayman or Zonda than a pro in these hot hatches...I've driven an FK8 hard and I'm about 10s quicker in the Cayman on most tracks. 3rdly though, I bought a Porsche because it's fun and sounds amazing. I mock Porsche drivers more than you ever will, I really don't care about the badge. Porsche drivers are all tossers...not BMW/Audi driver level, but tossers nonetheless. I am one now, nobody is excluding me from that statement. Just don't think you're being clever for thinking it, we're all way ahead of you there 😁

Yea and if those old supercars with new tyre technology would smack these hot hatches

@Le-Johnny modern GT-Rs are lot faster than the early year models with changes to Suspension and power

@Le-Johnny shut up are you 12

@@RCLepcha Smack? Not a chance. Eke some ground back? Most definitely.

@Le-Johnny That's the thing, each car only has one official entry for the Nurburgring time. It may have been perfect conditions or slightly cool and/or damp on the track in places. The attempt has got to be taken when it's booked so no rescheduling. I would imagine days like this are expensive for may reasons. Then there's a chance that other traffic may have hindered them or in some cases been an advantage (getting a nice long tow down a long straight would be advantageous!) The drivers too, the times are set by not necessarily people who do it for a living but still competent drivers but not as skilled as someone who used to be say a works DTM driver. Basically, long story short I do agree with what you're saying!

Finding a £500 305gti nowadays

I think you are referring to a 205 gti or a 309 gti.

Back in the 70s when we did circuit sprints (aka track days now) a mate had an Escort Twink with top shelf Pirellis. One meeting he turned up with near-knackered old slicks off an F3 car and went three seconds a lap quicker.

@@5CGQ "a mate had an escort twink" What?! lol

@@aramondehasashi3324 Sorry; that was in-period shorthand for "Ford Escort Twin Cam".

I am really curious on how the F1 would perform, I am sure it can hold his own against some supercars

@@Firebolt1729 The F1 would actually need to have it's suspension stiffened quite a bit to match modern extreme performance and road legal semi slicks. IIRC, the OEM spring rates were very much optimized with road comfort in mind more than lap times, with rates over 1.5Hz but well below 2Hz. The F50 had a snap oversteer issue near and over the limit, but more overall grip might mitigate this a bit. The F50 had much more sporty suspension setup than the F1 and should need much less significant tweaking. Super grippy tires for the AWD Bugatti EB110 would be interesting to say the least.

Good point....cause that comparison of older car tire technology vs new don't make sense...

F1 V10 Ferrari on slicks 😋😋😋

Ah... Excuses.

Bet it can't beat my Supra

@@06dpa my dads daddy’s uncles cousins sisters son has a twin turbo viper that has 30 thousand hrsprs get on my levels bruh

That video is gold man 😂😂

@@honeybadger0562 Moar powr baby!

lol

Aye very true.

There's a difference between"quick" and "fast". I had an '87 CRX with 90 hp engine that felt pretty quick in traffic but on the highway a more powerful car would leave it behind. I'd take quick any day, more fun every day and the fun comes at more legal speeds.

@Green Mamba Games My dad had an '80 Chevette. Top speed: 65 mph. It had to be towed to the dealership when it was 13 months old; The front pulley FELL off of the engine while he was driving to work on I-75.....

Those emission-choked American cars are embarrassing.

Americans often complain about strict emission laws for the low performance compared to European models but as far as I've seen, the EU has been a lot stricter than California from time to time. I guess it's just unwillingness of American companies to put more money into engine development back in the day that caused such disparities.

@@ijustfelldown American car companies build cars in order to make a profit; European companies make a profit by building cars. There is a subtle difference that is very important.

Doppelkupplungsgetriebe, a perfectly straightforward German word that describes exactly what it does. I love the German language.

double=doppel clutch=Kupplung transmission=Getriebe Same same...

@@Leynad778 see, it’s not that Germans like long words, it’s that they hate spaces. Probably something to do with efficiency.

@@andrewahern3730 No, it's one physical object so it gets one word. I think that's the logic (says my German intuition).

