Why IWC's New Release Is So Controversial. (Ingenieur) 

The movement is made by Val Fleurier which is a Richemont movement subsidiary. You can find the same movement in Baume and Mercier and other Richemont brands. This ingenieur is overpriced obviously, but my biggest disappointment is just the design - it should not have those gaudy crown guards!

Because it's twice as expensive as it should be, it's very simple.

Some things has to be clarified here: 1st of all the cal.32100 as various finishing depending on the Richemont brand. At IWC they actually do perlage & côte de Genève eventhough the movement is not visible. People should stop saying that it is an ETA movement. It is not it only has the same measurement. 2)the polishing. If there is one thing that i absolute love from the brand is the level of detail and work done on the polishing with their watches especially with the new ingenieur. Ask AP and they will tell you that if its that expensive its mainly due to the polish of the bracelet and case. 3) the competitors: Yes their main competitors are the Nautilus & the Royal Oak. Other brands are just following the trend and has no heritage from Genta. The IWC does. From a price perspective i find it funny to say that its way to expensive for what it is. The classic Royal Oak & Nautilus have the most basic movement from their respective brand. Have a poor power reserve, are not anti magnetic, does not have a pressurized saphire glass & have a basic WR and yet they are over double the price of the new Ingenieur and no one is questionning their prices. In conclusion, from the 70’s era of Genta’s work they have the best deal out of the 3 and being priced between the Alpine Eagle & the loreatto while having a a fantastic history is to me a very good value for money. You guys should watch the video of Wei Ko giving his opinion on the price and the market for this new watch and i believe that he is right. Cheers everyone.

This is going to be huge for Tissot PRX sales

I think $5-6k is a reasonable starting point for a non-precious metal 3-hander from a brand like IWC, and then they can fairly add a premium for the Genta design, anti-magnetic tech (which I’m not sure most of us care that much about, but I get that the watch has to have it for historical reasons), and 120-power reserve. That gets you to perhaps $8k, maybe $9k at most.

Great to see Harris going from strength to strength. He has outgrown Theo and doesn’t need him anymore. Change the locks, and rebrand the channel Harris Unleashed :-) Completely agree with you Beautiful watch, messed up the price, turned a big goal into an own goal. I’m joking btw huge respect for Christian and Michael, love their solo releases but the banter in the collabs is priceless. The Lennon and McCartney of watch videos.

I was so excited for this release. Unbelievably so actually. I went down to the boutique pre-show because I knew the new one was coming. I had every intention to purchase it as my first new from boutique/AD watch ever. I sold multiple pieces to fund it actually. I was expecting 8k at the most. But then I saw 12k. Absolutely insane given the Mark XX on a bracelet with the same movement is literally half the price. I got my long lusted after 3239 instead. I have yet to receive it in the mail but I’m super super excited

No in-house movement for the price! It's a simple Val Fleurier movement based on the ETA 2836 movement. Cheap 2$ Alibaba butterfly clasp. No micro adjustment and so on...

The absolute STAR of 2023 Watches & Wonder fair.

You should have your own show Christian is holding you back 😂

If you want to spend 12k on a not royal oak get a Girard Perregaux Laureato. Get it grey or second hand for well under 10k.

I agree with the 8k price point, especially with the discontinuation of the Milgauss that was around that price point, this would have been a watch with a similar back story that would appeal to the same crowd. It feels like IWC is trying to push the brand more up market, but in the enthusiast space they'll be limited in support as long as they're using modified ETA movements.

If you want something similar to Royal Oak or Nautilus you have GP Laureato (the oldest of the three designs). A watch that costs similar to what it was before. The problem with IWC is that they took a $5k watch they had? They still power it with the improved ETA movement. They changed the design to be closer to the original, paid a little to hype on the internet and try to sell it to you for 2x more money. So a pretty cool watch is now getting shit and YES it's overpriced for what it is.

Finally someone calling out IWC. The Mark XX is the same watch with arguably a better bracelet and adjustable clasp.

