my man missed the whole point of the ending. Jin is the better traditional swordsman, but Mugen invented his own style and is great at adapting. Mugen would have lost to Karya, but Jin would have lost to the crazy guys. And not to mention the symbolism of them breaking their blades and falling together to make the Yin Yang symbol showing how close and complementary they are as fighters. Different but equals; chaos and calmness, two states of being.
Bro I love you lolol. That is ACTUALLY what it is. jean my guy But cannot take on on the wild fighters. Let alone the staff girl who toyed with him but Mugen ALMOST defeated. ACTUALLY TO be honest very strong possibility that mugen might have a slight edge bcuz he is definitely a better at adapting and may even use that lil dagger the way we seen him do before. But 👌🏽👌🏽both dudes are great
The assassin jin fought in the woods with the happy demeanour would flood the blind lady . Jin is more effective on flat open spaces . I would even go as far as saying the assassin paid to kill jin in the woods is better then kariya
I think it's interesting how these two rubbed off on eachother, Jin beating Kariya with an unorthodox move, and Mugen having to use his head to hit the scythe user with his own weapon.
The careless one became careful and the careful one became careless literally the yin and yang moment in the show they became like each other to defeat a powerful enemy.
@@edgargross2789 Do you like this over Bebop? Personally, I do. It might be from seeing it before Bebop but I think it more than that. They really perfected their formula with Champloo, imo
@@dwilliams380 Absolutely. Bebop is mostly “check out how cool Spike is”. The other characters are also more like his cheerleaders, whereas in Champloo the trio’s relationship and dynamics is what carries the series. Lots of character and the soundtrack blows Bebop out of the water
@@edgargross2789the characters in bebop are definitely not "Spikes cheerleaders" Jet and Faye have like 3 different episodes solely for their development and Fayes character arc and story is genuinely one of my favorites in anime. I agree from a headbopping-put a song in my playlist standpoint that Champloos soundtrack is better(i will always love champloo for introducing me to Nujabes), but I think bebops ost ties better into its narrative and emotional moments. Love both shows but couldn't tolerate this bebop slander 😤
Even Jin says it in one episode. He doesnt know why he couldnt strike Mugen. Yes he was able to defeat Kariya but that doesnt mean he could defeat Mugen. Better swordsman? Perhaps. But Jin and Mugen is one battle that would go on forever because there is no intent to kill from either one. That energy between them puts them both in a stalemate. And theyre ok with that.
To be fair, Mugen couldn’t even lay one hit on Kariya during their first encounter with him. Jin was able to hold his own against Kariya much better than Mugen.
@@davy209 Different opponent. Not every fighter is the same as the one you fought previously. Different rules, different fighting style, mindset, tendencies, etc. Jin was also unable to beat the Assassin in the beginning and the Blind Assassin near the end point of the story. Does that make Mugen better by this logic if he killed them hypothetically? No. He would still have to face Jin who is aware of Mugen's moves. Hand of God was the best opponent they faced, but in the end Jin still stalemates with Mugen at the end and defeats the purpose of that argument.
Styles make fights. You got Musashi who was described as an abrasive brute who beat one of the greatest swordsman of all time (Sasaki Kojiro). Jin and Mugen are portrayed as equals with each having a different set of skills they use to get the job done.
i was gonna say, why fight over this when it’s established in the first episode they have completely different fighting styles but are around equal in strength.
Styles different but Jin is more skilled, better experience, and better intellect. There is a reason why Kariya and Sara(the 2 best fighters in the show) showed absolute control/low effort vs. Mugen, but struggled and had to put in full effort vs Jin. Even when Sara had a strong advantage vs Jin by bringing him to a rope bridge to fight. The only struggle Jin has is adaptability but we see from his fights that the only struggle is how long it takes him to adapt to a new form of fighting not that he can't adapt. If Mugen and Jin were to fight on even ground with no obstacles in the way(like the store fight) then Jin would beat Mugen in the long run.
He is a better technical fighter but isn't as good with adaptation. He lost quickly to Sara and i doubt he would have been able to handle the other two that went after Mugen in the same way. He seems to struggle in situations where he has to think unorthodox because he has a sword to sword mindset that was forged in a dojo, against sword opponents he can handle it but once unique fighting styles come up he struggles. I argue the reason he handles Mugen so well as a fighter is because at the end of the day Mugen is a swordsman with an unusual moveset but he doesn't fight with technical skill it is all down to instinct. Jin is the exact opposite where he seems to lack innovation to move beyond his sword techniques.