@@TheChannel1978 you must be German with that sense of humor

Definitely. The Rover 200 BRM came from the factory with an LSD in 1998 and betting if we dig back in time there will be others. Might have been optional in some cases but essentially an LSD was available.

Yeah, the original Mini Cooper was a brilliant car that can punch above its weight.

The original road legal go kart right there

@@Matty.Hill_87 go kart's arent road legal?

@@karmveer240 just a saying for a car that that good around the corners

@@Matty.Hill_87 oo

I've had near 300 bhp fwd cars with virtually no torque steer to speak of. I think modern reviews are made by people who are overwhelmed by Bluetooth controller feedback.

My Focus ST originally had terrible torque stear. But after new socks, springs, rear engine mount, and a traction bar between the A-arms, torque stear is mostly gone.

That's a banging first car, 250hp! My first car (and current) is a VW polo with a 1.2l engine and 54hp lmao

@@aadi8568 My family loves sleeper cars and so do I. The very first car I drove was my fathers 300whp rwd C-class Mercedes. You can find cars with surprising power for cheap if you disregard most common and popular ones, like my first car: 600€ Opel with 1000+ man hours of work or my second car Ford Puma with 190hp also for the same 600€. Honestly I would suggest looking at early Fiesta ST or Puma if you like the size of that polo, they are both cheap and very easy to maintain. Assuming you have space to do said wrenching..

@@Salesman9001 I would like a fiesta st but insurance will kill me

It makes sense for the city especially if you’re driving less than 5 miles

I've no experience with them but they just translate on screen as a superbly solid, consistent performance hatch, they also happen to look rather good!

there is more to worry about that just raw performance, feedback is very important most of the time i have a focus RS mk3, and i like it... but its hard to tell what the car is doing. i had a mazda RX8 before, and the RX8 feels so much more responsive. it gave me way more confidence pushing the limits, because i could feel the limits approaching. I could drift an off-ramp without really worrying about it. for sure the RS is faster, but its not as enjoyable, in large part because I can't just chuck it around with confidence. in the snow - thats a whole different story. RS 100% all day.

@@isays Given how well the chassis is praised on the RS for being chuckable and with good feedback and composed on the limit that us surprising given the comparison with the frankly (in the wet particularly) nerve wracking RX8. A good chassis but not as confidence inspiring I'd have thought. I've not driven the RS but have driven the RX8 so I can only go on what the bulk of testers and reviews say about it.

​@@skylined5534 i kinda think you've got that backwards. the rx8 was universally praised for its excellent feedback and ease of control. most criticism of the chassis was in comparison with the rx7 which was a 2door sports coupe. the "in the wet" comment makes me believe you're talking about the top gear review, but were overwhelmingly positive about it, only in the postscript they had a complaint about the OEM tires. I got mine used and it didn't have OEM tires, so IDK if that was true or not, but it was excellent with pilot sport tires. the focus RS is universally described has having numb steering feedback and overly harsh suspension. oh the RS has grip for _daaaaays_ - endless grip. but it doesn't communicate that to you. for an expert driver doing hot laps on a closed circuit, thats probably not as important, once they've learned the car's limits and track conditions. but I'm comparing two different classes of car. the focus RS does very well for a hot-hatch, or sports-trim-of-an-economy-car. its not BAD, just not as fun to drive as cars purpose built from the ground up to be fun, like the miata or brz, even if it performs better. unless there is snow of course. it absolutely dominates in snow.

New brakes hopefully

Just like drift car trying to get good lap🤣

It would go a lot faster... but not enough to touch any modern performance cars.

mmm yes, I have a 1999 toyota celica GTS with TRD bumper + wing and while it looks fast, sometimes I wonder if the family SUVs around me are actually faster lol

@@samcharles1166 they are

The changes weren't so big as to enable seconds upon seconds to be gained. Sure at Flugplatz they evened out the crest a bit, but that doesn't save you five seconds.

youtube is just shopping channel now any reason to talk about products it seems...quite a lots going on irl but all these influential dudes ploughing on business as usual..