Overpriced or not, this is the best looking watch (for me) that I’ve ever seen. It’s perfect and I want it. Nobody bats an eye at a $20k stainless steel genta watch from Patek or AP, but as soon as someone else does it, everyone freaks out. I think this is better looking than a nautilus or Royal oak at half the price.

For me an amateur with limited budget, I may choose to buy 1 piece of Baume & Mercier Riviera 39mm with Baumatic 120 hours USD5500 (inc VAT) or a new Tudor Black Bay GMT Polar white (newest 2023) dial USD4500. If I am not mistaken, both IWC & Baume are using the same caliber (as sister's company of Richemont) IWC Ingenieur 40mm 32111 caliber 120 hours USD11,700. Am I right?

as with basically everyone else -- it is absolutely gorgeous and overpriced. it is only priced that way as you said -- to be the less expensive Genta icon. IWC as a whole is having epic price increases. I bought the racing green pilots chronograph 41 (on leather strap) in Jan 2022 at $6500 and it has since then increased to $7600. The Mark series used to be in the 5K range is now over that. I feel like IWC, Omega, Brietling, and others are trying to gain access into Rolex price territory which is stupid. As much as I think the new Omega 57s are badass, I'd rather spend 9K on a rolex than on an Omega. Once it hits a certain price point of any sports watch, it seems it would be better to get the Rolex instead....of course depending on the model and complication of the watch you are looking for. 7600 for Pilots Chronograph 41 or 6.6-7.2k for a speedy is better than than the price/availability of a daytona...but 12K for an ingenieur? I'd rather buy a DJ, explorer 2, or add a few more K and shoot for the GMT master II or the Sky-Dweller at that point.

It looks lovely, but where is the on-the-fly adjustment for the bracelet? How is it that my JLC Gran Sport from the 1990s manages to have micro adjustment on its butterfly clasp, while IWC still can't manage it thirty years later on a watch costing three times as much?

Maybe Ingenier isn't a watch that anyone can put on their wrist. That is what the IWC is aiming for and the inevitable principle of the luxury market.

I felt the same about the Zenith Defy Skyline Skeleton. I love it and I think its fantastic. I do not think its worth 11k-12k whatever they want. I feel the same about this IWC offering, esp when I can pick up a chrono pilot for less? with the strap system?

It’s a luxury watch, it’s not to be cheap so that everybody can afford it, it’s not charity

IWC is going after the GP Laureato priced at $14300 for the steel. Folks were expecting them to go after the Cartier Santos. Different market, but priced appropriately if you consider the competition.

ETA movement? I’d rather get a GP Laureato, which has way better finishing, true in-house movement, and a see through case back.

at 8k it would have been fair. at 6k it would have been hot. pricing it at 12k was just a greedy move and hurt their brand appeal. for 12k it better have quick change strap, quick change links, half links, bracelet micro extension, and leather and rubber straps on deployant. seems like it has none of these. The steel one is more than a sub date, and the titanium is more than the new YM42 Ti. Look at the Santos pricing for comparison...

the layering on this watch and the bracelet and the history makes it a banger for me!

It’s a gorgeous watch it’s just far too expensive.

Not being received well. Most reviews have been stellar for this piece. Calling it the release of W&W 2023. Tudor options are nice. This however is an icon, and price is therefore factored into this piece due to its heritage. Time will no doubt tell!! I have one on order, so I'm sold and fully invested into this piece and backstory..

I really love this watch Shame about the price and the butterfly clasp.. Personally I would love it in 38mm But pretty good... P.s. have a watch of the feature length episode of About Effing Time... they speak to IWC CEO as well as Genta's wife. Very interesting....apparently more versions will appear... so maybe a smaller case with no guards? Would be cool

I checked the site and it said the Ingenieur has the same movement as the mark xx... one is 12,000 the other is 6,000... (titanium is close to 15k) that kind of killed it for me

Can you guys please fix that crooked picture on the wall?

IWC back to ETA for the Ingénieur ?! And for only 15'000$. Come on, will they never learn from their mistakes ????

My dear old mum had a favourite saying, "a fool and his money are soon parted". It certainly applies here.