Sara was really only because she lured him on to the bridge and she had a spear so the narrow space plus longer weapon gave her the ultimate advantage. If they were in an open space it could’ve gone down much different and same with if Mugen was on the bridge instead
@@josephstalin2606h idk when Jin went up against that assassin inuyama and they were fighting in the bamboo forest he even stated to jin that Jin could probably beat him if they were in a dojo. So yeah Jin is definitely stuck in a dojo fighting mindset and struggles with unique fighters and situations
That technique actually has a long history in stories. Just as one example from.revent years, in the Wheel of Time book series it was the final lesson Lan taught Rand about how to fight with a sword. He called the form "Sheathing the Sword", and said it was a technique you used only when you needed to make sure your enemy died. Its a fairly simple trick...... Sheath their sword in your own flesh to buy one true strike.
they are equals, they cancel eachother out if that makes sense. they are portrayed as equals and opposites from the beginning. and the fight with kariya doesnt change anything it just shows that jins technic with the sword is crazy. he is a pure samurai who has formal and proper training. mugen is a crazy mf who is self taught and has crazy adaptability and body control. this fight would be a draw bc the author portrayed them as equals who are the opposites of each other. shit isnt a debate anymore.
Fr. Jin was goated in formal settings where he's fighting orthodox fighters. He had issues all series with people who were better at improvisation and were tougher to predict. Mugen is pure chaos by design. He lokes to end fights quickly and decisively by coming at opponents with awkward rhythm and from goofy angles. If anything, Mugen is a master at defeating people who don't take him seriously. You give Mugen enough time one on one, eventually he's going to find an opening you just didn't think was possible. The way Kariya ended up getting killed is probably the exact same way Mugen would've figured out to kill him. To me, that was kinda the whole point of the final fights. Both warriors had to acknowledge that the other's style had merit
Jin and Mugen are polar opposites, but equal. That's why one wasn't able to beat the other. And Jin used a move that would take your opponent down with you that's reserved for when "you have no hope of victory". He just luckily survived. So I'd say both Mugen and Jin are tied for 3rd cause they weren't beating the blind warrior Sara either (she let Mugen win).
Come on bro. You can’t just spew out something like that without any explanation. What’s your opinion and why do you believe in your opinion is all we need
@@Woter_X Personally, judging their skill based off of a fight that had the /narrative motive/ to give us a last moment classic Samurai moment tied to some minor but shallow character development for Jin, is is to be willing to think the two were never actually of the same caliber despite every direct confrontation leading to a stalemate. The Hand of God defeated Mugen but Mugen going on to run the fade with 3 maniacs with super unconventional warfare that would probably edging out a disciplined samurai was supposed to be a juxtaposition. Opposites but equal.
@@Woter_XWell from a writing viewpoint, the show uses these characters to discuss technique, freestyle self taught vs classical academy training, they use swordsmen but it could be anything, musicians, artists etc (the show inserts artists/artisans/musicians/athletes as side characters to show how sword aren't the point, but the pursuit of technique) and the idea is that both paths can lead to mastery, just like both paths can lead nowhere if the trainee isn't dedicated enough. Samurai Shamploo has little interest in shonen power scaling, it's more about style, and understanding that each style has strengths and weaknesses, thats why the person who made this short didn't "get" what the writing was about, thats why Mugen and Jin dont fight in the end, they literally break each other's sword, the metaphor for recognizing each path as equal
@@Woter_X I'd say neither fighter won against Kariya really. Jhin could only beat Kariya by sacrificing himself in the process. I think if Mugen tried he could do the same thing.
Nah, he only won because he allowed himself to be hit, which is an insane risk. Mugen could've done the same thing with basically the same 50/50 odds of living. We honestly don't know who would've won 1v1 between Mugen & Jin. In any case to say "it isn't even close" is just false.
If mugen continued with chi he would be a much more capable fighter, and he was definitely capable. But I don’t think he thought it fit his fighting style so he stopped using it.
Mugen way of fighting is unpredictable which would make even seasoned swordsmen like Jin drop their guard often leading to their death. Where as Jin has mastered the way of the sword n his skills as a samurai are not to be taken lightly. Both men have their own way of fighting. One is precise and deathly while the other is unpredictable and unhinged.