The best comparison to dispel or prove the track being faster would be this: Get at least 5 cars in peak condition which set fastest laps back then and if possible try to fit them with as close as like for like tyres and let them go for it. Preferably the same drivers of each car too if possible. That'd be interesting!

Not just Schwedenkreuz is full throttle in a GT3 now also thanks to the new tarmac. They repave every year considerable parts and make the track smoother and faster. It's probably more than one sec. quicker per year and this season there is 2,5 km fresh asphalt on the GP-track.

Is tyre really more “popular” around the word than tire or is it just because of the channels i watch

@@Mrmeeseeks762 I'm not sure. If I recall correctly, the tyre/tire difference is like color/colour or some other similar word pairs - american vs british english. Since I'm not a native speaker I use any spelling I feel like at the moment. XD

@@SpadajSpadaj lmfao i use both colours but mainly that one Canadian and American arent to different but tire is the same

@@Mrmeeseeks762 I'm tired of your shit

@@siddarthramani6103 who tf are you 💀

Lots of people say that "slower" cars are better for the street, and I gotta agree, you can actually push it without breaking the law

@@Pika_Gabe used to own an frs and i miss it for that. I could actually rev it high and accelerate a lot without all of a sudden risking a license suspension.

all depends on weight, but with how fat cars are now i think closer to 300hp is better.

@@Pika_Gabe it's not actually how fast the car is that makes it fun. It's actually how raw the car is and how it feels at low speed. Big heavy modern sports cars feel slow as they are completely nannied and planted even on the edge of grip. They don't have as much feel. That is actually the problem.

@@LawrenceTimme That makes sense. I know peoe love cars like the Veloster N because it's literally 4 wheels and a seat and it feels more like the older cars.

I reckon they would be as fast as today's hot hatches

would love to see an old supercar with a complete engine rebuild and new tires driven by a professionell to find out

@@keisuketakahasi4584 I'm thinking something like a GT40 with a Voodoo swapped in, 6 speed, and modern tires. Along with whatever suspension changes need to be made to accommodate the new forces involved with the new tires.

To be more accurate, the original VTEC changed the entire camshaft profile, changing both lift and duration. It's practically impossible to increase lift without increasing duration, especially for a road car with camshafts that are supposed to last long.

"T" for timing.

Good idea. Focus on digital car control and stability aids and you will have a full episode.

Just what I was about to say. I don't think Ford Europe have ever used a supercharged engine?

@@davekennedy6315 Never-turbo only.

All turbocharged engines are supercharged, not all supercharged engines use turbos ;)

Also it has an automatic torque biasing diff, not a viscous coupling

@@meekrab9027 what?

I was thinking this too…

Only thing is all those Meganes have since fallen to bits so nobody remembers. Most of the Focus RSs are still around though.

@@soundseeker63 firstly, no, they have not and many are still going strong :) including mine. Secondly, nobody cares - it's history they are talking about here. First is first..

@@Tsynique "Many" being maybe 5% of the (already very small) numbers originally sold..? Literally can't recall the last time I saw a Mk2 Megane on the road of ANY version, never mind an RS!

Their brakes tended to be top of the line for their era, but if you are changing the tires for modern variety, why not do the same with the brakes? Leave the engines as they are, because older cars tended to be lighter as well.

Forza is a hell of a drug.

@@skylined5534 dude. lol. Not because u still live with your mom everyone else does the same.

​@@skylined5534xD

Talking about chassis rigidity isn't applicable though. There wasn't a general adhered to standard unlike say tyres. Advances in suspension technology has definitely made cars faster but it's still not applicable. Where do you draw the line? Bushings have always been 'solid' for the most part where performance cars are concerned. Most use synthetic compounds with differing shore rates depending upon application. The ultimate is to use ball joints/ spherical joints to replace most bushings but these can wear quickly depending on location and can make for a harsh and unforgiving ride.