We will see how it sells. I put my money down on one. I see a lot more in the finishing of the case and bracelet than I see on $5,000 watches. It is an in house movement. It is not an ETA. The base architecture is the ETA but it is built from scratch by a Richemont company with many IWC improvements and has some perlage and cote de Geneve. it is not a modified ETA. Slapping your logo on the rotor of a movement bought from ETA would be a modified ETA.

Great video. I also think it is too expensive (all steel, can’t see the movement, generic movement, only a date complication) but I was comparing it to a Cartier , JLC or Rolex. You have a point that some may see it as an alternative to AP or Patek but if I wanted one of those, I would think I settled for this IWC and wouldn’t make the purchase.

I think the new Ingenieur 3289's are very well done and look fantastic. I would prefer it without the crown guards, but overall the aesthetic is great and the bracelet looks incredibly comfortable. I don't see a whole lot wrong with modifying a workhorse ETA movement to be honest. Yes, the price is higher than I expected, but IWC is not alone in that (see Zenith, Chopard, etc). I think the closest alternative to the Ingenieur is the GP Laureato which runs in a similar price bracket. Across the board, these new watches are carrying big price tags. So I picked up a 2013 Ingenieur 3239 with the white dial for less than half the price!

Very curious to see what this does on the second hand and grey market...

This is a GP Laureato case and band with a different bezel.

Why is it so important for watch buffs that the movement is 100% in house? They react as if it's the end of the world if the movement isn't in house

If you want something like the Patek or AP but want something cheaper but still with big nods from watch people go buy the GP Laureato - ignore the over priced IWC

Finally an honest (thanks T+H )review on this. For me its a pity there is no micro adjustment at this price point combined with a less than spectacular movement. Watch dials and case profiles are beautiful, but I would say the steel versions shouldn’t be more than 9k VAT included. Much more interesting to consider a 80s/90s neo vintage SL or 500.000 A/m piece despite the smaller size at 34mm but they wear incredibly well. I think if any enthusiast sees this in the wild the first thought May be how did s/he manage to get convinced into buying a beautiful late-to-the-game overpriced piece! You cant include Rolex in your competitive benchmarking when setting price positioning targets!!!!

I love the new Ingenieur. It’s exactly what I wanted. But the price is ridiculous. It’s more than a Datejust. More than a new Grand Seiko which has a better movement and hand polishing at a lower price. More than an Aqua Terra, it’s just crazy town. They could have had a great Datejust alternative and instead priced themselves straight out of the market.

I really want a comparison of the 3239 and the new 3289

I think the comparison is with the GP Laureato which is $14K. IWC has a cooler back story and connection to Genta. So yeah. Sucks that I’m priced out, but such is life. A Mark XX is still rad.

Think they were more targeting the GP Laureato with this design and price point. They weren't aiming for the big dogs or the little dogs.

I love that thing! The titanium version with the inhouse movement is sick!!!

I think the point is the other way around, the mark xx with the bracelet ( which is the best bracelet I have ever seen) cost €6900 and the Ingenieur cost € 13000 with the same movement inside and a butterfly clasp. They want to go after the Ap patek market because they paid Genta a salary 50 years ago. That is not enough, the gap is too big, for a name, I think they fucked themselves, at least I will not pick my mark xx when it arrives. For me they took the last bit of magic that was left within Iwc.

Speaking about soft iron case use: amagnetic parts are still under patents now, the older ones are expiring soon but not yet, and IWC doesn't own one of those patent.

I think you hit the nail on the head, and they were likely comparing it to other high end integrated bracelet sports watches. While IWC makes great watches, this should've been 5-7k, maybe 8k in titanium. Now it just seems like they're cash grabbing because they can. The new ceramic 41mm pilot chrono they came out with is cheaper than the Ingenieur. Hublot definitely has a different reputation, but in certain circles, I'm sure the Hublot is more well received, and a full ceramic Classic Fusion is 12,500. Sartory Billard just released their integrated bracelet sports watch, and it is around 8000 euros, and fully customizable. I was excited about the watch, until I saw the price. Double a Mark XX? No thanks...