Mugen utilizes the environment much better than Jin. In their first encounter Mugen is bouncing off the walls, throwing things, kicking sand, etc The hitman that was sent to kill Jin even mentions "this isn't the dojo where you trained, I have the advantage here" as he deliberately leads him to the Jungle to use the environment against him In my opinion Mugen wins indoors & Jin wins in an open field, and they are both smart enough to retreat to the area they know they have the advantage in, so the fight always results in a stalemate
Yeah because Mugen really threw off jin a lot in they're first encounter and that's why I say there's no other samurai like Mugen, and that's what shocked jin
U missed the point of the show…mugen last fight he had to use precision and Jin last fight he had to use something unpredictable…it’s just showing neither of them are better then the other just suited for different fighting circumstances…Jin is more of a dojo fighter while mugen is a street brawler
I'm pretty sure Mugen admitted it at the end he says "usually when I find someone stronger than me I just want to kill them but for some reason I don't feel like killing you" this was said to jin
@@michaelgraham9774 I think it was more of how he found an equal and also someone he could call a friend. There was a respect there that wasn't before. Imo...
The thing is you guys are looking at it as power levels and thats not how it works.... its more reliant on styles.... its like in boxing..... one fighter could beat one fighters style but maybe could struggle against another fighters style.... kinda like rock, paper, scissors. One will one, while the other one could beat the one that could beat him.... if Jin could beat mugen he would have killed him in episode 1
Magen is more disciplined than people give him credit for. The man is crazy strong and he has natural, innate talent. He literally got chi powers during the series. It's clear Mugen is supposed to represent individuals who are born talented out of the womb, with active experience closing the gaps that formal training would.
Right they are definitely equals, Jin is used to fighting in a dojo. It was already proved he couldn’t fight as accurate in closed spaces on the second episode by that 1 old samurai Jim actually didn’t beat. So I feel like depending on the setting of where they are fighting it could go hand and hand, they are equals
@@ItsSake nah I don’t consider that final exchange where their swords break a fight. But we see multiple times where they try to fight eachother but neither or them lands a significant blow on the other. Because of this Imo I don’t think they ever truly wanted to kill eachother ya know?
Mugen usually makes up for his lack of skill with his wit and cunning. However they wouldn't work against a true master like Kariya. Unlike Jin, Hand of God already has immense combat experience and sees right through the tricks. The whole point is you can't cheap cheat through Kariya, and one way or another you have to have actuall sharp skill to defeat him. Jin would've never been able to bait him if not for the high level swordsmanship.
Jin is fighting against his own style. Jin never beats mugan and couldn't. It will never be settled because is perfect form vs ultimate adaptability. That's what made them a perfect pair.
That's not fair. Jin knew the technique. Jin was watching the fighting style the guy used and was like, "I would like to go against someone who that technique/Hand of God." I just rewatched the fight; Especially when you realize and figured out who the unknown person was. I'd rather you use a different scenario please.
@@Woter_X Yes, but trained by his master who who taught him secret technique, that only Jin could use to kill the Hand of God samurai because he had no other skill to win against him. Doesn't stop us from acknowledging that Jin still got beat in the beginning, even having the knowledge of the God of hand. So your invalid.
We can't be sure he is the best fighter we have seen until this point, the assassin who gave up because his payer died might have been better. Plus Sara.
Their color choice is the most deadest give away that Mugen is classified as the rage of a swordsman and gene (in the manga) is the calmness of a swordsman. Showcasing the power gauges of the 2 types, gene is more poised and doesn't give off most of his attacks while Mugen would full on display his attacks out of randomness.
I think people vastly underestimate Mugen, guy learned a supernatural sword ability that is unblockable in a few nights. He also learned writing to some extent and graffiti, he seems to be a savant at anything he does tbh. But it is that freedom that also makes him unwilling to grind an individual skill to its perfection. As others have said Jin on a technical level is a better swordsman due to the insane devotion he gives to that individual skill, but ironically Mugen is the more well rounded individual which means he can lean onto other means to even the ground.
Blud forgot that Jin's weaknesses throughout the series is unpredictability, and unpredictability is Mugen whole schtick. Kariya exposes both of the protagonist strength and weakness. That's the whole point of the fight between the hand of god.
Always thought that last fight when jin was a great culmination of events . To Mugen being more unpredictable and Jin being more structured. They butt heads the way they do . But the last fights they have …. Jin has to do something that is even tho it falls in line with his structure of him learning it before hand is a unexpected unconventional move . Kind of likewise with Mugen and his big fight . Pressure is high and his unpredictability keeps him elusive enough but he has to be more strategic and think moves ahead for the final blows even tho it is also like in his character to have all of his faith in a Hail Mary it works or doesn’t kinda move . I love this anime so much ❤❤
I will say, in general, you can never rely on "if Guy A beats Guy B, and Guy B can beat Guy C, then Guy A can beat Guy C." That's often not the case at the higher levels of competition. First example that comes to mind is the era of the three kings in the Melee scene. M2K, Korean DJ, and PC Chris were like rock paper scissors, constantly cycling as the #1 player. You also see this sort of thing pretty often in the UFC. Not always, but often enough.