@@skylined5534 more rigid chassis alows more rigid bushings, more rigid bushings alows more rigid suspension. Uniball is not for street car so only on certain positions. All this together helped, little by little plus tires and all that is mentioned in video. Tuning is setting A LOT of small pieces so they work together as one...

@@jurcicmax237 You missed the point. Bushing have always been 'solid' asides certain specialist types where NVH eliminatation is priority. In some cases even street cars will have ball joint and spherical joint set ups. Most modern super cars for example. Heck, look at the front of an R50 or R53 mini, the lower location point for the front of the bottom arms which is usually a rubber bush is a solidly mounted ball joint. The rest from factory are polyurethane bushings. I have one so I know. I don't know what a uni ball is but I assume you mean what everyone else calls a ball joint or in some cases a spherical joint. While torsional rigidity for chassis is desirable the same can't be said for just having uncompromisingly stiff suspension, in some cases it will make for a slower car.

pretty much the real question here, as the EV's takeover is now inevitable

@@adlibbed2138 Honestly, I'm still not convinced about a take over, with present day tech. Fossil fuels have energy density, price and convenience that EVs are just not there yet to replace.

Manual gearboxes are already very hard to find in North America, but once internal combustion engines are legislated out of existence soon, they will be extinct everywhere. Our only hope is wide adoption of "zero emissions" synthetic fuel, but I doubt that happens...and not sure it's a viable alternative in any case.

@@ujjvalchauhan6628 With world leaders making decisions for us, not sure it will matter. Automakers wont continue development of cars they legally can't sell.

@@jbm0866 Sounds like common sense is being legislated out of existence. Will they force the economy to make electric vehicles profitable, somehow, so that when a flood hits, and there's carnage here and there, the bad old gas guzzlers won't be need?

In that case I'd love to see how much of an advantage that is. A factory fresh say Mac F1 with equivalent fresh tyres. Could be interesting... or very dull... I dunno 😂

Not exactly. Today golf or civic have 350HP but 15 year old supercar have 450-550 HP. But that is peak power. Power at low RPM(let's say less than 4000 RPM) is actually higher on today's golf R than on 15 year old Maserati granturismo. They didn't have today engine management, turbo, valve timing, spark adjust, mixture control... and gearbox. Also gearbox is better today. Gear ratio is better. 6 or 7 or 8 gearbox speed tuned to 250 kmh is plenty optimised. 6 speed gearbox tuned to 330 kmh is quite shit consider engine poor power at low RPM. So during race Maserati granturismo 470 HP is inly sometimes more powerful than golf R 350hp. It's also much heavier which means more heat in tires, brakes. Add those smart power delivery differential gismos which completely negate front wheel drive disadvantages... Old cars are just not faster OK Ferrari 600+ hp... That would do the trick. I mean 620 vs 350... Can't beat that

I think the better conclusion is how much value there is in handling with current tech in terms of tires, suspension, weight, and differentials that a mere 300hp FWD compact were able to beat a much more capable car with older tech around a race track. Meaning, handling beats out power all the time

@@dragancrnogorac3851 Golf R is 4WD.

599 is a GT, it’s not an all-out sports/supercar

That's interesting! Do you have a source for the article? I wouldn't mind reading that!

@@skylined5534 just google 'nissan gtr 2010 nurburgring time' and you'll have a lot of articles regarding this

Anytime a non german car beats the nurburgring lap record, a big controversy starts, I wonder why xD

Even though they showed the R35, it is faster than the R34 GT-R, but then again an old Cobalt SS is as fast as a R34 GT-R around the ring.

Maybe he mean skyline gtr ? Then he's correct

Max in a civic would smoke the shit out of you. You wouldn't get close to the stated times of a gtr because you're not a professional driver and wouldn't be able to drive at 10/10ths but just a few times in a lap.

No shit brain nofitzwellinurhead? You think?

Tuning in GT and many other games are simplifications but the video describes the real technical advancements (other than tyres) that also make modern cars faster. Differentials in video games are usually handled in vague terms, but how exactly diffs work can make a big difference.

And if I'm not wrong, it also had a factory LSD before Ford, also.