I own a 3508 steel/black dial purchased by my father from an AD in 1992 with original box/papers.. for years the value ~$3k… recently got an insurance valuation at $7k… regardless I won’t be parting with it. Just nice that it’s getting some appreciation

I'm a touch confused about the IWC strategy. The mark xx is around half the price, so okay maybe to save on cost they used a metal back there (guessing they don't have to put as much effort into the finishing? ) but to not make an exhabiton case back for that price is ridiculous. And regarding the history as far as I remember the big pilot 46 had a metal back and now the new version has an exhabiton case back. Am I missing something?

This is a gorgeous watch: I am somewhat amazed that people are upset about the price. $ 12K seems like a little, IWC watches are understated, and they don't get the props they deserve. They treat customers like customers; they are not pretentious and will let you in. So ya, this is not an overpriced watch; it is stunning; great work IWC.

I’m not sure why you say that it obviously hasn’t gone well? Everything I’ve seen indicates it is a huge hit. I’ve been waiting for this new release and have ordered the black dial and titanium models. Very cool IMO.

I'd get the original before this, not only for price but for historical value. The new one is double what it should cost... Hey I've been stacking Piaget's since before Christian was born 🎉

Also my favorite, I really do love to Wear it.

Why there is not display case back.

Patek, AP, Cartier RM and many watch makers that call their movements in house, still have a lot of parts made else where. The concept off in house not necessarily means that every part is manufacture in house, instead movement design. Also most companies team up with other houses to design specific complications or turbillions for their "In house Movements" IWC watches are underpriced in my opinion. Tons of watch for the buck and I own a few. They may not be for everyone though, especially if you are an "Instagram grail" type of collector. But having been at their factory in Schaffhausen last year and seeing the amount of work and dedication they pour to craft these master pieces and you appreciate the history, of this been once an American Company, you'll get to love them really quick.

Stunning watch, imo Iwc make the best looking watches, who cares about where and how a movement is made, I'm sure it's good enough and will easily last a lifetime.

Yeah, the mark XX at $6k vs. the Ingenieur 40 at $11k makes the latter a little too expensive. Wait for it to get into the secondary market to get 30% off list. Maybe that’s why they went nuts on the list price, they anticipated the discount. Panerai pricing is similarly inflated to account for the future discount. It’s a sign of brand weakness.

The marketing similarities of this IWC and the titanium square G-shocks are astonishing and perhaps one can learn a thing from the other. How fans where disappoited by price tags, everybody was shopping around for half the price or a significant discount either new or preowned. However they were few that swallowed that pill. Square G-shock beeing the first G-shock designed by legendary Kikuo Ibe with long history behind it and likewise Ingenieur sl being designed by legendary Gerald Genta.

If this was about 7k max I would consider it. But for 11K. NOT A CHANCE.

I agree - the market is for those who won't/can't pay the premium for an AP. I think it is priced more with Chopard Alpine Eagle and the GP Laureate

Yeah the price in this watch is really strange. While it certanly needs more work as an mark XX i thought that it would be just slightly above it. That would have been the best price and where IWC could again stand out in the market (But they didnt). I love the integrated bracelet design and what other watchmakers have done with it, but as soon someone makes something Genta made or inspired it gets +100% price tag (its like an Genta Tax). I hoped it would fight brands in the price range of Omega, Rolex, Breitling etc.

You can get the old models for 4 grand. New models for three times the price? No chance.

I’m buying one. I have the previous version the IW323904 and find the crown guards on the larger side. This new models is perfect for me. I think IWC want to place the model as a premium collection in their range and will limit production to ensure they’re hard to get. I also like a watch that is bought because you like the design and not that it’s good value, this is luxury to me. I had a black bay 58 and always felt it gave of the impression you chase value, boring like an accountant.

What about the 3239??

Really want to love it but I agree with it being too expensive. This could have been a very interesting alternative to something like the Cartier Santos if it was priced similarly, I think their ideal price should have been around 8k. Still a bit expensive but more digestible

My father in law has the Ingenieur IW322701from 2000,s let me say that his watch looks much nicer that the new version.