It's like rock paper scissors, Jin beats all traditional Samurai, traditional Samurai can beat Mugen, but Mugen can beat Jin cuz Mugen always surprises Jin.
If we knew more about Mugen then we could make a ruling. We know jin soent his early years in a dojo. Maybe the school of hard knocks used to have katana as some basic curriculum, but thats talent and persistence versus refined skill and patience. Maybe i don't really understand the characters, but i love the show.
im getting huge vibes that you just watched the ending of samurai champloo and rushed over here without really soaking in everything that had been done and said with those two characters.
It's like rock, paper, scissors. Just because rock defeats scissors does not mean it also defeats paper. The difference in skillsets has different effects against different opponents. Some people Jin struggles to fight Mugen has no problem with, and vice versa, but against each other they're evenly matched.
I think theyre supposed to be perfect equals. If that were not the case one of them would have killed the other in their first skirmish, then there would be no show. Towards the end there’s a scene where some character says that a certain symbol represents the sun and the moon. I think that can represent Jin and Mugen, two different samurai in character and style, yet they each balance eachother out
Jin has always been my favorite. This fight really showcased Jin's training to its max. Mugen is innately talented, but both the Hand of God and Jin operate on different levels of honing their craft.
It’s the classic heart vs mind debate. It happens in real competition all the time. I think the intent is they’re perfect foils for each other, a Yin and Yang of sorts. Jin is likely a more technical fighter, but Mugen has wild card energy that makes him impossible to count out.
I think what matters is also how serious mugen is, we saw twice he learned and adapted new techniques to finish his enemies who had a real chance of outright killing both him and Jin easily. If he puts thought into it i still think it would end up being equal if not slightly Mugen sided cause he learned that monk air slash technique
I feel one thing that is missed in shows that is very applicable to reach life is “styles make fights” When you get to the top level Fighter A may beat B while B beats C and somehow C beats A.
It's like chess. Some samurai are better equipped to exploit the weaknesses of others. To say that Jin is better based off the showing of swordsmanship against one enemy is not sufficient enough ground to make such a statement. Evidence of this can be seen when Mugen and Jin fought each other, each unable to kill the other.
You’ve missed the entire point of these characters. Jin criticized Mugen in an episode stating that he had horrible swordsmanship, he lacked discipline and had horrible form… Yet couldn’t beat him. Anyone who’s a fan of fighting sports understands that styles make fights. Some guys struggle with one style over others. Mugen and Jin represent Yin and Yang. They’re are opposite of each other in almost all ways and the series does a great job of juxtaposing the characters and their growth. Mugen and Jin are opposite in swordsmanship but equal in their craft and dedication. That is why they stalemate each other in battle. Another fun fact is the creator took Spike from cowboy Bepop and split his personality into 2 to create Mugen and Jin
Anyone who's trained a full contact martial art will tell you that there are A LOT of levels to combat. The more technically skilled fighter doesn't always win against a much less technically skilled fighter, especially not if (s)he isn't as aggressive or if (s)he can't adapt.
I think Mugen fails against Kariya because in a sense, Kariya is a combination of them both. He has Jin's technical skill and composure, as well as Mugen's bloodlust, along with an unconventional fighting style and techniques. Jin was able to last longer since he is better honed for classical duals, and Kariya was feeling him out, and enjoying himself. It seems that their final fights draw parallels, and end with them on equal ground, both learning to take a page from each other's playbooks.
The show makes a point of pointing out that they are equals several times, power scaling them defeats the purpose that they are equals who respect each other for their strengths, not in spite of but because of their differences
The ending: Jin use unpredictable move, which is Mugen's forte. Mugen use precision move, which is Jin's forte. Its yin and yang. They both equal. They know each other for far too long to understand each weakness.
A chemist might know much more than a baker without being able to bake, even though chemistry and baking are essentially the same thing. This show was never about who's better and comparing these two character's skills is a great disservice to their friendship. If Jin was better than Mugen, Mugen would be dead.