True, but driving a supercar comes with baggage...the kind of baggage that would be fun for a couple months then quickly become a bother. (Dings and scratches, putting on mileage, living up to the lifestyle expectations etc) I vastly prefer cars that I can drive every day.. rain, shine, snow, whatever. An expensive garage queen would give me anxiety every time I brought it out.

@@jbm0866 anyone rich disagrees with you haha.

@@JacesOwnWorld Thats not always true. I know several people who could easily own a supercar or a few, but choose to drive more understated cars. Not ordinary or cheap cars by any means, just nothing too flashy. Some would prefer to drive a Porsche 911 from the 70-early 90's...after Singer has done their thing to it of course.

@@jbm0866 yeah as a software engineer out of the group of 12 only 3 own very expensive vehicles. we like to spend out money on other stuff or going on vacations etc. $160-$240k for a vehicle and maintenence is not reslly worth it. wealthy people are wealthy cause they are frugal with their cash, so I can agree with you for sure.

@@jbm0866 even a standard 911, it's an experience. You drive a 3.2 or even a 964, you don"t say ever say all cars feel and drive the same, or at least they didn't use to nowadays... should I be surprise Porsche sell more EV than 911 ? meh...

Still a V6.

@@skylined5534 A VR6 is a VR6, not a V6. It has some of the V6 features, yet it‘s still a VR6.

vr6 its à v6 15 degrées invented by Lancia , with only one head ,one blok engine, interesting v6 or not v6 ,that is the question.?😆

Normally . Its for your grandma not for u

Meh, Isn't being a good driver the ability to adapt? they all have their pro's and cons .

It doesnt feel the same as RWD, I'll give you that, but modern hot hatches no longer plow through corners thanks to suspension geometry, electronic limited slip diffs and computer controlled brake trickery that works imperceptably to rotate the car when needed. Drive the latest GTI back to back one from a few generations ago and you'll see what I mean. I did this with a 2016 GTI I used to own and a friends restored MK2 GTI...the old one is still fun to drive, but not as good in tight cornering. (He had Michelin pilot sport tires versus my horrible Pirelli's, so that wasnt it)

@@goshu9718 Or for Forza heroes like you and the OP.

I think Hyundai will continue to sell the Veloster N in the US. They are just discontinuing all other Veloster models.

@@bolt5564 Rumor from some dealers is that they are done after 2022.

@@gwcrispi Oh, I hadn't heard that. If that's true I am very disappointed because the Veloster N is one of my favorite cars.

I dont think Honda ever offer TypeR with auto trans. Honda never done that they think hothatches small cheap but fun cars which they right, golf r just a golf with faster drivetrain nothing more its not a hothatch for me and nearly all the car enthusiast

Why would you want an auto in a FWD hot hatch? For the same money (and less ownership cost, surprisingly) just buy a 981 Cayman S with a PDK if you want that. Or an M2. Hot hatches should be manual! ...I'll let the RS3 off since it sounds so good. BMW and Merc can stick their hatches up their arses, frankly.

Tire technology is a red herring. A car should be evaluated using its original rubber. Otherwise it will not accurately reflect its standing in its era. Your F1 example IMO illustrates a more important performance-optimizing element: stability control. Rowan Atkinson couldn't make it down his driveway without crashing his F1. Setting the Ring record with one required a professional race driver. But thanks to stability control and related digital assists like torque vectoring, advanced traction control, and transmissions that shift smarter and faster than any driver, the extreme driving skill level required for a record time in a 10-year-old exotic is negated by computer-controlled hot hatches where a moderately skilled driver can extract every ounce of his car's performance simply by keeping the throttle planted and steering around the corners.

@@johntechwriter thats like saying someone running in clogs is slower than someone running with running shoes on... its not exactly wrong, but its hardly fair either. The chassis and engine are always limited by the tyres, and by design tyres are meant to be replaced, so unless you eliminate the variables such as tyres used, weather conditions etc. the times are not comparable

£60k 20 years ago is roughly £34k.

I don't think you know how inflation works....

Lol you got it backwards :)