I have to disagree with you when you said that the Ingenieur is the perfect watch if you want to get a royal oak OR nautilus but don't want to spend that much money. I think the gp laureato chopard alpine eagle and bulgari octo finissimo are all way better options than the Ingenieur for the same price OR even less

Great breakdown, I like your solo videos.

cons: The prices , movement pros: you can get a Gérald Genta watch straight from a BT without spending much or doing a background check like AP and PP.

Yeah, that's not a 12K watch. It's just riding the price inflation from the alternatives without following through on a more premium movement, etc. Piaget Polo S looks quite a lot better in all kinds of ways. I'll be curious to see GM and pre-owned pricing. My bet is it takes quite a heavy fall there. This is an example of something I really don't want to see...flex culture inflation on Rolex, AP, Patek, pulling up pricing on other brands which otherwise could be perfect for enthusiasts. Ugh. Great video as always and yeah...

What about the Chopard Alpine Eagle for 13,400?

Great review Michael and well positioned. I’m a fan of IWC, but not at that price. It feels insulting that this watch isn’t aimed most IWC admirers (6-8k) and, like you say, is really aimed at the higher end Genta fans who aren’t necessarily IWC fans, they just don’t wanna pay RO or Nautilus prices or play their waiting game. Another point is that the Ingenieur will be far more readily available than either of those. I feel like IWC has shunned its core base, who would love to buy a new Ingenieur at a reasonable price point (6-8k), in favour of Genta fans. Maybe it’s a production capacity issue at Schaffhausen?

like them using the metal cage. shame they phased them out in the flieger chronos

I think the only way this is going to sell at that price point is if the fit and finish makes up for the "lackluster" movement which is hidden behind a faraday cage. I'm probably the target audience for this watch (I have been in the market for an integrated bracelet sports watch, am a sucker for the horological nostalgia/history, but can't justify the cost/flex of an AP or Patek). With that said, I would probably buy a 38mm GP Laureato over this at that price instead, as seeing a nicer finished ultrathin movement through the caseback helps me justify spending $10k plus OR I'd buy something like a Cartier Santos which has potentially even more history but comes in at a more reasonable price with a similar quality movement.

I think the bezel locking system is the reason for most of the price hike. IWC want a return on developing special tooling. 4K price increase on what should be a 6-7k watch so you can have symmetry with the bezel locking points.

I think the Ingeneur with its soft iron cage should be cross shopped with the outgoing milgaus. I have waited for this genta version remodel of this reference. Hard to imagine now that I would choose this over my Z blue at the Ingeneurs price. But I have to see it person I guess. I had hoped they would relaunch the model in yellow gold first like the 222 of VC to really make it more of a luxury piece then launch a volume steel version when they had properly estimated the market demand for the model. Beautiful watch anyway and I hope it does well for the brand which trying to go upmarket which is the only way to thrive in the luxury watch business.

Such an amazing iconic watch. Cant wait to see one. Best release of W&W23 hands down!

First. Explorer 40mm best w&w release!

The new 40mm Rolex Explorer is a bargain compared to this IWC and at least has an adjustable bracelet, highly accurate in house movement …

Another Genta designed watch at a similar price point would be the Bulgari Octo Finissimo. However, for the price you get a real and beautifully made in-house movement that held the record for being the thinnest automatic movement in the world (a record broken later by Bulgari itself).

It's not exactly that difficult to realize why they're so controversial. They have a off-the-shelf movement and are about double the price of what they should cost. These watches are supposed to be for engineers but there really isn't anything in them that screams this is an engineer's watch. Instead they're kind of dainty sports watches that don't really have an identity. What also blows my mind about this watch is that IWC knows that it's over priced; when they made the announcement they deliberately said that this would have a somewhat limited supply. In other words they're trying to control the supply to artificially inflate the cost and it seems like it backfired pretty hard. I could buy a zenith defy; classic, skyline or the revival for much less and it fills the same niche of being an integrated bracelet sports watch. Or I could go to Grand Seiko and get any number of their amazing watches for a fraction of the price of this thing. I could even go over to JLC and get some really nice master control watches for cheaper than this thing. Then there are all the other integrated bracelet watches like GP and even B&M. I'm just not really sure who this watch is supposed to be for. Your friend seems to be a hardcore fan, or at least he's a fan enough to have been looking at these models for a while and yet he can't justify this price either. This is not for a watch enthusiast, this is for some random rich guy who happens to walk into the store and decides not to buy a Rolex. It just seems like I really big miss, I know a lot of people who would love this watch at half the price, myself included. Generally, I like IWC but I feel like this is pretty tone deaf; it's not a competitor to the Nautilus or the Royal oak. It might be a genta designed watch but frankly, it doesn't have the same cache as those other genta watches. And look at how many integrated bracelet genta-inspired watches are out there these days, you mentioned Hublot but there are others in that same price range and others which are much cheaper, not to mention the Omega constellation which is also a genta watch but at half the price (and with more advanced tech).