Remember, Jin underestimated Mugen in the beginning. He explains in the first episode that though Mugen was not a disciplined and traditional fighter, he was the only one Jin couldn't beat. Mugen is exactly what Jin can't quite solve and Jin is what Mugen can't quite solve. They end up with a tie in the end, showing evidence by the show's creators that they cancel each other out. They taught each other by observation how to fight a tad differently than they are used to and overcome their weaknesses in combat. Hand of God was impressive and sure, Jin beats him, but not by much. People acted like Jin destroyed him but it took a flashback lesson to overcome this threat. Mugen also fought a blind assassin who, btw minced Jin at the bridge, beat a giant while at 20%, a man who used some type of jedi force push shit, etc. Is Mugen better than Jin because he overcame those obstacles? No. That is the point of their Yin and Yang aspect. Hand of God, Blind Assassin, it makes no difference. Those people aren't the same as when they fight each other, it is different with every fighter. You will always meet your match one day, it is part of life that you meet a better or equal opponent and that is what they are to each other.
I think this dude missed the symbolism behind why Jin had to use the move against Karya and how Mugen had to think ahead and hit that dude with his scythe while both sacrificing life and limb to help Fuu find her father. Jin is calm in the wind, while Mugen is an infinate Typhoon and considering Jin's one Injury was a a narrow escape from death, Mugan got his arm broken, Took a blade to the hand to finish of the ugly guy, got shot by the dude in the wheel chair, and he tanked a fucking explosion. So in the end in their own way they deserve credit but my man Mugan took some nasty licks in the end and Jin had to intentionally gamble and hope that he could escape death a second time with Karya only being caught off guard against such an attack. Their equals in their own way and I'd even wager that their stronger in both fighting prowess and in the bond they share.
Been wanting to give my opinions on this for too long but I must say its kinda sad people only see what's infront of them. I would say that Jin is the better swordsman but isn't close? What?? I personally believe at the beginning of the show Mugen would kill Jin had they finished their first fight or got another chance but at the end of the show I see Jin killing Mugen but it would be close. Through out the show there contrast couldn't be more perfectly displayed. In the intro Like the cock he is brash, erratic, aggressive and unruly while Jin is collected, calm, disciplined and in control. This represents there fighting styles to a tee. Jin was trained by a master in a dojo Mugen was a pirate i think it's clear who has more raw talent. If we pay close attention to Mugen he kinda casually plays around with some of his opponents having such a lust for combat while Jin doesn't fuck around at all which I believe is his biggest advantage over Mugen. If Mugen did exactly what Kariya said he should combined with his natural ability he would be unstoppable but he doesn't really care. We see this perfectly in the episode with Shoryu, he didn't take the old man's advice ,we saw his training routine yet he was able pull off a chi attack having one previous encounter with shoryu by just immitating him and managed to kill him might I add in similar fashion to how Jin killed Kariya. People are quick to pass over Mugen vs Kariya cause how "clumsy" he might have looked but i think he did rather well with all things considered. Mugen stepped up to the man with his instincts and reflexes and his experience as a pirate and the fact is Kariya couldn't cut Mugen when he wanted. Jin did as good as he did against Kariya because they come from the same style of swordsmanship the Mujushin kenjutsu. The fights that truly show Jin is better than Mugen in his skill as a swordsman were they’re duels against Sarah. Jin LITERALLY had sarah on the ropes couple times in their short battle and had her backing up and she didn't use a sword. Mugen fought Sarah twice and I didn't really see an instance Sarah was genuinely in danger. Sarah seemed like an opponent more suitable for Mugen yet I thought Jin did better. It showed Jin's progress through out the show and it helps that Jin is way more serious when it comes to fighting and improving while Mugen is just content and goes with the flow. Its also to be noted how well they're character illustrates what the other is lacking. There's a reason Jin cannot catch fish and Mugen can. Jin is often too rigid and stiff. It shown in the little details like when he couldn't even hold onto the eel in episode 11 If he can allow some of Mugen's care free demeanor into his spirit and go with the flow~ he would be able to catch fish and stand a much better chance of besting Sarah and if Mugen would allow some discipline and dedication into his spirit and actually learning martial arts he could most likely have been able to beat kariya with just his skills.
I thought so to at first but that assassin had similar training to Jin, meaning he knew Jin's master. Not to mention Mugan fought opponents like the samurai killer, the blind woman, & survived the fight against the guys that kidnapped fuu, without a weapon. Overall I don't think one is better than the other. I just think there styles of fighting along with personalities are different. Jin is more intelligent & Mugan has a break dancing style that's unpredictable to most.
I honestly can't entirely agree as at the beginning Mugen wasn't being hit either but I couldn't hit him. Jin and the guy had a more showy fight since they were more similar in their discipline. At the show's end, Mugen fought someone also crazy and unpredictable. The only way Jin won, however,, was due to that unpredictability, which was taught by spending time with Mugen. Whereas Mugen won against that crazy guy due to the discipline that he learned from Jin. A form of sweet juxtaposition and why I love this anime, plus the music of course lol