The great thing about any (expensive) unnecessary product is that you don't have to buy it. You are welcome :)

It isn’t an ETA movement this was disproven recently, rather an in-Richmond movement as you said. I just wished they had a new movement for it if they were pushing at this price.

Personally think it’s a beautiful watch ( with or without the crown guards). Overall design I think is great and I like the dial color options. Only downside is the price. They took a watch that was made for the common man and made it hard to justify purchasing it. I was wanting one of these until I heard the price point.

That price point makes it where the only thing desirable in that line is the titanium. Wish the SS was closer to $6-7k and the titanium at $10k I’ll be waiting for them to hit the resale market before purchasing as I see them dropping in value bc they are so expensive at retail.

6200 for a mk 20 is not a good price. What does it offer the mk18 didn't for 2k less?

I wish it was cheaper but at the same time I think they priced it right, goes up against the Laureato. In terms of movement, I'd be pretty surprised if they were using ETA as they are Swatch. Would guess that it's ValFleurier based. These days that's as "in house" as I would expect. Why waste money on further dev when your groups has it's own movement maker.

The most obvious less expensive alternative to the PP Nautilus and the AP Royal Oak would be the GP Laureato. However, if the new Ingenieur had been priced more reasonably, I would have it bought instantly (as soon as available).

If you want a royal oak or nautilus alternative at lower prices, why spend 12k when u can get a tissot prx for 500. Go spend the other 11,500 on something else.

Hey Michael, I know you only look at comments a couple times after your video.. So, a year later is just outside the norm haha.. Anyway, a year later and you are still on point.. This may be overpriced based on its components.. But as an alternative to a Royal Oak or Nautilus it is appropriately priced and a great buy for a collection.. Take care 😊

Lovely watch, really like it but the price just leaves a sour taste.

I can see the thinking behind being half the price or so of a Royal Oak etc, but the price is truly too much of a shock to the system. I would much rather buy a Zenith Skyline for similar style (not designed by Genta I know) and enjoy the open case back, the mad small seconds window and interchangeable bracelet system and have money to spare to buy a Tudor. And I see Zenith and IWC to be on par nowadays with each other (only my opinion of course). I wish I can convince myself to buy the IWC, apart from the price, it is everything I want an update of that range to be. This maybe why the backlash is so bad, because they mostly have made a product people want, but won’t pay the asking price.

The Mark XX with the same movement is 6k.

Very well said. It’s a great alternative to the other Genta designs. Genta adds tremendous value to the watch. It’s a $12k watch and you can either afford it or not. It’s not there to please you at a lower price and undervalue itself.

As you say, at 7 or 8K, it's a deal. 12K for a modified ETA movement? No thanks.

More Michael only videos 😝

I love this watch but the price is too high as mentioned. I’d get an Octo Finissimo before this or just get another Rolex. At 8k usd. Perfection though

Funny that you can buy a IWC Pilot's 41 with a brand new, in-house, column wheel, flyback chronograph movement for $7,000 retail or even the Mrk XX with an great new in-house movement for $5000, but if you buy the Ingenieur you get a modified ETA for a 3 hand complication, you have to pay $4,000/$6000 extra which I assume must be for the bracelet. That's some expensive bracelet.

It’s so awesome, it’s pretty much perfect - except the price like what the heck